Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2011

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shiv
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby shiv » 18 Feb 2011 07:12

CRamS wrote:those who claim that US-led 3.5 support to TSP is the cause for India unable to punish TSP, .


CRamS - I want to make a point about the above statement. Please bear with me - I will have to use a medical analogy

In the Western (esp USA) scheme of things drugs and medicines are tried out for certain illnesses and in a comparative study it is discovered that Drug A is effective in 80% of patients with some illness - say Exploding Balls Disease (EBD). The same studies show that Drug B is effective in only 45% of patients with EBD. So the drug licensing authority allows Drug A as the treatment of choice and rejects Drug B.

But what was pointed out, by Deepak Chopra among others is that 20% of people do not respond to Drug A. It is an utter waste to ignore drug B because many of those 20% might respond to drug B. There is no guarantee, but in order to be thorough and leave no stone unturned in a quest for the treatment of Exploding Balls Disease both Drug A and B must be available along with anything else that might crop up.

The same analogy applies in the cure of the Pakistan disease which is deadlier than EBD. We must not ignore even the smallest and seemingly most minor factor that is making Pakistan stronger vis a vis India without costs to Pakistan. It is a definite cop out to ignore the smallest useful thing and not be judgemental and say this route is so much better that we can ignore all other routes as insignificant or that "they do not matter". That is snake oil.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby somnath » 18 Feb 2011 07:28

hnair wrote:Some cant believe *Indians can demand and it shall be met*

We are doing that all the time - refer to the nuke deal!

But as I mentioned somewhere before, policy makers and nation states dont deal with problems in ringfenced formats...The Indo-Pak-US conventional arms quesiton is intricately intertwined with a host of other variables...For example, what is the end game in Afghanistan? Do we want the US to leave? That would leave the field open to rampant Paki and Chinese interests...India wont even have a foothold - just as we didnt before 9/11..It is in our interest to have the Americans in Afghanistan, beause that is our "cover" for our presence there...And at least some of the aid is simply of the Americans paying off the Pakis in order to secure their own presence in Af...Should we be concentrating on breaking that logistical dependency condition (for the US, and at some stage, presumably for us as well), or should we be whining about "you have given 3 more F16s"?

We have spent a signbificant amount of money and time behind the Chabahar initiatve..Problem is, we ourselves havent "tested" it out really yet...It is a real variable to bring about a grand tactical collaboration between India, Iran and the US - to effectively cut off the Pakis.that route can potentially also be a possible lifeline for a permanent stationing of Indian boots at some stage in Af, in fact that can be the ONLY route within plausible scenarios...and boots on the ground in Af would be consummation of an ultimate dream scenario vis a vis Pak - and realisation of Pak's worst nightmares...

Should we be thinking along those lines and coordinating with the US, or spend our time in useless whining on new-gen NVGs? And people who dont advocate that become "WKK, MUTU, RNI" and whatever else!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby shiv » 18 Feb 2011 07:40

vnadendla wrote:US, UK are our partners in growth.


Disclaimer: My reply may be OT. My apologies in advance.

I do not deny that the USA and UK may be "partners" in our growth.

But at the most fundamental level the USA and UK are interested in their own growth and survival against everyone else. For that reason they choose to "partner with" many nations - and that includes Pakistan. Pakistan too is a partner in the power and growth of the USA and India.

I think many things discussed earlier on these frums are forgotten or not seen by so many people that they are worth repeating. There are many stories of arms middlemen working for colonial Britain and other nations who made good money for Britain by encouraging conflict between two nations and by selling arms to both sides. Britain and the US (and Russia and China and France) earn money out of states in conflict.

On the one hand nations like the USA and Britain "urge countries like IndiaPakistan" to make peace with each other. On the other hand they pass on (sometimes as free aid) deadly weapons that makes the other nation scramble for arms to match that. The business and military-industrial complexes of these nations survive on a long history of industrialization caused by prolonged wars. The survival of the USA (and Britain in an earlier era) are at stake in the absence of wars and an ability to provoke arms races.

Merely bribing the US is not possible. The more we buy from the US the more the US will be tempted to gift arms to Pakis so we can buy even more. Peace is good for the USA and need not be present for anyone else. "World Peace"= peaceful USA. So this "partnership" is one that needs to be looked at carefully and milked to give India maximum benefit.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby shiv » 18 Feb 2011 07:45

somnath wrote:Should we be thinking along those lines and coordinating with the US


Not necessarily.

Coordinating with the US at the expense of Indian lives is snake oil at its purest sir. And if it enriches America it is American snake oil. Sorry sir but it is my opinion that your views stand exposed as that of a person who will sell American interests above Indian interests and put up a robust defence of your view by saying that those who oppose you are "whining" about Night Vision Goggles. Sorry if you feel you are being whined at and being accused.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Karna_A » 18 Feb 2011 07:49

shiv wrote:CRamS - I want to make a point about the above statement. Please bear with me - I will have to use a medical analogy

In the Western (esp USA) scheme of things drugs and medicines are tried out for certain illnesses and in a comparative study it is discovered that Drug A is effective in 80% of patients with some illness - say Exploding Balls Disease (EBD). The same studies show that Drug B is effective in only 45% of patients with EBD. So the drug licensing authority allows Drug A as the treatment of choice and rejects Drug B.

But what was pointed out, by Deepak Chopra among others is that 20% of people do not respond to Drug A. It is an utter waste to ignore drug B because many of those 20% might respond to drug B. There is no guarantee, but in order to be thorough and leave no stone unturned in a quest for the treatment of Exploding Balls Disease both Drug A and B must be available along with anything else that might crop up.

