Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2011

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 03 Apr 2011 17:36

abhishek_sharma wrote:Some people were saying that there was no proof/evidence that MMS govt had worked on any "solution" of J&K. See here


The cable in question:
http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=08LONDON2968

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 03 Apr 2011 17:44

http://www.economist.com/node/18488344

Pakistani liberals have always taken comfort from the fundamentalists’ poor showing in elections and the tolerant, Sufi version of Islam traditionally prevalent in rural Pakistan. But polling by the Pew Research Centre suggests that Pakistanis take a hard line on religious matters these days (see chart 1). It may be that they always did, and that the elite failed to notice. It may be that urbanisation and the growing influence of hard-line Wahhabi-style Islam have widened the gap between the liberal elite and the rest. “The Pakistani elites have lived in a kind of cocoon,” says Salman Raja, a Lahore lawyer. “They go to Aitchison College [in Lahore]. They go abroad to university…A lot of us are asking ourselves whether this country has changed while our backs were turned.”

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby shravan » 03 Apr 2011 18:01

Five killed in Sakhi Sarwar Shrine: rescue sources

D.G. KHAN: At least five people were killed and more than 30 people in a blast near Sakhi Sarwar Shrine, Geo News reported on Sunday.

The blast occurred near the main gate of Shrine blast.
Last edited by shravan on 03 Apr 2011 18:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 03 Apr 2011 18:04

http://criticalppp.com/archives/45342

Led by the 56 members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), the U.N.’s Human Rights Council has passed a resolution against the “defamation of religions” every year since 1999. The OIC, which is represented by Pakistan at the Council, says the resolution is critical for “the defense of Islam” and to combat “Islamophobia” in the West......
....

This year, to the chagrin of the OIC and in consideration of the tragic events in Pakistan, a markedly-changed version of the nonbinding resolution passed on March 24.
...
Whereas previous versions of the resolution sought to protect “beliefs,” the newest seeks to protect “believers.” The three-page resolution, which resulted from discussions among diplomats from the U.S. and Pakistan (as the OIC rep), recognizes that there is “intolerance, discrimination and violence” aimed at believers of different faiths, but it omits any reference to “defamation” and denounces the advocacy of religious hatred and incitement to violence. It also calls on governments to prevent and confront such acts carried out in the name of religion.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Gerard » 03 Apr 2011 18:27

The Pakistani elites have lived in a kind of cocoon,


No, they are not pure enough to live in the land of the pure. They must enhance their piety.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby shravan » 03 Apr 2011 18:59

D.G.Khan: 32 killed in twin blasts near Sakhi Sarwar shrine

DERA GHAZI KHAN: At least 32 devotees including women and children killed while over 100 others wounded in twin blasts in the premises of Sakhi Sarwar shrine 45 kilometers away from Dera Ghazi Khan, SAMAA reported Sunday.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2011 19:05

A_Gupta wrote:http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20110402.aspx

April 2, 2011: Pakistan's biggest problem is not the threat of attacks by Islamic terrorists, but the nationwide attitude of victimization by foreigners. Everything, even the widespread corruption, is blamed on some foreign conspiracy to bring Pakistan down. Every country has some of these myths, but some more than others. In Pakistan, the conspiracies are numerous and crippling.


This guy has almost summarized my ebook - with some updates.

But what strikes is is this. It is amazing how the RAPE ("liberal elite") of Pakistan have inserted themselves into select western institutions and have influenced the influential people of the West including the media to imagine hat Pakistan is a powerhouse of moderation, literature, art and science. It is difficult to find more bullshit being swallowed than that. Pakistan has produced a miniscule number of great litterateurs or scientists - but yet the few Pakis who have gone (paid seats) to Ivy League colleges/Oxbridge etc have essentially hoodwinked the western elite who are a bunch or rich and powerful suckers.
All this might be expected in Somalia or Yemen, but not in a country of great sophistication which boasts an elite educated at Oxbridge and the Ivy League, which produces brilliant novelists, artists and scientists, and is armed with nuclear weapons.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2011 19:06

shravan wrote:D.G.Khan: 32 killed in twin blasts near Sakhi Sarwar shrine

DERA GHAZI KHAN: At least 32 devotees including women and children killed while over 100 others wounded in twin blasts in the premises of Sakhi Sarwar shrine 45 kilometers away from Dera Ghazi Khan, SAMAA reported Sunday.


