LCA News and Discussions

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khukri
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby khukri » 26 Feb 2011 17:25

Aditya_V wrote:


Khukri, some simple research before critizing Vina, Gripen C/D has not been offered by SAAB for MMRCA but Gripen NG which is still not in production. Infact, there was a complaint that Gripen NG was not sent for some of the Trials but only Gripen C/D. Now why would SAAB do that?? BECAUSE Gripen C/D does not meet the ASR requirements for MMRCA but only Gripen NG can.

So Vina's contention that Gripen C/D would not meet ASR requirements for LCA still holds.


In order for that argument to hold, perhaps you can point out what the ASR's were, and if as Rahul indicates they have evolved, what they are, and how the Gripen C/D does not meet them?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Feb 2011 17:31

khukri wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:


Khukri, some simple research before critizing Vina, Gripen C/D has not been offered by SAAB for MMRCA but Gripen NG which is still not in production. Infact, there was a complaint that Gripen NG was not sent for some of the Trials but only Gripen C/D. Now why would SAAB do that?? BECAUSE Gripen C/D does not meet the ASR requirements for MMRCA but only Gripen NG can.

So Vina's contention that Gripen C/D would not meet ASR requirements for LCA still holds.


In order for that argument to hold, perhaps you can point out what the ASR's were, and if as Rahul indicates they have evolved, what they are, and how the Gripen C/D does not meet them?


Yes but your argument stating that Gripen C/D meets MMRCA ASR requirements hence will definately meet LCA ASR requirements is clearly incorrect, since Gripen C/D does not meet the MMRCA requirements.

to refresh this is what you had stated as response to Vina's post

vina wrote:

For those who ask, well, how does the Gripen C /D have no "issues" with a lesser powered engine while the LCA seems to have "issues".

Well, that assumes that the SwAF requirements are the same as the IAF ASR ? It is highly probable that the IAF ASRs are much tougher than the Swedish ones for the Gripen C/D ! My bet is that the Gripen C/D as it is currently wont meet the IAF ASR for the LCA as well. It simply can't (especially with take off length in Indian summers and all that, given the lower T:W ratio and the take off length does not need the full AoA etc).

Khukri in response wrote

Its hardly likely that the ASR's for the LCA, which were presumably established early in its development cycle and therefore several years before the MRCA requirements were specified, were more stringent than the MRCA requirements? That seems to fly in the face of logic - but hey, maybe in lahore that logic rocks!


Yes as to what are the LCA ASR requirements are and what were SWAF ASR requirements where that is anther matter which is not in Public Domain, but what Vina stated is definately Plausible, with similair Weight, same engine if the IAF wants LCA to have a more powerful engine but SWAF is fine with it, the ASR requirements of IAF could be Higher? Again the operative word is could?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 26 Feb 2011 19:21

khukri wrote:
Rahul M wrote:khukri ji, LCA ASR has not stayed still. the LCA today is not the same one that was envisaged back in 80's.

Well Rahul, the implication of that argument is that the evolving ASR's for the LCA have been set at a higher level than those for the MRCA, which is supposed to be an aircraft for the future, and that would seem to absurd?

sorry I don't see how there is any such peculiar leap in logic. If I say I'm more intelligent than I was in the 80's, it does not imply that I'm more intelligent than einstein.

what vina ji said was that gripen C/D might not satisfy LCA ASR, he said nothing about MRCA.

now, please keep in mind that
>> gripen C/D is not a MRCA contender, gripen NG is
>> the MRCA entry bar has been kept quite low which allows all the fighters to easily pass it. this has been commented upon time and again. in fact, AFAIK MRCA entry requirements are much less specific than LCA ASR, understandable since the IAF would prefer to push the birds to their limit and check which is the best.
>> aircraft for the future etc rhetorical argument is a little meaningless, MRCA is a number filler program that has gone on and turned itself into a circus. LCA and MRCA are being inducted around the same time, a little earlier for LCA in fact. so how is the MRCA "aircraft for the future" while LCA is not and why would IAF accept anything in the LCA that is not future-proof ?

qualitatively, perhaps other than in range/payload, the MRCA requirements are comparable to the other 4gen fighters IAF operates, including the LCA. LCA Mk2 will definitely be comparable to the lightest of the MRCA contenders, the gripen NG.

