Libyan War

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MadhuG
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby MadhuG » 23 Mar 2011 23:03

Politics is India's best defense. Also don't forget the millions of NRI bhai log who will raise a cry at various capitols world over. :wink:

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby brvarsh » 23 Mar 2011 23:10

Not sure if this post better suits in strategic section or not but it is a mute point to discuss how India would fare against a full US might. Indian defenses were never built against such an overwhelming and technologically far superior force. US or Nato will never attack any country unless either it is isolated or has created a pro-US "freedom fighters" in the country to "protect". That said, nuclear, ICBMs, capability to threaten their interests in the region and a strong support group of friendly nations are the best deterrence for a country like India. Why do you think they so easily romped into Libya and could still not do it in Iran? ooth, India and US do not have conflicting foreign policies anymore either (other than interests) so such a conflict is highly unlikely to happen.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby saip » 23 Mar 2011 23:25

Look at the time line of the air rescue. How many aircraft were launched just to rescue two airmen!
Two Harriers, a KC30 Refueler, two CH-53 Sea Stallion helicopters launched carrying a quick-reaction force, two Ospreys. Amerikhan never does anything in small measure. Always in twos for backups of bakcups. I wonder how much all this must have cost. And now the europeans dont want to lead. :((

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/22/libya. ... tml?hpt=T1

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby ManuT » 23 Mar 2011 23:54

ramana wrote:I did protest when this thread was moved to this forum and the voices that replied wanted it to be here. I opened the other thread in response for war is extension of politics.


For lack of a better example, I am thinking this thread as a scorecard and the other thread as commentary. :(

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Pranav » 23 Mar 2011 23:57

brvarsh wrote:US or Nato will never attack any country unless either it is isolated or has created a pro-US "freedom fighters" in the country to "protect". ... ooth, India and US do not have conflicting foreign policies anymore either (other than interests) so such a conflict is highly unlikely to happen.


See the book "Breaking India" by Rajiv Malhotra and Arvind Neelakandan: http://breakingindia.com/?page=home . Particularly the summary at http://breakingindia.com/?page=sixProvocations

So one needs to be cautious.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Y. Kanan » 24 Mar 2011 01:19

ravi_ku wrote:and our army and airforce will be sleeping all during this while


No, they'd be hiding.

As we've seen with the air campaigns on Serbia, Iraq and Libya it's actually not that hard to preserve your tanks, artillery, aircraft and other mobile assets. Those things can be camoflauged or hidden quite effectively. The Serbs scattered a lot of tanks, artillery even jets into residential areas, forests and replaced them with decoys, which NATO dutifully bombed. The Iraqis were particularly fond of hiding jet fighters in houses. Libya's doing the same thing with its own armored units - pushing them into cities to hide from air attack.

When it comes to surviving a modern US offensive, the rules are pretty simple:

1) If it's relatively small and can be moved around, you can hide it.
2) If it can't move (ie: fixed installation) and the enemy knows where it is... it dies.
3) Ground units out in the open will be slaughtered.
4) Planes that take to the air will be shot down.
5) Surface ships are toast; submarines have a good chance of survival if they stay hidden and avoid the enemy.
6) The best defense is a good offense that ensures you won't get attacked in the first place: lots of nukes with delivery systems that even the US cannot stop (ie: ICBM's, cruise missiles, subs)

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby joygoswami » 24 Mar 2011 02:45


Raja Bose
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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Raja Bose » 24 Mar 2011 06:42

^^^It didnt get used in any war so far also due to the reason that its electronics and associated tech is considered so confidential that they dont want it to fall in enemy hands. I guess the designers forgot to put in a remote kill switch the blast the aircraft to its 72. :mrgreen:

The F-15s are going strong as ever and is better than what most countries have anyways.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Bade » 24 Mar 2011 06:51