Must be the hand of RAW/Mossad. Muslims don't kill Muslims :roll:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Vikas » 03 Apr 2011 19:13

shiv wrote:
shravan wrote:D.G.Khan: 32 killed in twin blasts near Sakhi Sarwar shrine

DERA GHAZI KHAN: At least 32 devotees including women and children killed while over 100 others wounded in twin blasts in the premises of Sakhi Sarwar shrine 45 kilometers away from Dera Ghazi Khan, SAMAA reported Sunday.


Must be the hand of RAW/Mossad. Muslims don't kill Muslims :roll:


Shivji, Why is that hard to understand. I think they are right when they say "Muslims don't kill Muslim's" cuz the one who is killed is always less pious and less Islamic than the killer and hence wah-ji-bull-cuddle.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2011 19:48

VikasRaina wrote:
Shivji, Why is that hard to understand. I think they are right when they say "Muslims don't kill Muslim's" cuz the one who is killed is always less pious and less Islamic than the killer and hence wah-ji-bull-cuddle.


Absolutely, The words used by Islamic scholars and apologists are invariably innuendo and rhetoric. It seems to me that this entire Islamic education thing places greater thrust on rhetoric and fiery oration rather than truth. Facts don't matter as long as the other guy i convinced by your words. That is how you find yourself listening to impassioned lame excuse makers like Zaid Hamid spouting pigswill in the name of Islam.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby arun » 03 Apr 2011 20:12

shravan wrote:D.G.Khan: 32 killed in twin blasts near Sakhi Sarwar shrine

DERA GHAZI KHAN: At least 32 devotees including women and children killed while over 100 others wounded in twin blasts in the premises of Sakhi Sarwar shrine 45 kilometers away from Dera Ghazi Khan, SAMAA reported Sunday.


What manner of more pure and pious Mohammadden exterminating less pure and pious Mohammadden in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is this?

A case of a sectarian attack with Mohammadden’s of the Shia sect targeting Mohammadden’s of the Sunni sect or a case of a sub-sectarian attack with Mohammadden’s of the Sunni sect and Deobandi sub-sect targeting Mohammadden’s of the Sunni sect of the Barelvi sub-sect?

The level of Mohammadden religion inspired violence pitting one group of Mohammddens against another is shockingly high for a country self-claimed to have been formed as a safe-haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian sub-continent :roll: .

Meanwhile the death toll in this particular demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan has climbed to 36:

36 KILLED In Sakhi Sarwar Shrine In 3 CONSECUTIVE blast , Two Suicide Attackers Are Arrested

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby arun » 03 Apr 2011 20:22

A few days old and not sure if posted before.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s love affair with conspiracy theories on full display. MEMRI quotes the mainstream Urdu language daily, Roznama Jang, as reporting that the earthquake in Japan was created by the US:

Renowned Pakistani Columnist Nusrat Mirza Accuses U.S. Of Artificially Causing Japanese Earthquake: 'The U.S. has Carried Out a Second Nuclear Attack on Japan'

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2011 20:30

arun wrote:The level of Mohammadden religion inspired violence pitting one group of Mohammddens against another is shockingly high for a country self-claimed to have been formed as a safe-haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian sub-continent :roll: .

Meanwhile the death toll in this particular demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan has climbed to 36:

36 KILLED In Sakhi Sarwar Shrine In 3 CONSECUTIVE blast , Two Suicide Attackers Are Arrested


The Emir of asses, Ayass Amir wrote 2 days ago
http://thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail ... 9295&Cat=9
If the religious parties still don’t make much of an electoral impact we have to thank the good sense of the Pakistani people for that.


Almost as a response to that is this dim glow of a llightbulb of realization
http://www.economist.com/node/18488344
Pakistani liberals have always taken comfort from the fundamentalists’ poor showing in elections and the tolerant, Sufi version of Islam traditionally prevalent in rural Pakistan. But polling by the Pew Research Centre suggests that Pakistanis take a hard line on religious matters these days (see chart 1). It may be that they always did, and that the elite failed to notice. It may be that urbanisation and the growing influence of hard-line Wahhabi-style Islam have widened the gap between the liberal elite and the rest. “The Pakistani elites have lived in a kind of cocoon,” says Salman Raja, a Lahore lawyer. “They go to Aitchison College [in Lahore]. They go abroad to university…A lot of us are asking ourselves whether this country has changed while our backs were turned.”


