2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

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GuruPrabhu
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby GuruPrabhu » 21 Mar 2011 01:29

chaanakya wrote:Unfortunately Fukushima has prised open the debate and tilted it in favour of Anti nuk group. Where as one can argue that fukushima demonstrated highest safety standard and skilfull management of disaster due to tsunami and quake.


Your sentence that started with "whereas" ended without a phrase to complete it. As Srikumar Bannerjee said in that video, "4 trains got washed away and all passengers are missing, yet they focus only on the nuke plants." Sure enough, why isn't the media braying about how Japanese Railways are unsafe and should be shut down? It is because they think they understand railways and nukes are black magic. There is a book on this phenomenon that I can not recall at the moment -- "fearing the invisible" or something like that.

As for your contention that nuclear damage is "irreversible", Boss, let us hear your ideas on how you plan to reverse the damage caused by burning fossil fuels.

Perhaps It is time for India to review its nuclear policy ( I know I am opening pandora's box) and look for indigenously developed nuk cycle which uses natural uranium +FBR + BR +thorium in three stage - closed cycle mode rather than open cycle as recommended in above report.


What has three stage got to do with a tsunami knocking out backup power for circulating water in a tank storing spent fuel? Is the spent fuel in the 3-cycle naturally cool and a tonic for your health?

May as well start to review Indian policy on "price of tea in china and its correlation to monkeys coughing in the amazon".

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby GuruPrabhu » 21 Mar 2011 01:41

GuruPrabhu wrote: It is because they think they understand railways and nukes are black magic. There is a book on this phenomenon that I can not recall at the moment -- "fearing the invisible" or something like that.


Found it. Check it out. Its funny!

http://www.amazon.com/How-Risky-Really- ... 527&sr=1-4

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Mar 2011 01:49

you know, lalchix worry about fall out too, but only from items of clothing...

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby vina » 21 Mar 2011 06:38

Lalmohan wrote:you know, lalchix worry about fall out too, but only from items of clothing...


Well, as per Islamic punishments for that kind of apostasy like letting clothes fall off, Lalchix have to be buried in sand and entombed in concrete! :eek: :eek:

That is "inevitable" and in fact the Taliban are already making preparations for that, it is just that they are not letting you on. How do I know ? Because Al-Qaeda did such a thing in Sudan in 1987 when they went Kaboom! and hence it must be so with Lachix as well!

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby GuruPrabhu » 21 Mar 2011 08:49

but, but, are lalchix equipped with passive cooling? or, an active candu visa circulation is required?

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 21 Mar 2011 08:58

chaanakya wrote:I am no expert in this area so tell me how do I manage my fears when safer alternatives might be available.


Absolutely. Valid question. We need to keep our eyes wide open.

-----
Japan Makes Progress at Nuclear Reactors, but Contamination Spreads

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/world/asia/21japan.html

Japan appeared to make moderate progress in stabilizing some of the nuclear reactors at the stricken Fukushima Daiichi power plant on Sunday, but at the same time it disclosed new signs of radioactive contamination in agricultural produce and livestock.

The government said it was barring all shipments of milk from Fukushima Prefecture and shipments of spinach from Ibaraki Prefecture, after finding new cases of above-normal levels of radioactive elements in milk and several vegetables.

Relatively high levels were also found in spinach from Tochigi and Gunma Prefectures to the west, canola from Gunma Prefecture and chrysanthemum greens from Chiba Prefecture, south of Ibaraki.

The emergency efforts to mitigate damage at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station, meanwhile, brought some notes of relief in the face of persistently dire conditions. The authorities said they had restored water pumps to two damaged reactors, Nos. 5 and 6, that were not of central concern, putting them under control in a state known as “cold shutdown.”

But another reactor that has proved more worrisome, No. 3, continued to bedevil engineers.

The Tokyo Electric Power Company, which runs the plant, appeared to have experienced a serious setback as officials said that pressure buildup at the ravaged No. 3 reactor would require the venting of more radioactive gases.

But at a news conference a few hours later, officials from the power company said that the pressure had stabilized and that they had decided they did not need to release the gases immediately, which would have heightened worries about wider contamination among the population. They said they were unsure what had caused the pressure to rise, highlighting the uncertainty engineers must still grapple with at Fukushima.

The power company also said that on Sunday workers injected 40 tons of water into the storage pool containing spent fuel rods at Unit No. 2, and that firefighters began spraying water into the pool at Unit No. 4. On Saturday, firefighters sprayed water at the storage pool of Unit No. 3 for more than 13 hours.