Maybe Gaddafi is hiding in one of those COTS shelters underground. If he has built hundreds of these, with each able to hold a thousand of his associates, maybe he can survive for some more time before the coalition loses steam, rebels already on their way to complacency with external help.
Sales of luxe doomsday bunkers up 1,000% :wink:
The bunker, which is being built under the grasslands of Nebraska, is 137,000 square feet -- bigger than a Wal-Mart -- can house 950 people for up to one year, and can withstand a 50 megaton blast. :eek: Once completed, it will boast four levels of individual suites, a medical and dental center, kitchens, bakery, prayer room, computer area, pool tables, pet kennels, a fully stocked wine cellar and a detention center to place anyone who turns violent.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Prem » 24 Mar 2011 07:39

Singha wrote:i think there are limits to asymetric warfare. only guaranteed way is nuclear arsenal, icbms, huge economy and a pipeline of the same boyz toyz to match.
china has 1,2,3 and is working on 4
india has 1, about to cross threashold of 2 & 3 by 2015 and has just about started picking up pace on 4.
by 2025 we can consider our backsides safe but not before. china will be safe by 2020.


Somewhere between 2022-2025, new India Era will dawn . 2 ancient civilizations, India and China rises like PHoenix and whole world will be changed forever. The curerent decade is the most crucial for India.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby SaiK » 24 Mar 2011 08:25

why do they need the raptors for libya btw?


all these comm stuff is political hawa!

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 09:25

so far the limited airstrikes are having no impact on collapsing morale or organization in qadhafi forces. they have moved inside contested towns like misrauta where bombings cannot be done, and engaged rebels there. in urban fighting they will easily defeat the rebels with superior small arms and training, plus mortars.

in afghanistan there were no heavily populated towns to hide in when the taliban were being rolled back. kabul could have been possible but with indiscriminate american bombing, they lost their nerve and drove away one night. here it is different...there is nowhere to withdraw to anyway.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby shiv » 24 Mar 2011 11:03

Asymmetric warfare is the ONLY possible response to overwhelming military technological superiority. But "victory" can come only after many deaths on the side of the lower tech force - not least because "victory" may take 5 to 200 years :eek:

That is why an ability to nuke an aggressor if necessary. Change the rules. Get ready to take a nuke hit and ask if the other guys is ready for that. Let there be no "previous experience" of what happens after. I am sure someone will do that sooner or later of the nuclear-technological haves continue to use the latter while basking in the security of the former.

Deterrence is a state of mind. Once it s broken it is broken forever and may never be built up again. The rule for the weaker nation is "We lose anyway - so using nukes should be fine"

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 11:07

+1 to that. asymmetric warfare results in great human suffering and loss (afghanistan was bled white before the soviets left, same for vietnam) and works only long term and may not work sometimes - iraqi insurgents were wiped out mostly. it is the weapon of the weak who have no other means to cause pain to the attacker with lesser effort.

the holy quadrinity has to be in place
nukes
delivery systems to the enemy heartland and hypersonic naval strike missiles & recon
a giant economy diversified in sectors, sources of raw materials and internal/export mkts
a well funded mil-industrial complex

before that everything is maya.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby shyam » 24 Mar 2011 11:49

In the case of assymetric attack, what need to be targetted are the technology enablers.

When faced with heavy airforce and missile attacks, India should target the GPS satellites, jam satellite and other radio communication signals, and provide misleading signals to radar aircrafts. Once these are taken care of, big chunk of the threat will already be over.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby habal » 24 Mar 2011 12:30

brvarsh wrote:Not sure if this post better suits in strategic section or not but it is a mute point to discuss how India would fare against a full US might. Indian defenses were never built against such an overwhelming and technologically far superior force. US or Nato will never attack any country unless either it is isolated or has created a pro-US "freedom fighters" in the country to "protect". That said, nuclear, ICBMs, capability to threaten their interests in the region and a strong support group of friendly nations are the best deterrence for a country like India. Why do you think they so easily romped into Libya and could still not do it in Iran? ooth, India and US do not have conflicting foreign policies anymore either (other than interests) so such a conflict is highly unlikely to happen.