The same analogy applies in the cure of the Pakistan disease which is deadlier than EBD. We must not ignore even the smallest and seemingly most minor factor that is making Pakistan stronger vis a vis India without costs to Pakistan. It is a definite cop out to ignore the smallest useful thing and not be judgemental and say this route is so much better that we can ignore all other routes as insignificant or that "they do not matter". That is snake oil.


Doctors,
I would like to know that if a patient is dying of Heart Attack and also losing hair, and when he is brought into operation theatre, do the emergency doctors start discussing which brand of hair growth tonic to give even if the person is a famous actor and needs those long hair for his next blockbuster?
Wouldn't an enlightened pretty nurse then remind the doctor Jhatkas that let's first unblock his arteries using thrombolytic drugs, beta blockers, nitrates, and anticoagulants, otherwise we are next looking at a blockbuster funeral and not a blockbuster movie.

Equating Saffron Terror with LET terror, or F16s with Nookes is like giving a heart attack patient hair tonic. Just like Arjuna, focus has to be on the main issues, minor ones are left for JNU debates.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 Feb 2011 08:00

shiv wrote:I am amazed at how difficult it is to get ostensibly Indian people to admit that US arms to Pakistan are harmful to India. This is something I had not realised. I thought it was a no brainer - but for some people allegiance to America and "understanding America" is more important that any risk to Indians. Amazing learning experience.



Nonsense. I, an 'ostensibly Indian' person do see as do the vast majority of Indians in America, that arms aid to Pakistan is harmful to India. That is a no brainer. I have said so and all except Jawed Naqwi Dawn's fifth columnist in India agree.

You reject the proposition that India could pressure US firms to stop arms to stop future product sales to Pakistan on the basis that would cut off off technology to India. You also use this as a basis to argue that GoI is doing what it has to do by saying you are not going to explain the their (in)actions. So it's left to the 1.5 million Americans citizens of Indian origin (I have a green card) to explain why they have not stopped the other 319 million Americans from providing arms to Pakistan.

Where are you going with this?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby arun » 18 Feb 2011 08:12

For the tradition minded BRFites, Enjoy the Jalebi and the return of Shrilleen aka Dr. Shireen Mazari after some gap:

A time to re-evaluate our ties with America

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby shiv » 18 Feb 2011 08:14

Cosmo_R wrote:
shiv wrote:I am amazed at how difficult it is to get ostensibly Indian people to admit that US arms to Pakistan are harmful to India. This is something I had not realised. I thought it was a no brainer - but for some people allegiance to America and "understanding America" is more important that any risk to Indians. Amazing learning experience.



Nonsense. I, an 'ostensibly Indian' person do see as do the vast majority of Indians in America, that arms aid to Pakistan is harmful to India. That is a no brainer. I have said so and all except Jawed Naqwi Dawn's fifth columnist in India agree.


Excellent. So long as you speak for yourself and not thousands or millions of others, I will take your word for it. Clearly you are not a person who sees no harm in the US supplying arms to Pakistan tat can be used against India. About others - perhaps my judgement cannot be stated as being either worse or better than yours.

Cosmo_R wrote:You reject the proposition that India could pressure US firms to stop arms to stop future product sales to Pakistan on the basis that would cut off off technology to India.


I have made no such statement sir. You have imagined it from my posts. But others may well have done this - so i do accept the impression you have got but deny that I said it.

Cosmo_R wrote: You also use this as a basis to argue that GoI is doing what it has to do by saying you are not going to explain the their (in)actions.


I have only said that I am not going to explain the GOI's action. I did not say that the GoI is doing what it has to do because I don't even know what the GoI has to do.


Cosmo_R wrote:So it's left to the 1.5 million Americans citizens of Indian origin (I have a green card) to explain why they have not stopped the other 319 million Americans from providing arms to Pakistan.

Where are you going with this?


I am glad you stated this openly. I did not suggest it but you have auto-suggested it to yourself - perhaps provoked by my statements. Indian Americans, like Indians in India are allowed to have political opinions. I see many suggestions on this forum about the politics that Indians in India should follow, made by a slew of deeply concerned people in various parts of the world. After all Indians in India are more likely to bend political opinion in India. Similarly Indian Americans in the US have a better opportunity to bend political opinion in America. I would be grateful if Indian Americans would take up the cause of stopping the supply of US arms to Pakistan as a political issue in the US and not state that the arms supply is insignificant and/or harmless. That is as far as I am going for now.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby arun » 18 Feb 2011 08:26

shiv wrote:I am amazed at how difficult it is to get ostensibly Indian people to admit that US arms to Pakistan are harmful to India. This is something I had not realised. I thought it was a no brainer - but for some people allegiance to America and "understanding America" is more important that any risk to Indians. Amazing learning experience.


I suspect that group mainly comprises of those who are not resident Indian’s or not Indian nationals though of Indian origin. We on BRF need to be clear cut in identifying those who are not the resident Indian’s or not Indian nationals though of Indian origin and thus potentially subject to divided loyalties.

Meanwhile it is a clearly a no brainer that the supply of US weapons to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan harms India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby shiv » 18 Feb 2011 08:29

arun wrote:I suspect that group mainly comprises of those who are not resident Indian’s or not Indian nationals though of Indian origin. We on BRF need to be clear cut in identifying those who are not the resident Indian’s or not Indian nationals though of Indian origin and thus potentially subject to divided loyalties.