The reactors placed in cold shutdown were already shut down before the earthquake and the tsunami struck on March 11, posing less of a risk than the other reactors at the plant. But their cooling systems were knocked out, and the fuel rods left inside the reactors started to heat up, together with spent fuel rods in a separate storage pool.

“We are getting closer to bringing the situation under control,” Tetsuro Fukuyama, the deputy chief cabinet secretary of the Japanese government, said of the entire plant late Sunday.

After connecting a mile-long electrical transmission line on Saturday, workers made progress in starting to restore power to the plant, which may allow the operator to restart its cooling systems. The government said that power was returned to Reactor No. 2 at 3:46 p.m. Sunday, and that other reactors were also expected to gain power early in the week.

Even with electrical power extended to the reactors, there was no immediate indication from officials that the damaged pumping systems could be quickly restored.

...

Workers were trying to avoid further damage to fuel rods in the reactor cores of Nos. 1, 2, and 3, and to prevent rods in the storage pools of Nos. 2, 3 and 4 from overheating.

Some experts project that the longer it takes to resolve the crisis fully, the greater the chances that one or more reactors or fuel storage pools will have to be abandoned, increasing the risk of a catastrophic release of radiation.

The plant remains a hazardous place for the emergency crews trying to stave off further damage. At least 25 workers and five members of the Japanese Self-Defense Force have been exposed to unsafe amounts of radiation, according to the power company. At least 20 workers and four self-defense soldiers have been injured, and two workers remain missing.

...

Mr. Fukuyama, the deputy chief cabinet secretary, stressed that although the readings were above levels deemed normal, they posed no immediate health risks.

“At current levels, I would let my children eat the spinach and drink the water” from Fukushima, he said. His children did not drink much milk, :rotfl: he added.

...

Spinach from a farm in Hitachi, about 45 miles from the plant, contained 27 times the amount of iodine that is generally considered safe, while cesium levels were about four times higher than is deemed safe by Japan. Meanwhile, raw milk from a dairy farm in Iitate, about 18 miles from the plant, contained iodine levels that were 17 times higher than those considered safe, and milk had cesium levels that were slightly above amounts considered safe.

...

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby GuruPrabhu » 21 Mar 2011 09:10

abhishek,

did you read Amber's analysis of these radiation levels in banana equivalents?

any report that does not refer to quantitative standards is bogus. it is unfortunate that NYT, much like other media outlets, is indulging in this. for example, do you realize how much radiation your body absorbed while you were ROFL'ing at that report?

forget the meek, the silly shall inherit the earth.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 21 Mar 2011 09:13

GuruPrabhu wrote:abhishek,
did you read Amber's analysis of these radiation levels in banana equivalents?


Yes.

GuruPrabhu wrote: for example, do you realize how much radiation your body absorbed while you were ROFL'ing at that report?


No. My apologies.

GuruPrabhu wrote:forget the meek, the silly shall inherit the earth.


I will keep that in mind.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 21 Mar 2011 09:15

You can ignore my posts if you want. There is no need to increase your blood pressure.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby GuruPrabhu » 21 Mar 2011 09:18

abhishek_sharma wrote:No. My apologies.


I gladly accept your apology, provided you make it a point to study radiation doses and not indulge in scare-mongering by repeating NYT. Amber has done a good job of providing standards and dose equivalents. Everyone should study them and absorb the significance. Thanks.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 21 Mar 2011 09:20

GuruPrabhu wrote:I gladly accept your apology,


:rotfl: You don't get sarcasm?

Anyway, if you feel that NYT is biased then you should post more fair and balanced articles, right? Bliss if you do not lecture me.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby GuruPrabhu » 21 Mar 2011 09:27

abhishek_sharma wrote: :rotfl: You don't get sarcasm?


this coming from someone who reads sarcastic barbs as "blood pressure".

Boss, live in your ignorance of radiation levels for all I care. I was trying to be helpful and point to Amber's educational posts. yes, they are the balanced view that NYT is *not* providing.

But, I have no interest in arguing with you. So, have your last ROFL moment and be done with it.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 21 Mar 2011 09:34

GuruPrabhu wrote:But, I have no interest in arguing with you. So, have your last ROFL moment and be done with it.


Done.

----

Many articles on Japan linked here:

Issue Guide: Japan's Triple Crisis

http://www.cfr.org/japan/issue-guide-japans-triple-crisis/p24382

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 21 Mar 2011 10:18

Some Progress at Japan Nuclear Reactors

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2011/03/21/world/asia/international-us-japan-quake.html

Engineers restored electricity to three reactors at a crippled Japanese nuclear power plant and hope to test water pumps at the quake-damaged facility soon, the first clear signs of progress in tackling the world's worst atomic crisis in 25 years.

