LCA News and Discussions

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Karan M
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2011 00:22

Vina, PratikDas, SaiK and KersiD,

The LCA EW role refers to the integration of the DRDO (DARE) developed RWJ - Radar Warning Jammer. This is being fitted onto PV-1. This is a state of the art system with multiple receivers and transmitters and embedded DRFM. A variant of the system is flying on the MiG-27s and an even more powerful variant (in terms of jammers, it has AESA ones) is on the UPG MiG-29s. The AESA jammers were in development earlier in the year whereas the LCA and MiG-27 SUITE with conventional Tx is already available for testing. My previous posts have some more details where I had deduced the same.
Now, for more confirmation, please check the MOD AR 2011.

The LCA EW suite can indeed be used for an EW role. As matter of fact, IAF officers, publicly, had noted they were using the ELTA EL/L-8222 SPJ on the MiG-27 UPGs based out of Gujarat for an EW role and not just self protection. This was before the RWJ was developed, at the time the MiG-27s had received the ELTA SPJ . The RWJ btw is more powerful, sophisticated than the 8222 and can handle more threats as well. Its configuration (as on the LCA) can handle both forward & aft threats (again public information). The MiG-29 variant (using AESA) will feature even better coverage (the aircraft can handle a larger fit).

EW is an area where India has made tremendous progress as PV Naik (noted to an audience) and continues to march forward.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2011 00:25

merlin wrote:Number of test points is large but not huge. But to get data for DB so that in the future its easier you still need to do a heck of a lot of testing. And in a first effort you will get numerous showstoppers for many test cases which need to be resolved one by one. Painfully. Slowly. That is why this takes time.

And understandably people get frustrated. But if IAF is not, then it doesn't matter.


Another issue is of software and hardware verification. Any change, however minor, has to run the gamut of IV&V which takes many hundreds and even thousands of manhours of effort, is painstakingly tested for possible contingencies, test flown on simulators and then cleared. Similarly, hardware changes are also very closely evaluated. Per IAF personnel, its only at wartime, where due to exigency, the rule book was thrown out and quick and ready fixes for munitions on the Mirage 2000 were cleared.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pranay » 23 Sep 2011 00:58

SaiK wrote:doesn't paveways need unkill's nod to be fired from tejas?


Folks - A little quibble about semantics - Bombs do not get fired from aircraft- they get dropped. Missiles and rockets get Fired! :)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2011 01:02

You are dealing with Saikological athyachar!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pranay » 23 Sep 2011 01:06

ramana wrote:You are dealing with Saikological athyachar!


:lol:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby merlin » 23 Sep 2011 12:40

Karan M wrote:
merlin wrote:Number of test points is large but not huge. But to get data for DB so that in the future its easier you still need to do a heck of a lot of testing. And in a first effort you will get numerous showstoppers for many test cases which need to be resolved one by one. Painfully. Slowly. That is why this takes time.

And understandably people get frustrated. But if IAF is not, then it doesn't matter.


Another issue is of software and hardware verification. Any change, however minor, has to run the gamut of IV&V which takes many hundreds and even thousands of manhours of effort, is painstakingly tested for possible contingencies, test flown on simulators and then cleared. Similarly, hardware changes are also very closely evaluated. Per IAF personnel, its only at wartime, where due to exigency, the rule book was thrown out and quick and ready fixes for munitions on the Mirage 2000 were cleared.


Yes. Also without prior experience to rely on, you don't know which corners you can safely cut. So its slow.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 23 Sep 2011 13:04

EW is an area where India has made tremendous progress as PV Naik (noted to an audience) and continues to march forward.



And that is more than 50 per cent of modern warfare. then why all the dhoti shivering?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nash » 23 Sep 2011 13:22

And that is more than 50 per cent of modern warfare. then why all the dhoti shivering?


Becoz we are SDRE only.... :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 23 Sep 2011 15:11

Pranay wrote:
SaiK wrote:doesn't paveways need unkill's nod to be fired from tejas?