BRF is an open forum. Anyone can post. But many political suggestions are made for India and we in turn make political suggestions for Pakistan or China. I am making a political suggestion for those Indians in America who are politically empowered.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby arun » 18 Feb 2011 08:37

On to things more directly Pakistani. Chidanand Rajghatta speculates that the recent cessation of the peregrinations of the National Bird of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan could be due to the fact that US “diplomat” “Raymond Davis” incarcerated for shooting down Pakistan’s in Lahore may have been connected to the Drone programme:

Was Davis running drone programme in Pakistan?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby somnath » 18 Feb 2011 08:45

shiv wrote:Coordinating with the US at the expense of Indian lives is snake oil at its purest sir. And if it enriches America it is American snake oil.

The Americans are coodinating with the Pakis, and "giving" them all sorts of aid, enriching (parts) of the Paki elite..and Americans are being killed by proxies of the Paki establishment all the time..Maybe that is Paki snake oil being peddled by Yankee snake oil salespeople?! So anyone that takes a more-than-the-most-simplistic view is a snake oil peddler? That owuld make pretty much ALL real policy makers snake oil salespeople!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Vivek_A » 18 Feb 2011 08:54

arun wrote:On to things more directly Pakistani. Chidanand Rajghatta speculates that the recent cessation of the peregrinations of the National Bird of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan could be due to the fact that US “diplomat” “Raymond Davis” incarcerated for shooting down Pakistan’s in Lahore may have been connected to the Drone programme:

Was Davis running drone programme in Pakistan?



AS usual, Chidanand Rajghatta proves he's the cream of the DDM

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... n_paki.php

Analysis: Gap in Pakistan Predator strikes not unusual

For over three weeks, the CIA's controversial covert air campaign that targets al Qaeda, Taliban, and allied terror groups' leaders and operatives in Pakistan's lawless and Taliban-controlled tribal areas has been silent. There has not been an airstrike by the armed, unmanned Predators and Reapers, or drones as they are more commonly called, for 25 days. This pause has sparked speculation that the US has halted the strikes for political reasons, but a look at the pace of the strikes over time shows that long pauses are not uncommon.

The current 23-day lull in strikes in Pakistan is the third-longest period of inactivity since the US ramped up the program in August 2008, according to data on the strikes compiled by The Long War Journal [a list of operational pauses that have been longer than eight days appears below].

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 08:58

TFT is out:

Such Gup
Fashion houses

The new Punjab Guv’s lady (he has several, we refer to the senior wife) has decided to go into business. We hear she is setting up a boutique and when asked how she thought it would fare in these recessionary times, she said she had thought of a way to maximize sales. She says her fashion house is going to be divided into three further houses – there’s going to be a “House of Lords” for the richest ladies. This House will stock apparel worth Rs 100,000/ and upwards. Then there’s going to be a “House of Commons” which is going to offer clothes between the range of Rs 20,000/ and Rs 100,000/. And then finally, the Guv’s lady is also going to have a House with an egalitarian touch – a “House of Servants” (we kid you not) for women of a lower order, whose pocket allows them only to buy clothes priced from Rs 5,000/ to Rs 20,000/.


Offers accepted

Ever wondered why there’s not a squeak out of the family of that poor boy Ibadurrahman, who was run over and killed by the speeding American Consulate vehicle that was chasing after Raymond Davis that fateful day in Lahore? Well, we have it from the horse’s mouth that Ibad’s family have been given four American passports and Rs 1 crore in compensation and that they have accepted both the passports and the money. They’ve signed on the dotted line and agreed to keep quiet. They will be leaving Lahore for the US shortly. An important personage of the Punjab Government went and personally made the offer to Ibad’s family and saw it through, notwithstanding the government’s pious denials to all and sundry that “the law would take its own course”. Something similar also happened to the late Fahim’s family (Fahim being one of the men shot dead by Raymond Davis), except that they fell out with each other. Apparently, Fahim’s mother was reluctant to share some of the spoils with his widow, who in a fit of desperation killed herself. Since then, the same mother and other relatives of Fahim have accepted the American offer.


Mind your language

Our new Min of Inf, that outspoken Iron Lady, had a spat with a woman anchor in a recent TV interview. Accused of gender insensitivity in the TV interview, the Iron Lady let rip once again. Lest we forget, the same Iron Lady had accused a fellow woman politician of having scaled the heights “via the bedroom”, and that too on television, for all to hear and see. This time, asked about that incident, the Iron Lady lost it, as she often does, and made a similar sexist comment aimed at the anchor. Later, we hear she complained to the management about the producer of the show. The Iron Lady had better learn to live with a free media. And she should mind her language.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 08:59

Ittefaq Nama

What a garland of the nack this Raymond Davis has become – gallay ka haar. Shakespeare said about problems such as these, “Albert Ross around the nack”. Albert Ross was late husband of Malika-e-Hind Queen Victoria Beckham. In fect, Shakespeare was a wery wise man and he was a Pakistani. I can proof it. He had appropriate lessons for all situations, specially the kind of situations and problems that are in Pakistan. He wrote his great things far Pakistan itself. For instant, about Asif Zardari’s government, Shakespeare wrote “All’s in a well that ends in a well”. Unfortunately, when army takes over in Pakistan and does coups, Shakespeare did not protest (because he was not a democrat and typical Pakistani) and just bowed his head and said, “As you like it”. About Taliban revenge killings against la enforcement agencies and such like, Shakespeare wrote “Meayure far meayure”. He also wrote about farmer Prime Minister Shortcut Aziz in “Merchant of Wenice”. Afsos (sorrow) that he did not write about Ghaddar Musharraf “Merchant of Menace”. As I told you so before, meray aziz humwatno, sorrow (afsos) that Shakespeare was not a democrat and was apologist for military.