In fact I would say that the elites deluded themselves into believing that they were or so modern and oh so liberal that not only did they sit tight when Hindus and Sikhs were serially and virtually eliminated from Pakistan, but the brlithering idiots also thought their elections were free and fair and actually represented the will of Pakis.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby rahulm » 03 Apr 2011 20:46

In general, Pakis having realized that Pakistan is going down a bottomless pit, want to be part of the Indian success story. Be it IPL, movies, economy, education. Hence this "South Asia" nonsense. But of course they want India to hand over Kashmir to them.


True & accurate statement, all of it. In all of their persistent and focused efforts to attach themselves to Indian success stories, they still talk about a border less Kashmir, peoples right to self determination and they absolutely believe in it. Sadly, I am talking about the RAPE here who should know better so what to say of the hoi polloi?

Non inclusion of in the IPL rankles them a lot. There is plenty of admiration in Pakistan for Indian achievements in the last 15 odd years in all spheres including economic and social benchmarks.

Conversations invariably revolve around what India should give them (list of demands) and not what Pakistan should give up.

The recent sane voices emanating maybe just temporary accommodation (without them being consciously aware of it) from a position of weakness. The danger is if India does include Pakistan in its growth and success stories and help to stabilise the country, the old pattern of behaviour will re-assert, this time from a stronger position.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Gagan » 03 Apr 2011 20:49

Pakistan is scoring runs now after the world cup is over.

If only they had scored some big runs a week back. Their batting form is really down these days.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby JE Menon » 03 Apr 2011 21:39

>>the elites deluded themselves

Doc, they may not have deluded themselves. IMHO they knew exactly what was happening and what the issues were all along. The only thing was that they were milking it to their advanage, the best of both worlds as it were: totally in sync with the Western elite or sub-elites (more here actually) because of their preference for Western dress (especially the men) and Americanised accents (both men and women) and a thoroughly western education (both British and American). They blended in easily in Washington and London. Back home though, all they had to do was change into shalwars and they would simply segue easily into the role of feudal lords and ladies, served on by tens of servants and sundry hangers on. These slimy serpents knew exactly what was happening because they were making it happen, and they were lying to extend their sources of wealth and conveniences.

And there's an additional point, when their Western guests came over to Pakistan they were uber impressed by the fact that their English speaking, liberal lite hosts (only lite because when it came to their daughters or wives, that's where the free-thinking approach ended) gave them the whole "Raj" experience - with servants waiting on them, giving the feeling of "colonial sahibs and memsahibs".

There's another aspect to it. When these westerners (Americans in particular, the Brits are more plugged in) interacted with these Pak bureaucrats and generals, thoroughly Westernised in appearance and social etiquette, it did not matter what rubbish they talked - these fools at foggy bottom were always ready to believe they were more valuable partners and more dependable lackeys than any chap turning up there with a Nehru jacket and a turban or a mundu-veshti and an overcoat to cover up in the cold (no matter how sane and rational his chatter was) - plus we never were prepared to be their lackeys. There was that essential dissonance then, and it is still there now to some extent, but the mask is being stripped away layer by layer - especially because now there is much greater people to people interaction between Americans and Indians.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2011 21:56

JE Menon wrote:>>the elites deluded themselves

Doc, they may not have deluded themselves. IMHO they knew exactly what was happening and what the issues were all along. The only thing was that they were milking it to their advanage, the best of both worlds as it were: totally in sync with the Western elite or sub-elites (more here actually) because of their preference for Western dress (especially the men) and Americanised accents (both men and women) and a thoroughly western education (both British and American). They blended in easily in Washington and London. Back home though, all they had to do was change into shalwars and they would simply segue easily into the role of feudal lords and ladies, served on by tens of servants and sundry hangers on. These slimy serpents knew exactly what was happening because they were making it happen, and they were lying to extend their sources of wealth and conveniences.

And there's an additional point, when their Western guests came over to Pakistan they were uber impressed by the fact that their English speaking, liberal lite hosts (only lite because when it came to their daughters or wives, that's where the free-thinking approach ended) gave them the whole "Raj" experience - with servants waiting on them, giving the feeling of "colonial sahibs and memsahibs".

There's another aspect to it. When these westerners (Americans in particular, the Brits are more plugged in) interacted with these Pak bureaucrats and generals, thoroughly Westernised in appearance and social etiquette, it did not matter what rubbish they talked - these fools at foggy bottom were always ready to believe they were more valuable partners and more dependable lackeys than any chap turning up there with a Nehru jacket and a turban or a mundu-veshti and an overcoat to cover up in the cold (no matter how sane and rational his chatter was) - plus we never were prepared to be their lackeys. There was that essential dissonance then, and it is still there now to some extent, but the mask is being stripped away layer by layer - especially because now there is much greater people to people interaction between Americans and Indians.