Folks - A little quibble about semantics - Bombs do not get fired from aircraft- they get dropped. Missiles and rockets get Fired! :)


Nope. Bombs are fired and rockets are phyrred.
:D
smiley added later

..just in case
Last edited by shiv on 23 Sep 2011 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby krishnan » 23 Sep 2011 15:27

Whats the difference between rocket and missile

Google cacha told me this

10. If an unguided warhead is attached to some type of propulsion system, most often a solid rocket motor, the result is a rocket. A rocket has no form of guidance and remains a "dumb" weapon. The rocket has a means of propulsion that allows it to travel farther and faster than a bomb.

11. When we take unguided rocket and add a guidance system, the result is a missile.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 23 Sep 2011 15:35

krishnan wrote:Whats the difference between rocket and bomb?

OK this is the LCA thread and I am guilty of helping it go further off course. I hope this question is serious.

Bombs are explosive only and do not come with a rocket or jet to power it to fly some distance. They fall straight down. Rockets are powered by a rocket motor are able to fly some distance before hitting a target. Missiles is the usual word for rockets with guidance.

Nowadays even unpowered "dumb" bombs have become accurate with some guidance mechanism and newer ones can glide many Km and have a far longer range and accuracy than unguided rockets.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2011 15:56

krishnan wrote:Whats the difference between rocket and missile


One is what life occasionally gives you (rocket) and other is what gets affected (missile) when a bomb passes you by.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2011 15:58

merlin wrote:Yes. Also without prior experience to rely on, you don't know which corners you can safely cut. So its slow.


A big issue is that given the abysmal attitude of the Indian DDM and even a huge gang of arms imports supporting wheeler dealers, Indian developers cannot afford risk. Just see the caterwauling that occurs when even a missile or rocket failure occurs.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SBajwa » 23 Sep 2011 17:13

It is an excellent news that LCAs Ground attack weaponry is being cleared. Any news on the rest?

1. Air-to-Air
2. Anti-ship
3. Guns (if any)?
4. Range with drop tanks.
5. Decoys.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Sep 2011 17:50

SBajwa wrote:It is an excellent news that LCAs Ground attack weaponry is being cleared. Any news on the rest?

1. Air-to-Air
2. Anti-ship
3. Guns (if any)?
4. Range with drop tanks.
5. Decoys.


Tejas undergoes weapons trials

In a key step towards attaining final operational clearance (FOC) from the IAF, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is undergoing weapons trials, including firing air-to-air missiles to test its capability to bring down enemy planes.



Me thinks though these will be infrared guided R-73's rather than the Radar Guided Derby's

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 23 Sep 2011 19:07

I would love to see the mmr's sar image of pokhran bombing range, as seen by tejas.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby sumits_mail » 23 Sep 2011 21:07

Aditya_V wrote:
SBajwa wrote:It is an excellent news that LCAs Ground attack weaponry is being cleared. Any news on the rest?

1. Air-to-Air
2. Anti-ship
3. Guns (if any)?
4. Range with drop tanks.
5. Decoys.


Tejas undergoes weapons trials

In a key step towards attaining final operational clearance (FOC) from the IAF, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is undergoing weapons trials, including firing air-to-air missiles to test its capability to bring down enemy planes.



Me thinks though these will be infrared guided R-73's rather than the Radar Guided Derby's


This article also says:
By 2014, a total of seven squadrons (over 120 aircraft) of the advanced version of the fighter aircraft, LCA MK-II with upgraded system and capabilities would be inducted into the IAF.

FOC in Dec 2012 and seven squadrons in the next two years. :lol:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 26 Sep 2011 01:55

disappointed that no pictures have emerged as yet of the Tejas with LGBs over Pokhran..

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kersi D » 26 Sep 2011 20:29

shiv wrote:
Pranay wrote:Folks - A little quibble about semantics - Bombs do not get fired from aircraft- they get dropped. Missiles and rockets get Fired! :)


Nope. Bombs are fired and rockets are phyrred.
:D
..just in case


Most important, our neighbours ooops our enemies get ffrriieedd

K

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby sankum » 27 Sep 2011 09:51


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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_19648 » 27 Sep 2011 12:54

Did anyone go through this news! Sounds good! Hope by "Shortly", they mean soon enough!