Japan suffered an estimated $250 billion (154 billion pounds) in damage from the earthquake and tsunami on March 11 that left more than 21,000 people dead or missing, while radiation leaks from the Fukushima nuclear plant have caused global alarm.

U.S. Energy Secretary Steven Chu, asked by CNN whether the worst of Japan's 10-day nuclear crisis was over, said: "Well, we believe so, but I don't want to make a blanket statement."

U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman Gregory Jaczko added that radiation levels at the plant appeared to be falling.

...


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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 21 Mar 2011 11:08

Steven Chu (Energy Secy of US + Nobel prize winner in Physics) Interview on Japan

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/03/20/exp.sotu.crowley.chu.cnn

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Mar 2011 11:08

GuruPrabhu wrote:
As for your contention that nuclear damage is "irreversible", Boss, let us hear your ideas on how you plan to reverse the damage caused by burning fossil fuels.

Do you claim that radiation damage is reversible. If so what's the argument.
As for second part that is not in the scope of this thread. Could discuss in appropriate thread. However report does give four options if you read that. Thanks.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Mar 2011 11:16

GuruPrabhu wrote:.

Perhaps It is time for India to review its nuclear policy ( I know I am opening pandora's box) and look for indigenously developed nuk cycle which uses natural uranium +FBR + BR +thorium in three stage - closed cycle mode rather than open cycle as recommended in above report.


What has three stage got to do with a tsunami knocking out backup power for circulating water in a tank storing spent fuel? Is the spent fuel in the 3-cycle naturally cool and a tonic for your health?

May as well start to review Indian policy on "price of tea in china and its correlation to monkeys coughing in the amazon".


Why you get worked up. Its just one of the options. And may be a better one and could prove tonic for a coughing monkey.

Whether one likes it or not, there will be review as the debate is open now whatever technical explanation given by nuk experts, which I don't question, not knowing much. I only said if safer alternatives are available we should explore that rather than listening to dogmatic position of pro nuks or anti nuks.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby Sanku » 21 Mar 2011 11:33

chaanakya wrote:Whether one likes it or not, there will be review as the debate is open now whatever technical explanation given by nuk experts, which I don't question, not knowing much. I only said if safer alternatives are available we should explore that rather than listening to dogmatic position of pro nuks or anti nuks.


I believe that the current events have unequivocally shown that the experts can not be trusted in the matter at all, having shown that they do not have the moral strength to function objectively under a strong conflict of interest issue.

That I believe is resulting in much khujli as visible by hand-wringing of many experts in public domain (numerous articles on blaming everyone for sensationalizing, when the reality is that the media is reporting very little since they are being given very little information to report)

A particularly telling news article (IMVHO) is as follows (a few days old), which outlines how the Japanese are coming around to accepting the full extent of issues.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eople.html

I believe we will continue to hear of the real extent of issues involved over many weeks to come.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Mar 2011 11:47

if and a big if, this is true then that adds to general mistrust.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/MC19Dh01.html

Reports about radiation sickness from atomic bombings were buried for years, and the government also tried to cover up information about Minamata, Kashiwazki and other accidents. The day after the Kobe earthquake in 1995, NHK was still reporting a death toll of only a few dozen, when in fact more than 6,000 were dead.


Also to put two accidents , one four train washed away and nother Nuclear plant disaster, on equal footing is incorrect, even if statement comes from Srikumar.

Will he do this for train accident

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiap ... tml?hpt=T2

Tokyo (CNN) -- Japan slapped restrictions on some food produced in two provinces around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant Sunday after high levels of radioactivity turned up in spinach and milk.

However, Dr. James Cox, professor of radiation oncology at the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, said the reported levels posed little or no health concerns.

"The immediate risk in terms of health effects are probably nonexistent, and the long-term risk is very low," said Cox, a CNN consultant.

Nonetheless, the Japanese government has banned the sale of raw milk from Fukushima Prefecture, where the Fukushima Daiichi plant is located, and prohibited the sale of spinach from neighboring Ibaraki Prefecture after finding levels of radioactive iodine and cesium higher than government standards, the country's Health Ministry reported. And officials in Fukushima halted the distribution of locally grown vegetables outside the prefecture.