He also wrote another famous play, “Corruptolanus”. I used to think it was dinosaur but then my infarmation secretary told me that oh no, Mian Saab, it is a zaat (caste) of politicians and civil and military bureaucrats and other sundries. What most people don’t know about Shakespeare is that he was also businessman and industrialist. He made auto parts and that is obvious from “Pericles, Prince of Tyres”. He was also producer of fillums and he diagnosed problems of Lollywood correctly, “the fault dear Brutus is not in our stars, but in ourselves”. As a producer, he wrote most famous jingle for Nestle Everyday milk, “Yet do I fear thy nature, ’tis too full o’ the milk of human kindness.”

Like some Pakistanis, Shakespeare was also Christian. That is why he wrote the droma “Hamlet” about haram meat. After that, I am sure he was going to write “Piglet” but he went to meet his Maker. My favourite Shakespeare droma is “Julius Scissor” because it is about a great Roman king who was just like me. My favourite line in it was written in Punjabi by Shakespeare, “Eh tu ain Brutus?” When Ghaddar Musharraf did my holiday (chutti kara di) in that horrible 1999 coup, I sent him message, “Eh tu ain Brutus?” But good thing about Shakespeare is that he was not provincial. He was a true Pakistani. He also wrote about Sindh. “I am a man more Sindh against than Sindhing”. And like a good Pakistani elder, he has forever warned about spring fever or bad thoughts that come to young people in spring, “Beware the ideas of March.”

Shakespeare –
Zindabad!

NS

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 09:04

Nuggets

‘PM Gilani most corrupt’

Quoted in Jang, ex-minister of JUIF Azam Swati stated that Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani was the most corrupt PM in the history of Pakistan. He said a committee, if formed under him, would uncover all the corruption of the government. PPP’s Sharmila Farooqi countered that Azam Swati was three years as minister in the government but thought fit to think of corruption after he was fired.


Tahir Ashrafi supports Governor Taseer

Ex-adviser on religion to Punjab and Islamic scholar Tahir Ashrafi was quoted by Express as saying that Governor Taseer was a brave man who stood by his beliefs but did not commit blasphemy. The Governor he said was killed by make-believe clerics and politicians. He said Blasphemy Law had been handed over to illiterate people to enforce.


No verification in Blasphemy Law

Writing in Express Abbas Athar stated that the basic fault in Blasphemy Law was that under it there was no independent verification of allegation of insult made against an accused. He added that it needed only someone to come up and accuse someone and the said person is thereafter sentenced.


Muwahid Shah’s wisdom

Speaking at Punjab University and reported by Jang famous US-based intellectual Muwahid Shah stated that Muslims should be given a special seat at the UN Security Council. He said Pakistan’s foreign policy was being shaped and run by bureaucrats who valued their jobs above country. He said India and Israel were committing state terrorism.


Columnist gets divine sanction

Writing in Express famous columnist Abdul Qadir Hasan also called Bhola by friends confessed that a saint named Syed Sarfraz Hussain Shah after his umra sent for him through socialist progressive journalist Ahmad Bashir. After the saint gave him the good tidings Bhola was so overcome by the effect that he had to be supported by Ahmad Bashir after which Bhola felt faint for many days.


Jinnah backed two nation doctrine

Quoted in Express scholar Shariful Mujahid stated that Jinnah believed in the two-nation doctrine and his 11 August speech was not in favour of secularism but in support of Misaq-e-Madina of the Prophet PBUH. He said it was misleading to debate the secularism of Jinnah today.


Jinnah was for secular Pakistan

Quoted in Express Haider Farooq Maududi, son of Maulana Maududi, stated that Jinnah created a secular state but Liaquat Ali Khan used Maulana Shabbir Usmani and other clerics to impose The Objectives Resolution on Pakistan. He said Muslim League and Congress were both created by British Raj. He said all problems of Pakistan were due to the clergy.


Dhoni embraces Islam? {AoA}

Daily Jinnah reported that Indian cricket captain Mahinder Singh Dhoni who was leading his team in South Africa was rumoured to have embraced Islam. The news was circulating on the Internet but was not confirmed by anyone. Dhoni could have been visited by an angel during sleep in which case cricket will be further strengthened by the spirit of Islam the same way as after Pakistan’s honest cricketers decided to defeat the Western civilisation through the clever device of spot-fixing.


Tahir Ashrafi and Maulana Sherani

Writing in Jinnah Khushnood Ali Khan wrote that Maulana Muhammad Khan Sherani appointed as chairman of Council for Islamic Ideology was not a great scholar and was therefore not suited as chairman. On the other hand, Hafiz Tahir Ashrafi was more suited as member of the Council but Sherani did not want to see him in the Council. JUIF was openly opposing the government but the government was still begging the JUIF (hath jor rahi hai).


‘Sahib’ still not abandoned

Daily Pakistan noted that Punjab bureaucracy was using the word of address ‘sahib’ in its communications and verbal usage. The word had been banned by a Punjab Assembly resolution in 1996 and disallowed its appendage to the names of civil servants. Legal experts held that use of sahib was an indicator of the habit of slavery in Pakistan.