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/09/lca-np-1-gears-up-for-maiden-flight.html

The naval prototype (NP-1) of the light combat aircraft (LCA) did the first engine ground run (EGR) successfully. According to sources, the first EGR was conducted on September 26 at about 6.30 pm. Tests like engine integration, activation of the various systems like flight control, hydraulics, fuel, electrical and avionics were done successfully. “The aircraft will now go through a phase of refinements followed by a series of final integration checks and taxi trials, before its first flight shortly,” sources said.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 27 Sep 2011 13:42

^^^
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/06/tech-integration-challenges-hit-lca.html

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) P.S. Subramanyam tells Tarmak007 that the delay is mainly due to the challenges being posed by some of the new technologies during the integration stage. “We had problems related to the landing gear, arrestor hook, and LEVCONs (control surfaces which allow for better low-speed handling). This is how technology development occurs. Now we have sorted out all major issues and have tested all naval systems. The structural coupling test has also been completed. The NP-1 is now ready for the engine ground run,” he said.
Normally, the first flight can occur approximately six weeks after the engine ground run. “After the EGR, we will have the low and high-speed taxi trials and then the first flight. Developing the NP-2 is our next task. Being a single-seater, the development of NP-2 will be faster,” the ADA chief said.

He said the shore-based test facility (SBTF) coming up in Goa is proceeding ‘ahead of the schedule.’ By October 2011, the take-off area will be ready and by next year (2012) the landing area too will be in place.


So first flight only after a couple of months i guess, slow but steady progress

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Sep 2011 16:10

Any news on LSP7 and 8. If thier EGR has not yet started then they are more than 2 months away from take off then???

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby D Roy » 27 Sep 2011 16:30

Here is the DRDO release on EGR of NP1 (received via email). Posting for archival purposes.


LCA (Navy) Trainer Prototype (NP1) Achieves Milestone
1. Dream of the country’s first indigenous effort to build a carrier borne Naval Fighter aircraft got a fillip with the crossing of another significant milestone of the first Engine Ground Run (EGR) on the
26 Sep 2011 of first LCA(Navy) prototype NP1. The team steering LCA(Navy) project comprises, members of Indian Navy, Indian Air Force, HAL, DRDO, CEMILAC, DGAQA, CSIR Labs, Educational Institutions, other Public and Private Sector partners.
2. The first EGR of NP1 aircraft was conducted at about 1830hrs on the 26 Sep 2011 for its schedule time, had the primary objective of checking aircraft to engine integration and activation of the various systems like Flight control, Hydraulics, Fuel, Electrical, Avionics, etc., which was successfully achieved.
3. The aircraft will now go through a phase of refinements based on feedback identified during the course of the build up and also observed during the EGR, followed by a series of final integration checks and taxi trials before its maiden flight shortly.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Sep 2011 18:01

Last edited by chackojoseph on 27 Sep 2011 22:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Yogi_G » 27 Sep 2011 18:51

Ivanev wrote:Did anyone go through this news! Sounds good! Hope by "Shortly", they mean soon enough!

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/09/lca-np-1-gears-up-for-maiden-flight.html

The naval prototype (NP-1) of the light combat aircraft (LCA) did the first engine ground run (EGR) successfully. According to sources, the first EGR was conducted on September 26 at about 6.30 pm. Tests like engine integration, activation of the various systems like flight control, hydraulics, fuel, electrical and avionics were done successfully. “The aircraft will now go through a phase of refinements followed by a series of final integration checks and taxi trials, before its first flight shortly,” sources said.


Blijj to educate this Abdul. Why would they schedule it for dusk when visibility is low? I mean, they definitely would have a reason for scheduling it at that time.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 27 Sep 2011 19:31

wow, those landing gears look so strong! [wonder the steroidal look contains light weight-super strong materials?].

LCA definitely need an MMR AESA that is GaN/or some next gen t/rs. All depends on its radar since the operational range is now enhanceable with external drop tanks. Longer range missiles [>120-150km] astras, meteors, and a short range [<150km] air launched mini-brahmos is possible.