Why the restrictions if they pose no danger. Just to assure a coughing monkey?? Don't they listen to their experts.Japanese are so obedient and disciplined that thy would follow what Govt advises. Why this panic reaction from experts of health ministry of japan?

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Mar 2011 11:49

Sanku wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Whether one likes it or not, there will be review as the debate is open now whatever technical explanation given by nuk experts, which I don't question, not knowing much. I only said if safer alternatives are available we should explore that rather than listening to dogmatic position of pro nuks or anti nuks.


I believe that the current events have unequivocally shown that the experts can not be trusted in the matter at all, having shown that they do not have the moral strength to function objectively under a strong conflict of interest issue.

That I believe is resulting in much khujli as visible by hand-wringing of many experts in public domain (numerous articles on blaming everyone for sensationalizing, when the reality is that the media is reporting very little since they are being given very little information to report)

A particularly telling news article (IMVHO) is as follows (a few days old), which outlines how the Japanese are coming around to accepting the full extent of issues.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eople.html

I believe we will continue to hear of the real extent of issues involved over many weeks to come.


Yes , we will , hopefully get to know the real extent of issues in coming weeks and months. Not closed yet.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby amit » 21 Mar 2011 11:50

chaanakya wrote:I only said if safer alternatives are available we should explore that rather than listening to dogmatic position of pro nuks or anti nuks.


Boss,

What you write or are posting makes a lot of sense. But I think in the Indian context the point in the quote above doesn't get the real situation. Let me explain why.

With the huge power deficit in India, we need to move on all fronts in power generation. And that includes dirty coal fired plants, hydel, nuclear as well as wind and solar. We can't afford to cherry pick on what type of generation we are going to concentrate on. We could have done that if we were either power sufficient or power surplus nation.

The problem with misinformed knee jerk sensationalism that goes under the name of analytical reporting is that it is trying to tell us that this accident shows nuclear is "haram" (the subtext is LWR is the most "haram", particularly US maal, but never mind) and so don't touch it and instead go for coal and every thing else but don't touch Nuclear with a bargepole.

That is patently a red herring and wrong. So while we can't look at a future (from India's perspective, I mean) where the only generation method is nuclear, until there's a substantive technological breakthroughs, we can't also think in terms of excluding nuclear and still attain sustainable power self-sufficiency.

Look at Fukushima from a different perspective. You have a 40 year old nuclear power plant built with GenI tech when we're already in GenIII. Yet in a Black Swan event of a massive earthquake and an unprecedented tsunami the plant and the reactors just didn't crumble and all the rods spill out. The problem started because the power supply was washed away, which was more a case of wrong positioning from a civil engineering perspective rather than a design issue.

Heck Japan lost 15,000 people in just the Miyagi prefecture, that's several orders of magnitude more than the total number of deaths that has occurred throughout the world due to nuclear power generation accidents.

Let's keep a sense of perspective.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby amit » 21 Mar 2011 11:53

chaanakya wrote:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiap ... tml?hpt=T2

Tokyo (CNN) -- Japan slapped restrictions on some food produced in two provinces around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant Sunday after high levels of radioactivity turned up in spinach and milk.

However, Dr. James Cox, professor of radiation oncology at the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, said the reported levels posed little or no health concerns.

"The immediate risk in terms of health effects are probably nonexistent, and the long-term risk is very low," said Cox, a CNN consultant.

Nonetheless, the Japanese government has banned the sale of raw milk from Fukushima Prefecture, where the Fukushima Daiichi plant is located, and prohibited the sale of spinach from neighboring Ibaraki Prefecture after finding levels of radioactive iodine and cesium higher than government standards, the country's Health Ministry reported. And officials in Fukushima halted the distribution of locally grown vegetables outside the prefecture.


Why the restrictions if they pose no danger. Just to assure a coughing monkey?? Don't they listen to their experts.Japanese are so obedient and disciplined that thy would follow what Govt advises. Why this panic reaction from experts of health ministry of japan?


Err, are you trying to say that James Cox is lying? Don't you know there's something called preventive precaution?

Have you ever tried to check why Indian milk products are not allowed into Japan?

Hint: It is considered that the levels of impurity are higher than government standards.

Does that mean that folks drinking Amul milk will just turnover and die?

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Mar 2011 12:28

Thanks amit for putting things in perspective.

I would like to run the numbers for power in India in appropriate thread to take this point further.
I understand that all options are open and safer options are more open than others.
Don't know much about BWR/LWR or PHWR or AHWR etc. These issues are well raised in report to US Govt for restarting their nuk policy. As you know they have not done any new construction save one refurbishment and one under construction.