+1
I couldn't have said that so well

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby JE Menon » 03 Apr 2011 22:15

I'm convinced that a lot of our problems of engagement with the Americans in the past (especially during the cold war years) came about significanly because of their inability to recognise that what you see is not what you necessarily get. In general, they could not understand or internalise how someone dressed in some traditional Indian dress with a big red dot on her forehead could speak as one with them on the value of democracy and commiserate with them on the fickleness of the voter or, for that matter, the poll results. They simply filtered out what Indian representatives said, no matter how elegantly they said it or whether it made sense or not. This was combined, often enough, with the fact that these Indians were saying things they didn't want to hear - so that was that.

The Paks, on the other hand, wore well cut suits and designer ties (they could afford it, they were often if not always part of the moneyed elite - unlike our people who had to get through all those bloody exams :D ) although they were not that selective about shoes (from what I've seen :D - sorry couldn't help that dig). The Pakis were often a shade or two lighter than the average Indian, taller, frequently less accented and sometimes even speaking with an American accent (or at least their kids did). What's not to identify?

By comparison, the average Indian rep was a bureaucrat (although we too had our share of moneyed elite types), perennially suspicious if not paranoid, neither black nor white and not exactly fitting into any ethnic stereotype (and to top that "Indian" meant a dude whooping with feathers and a tomahawk), confusing in their ideological positions where it existed if it did, never predictable as to their decision-making orientation. I mean, would you want to deal with one of these chaps if you didn't have to? The Paks were easier and always told the Americans what they wanted to hear. Not a hard choice there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Anujan » 03 Apr 2011 22:36

Most importantly, Pakis are good at "realpolitik" (radically changing their positions as the wind blows. Or "tactical brilliance" in BRF-speak). Indians on the other hand reconcile it with all the treaties signed, domestic laws, have a debate about it in the Parliament, consult a few bureaucrats, write heated columns about it, and make it an election issue.

This has happened again, again and again. Take Pakis signing the CENTO, Sending the Mujahiddeen to Afghanistan, taking a U turn on it during Mushy regime, handing out extensions after extensions to Jernails that US likes ityadi.

Indians ask them to F-off when they ask for forces for peacekeeping in Iraq and insert a liability clause in the nuke agreement (*after* debating it threadbare and threatening to down a government).

The reason is simple, Pakis are for-rent for American interests. Indians are in it for Indian interests. Ergo Pakis are perceived as more "friendly".

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Apr 2011 22:51

@^^^JEM. I beg to differ (slightly). Yes, the Pakis were TFTA and Ayub Khan came straight out central casting. Nehru, Vijaylaskhmi Pandit and VK Krishna Menon were not dhoti-clad pan chewing village dada types. Nor were the bureaucrats. They were all ICS types and smartly dressed and well read and spoken.

The real difference IMHO, was the attitude. Ayub wanted masters not friends but would accept either role if the PA got arms. JLN, VLP (she was the Indian rep to UN and later Amb to DC) and VKKM on the other hand were:

1. Openly dismissive of the uncouth/uncultured Americans—subconsciously aping the Brits attitude. This took the form of giggling at American pronunciations of English words
2. Carrying a chip on their shoulders about colonialism and losing no opportunity to lecture
3. Seen to be closet commies by Dulles (both of them)—reinforced by a national day of mourning in India when Stalin died (I got the day off from school I remember)
4. Perceived to be delusional given that JLN passed over the UNSC seat in favor of China and wanted to abolish the Indian Army.
5. Viewed to be implementing a 'socialist economy' forgetting that JLN was a Fabian socialist under the spell of one Nicholas Kaldor
etc.

If you go back and sift through the history of the relationship, I think you'll agree that these elements played a large role in shaping US policy towards India. It wasn't appearances it was silly baiting—the precursor of unrealistic 'strategic defiance'. FWIW, I heard much of this from my Father who was part of many of the delegations.

Anecdotally, VKKM was famous for one more (in addition to his 7 hour UN speech) thing: At formal dinners he would eat his rice/idli whatever and then minutes later his head would hit the table. He would regularly zonk out because the rice had a soporific effect. Perhaps Dr. Shiv might enlighten us on why this was the case. Anyway, it just added to his aura of weirdness.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby JE Menon » 03 Apr 2011 22:57

>>Pakis are for-rent for American interests. Indians are in it for Indian interests. Ergo Pakis are perceived as more "friendly".