--
"Yesterday LCA fired a laser guided bomb which had a direct hit on the target under heat conditions in Pokhran. It was the first such firing from the aircraft."

8)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Neela » 27 Sep 2011 20:16

[quote="chackojoseph"]LCA Naval Prototype completes first Engine ground Run


What are those three stripes in the nose cone ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Sep 2011 20:20

^^^ its Vibhuti's, like the ones you put on foreheads, cars etc. Nothing to do with the technical issue.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Sep 2011 20:42

SaiK wrote:wow, those landing gears look so strong! [wonder the steroidal look contains light weight-super strong materials?]


Sexy Legs

Image

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Image

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 27 Sep 2011 21:02

Those three stripes represents the systems are ready for BVR ! :wink:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Vipul » 27 Sep 2011 23:40

Upgraded Light Combat Aircraft Tejas to take off in 3 years.

An upgraded version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be ready to take off within three years.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), along with the Central Scientific Instruments Organization (CSIO), Chandigarh, is working on the project. Tejas' aircraft technology will put India on the fifth spot after the US, France, Russia and UK.This was disclosed by additional general manager of HAL, Bangalore, K P Singh, who visited the CSIO laboratory on the occasion of the CSIR foundation day on Monday.

Tejas LCA has a HUD (head up display) which was developed at the CSIO at the start of the year. It has unmatchable brightness on the display board. "We will provide HUD for the upgraded version which will have better range accuracy and will be lighter as compared to the existing one. At present, we have HUD weighing 18kg," said Dr Pawan Kapur, director CSIO.The improvised version is being devised for the Indian Navy. According to official sources, there is a requirement of over 100 such HUDs for Tejas. "Already, we have provided 36 and 90 more are in the production line," said an official at the CSIO.

Talking about the plan, Singh said, "We have been working with CSIO on LCA and intermediate jet trainer aircraft." Though HAL is the only supplier of Tejas to the Indian defence forces, catching up with the international competitors has not been easy. "We cannot afford to lose time. There are gaps in the system which slows down the pace of technology. Though red tapism has decreased to some extent, it still exists," said Singh.

The CSIO is working on Mark 2 for intermediate jet trainer aircraft where the weight of the HUD will be 11.8kg.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 28 Sep 2011 03:14

high quality NP-1 image at Shiv Aroor's blog

NP-1

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby S_Prasad » 28 Sep 2011 05:38

Kartik wrote:high quality NP-1 image at Shiv Aroor's blog

NP-1


If we look closer, we can see the rivets like things poking out of the skin, I never noticed these in the AF version, wonder why the Naval version has these? I am pretty sure the construction of the two is very similar

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 28 Sep 2011 05:48

interesting observation indeed.

gurus?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 28 Sep 2011 07:29

I don't think those panels have been set in yet. There seem to be dark rivet holes too, not just raised / unsunk rivets. They probably need to access the sub-systems to work on them before the clearance for first flight. Just-in-time manufacturing.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 28 Sep 2011 07:35

what is the method - counter-sink it first or get it out?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 28 Sep 2011 07:55

SaiK wrote:what is the method - counter-sink it first or get it out?


I could be wrong but I think the raised rivets are like the "pop rivets" in stage two shown below to just hold the plates in place, with the final stage outstanding. I think there are also some dark holes in the LCA photo without any rivets in them, as shown in stage 1.

Image

Added later: It is a bit amusing that after so many months we've come full circle to the topic of rivets again. :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 28 Sep 2011 08:06

:) AMCA should go rivetless!

push fit, snap and lock tight!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby dinesha » 28 Sep 2011 09:01

X-post
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 490635.ece
On weapon trials of Light Combat Aircraft Tejas which is going on at a firing range in Pokhran, Mr. Saraswat said, “Yesterday LCA fired a laser guided bomb which had a direct hit on the target under heat conditions in Pokhran. It was the first such firing from the aircraft.”

He said the aircraft is expected to get the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) from the IAF by 2012.

.....


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