I know that fukushima plant was old one and had troubled past. Yet it was kept running as that is cost effective to run rather than building a new one. That is what troubles me. Who will take a decision to close the plant before disaster. I know that one plant was supposed to be decommissioned soon.

No I am not saying that Cox is lying. or for that matter anyone else.

Anti nuk experts would also talk about preventive or precaution. I think "preventive" and "precaution" are two different set of actions.

No I don't know, could be because of high radio activity in food products or may be carcinogenic substances found such as insecticides and pesticides residues? Let me know.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby amit » 21 Mar 2011 12:29

Sanku wrote:I believe that the current events have unequivocally shown that the experts can not be trusted in the matter at all, having shown that they do not have the moral strength to function objectively under a strong conflict of interest issue.


I suppose this means all manner of non-experts, soothsayers, folks who sell sensationalism for a living and johnny come lately gyanis can be trusted with understanding what happened and is happening in Fukushima?

I still have that unsold bridge in my store room somewhere...
Last edited by amit on 21 Mar 2011 12:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby amit » 21 Mar 2011 12:36

chaanakya wrote: These issues are well raised in report to US Govt for restarting their nuk policy. As you know they have not done any new construction save one refurbishment and one under construction.


You miss the point here. The US can afford to take its time to decide what mode of power generation it undertakes because it is, as far as I know, power surplus nation and its economy is stable/stagnant and so there's no massive hike in demand for power.

Contrast that with India where load shedding is common throughout the country.

No I don't know, could be because of high radio activity in food products or may be carcinogenic substances found such as insecticides and pesticides residues? Let me know.


Bro, you miss the point. And that is just because something is banned or stopped doesn't mean that anyone consuming that would die or sustain permanent damage. That's the whole point. What Cox is saying is that the radiation found is not at harmful levels for humans. However, Japan has one of the world's highest safety standards in food. And hence its a precaution.

Do read AmberG's comparisons on how much of the spinach and milk you'd have to consume to be really affected.

Just because the Japanese govt is extra careful, doesn't mean there's a crisis at hand.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Mar 2011 12:41

Thanks Amit.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby vina » 21 Mar 2011 12:44

GuruPrabhu wrote:but, but, are lalchix equipped with passive cooling? or, an active candu visa circulation is required?


See, LalChix became be-sharam and shed clothing explosively and went "kaboom" and all the hot stuff was dispersed. No more concentrated heat in any one area I think to cool.

So to answer your question, the sand filled clothing and the concrete burkha on top is to restore modesty only and keep prying eyes and bad people from poking around only. There is nothing hot inside anymore and hence no Candu visa circulation is needed under the concrete burkha.

For further details issue pooch to Amber G and she can issue the appropriate fatwa after looking up the appropriate surahs and sunnahs in her kitab!

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby somnath » 21 Mar 2011 12:47

the whole "crisis" thing has really gone bizarre now - its selfperpetuating...

the "experts", on the other hand, continue singing a different tune!
http://www.channel4.com/news/japan-nucl ... scientists

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Mar 2011 12:49

GuruPrabhu wrote:but, but, are lalchix equipped with passive cooling? or, an active candu visa circulation is required?


insertion of fuel rods leads to increased heat generation, no?
now i know why bips sings beeDi jalai le...

meanwhile, i urge everyone to go look up the iaea website for the latest info
not out of the woods yet, but atleast a path is visible

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby amit » 21 Mar 2011 12:55

OK here's another sense of perspective on the radiation in food business.

The newly discovered radioactivity contained in the average amount of spinach and milk consumed in an entire year would be equal to the amount received in a single CAT scan, he said.


Statutory Warning: Take with a pinch of (non-iodized) salt as this is what the "experts" say. Wait for the true "non-expert" gyanis to weigh in with their assessment before gulping down a can of spinach like Popeye!

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby amit » 21 Mar 2011 12:58

Lalmohan wrote:insertion of fuel rods leads to increased heat generation, no?
now i know why bips sings beeDi jalai le...


Lal Mullah,

This is one scenario where I'm sure everybody is glad that there's no built in "passive cooling" measure which automatically kicks in on increased heat generation or violent nature induced shakes. That would take away all the fun duh! :mrgreen:

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby Sanku » 21 Mar 2011 14:25

chaanakya wrote:if and a big if, this is true then that adds to general mistrust.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/MC19Dh01.html

Reports about radiation sickness from atomic bombings were buried for years, and the government also tried to cover up information about Minamata, Kashiwazki and other accidents. The day after the Kobe earthquake in 1995, NHK was still reporting a death toll of only a few dozen, when in fact more than 6,000 were dead.