Zardari is clever and good-tempered

Quoted in Jinnah ex-speaker, ex-foreign minister of Pakistan and son of General Ayub, Gauhar Ayub stated that Asif Ali Zardari was a good-tempered and intelligent politician. He said as speaker he kept trying to make things easy for Zardari when the latter was in prison. He said his grandmother believed in saints but his father did not think much of mysticism.


Wukla persons go berserk in Sheikhupura

Reported in Jinnah wukla lawyers of Sheikhupura went berserk and destroyed the office of DCO and thrashed whoever came in front of them because the DCO had ordered the pulling down of their illegal offices in the precincts of the courts. In reaction, the civil servants thus threatened by the wukla assault struck work and locked up their offices.


Terrorist Saifullah Akhtar let off

Reported in Jinnah America had protested to the ISI for having released a known terrorist named Saifullah Akhtar saying that such known terrorists wanted in various parts of the world should not be allowed to go free. Akhtar is wanted for doing terrorism in Afghanistan. Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah said that Akhtar was let off in December 2010 because no case could be proved against him in the court. Akhtar was named by Benazir as her possible assassin.


Dancers Nargis and Honey go ‘gutham-gutha’

Reported by Jang famous dancers of Lahore and loved by the people Ms Nargis and Ms Honey Shahzadi were at a furniture shop when they came face to face. Honey claimed to the police that she was buying furniture for her beauty parlour when Nargis attacked her along with her goondas. Later the fight was resolved amicably.


Fazl swears at Prophet’s Mausoleum

Quoted in Express JUIF chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman claimed that he had gone to Madina to swear at the tomb of Prophet PBUH that he would avenge blasphemy in Pakistan by opposing any changes in Blasphemy Law.


Chief Reporter and Blasphemy Law

Chief Reporter Ansar Abbasi wrote in Jang that he and a number of conservative lawyers in Lahore got together to file a petition in 1984 at the Federal Shariat Court asking for a law against insult to the Prophet PBUH. In July 1984, a lady lawyer (Asma Jahangir?) whose husband was an industrialist insulted the Prophet PBUH in Islamabad during a speech. This was followed by unrest in the meeting. On this Appa Nisar Fatima raised the issue in the parliament and presented the bill about 295-C of the Penal Code. It was accepted by MNAs but Law Minister Iqbal Ahmad Khan changed the text at the last minute to assign ‘death or life’ as punishment for blasphemy. On this, Nisar Fatima took the matter back to Federal Shariat Court saying the punishment for blasphemy was ‘hadd’ (mentioned in the Quran) and could not be less than death. Hearing started on first April 1987. Advocate generals from the provinces agreed with petition and the judges agreed to having death as the only punishment. Dr Tahirul Qadri held that even evidence of intention was not required before quickly killing the blasphemer. The Court gave the government till 1991 to amend the Penal Code Section 295-C. PM Nawaz Sharif wanted to challenge the verdict but desisted after a message was sent to him about how the people would react.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby surinder » 18 Feb 2011 09:16

shiv wrote: I would be grateful if Indian Americans would take up the cause of stopping the supply of US arms to Pakistan as a political issue in the US and not state that the arms supply is insignificant and/or harmless.


It is worse than that: Not only is their home nation (the nation of the citizens of Indian Americans) supplying arms to one of the most corrupt, atankvadi nation, but the money earned by the Indian Americans goes in taxes to funds this.

Indian Americans have not made the anything beyond the meagre minimum against this issue (or other issues like evanjihadi issues).

But then, they are in good company: Indian Indians have done precious little too. They are all cut from the same cloth.
Last edited by surinder on 18 Feb 2011 09:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Sadler » 18 Feb 2011 09:20

Karna_A wrote:The way to deal with TSP nookes is to have 3x TSP nookes and keep 1x for TSP and rest to make Arabian sands hot.
Just like Hamid Gul is fond of saying no matter who hits TSP, they hit India.
Just like that Indian policy has to be no matter why or when TSP uses nookes, Arabian Sands will melt.
Just as Israel says that it has to be like a mad dog so no one messes with it, India too has to be like a mad dog in case of TSP attack, that the response would be very obnoxious to everything that TSP cherishes.
And if 26/11 can unite Indians so much a naked nook attack would definately mean that 3500 KMS around India is also burning.


I had advocated this very approach a long time ago on BR Forum, this was even before BRF started on frank discussions on EJs and Islamism. At that time, i was slapped down hard by being accused of inciting hatred and calling for genocide etc.

I am really glad to see this being advocated as one approach. If the TSP rationale is that the hindu (or Indian) faith(s) wont surive an islamic nuclear strike, and islam will chug merrily along, then it is incumbent upon India to dispel this idiotic notion. The saud barbarians must be told in no uncertain terms that meccah and medinah will become radioactive parking lots should there be an islamic nuclear strike against India. Islamics understand one language clearly, mindless brutal nihilistic violence, and that is what India must promise by way of retribution.

Great post, Mr. Karna_A. I've been waiting to see this "wisdom" being drawn and articulated on BRF for a very long time.
Last edited by Sadler on 18 Feb 2011 09:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Vivek_A » 18 Feb 2011 09:25

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... TopStories

Spy Feud Hampers Antiterror Efforts

By ADAM ENTOUS, JULIAN E. BARNES and TOM WRIGHT

Ties between U.S. and Pakistani intelligence agencies have deteriorated sharply in recent months, compromising cooperation on a range of critical counter-terrorism efforts, including U.S. drone strikes targeting top militant leaders, current and former officials say.