Perhaps you can illustrate how these ASR's have evolved, I.e. What the previous ASR was and what the now evolved one is?

well since the ASR's haven't been released to the public, what we can do is piece together the changes in LCA Mk1 from what was originally envisaged to get a rudimentary idea. that ranges from carrying newer CCMs to OBOGs and internal EW suite. go through the last few pages of this thread and you'll get more details. I might have done it for some more polite individual but someone who comes to an argument thinking he knows everything there is to know should be allowed a chance for due diligence, don't you think ? :wink:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nits » 26 Feb 2011 21:32

MOD to HAL: Build Tejas Mk.2 With Export In Mind


India's Department of Defence Production has asked agencies developing the Mk.2 version of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft to plan ahead to position the aircraft for export. HAL is understood to have been asked to conduct a study assessing interest in the light fighter. A previous study, conducted by DRDO in 2005, made no specific observations except to say that the aircraft had "elicited international interest and could be positioned as an export item on the lines of the Advanced Light Helicopter".


Thats a futuristic approach for a change... :!:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Baldev » 26 Feb 2011 22:14

nits wrote:MOD to HAL: Build Tejas Mk.2 With Export In Mind


India's Department of Defence Production has asked agencies developing the Mk.2 version of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft to plan ahead to position the aircraft for export. HAL is understood to have been asked to conduct a study assessing interest in the light fighter. A previous study, conducted by DRDO in 2005, made no specific observations except to say that the aircraft had "elicited international interest and could be positioned as an export item on the lines of the Advanced Light Helicopter".


Thats a futuristic approach for a change... :!:
for export there should be alternate engine as well ej2000 ,US may refuse to sell f414 with LCA

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 26 Feb 2011 22:15

an export version on Kaveri should be explored.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby RamaY » 26 Feb 2011 22:20

For export versions, we must be looking at 2017-2020 time frame.

I hope they fine tune Kaveri by that time (5 yrs) and establish necessary alliances.

As mentioned elsewhere, India should start thinking about developing alliances in ASEAN, SAARC, and AFRICA. 3-5 nations in each group as strategic partners in - defense, knowledge management, renewable economy, and trade.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 26 Feb 2011 22:51

For export they first need to get a no-objection and export rights from all the companies whose systems are being imported for TejasMk2, once they get that they can plan to export it.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 26 Feb 2011 23:42

Photo of Tejas with In-Flight Refuelling Probe from Tejas booklet
Image

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... LCA+Tejas/

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 27 Feb 2011 00:43

Kakarat wrote:Photo of Tejas with In-Flight Refuelling Probe from Tejas booklet
Image

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... LCA+Tejas/


You made my day/week/month sir :)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby rakeshkumar » 27 Feb 2011 00:56

ohhh my god i felt really happy after seeing that picture , thanks a lot :-o

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 27 Feb 2011 01:49

cool. there were talks about cobham retractable something on the line of mig-35 types? any news on that?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 27 Feb 2011 06:48

Image


Troves of info ...
Tejas Booklet

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 27 Feb 2011 07:11

Srai, Muh me ghee shakkar! Scan 6 takes care of my questions. Scan 11 Vina can comment on the second order deflection.
In my college days there was book "Aeroelasticty" by Blispingoff, considered the classic in those days. That slide reminds me of the diagrams in that book.


Srai, When the LCA releases an LGB how far away is it?
~11km?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 27 Feb 2011 07:46

kakarat, yug yug jio boss !

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nashCS » 27 Feb 2011 07:47

Doesn't the air intake profile look reworked to blend in in scan six ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 27 Feb 2011 07:59

Has the centerline hard point been tested yet? So far, I haven't seen of any weapon/drop tank being carried on the center line hard point.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 27 Feb 2011 08:07

the retractable probe will come in Mk2. in Mk1 it will be fixed M2K style.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 27 Feb 2011 08:08

there has been one floating around in the pics released during AI-2011. someone posted it during a discussion I had with sancho but I don't remember which thread. :-?

nashCS, blend in with what ? it looks like any other LCA front profile to me.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nashCS » 27 Feb 2011 08:36

Rahul,
the intake in the scan does look reshaped along its top and side profile and flatter towards centerline. Think it looks larger too. It could just be my perception or a reworked graphic illustration.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 27 Feb 2011 08:54

no, in an article last year they mentioned cobham would also work with existing mk1 model for retractable iirc.

something on jassof's line of thought.

---
PS: here it is:-
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... Name=India
about retrofitting a retractable refueling probe on the current model of the Light Combat Aircraft as well as the Mk2 version.

may be refit later since:
“We will develop and design a retractable refueling probe,” Griffiths says. “LCA is a tightly packed aircraft ... Unfortunately, we’re later in the design period. We will roll out the retractable [version] by 2013-14.”