Chaanakya-san; there have many reports about cover up issues pertaining to Nuclear issues in Japan. Many have been posted on this and the Int./Indian nuke threads.

There are some more leaks here

http://front.moveon.org/wikileaks-japan ... ?rc=tw.fol

I think there is a large and uniform perception including amongst Japanese population that the Govt does tend to underplay the situation a lot.

One more here
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-1 ... dents.html
Last edited by Sanku on 21 Mar 2011 14:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby Sanku » 21 Mar 2011 14:27

http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/to ... me=topNews

WHO warns of "serious" food radiation in disaster-hit Japan

"It's a lot more serious than anybody thought in the early days when we thought that this kind of problem can be limited to 20 to 30 kilometres ... It's safe to suppose that some contaminated produce got out of the contamination zone."

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 21 Mar 2011 14:47

New Repairs Delay Work at Crippled Nuclear Plant

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/world/asia/22japan.html

Efforts to stabilize the hobbled nuclear power plant in Fukushima hit a snag on Monday when engineers found that crucial machinery at one reactor requires repair, a process that will take two to three days, government officials said.

Another team of workers trying to repair a separate reactor was forced to evacuate in the afternoon after gray smoke was spotted escaping Reactor No. 3, according to the public broadcaster NHK. However, no explosion was heard and the smoke was starting to decrease, NHK said.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby Sanku » 21 Mar 2011 15:12

Ouch, more ouch

http://www.thewesternstar.com/Canada--- ... +Canada%3A

Japan agency says crippled nuclear plant operator missed inspections before disaster struck

Among the machinery the utility missed were backup generators, pumps and other parts of cooling systems that the tsunami later swamped, leading to the plant's overheating and the release of radioactive gas.


Skeletons galore....

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby amit » 21 Mar 2011 15:20

Sanku wrote:Ouch, more ouch

http://www.thewesternstar.com/Canada--- ... +Canada%3A

Japan agency says crippled nuclear plant operator missed inspections before disaster struck

Among the machinery the utility missed were backup generators, pumps and other parts of cooling systems that the tsunami later swamped, leading to the plant's overheating and the release of radioactive gas.


Skeletons galore....


Seems everything is the operator's fault. The equipment supplier seems to be in the clear...
:)

But it would be interesting to know how an inspection of the systems would have prevented them from being washed away by the tsunami. :roll:

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Mar 2011 15:59

amit wrote:
Seems everything is the operator's fault. The equipment supplier seems to be in the clear...
:)

But it would be interesting to know how an inspection of the systems would have prevented them from being washed away by the tsunami. :roll:


So the location of plant was wrong??

I understand that plant was intact after earthquake and safe shutdown procedure was initiated. However tsunami inundated the generators, battery backup ( good for 6 hours or so) which prevented proper functioning of cooling system It seems all were on the same plane as main generators which were also inundated ( unlike kalpakkam where backups are on higher planes, though one can witness bigger tsunami to take that out as well). Once heat rose in plant the water boiled off and later hydrogen explosion created more problems .

I think Gerard has posted a pdf regarding accident which says small causes /troubles go on to create big accidents. One can't really say this one is the root cause . Its just necessary and sufficient conditions for accidents to happen.

I think it would be a good case study to determine all aspects of this disaster and future course of action to be taken. Such as new safety procedure, new design elements etc.

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby amit » 21 Mar 2011 16:35

chaanakya wrote:I think it would be a good case study to determine all aspects of this disaster and future course of action to be taken. Such as new safety procedure, new design elements etc.


Boss,

Thank you for stating that. IMHO from India's perspective this is the most important takeaway from this incident. And more important that doing "chi, chi" about Japanese management and the deficiencies, alleged or otherwise, of the GE reactors at Fukushima.

JMT

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Mar 2011 16:38

amit - what is the half life of a lalchick?

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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Postby GuruPrabhu » 21 Mar 2011 19:01

chaanakya wrote:Do you claim that radiation damage is reversible. If so what's the argument.


The argument is called nuclear decay. Sort of automatic clean-up. All this spinach-milk, gajar-mooli brouhaha will be gone in no time at all.

Carbon, otoh, once extracted from the depths of the earth does not automatically return to the depths.

As for second part that is not in the scope of this thread. Could discuss in appropriate thread.


Saar, please pick the thread of choice. I would like to be enlightened about reversibility of carbon extraction.


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