U.S. intelligence officials attribute the recent drop off in the number of strikes to bad winter weather. Other officials and experts say weather may well be a factor, but that the sharp drop in strikes also suggests that the CIA may be having trouble pinpointing new Haqqani targets, either because militants have gone deeper into hiding or have moved to new areas, possibly with the help of ISI.

Two tribesmen in North Waziristan say the weather has been mixed, cloudy some days or sunny on others, since Jan. 24. They said aircraft they believe to be drones can be seen flying overhead on clearer days but there have been no strikes.

The Haqqani network has long used Miranshah in North Waziristan as its main base of operations in Pakistan. But U.S. officials and outside experts say there are signs the group may be moving to a neighboring tribal area known as Kurram, possibly with the help of ISI agents, making it harder for the CIA to find targets to strike in North Waziristan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Vivek_A » 18 Feb 2011 09:26

So it's the fault of Indian-Americans that the indian government is doing the chai-biskoot thing with TSP..or that TSP rats like rahat fateh ali khan get visas to india?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 18 Feb 2011 09:30

shiv wrote:I am amazed at how difficult it is to get ostensibly Indian people to admit that US arms to Pakistan are harmful to India. This is something I had not realised. I thought it was a no brainer - but for some people allegiance to America and "understanding America" is more important that any risk to Indians. Amazing learning experience.

...

So for any given opinion on this thread we have to check where the allegiance may lie so that we can "understand" where they are coming from - given that "understanding" of all sorts of undesirable actions is being demanded of us. What a laugh. But a learning experience nevertheless. And everyone with double or triple allegiances claims a primary loyalty to India. :D


I agree.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby shiv » 18 Feb 2011 09:49

Vivek_A wrote:So it's the fault of Indian-Americans that the indian government is doing the chai-biskoot thing with TSP..or that TSP rats like rahat fateh ali khan get visas to india?

Since you say it - I take that as your opinion, since no one else has said that. Your view adds to the colr and variety of opinions voiced on this thread.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby svinayak » 18 Feb 2011 09:50

http://tribune.com.pk/story/119782/shiv ... in-mumbai/

'Shiv Sena to decide if Pakistan can play final in Mumbai'
at least we’ve got religious extremists hiding in mountains…..they’ve got one in charge of their biggest city :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 18 Feb 2011 09:54

Roll the dice, once again

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Roll-the-dice-once-again/Article1-663689.aspx

The renewed Thimphu process is noticeable for its seeming surrender of the Indian demand for a genuine act of atonement by Pakistan for the 26/11 terrorist attack. This a price that India could consider paying if there was a relatively good chance of success when it came to the dialogue. So far, this evidence has been hard to find.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 18 Feb 2011 09:59

surinder wrote:It is worse than that: Not only is their home nation (the nation of the citizens of Indian Americans) supplying arms to one of the most corrupt, atankvadi nation, but the money earned by the Indian Americans goes in taxes to funds this.

Indian Americans have not made the anything beyond the meagre minimum against this issue (or other issues like evanjihadi issues).

But then, they are in good company: Indian Indians have done precious little too. They are all cut from the same cloth.


True. There are people like Mani Shankar Aiyar, Ram Vilas Paswan, Barkha Dutt and others who are supporting our enemies all the time. On the other hand, there are some people (like some (certainly not all, the exact proportion is not known to me) posters here) who "walk the extra mile" to see fairness in America and her policies.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 10:09

It looks like Pakistan doing an == on their terrorists with the Right wingers in India is having an effect on Congress I.

They have since started to bear down on 'Hindu terror'.

Who says that India is not receptive to outside influence hain ji?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 10:17

abhishek_sharma wrote:True. There are people like Mani Shankar Aiyar, Ram Vilas Paswan, Barkha Dutt and others who are supporting our enemies all the time. On the other hand, there are some people (like some (certainly not all, the exact proportion is not known to me) posters here) who "walk the extra mile" to see fairness in America and her policies.

Abishek Sharma ji.
I would say that, some of the netas (and by no means this means the names mentioned in the list above) are simply indulging in relationship building with important people in a neighbouring government.
This is an important aspect of statecraft so that when some issue arises, a phone call from one concerned minister / official in nai dilli to his 'friend' in the neighbouring country can get things done - and vice versa.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 10:19

We at BRF should raise our tolerance levels to such interactions between mantris and people in neighbouring countries, and the statements given at such interactions. A lot of those are statements are given by polite visitors to soothe the hospitality of their hosts and nothing more.

No need to holler bloody murder by such and such in Nai Dilli, each time a BRFites POV or aspiration does not seem to be met. This is some thing that is a little jarring, and indulged by some newbies mostly.

The people who are running this country have done so successfully for more than half a century and shall continue to do so.

My do naya paisa.

:oops: edited
Last edited by Gagan on 18 Feb 2011 10:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 18 Feb 2011 10:23

Fair point. I am willing to suspend my scepticism.