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby kvraghav » 27 Feb 2011 11:33

Tried all the image processing techniques i had to get the tail number of the refuelling pod air craft with no success.Anybody knows which one of the birds this one is?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 27 Feb 2011 13:24

Gallery Updated

Tejas Drop Tank (2 Pages)
Tejas Pamphlet (6 Pages)
Tejas Airforce Mk2 (4 Pages)
LCA Navy Mk-2 (2 Pages)

Added to Brochures section

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby rakall » 27 Feb 2011 13:28

Kakarat wrote:Gallery Updated

Tejas Drop Tank (2 Pages)
Tejas Pamphlet (6 Pages)
Tejas Airforce Mk2 (4 Pages)
LCA Navy Mk-2 (2 Pages)

Added to Brochures section



Thanks a lot.. Excellent pick-up from ADA pavilion.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 27 Feb 2011 14:11

kakarat, I know we shouldn't be greedy and all but did you pick up any more brochures ? from ISRO/BEL other DRDO labs etc ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 27 Feb 2011 14:21

No - ISRO & BEL
YES - GTRE, ADRDE, HAL ...

I was more focused on photographing the flight display so less time to collect brochures

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kakarat » 27 Feb 2011 16:15

http://www.ada.gov.in
LCA-Tejas has completed 1578 Test Flights successfully. (23-Feb-2011).
* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-203,PV3-269,LSP1-62,LSP2-166,PV5-25,LSP3-30,LSP4-32,LSP5-11)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Bihanga » 27 Feb 2011 18:22

Kakarat wrote:Photo of Tejas with In-Flight Refuelling Probe from Tejas booklet
Image

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... LCA+Tejas/


Very thrilled to see IFR Pod on LCA Tejas, it would be really nice to see getting it refuelled by Tankers high up in the air.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby krishnan » 27 Feb 2011 19:42

deleted
Last edited by krishnan on 27 Feb 2011 21:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gurneesh » 28 Feb 2011 08:15

Couple of Pics posted on broadsword with HAL engineers working on what looks like a PV at around the same area where the IFR probe should be....

Image

Image

The LCA with IFR probe also looks like a PV (no air scoop) though the pic is not clear enough.




P.S. could someone explain the procedure to create thumbnails of big pics..

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 28 Feb 2011 08:27

Remembering Admiral Nadkarni's Strategic thinking with great fondness and a tinge of nostalgia

From 2001
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13nad.htm
LCA is incapable of any significant upgrading at all during its lifetime. It is a very small, single-engined aircraft tightly packed with equipment. It cannot be fitted with a bigger engine or expanded avionics.


So the most prudent thing for the government would be to immediately terminate the LCA project. National and individual egos have been satisfied after the first flight.


Also see - from the BRM archives:
The LCA: With All Due Respect to the Naysayers…Narayanan Komerath

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby pragnya » 28 Feb 2011 10:42

now that it is known that DERBY is the BVR missile for the LCA, it would be interesting to see T/W ratios of the LCA mark 1 (@85kn) and LCA mark 2 (@118kn) in comparison to the other IAF aircrafts.

some assumptions -

1. a 20% increase in the baseline f414 (presently @98kn) thrust and offsetting the weight reduction in LCA mark 2 to increase of weight due to the increase in length of 0.5m hence same weight at 6560kg empty.

2. config in A2A mode with 2 R73 and 4 DERBY BVR missile.

3. all calculations based on the same payload weight @682kg for all aircrafts for a fair representation.

4. an equivalent weight for the strike aircrafts.

5. Mig 21 @560 kg with 2 R73s and 2 R77s (only 5 hard points).

6. LCA mark 2 internal fuel taken at 3000kg vs LCA mark 1 @2486kg.

7. check T/W ratio of Mig 29 post upgrade to SMT standards with assumed internal fuel increase to 5000kg from the present 4000kg.

..............