Brahmos will blow away the tomahawk bearing ships and any aircraft carriers in its vicinity. Air superiority over India is impossible. The most severe challenge to US is ICBM capability. That is why they keep on monitoring if INdia has acquired true ICBM capability and how advanced it is. Ground troop concentrations need to be dispersed and troop formations should be more flexible and agile,

Strategically they will want an upheavel in Kashmir, which they have kept on boiling pot on purpose as an excuse to 'intervene', next step will be activate all their nodes in Naxal dominated areas and then go on propaganda blitz on how upper caste bahman India is doing all these atrocities on the poor tribals of Naxalbadi/bastar/jharkhand/orissa etc. A whole chunk of eastern India will be bought to the boil and be given disproportionate airtime. I am sure they are making moves to this effect on the sly.

^^ assymetric warfare should be capable of taking out US GPS sattelites and electro-magnetic interference to jam radio & satellite comms should be enabled. Depending upon our level of R&D capabilities, a lot of assymetric warfar options can be kept open in case of any such eventuality. When the sum total of variables become too large to counter, it will make the most powerful deterrent for any revisionist superpower.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Gagan » 24 Mar 2011 12:32

Libyan Air War Targets

Military Airfields
Image

SAM Sites
All Fixed SA-2, SA-3, SA-5 sites have been attacked. Only SA-6, hand held SA-7s and SA-8 mobile SAMs remain
Image

Western Libya:
Image

Tripoli:
Image

Gaddafi's Lair in Tripoli:
Image

Major Airfields attacked:
Ghardabhiya
All hardened aircraft bunkers visible on the periphery of this airbase were attacked. The coalition briefings emphasized that the civilian areas in the airfield including the runways were spared to prevent collateral damage.
Image

Mitiga / Wheelus Aribase, Tripoli:
Image

Tripoli International:
Image

El Beida:
This is the airbase in Eastern Libya which is a major Mig-23 base. The Mig-23 shot down over Benghazi was from this base.
Image

Image

Okba Ibn Nafa:
2nd largest Military airbase in Libya after Ghardabhiya. It is a major SAM site on Libya's western border. Not sure if the airbase itself has been attacked yet. But if Pro Gaddafi forces are here, it is likely to be taken out in the next few days.
Image

Image

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 13:20

their airbases look quite good by indian standards - dual runways, lots of revetments...ghardhabiya had around 80 alone...the most I have counted in india is Hindon.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Mar 2011 13:23

the a-rabs have not held back the $$$ when building facilities, that is because western contractors are more than happy to give them everything gold plated for $$$+$
what they haven't given them is proper C3I and the human processes and capabilities to operate them at anywhere near the levels of a NATO force, let alone Unkil

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 14:04

yes I figure some italian/french/german civil contractor made a good amt from building all these shiny new infra.
Saddam had some great stuff too and good planes too - once upon a time.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 14:55

rafale and m2k airborne towards libya pics
http://www.thomasgoisque-photo.com/site ... def&id=88#

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby rajkumar » 24 Mar 2011 15:22

Lalmohan wrote:the a-rabs....the human processes and capabilities to operate them at anywhere near the levels of a NATO force, let alone Unkil


Very true a saudi friend of mine once told me a joke and it goes like this... 'there was a shop which sold all types of brains....Jewish brain...British brain.. French brain...& Arab brain. One day a buyer came to the shop.

Buyer: I want to buy the most expensive brain in the shop.

Shop Kepper: Offered him the Arab brain.

Buyer: Why is the Arab brain the most expensive.