I don't understand what you mean by "running the country successfully". It depends on the benchmark for defining success. If you are saying that we have not lost territory since 1962, then you are obviously correct. As we set higher standards for ourselves, their success is not so visible.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby disha » 18 Feb 2011 10:29

shiv wrote:..Indian Americans, like Indians in India are allowed to have political opinions. I see many suggestions on this forum about the politics that Indians in India should follow, made by a slew of deeply concerned people in various parts of the world. After all Indians in India are more likely to bend political opinion in India. Similarly Indian Americans in the US have a better opportunity to bend political opinion in America. I would be grateful if Indian Americans would take up the cause of stopping the supply of US arms to Pakistan as a political issue in the US and not state that the arms supply is insignificant and/or harmless. That is as far as I am going for now


Shiv saar, it is simple only, there are some well-meaning suggestions for India and there are suggestions that will make Indo-Americans (and other NRIs) feel good about themselves. The later ones should be discarded if it is not in Indian interests and the former ones accepted if it leads to a win-win situation. It after all has to be a two way flow of ideas and not of gratitous advice! Case in point, there was a certain man - called a half naked fakir (by an arrogant Gora) who developed his ideas and tested them in South Africa before going big in India.

There are several Indo-Americans who do want to justify their stay in US by putting India down, you do not have to look far to search for them - you will find some in your own family. Every family has them. Everybody has some friends like that, and you will also find several RNIs who love to water down their culture. But that should not cloud things that are to be admired and to be replicated for Indian conditions. On a side note, Indians overall are moralizing preaching <guys>. They do not even spare their own here :-)

Once I was accosted in a store front in America and was asked why are two browns fighting? The allusion was why India and Pak are fighting with a racial overtone. The answer was simple, what US will do if Canada has a death wish? And aided by France and Britain (it has happened in the past!!!). The guy first huffed and puffed about how they will take care of Canada and all I had to say with a smile - why are two whites fighting? Pakisatan is an over militiarized and under developed Canada. In a similar setup Indians will wilt and go into an apolitical mumbo., our paki brethrens will immediately grease up and bend over. And that is India's problem, pakistan does not want to become India's whore. And America does not want to let go of its whore - this compounds the problem. For India, there is no choice but to make Pakistan its whore. On top of it India is not that rich - yet. And it has its own internal distractions - like governance reaching grassroots.

At the end of the day, NRIs will do what every other human incl. Indians will do - look after their own bottomline first. And once that is acknowledged, creative solutions will emerge - like instead of advising India to do aar-paar ki ladai before F-16 reaches Paki shores, a better advice will be to locate all its spares and servicing manufacturing in India. The maintenance contracts should be by Indian service personnel. And not just for F-16., but for every defence sale to Pakistan, 25% offset should be in India and all spares particularly critical ones should be sourced from India. Here is the lesson for Americans, sooner or later Pakis are going to be somebody else's whores - instead of losing total control, be a facilitator to its natural destination. NRIs should think about advocating breakup of pakistan from pakjab clutches so that trade can flourish.

For the paki lurks, you are grass - when two elephants fight or make love it is the grass that hurts.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby disha » 18 Feb 2011 10:35

abhishek_sharma wrote:Roll the dice, once again

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Roll-the-dice-once-again/Article1-663689.aspx

The renewed Thimphu process is noticeable for its seeming surrender of the Indian demand for a genuine act of atonement by Pakistan for the 26/11 terrorist attack. This a price that India could consider paying if there was a relatively good chance of success when it came to the dialogue. So far, this evidence has been hard to find.


Something beautiful happened recently. Bangladesh is co-hosting world cup and had a great opening ceremony with Shankar-Ehsan-Roy giving some more insipid music and the world saw how hardy rickshaw pullers are! Now there is a joker in the room bent on playing spoil sport and has to be talked into a corner. So that the events across Bangladesh and Sri-lanka pass uneventfully, nice time for the whore to demand some additional hafta. And BTW does not India need an international whore? How will it otherwise play in Afghanistan?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 18 Feb 2011 10:40

Gagan wrote:We at BRF should lower our tolerance levels to such interactions between mantris and people in neighbouring countries, and the statements given at such interactions. A lot of those are statements are given by polite visitors to soothe the hospitality of their hosts and nothing more.


Two points:

1. There is no need to show our best behavior to Pakis. Very simple.

2. Secondly, it affects public opinion. When our own leaders (or our own people) express pro-Paki views, a mango SDRE thinks that we are doing something wrong in J&K or in Baluchistan. For example, Ram Vilas Paswan said that the Indian Army chief should apologize for the death of civilians in J&K last year. I don't understand why we deserve such "leaders". Fortunately his party lost elections in Bihar.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 11:08

abhishek_sharma-ji,
I understand your POV, at some level I think no different.

But the only thing I would like to say is that as Indians we are not that overcome with jealousy, to lower ourselves to the kind of haramigiri that the pakistanis have displayed over the years.

Of course every person who follows pakistan has his blood boiling everytime our embassy and counsullar staff are brutally attacked by the ISI detail shadowing them, when an uneducated or a down to the core corrupt pakistani leader or babu displays his pakistaniyat (a BR euphism for haramigiri) when they interact with our leaders and babus.

The blood boils, but still our babus and netas push on. I ask why? I think there is more to this than meets the eye. What some posters blame the current GoI of doing, we've seen others of different political spectrum do the same.

Coming to your second point, what I think India needs is a unified and a refined approach to the way our netas deal with pakistan. They need to be fully informed about the haramigiri that the pakistani officials display all the time. And their dealings and statements need to factor that in.