LCA M1...MIG27.....M2K.....JAGUAR...MIG29....SU30.....MIG21

0.88........0.69......0.83.....0.59.........1.05.....1.09......0.85

LCA M2...MIG27.....M2K.....JAGUAR...MIG29....SU30.....MIG21

1.16........0.69......0.83.....0.59.........0.99.....1.09......0.85

LCA mark 2 will have the highest T/W of all IAF aircrafts!!! 8)

even LCA mark 1 compares favourably or better thrust wise to many IAF birds!!! still branded as 'underpowered'!!! :eek:
Last edited by pragnya on 28 Feb 2011 11:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 28 Feb 2011 10:52

yes the Mk1 per the table above is higher than other IAF single engined birds. moreover I believe it has lesser wing loading than M2k.

can you find out details of the Gripen-C and F-16-block52 with same payload and post here please?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby pragnya » 28 Feb 2011 11:11

Singha wrote:yes the Mk1 per the table above is higher than other IAF single engined birds. moreover I believe it has lesser wing loading than M2k.

can you find out details of the Gripen-C and F-16-block52 with same payload and post here please?


Singha sir. i have just edited my post and refined it. check. also take note of Mig 29 t/w post upgrade. :wink:

will check out on Gripen C and F-16 B 52.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Vikram W » 28 Feb 2011 11:15

Marten wrote:
Shiv wrote:Remembering Admiral Nadkarni's Strategic thinking with great fondness and a tinge of nostalgia

From 2001
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13nad.htm


Well said Admiral. As much as DRDOs work is appreciated , the time to market is a factor that it has overlooked time and again. We live in an age where today's leading edge technology is a dead horse before we know it. After all the delays , we should learn that a deadline is just that, a deadline and carved in stone.

"Once the project is sanctioned, feed the media with a steady stream of unverifiable tidbits. Bring out a mock-up model and show it round at the Republic Day parade and defence exhibitions." ... now happening on LCA Navy.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby pragnya » 28 Feb 2011 11:23

comparison of T/W with Gripen C as per these specs @682 KG payload as per my previous post -

Image

LCA mark 1/2......Gripen C/Gripen NG

0.88/1.16.................0.82/0.90
Last edited by pragnya on 28 Feb 2011 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 28 Feb 2011 11:29

Vikram W wrote:Well said Admiral. As much as DRDOs work is appreciated , the time to market is a factor that it has overlooked time and again. We live in an age where today's leading edge technology is a dead horse before we know it. After all the delays , we should learn that a deadline is just that, a deadline and carved in stone.

"Once the project is sanctioned, feed the media with a steady stream of unverifiable tidbits. Bring out a mock-up model and show it round at the Republic Day parade and defence exhibitions." ... now happening on LCA Navy.


haha, hardly and you are baiting, but I will bite...

Technology hardly dies the minute it is out. Technology used to fight by other forces isn't always the latest/greatest, but the most hardened and mature one. The process used to arrive here is lab/field/feedback/hardening over and over till they get what they want. He may be called admiral and may be able to command some ships, but he is kinda out of water when he talks of technology or being able to lead ;)....How come he keeps pushing his title to sell his ideas ? :) They don't hold water well on their own ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 28 Feb 2011 11:51

LCA-Tejas has completed 1578 Test Flights successfully. (23-Feb-2011).
* (TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-203,PV3-269,LSP1-62,LSP2-166,PV5-25,LSP3-30,LSP4-32,LSP5-11)


LSP1 has been grounded for a long while, the last it flew was in September 2010. Hope they start flogging it. Btw the pic below from AS' blog shows 03 on the landing gear cover which means its PV1. May be PV1 is the first one on which mid air refuelling might be tested. Very curious whats happening with lsp6/7/8. Btw, when are mid air engine relighting exercises scheduled for or are they already done

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Multatuli » 28 Feb 2011 12:19

Pragnya wrote:

Even LCA mark 1 compares favourably or better thrust wise to many IAF Birds!!! still branded as 'underpowered'!!!



Pragnya sahib, thanks for those figures.

Well they have to find some argument to reject it or to keep their numbers in the IAF limited. At first the IAF didn't intend to purchase more then 20 LCA's.

The IAF chiefs remark that the LCA was a MiG-21++ is revealing: How could an Indian designed fighter ever equal or be better than a European designed fighter? The LCA a Mirage 2000? Naah, that is just too silly for words!

The Arjun tank too was too high, heavy, underpowered, too big, expensive, etc..

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby merlin » 28 Feb 2011 13:21

Vikram W wrote:Well said Admiral. As much as DRDOs work is appreciated , the time to market is a factor that it has overlooked time and again. We live in an age where today's leading edge technology is a dead horse before we know it. After all the delays , we should learn that a deadline is just that, a deadline and carved in stone.

"Once the project is sanctioned, feed the media with a steady stream of unverifiable tidbits. Bring out a mock-up model and show it round at the Republic Day parade and defence exhibitions." ... now happening on LCA Navy.


Another idiot for the ignore list.


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