Shop Keeper: Its the least used

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Pratik_S » 24 Mar 2011 18:00



$65 billion later, USAF doesn't have a fighter which it can use in war. Its safe to say that no country has gone 5th Gen yet. :lol:

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 18:08

another B2. which needs to fly from its base in mainland with support from 20 tankers because no base is lavish enough to support it except its home base and specialized infra.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby SureshP » 24 Mar 2011 18:13

1302: ABC anchorman David Muir tweets: "#BREAKING ABC's Martha Raddatz:#Gadhafi sends up first warplane violating no fly zone -- plane is shot down by French fighter jets."
1259: ABC News are reporting that a French fighter has shot down a Libyan air force jet which was violating the no-fly zone.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 18:28

must be a real loyalist to try his chances; or maybe the police put a gun to his family's head.

either way RIP - you never had a fair chance.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Surya » 24 Mar 2011 18:39

poor man

maybe a kid who loved planes and flying, grew up and joined the AF

wish someone writes these little stories of the losers of war.
well RIP

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 18:44

reminds of the serbian lt.col who disobeyed his orders and took off in a Mig29 with no support against a grid of F-16 and F-15 in the vicinity. was shot down by a dutch f-16.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 24 Mar 2011 18:48

Singha wrote:rafale and m2k airborne towards libya pics
http://www.thomasgoisque-photo.com/site ... def&id=88#

In a full frontal view the rafale looks remarkable similar to an F-16.. Or is it just me???
Also can anyone identify the weapon on the centreline of the mirage???

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Mar 2011 18:49

Singha wrote:reminds of the serbian lt.col who disobeyed his orders and took off in a Mig29 with no support against a grid of F-16 and F-15 in the vicinity. was shot down by a dutch f-16.


remember sqd ldr sekhon...

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 18:53

look at image 47. the M2k centerline has a dual rack with 2 x 500lb LGB. and a pylon below right air intake for LDpod. taking into account 2 fuel tanks and 2 aams, its total A2G loadout was those two bombs.

in comparison the rafale has those 'triple' pylons with 2 AASM on each for a total of 4.

in a shorter range more normal mission it could perhaps carry 4 more AASM on M2k style dual racks below the centerline...for a total of 8, 2 drop tanks and 2 aams.
Last edited by Singha on 24 Mar 2011 18:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Anurag » 24 Mar 2011 18:54

The Libyan plane shot down was a SOKO G-2 (advanced trainer, ground attack, counter insurgency type). LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soko_G-2A_Galeb.jpg

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Surya » 24 Mar 2011 19:03

LOL???

for what?

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 19:05

among lessons learnt, we should ensure our M2k upg gets those dual pylons! and any MRCA bird gets the rafale style triple pylon - tornado also has it for brimstone missiles.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Anurag » 24 Mar 2011 19:09

Surya wrote:LOL???

for what?


If you take a look at that plane you know why, the damn thing would have no chance up there.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Jeff Lira » 24 Mar 2011 19:14

French airforce is doing much work now, after shooting down the Libyan aircraft, it has now bombed the Libyan Airbase much inside Libya, Some western planes also bombed a major military base in Sebha, Southern Libya.
Gaddafi Attacked Major Rebel Cities

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Surya » 24 Mar 2011 19:16

all the more reason not to laugh at it - and feel sorry foe the poor pilot

You could send an SU 30 MKI and it would not stand a chance against this force.

Its the system.

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Mar 2011 19:21

they were probably hoping to see if they can sneak a slow n low aircraft into the air and hit the rebels with machine guns and lite rockets

yesterday saw footage of a line up of katushyas blasting the hell out of rebel positions... clear open air targets... looks like surveillance isnt total as yet

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby ManuT » 24 Mar 2011 19:26

X-post from MRCA



Needless to say, IAF will have to rely on the accounts of others, for this one. :((

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Re: LIBYA : No fly zone/air war thread

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2011 19:36

they have got a few JSTARS into italy now. might start scanning for such targets in a few days from patrol tracks off the shore. scanning is one thing but they need plenty of fighters in area to quickly respond and strike. in afghanistan at great expense they kept a few B1 and B52 on call loitering in the area, using their long endurance, because F-18 flying from arabian sea could not really hang around much.

I am thinking a couple of JSTARs off the coast and some loitering Breaper drones armed with 8 hellfires, operating from a fwd base near benghazi could be the cheapest and most direct way to quickstrike mode. a couple of marine ships with harriers would also be of help.

and they would have honed their skills well in NWFP :mrgreen: Gen petraeus needs to sign off on releasing them though...pakis must be hoping he does.


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