But I will say that still there is no need to lower ourselves to their level at all. Those guys are bankrupt in every sense of the word - financially, intellectually, geopolitically. Their only refuge is in boastful histrionics ("badkiyan maarna" in rustic punjabi). We have many other tools to our disposal to use.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Anujan » 18 Feb 2011 11:31

This gem from TFT is not getting the attention it deserves from Rakshaks:

Ever wondered why there’s not a squeak out of the family of that poor boy Ibadurrahman, who was run over and killed by the speeding American Consulate vehicle that was chasing after Raymond Davis that fateful day in Lahore? Well, we have it from the horse’s mouth that Ibad’s family have been given four American passports and Rs 1 crore in compensation 8) and that they have accepted both the passports and the money. They’ve signed on the dotted line and agreed to keep quiet. They will be leaving Lahore for the US shortly. An important personage of the Punjab Government went and personally made the offer to Ibad’s family and saw it through, notwithstanding the government’s pious denials to all and sundry that “the law would take its own course”. Something similar also happened to the late Fahim’s family (Fahim being one of the men shot dead by Raymond Davis), except that they fell out with each other. Apparently, Fahim’s mother was reluctant to share some of the spoils with his widow, who in a fit of desperation killed herself :-? . Since then, the same mother and other relatives of Fahim have accepted the American offer

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby archan » 18 Feb 2011 11:33

^^ true pakistaniyat on display there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby AjayKK » 18 Feb 2011 11:35

It was stated on this thread a few days back that internal turmoil + tests + US pressure on Pakistan will result in another round of attack on India. The last time around 26/11 we had similar warnings.

US fears terrorists might provoke Indo-Pak conflict

WASHINGTON: US Defence Secretary Robert Gates worries about the future of Pakistan, fearing that terrorist groups might try to provoke a conflict between India and Pakistan to destabilise the country.

"I worry a lot about Pakistan. It has huge economic problems... They have a serious internal terrorism threat that is seeking to destabilise Pakistan itself," he said at a hearing of a Senate committee Thursday.


The article/quote avoids saying how "terrorist groups might try to provoke a conflict between India and Pakistan" to destabilise the country (Pakistan). Maybe, it is assumed/pre-postulated that a terror attack will take place which will "provoke a conflict". So, is it time for another attack before the next round of talks ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby AjayKK » 18 Feb 2011 11:42

Anujan wrote:This gem from TFT is not getting the attention it deserves from Rakshaks:

Ever wondered why there’s not a squeak out of the family of that poor boy Ibadurrahman, who was run over and killed by the speeding American Consulate vehicle that was chasing after Raymond Davis that fateful day in Lahore?


Err, Ibadurrahman who? There were only two Pakis killed...

Image

There was some mis-understanding earlier...

Image

I think the two shot at each other. One of them stole Redmond's Glock and fired at the other who returned the favour in true Lollywood style. Redmond is the witness to it..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 11:54

Obama's statement on Raymond Davis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT420EqG9do#t=41m17s

Turn on the "Transcript" tab just below the right lower corner of the video to see the line by line transcript. This starts at 41m17s (2477s)
[youtube]QT420EqG9do#t=2477[/youtube]
Can't start from the specific timing in the embedded video though.

The President:With respect to Mr. Davis, our diplomat in Pakistan, we've got a very simple principle here that every country in the world that is party to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations is -- has upheld in the past and should uphold in the future, and that is if our diplomats are in another country, then they are not subject to that country's local prosecution. We respect it with respect to diplomats who are here. We expect Pakistan, that's a signatory and recognize Mr. Davis as a diplomat, to abide by the same convention. And the reason this is an important principle is if it starts being fair game on our ambassadors around the world, including in dangerous places, where we may have differences with those governments, and our ambassadors or our various embassy personnel are having to deliver tough messages to countries where we disagree with them on X, Y, Z, and they start being vulnerable to prosecution locally, that's untenable. It means they can't do their job. And that's why we respect these conventions, and every country should as well. So we're going to be continuing to work with the Pakistani government to get this person released. And obviously part of -- for those who aren't familiar with the background on this, a couple of Pakistanis were killed in a incident between Mr. Davis within -- in Pakistan. So obviously, we're concerned about the loss of life. We're not callous about that. But there's a broader principle at stake that I think we have to uphold.
The Press: How serious have your threats been to the Pakistani government if they don't hand him over?
The President: Well, I'm not going to discuss the specific exchanges that we've had. But we've been very firm about this being an important priority.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby Gagan » 18 Feb 2011 12:07

We already know from Musharraf what Pakistani women are willing to do to get Canadian visas.

Now we know what they are willing to do to get US visas.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 18 Feb 2011 16:26

WTF?
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/why-p ... 110217.htm

The two-day India visit by Islamic hardliner and Pakistan's Jamiat-ul-Islami chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman is believed to be aimed at reinforcing the anti-Vastanvi forces at the Darul-Uloom Deoband seminary in Uttar Pradesh, where the recently appointed vice chancellor Ghulam Mohammad Vastanvi had drawn much flak for praising Narendra Modi's governance in Gujarat.


Ostensibly, Rehman was in Deoband and New Delhi [ Images ] earlier this week to broker peace between the two warring factions of Indian Jamiat-Ulema-e-Hind led by rival Madnis -- uncle Arshad Madni and nephew Mahmood.

However, informed sources at Deoband suspect that the Pakistani cleric's 'real intent behind bringing the Madnis together was to strengthen the anti-Vastanvi lobby.'

Vastanvi's fate is to be decided at a meeting of Deoband's 'Majlis-e-Shoora', the highest decision making body of the institution on February 23.


Support from a Paki should automatically disqualify that side. I hope that the desi Muslims defeat this, simply on that principle.


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