Yup that about sums it up. Only thing is that the Americans are discovering with both alarm and no doubt amusement in some quarters that what they thought was a mistress is in fact a whore. And she, naturally, will go for the highest bidder at any given time. They are also discovering that the whore has begun talking about her own interests, because events have forced her to declare them or act upon them, and these interests are not necessarily those of the Americans.

By contrast, they've found that the high-maintenance Indians are stumbling along, willy nilly, pretty well and have managed "somehow" (there's that word again) to get their act together and everything but everything seems to be falling into place. And, whaddya know, these Indians' interests are largely convergent with America's own. Maybe for simplicity, the Americans in their foggy country studies should just switch the names on the maps - call the Indians "Pakistanis", and call the Pakistanis "Indians" from now on? That would make things so much simpler.

Just remember to come to the right country :D or you just might be handed your head on a platter, literally

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Gagan » 03 Apr 2011 23:25

JEM's description of the Pakistanis is apt,
CosmoR's description of Indians is more accurate.

JLN set the precedent of a long line of Indian bureaucrats and politicians who LOVEEEED to pontificate all along with the fact that India was one of the poorest nations, was struck with floods or drought, and which had to depend on food aid to get by.

The western world and europe had just gone through a world war, and were turning into national security states, and JLN was giving up the UNSC seat, talking of disbanding the military!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Gerard » 04 Apr 2011 00:11

The famous speech
http://www.un.int/india/ind29.pdf

Time magazine cover
http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/ar ... 02_400.jpg

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html
A few hours later, in the Kashmiri capital of Jammu. Puppet Premier Bakhshi Ghulam Mohammed formally proclaimed adoption of the constitution joining Kashmir to India—and in the process, gave the clearest statement yet of Jawa harlal Nehru's attitude toward the U.N.: "We are not bound by resolutions which are against our country and our interest."

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby svinayak » 04 Apr 2011 00:20

Cosmo_R wrote:
The real difference IMHO, was the attitude. Ayub wanted masters not friends but would accept either role if the PA got arms. JLN, VLP (she was the Indian rep to UN and later Amb to DC) and VKKM on the other hand were:

1. Openly dismissive of the uncouth/uncultured Americans—subconsciously aping the Brits attitude. This took the form of giggling at American pronunciations of English words
2. Carrying a chip on their shoulders about colonialism and losing no opportunity to lecture
3. Seen to be closet commies by Dulles (both of them)—reinforced by a national day of mourning in India when Stalin died (I got the day off from school I remember)
4. Perceived to be delusional given that JLN passed over the UNSC seat in favor of China and wanted to abolish the Indian Army.
5. Viewed to be implementing a 'socialist economy' forgetting that JLN was a Fabian socialist under the spell of one Nicholas Kaldor
etc.

If you go back and sift through the history of the relationship, I think you'll agree that these elements played a large role in shaping US policy towards India. It wasn't appearances it was silly baiting—the precursor of unrealistic 'strategic defiance'. FWIW, I heard much of this from my Father who was part of many of the delegations.

Anecdotally, VKKM was famous for one more (in addition to his 7 hour UN speech) thing: At formal dinners he would eat his rice/idli whatever and then minutes later his head would hit the table. He would regularly zonk out because the rice had a soporific effect. Perhaps Dr. Shiv might enlighten us on why this was the case. Anyway, it just added to his aura of weirdness.

This is a good reading of the history. The first impression which is still in US elite memory of Independent India is JLN and others and about their lecturing of anti imperialism. Only Nixon had read properly about Indian struggle and he had visited India and talked to independence leaders such as Rajaji.

Even in 2008 when the nuclear deal was being debated the US news media such as WP had article which talks about "Indira Gandhi as being obnoxious". Their memory of Indian leaders is imprinted on the baby boomers from 1960s till now and for atleast another 20 years.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby JE Menon » 04 Apr 2011 00:21

>>Nehru, Vijaylaskhmi Pandit and VK Krishna Menon were not dhoti-clad pan chewing village dada types. Nor were the bureaucrats. They were all ICS types and smartly dressed and well read and spoken. The real difference IMHO, was the attitude.

Boss, I never said they were not smartly dressed... but differently dressed. For me, a woman in a sari and a bindi (VLP) is smartly dressed as it is for you, or a man in a sherwani (Nehru - almost always after independence), or a bureaucrat in a "Nehru" jacket (VKK Menon - though he wore suits too IIRC)... It is the way they appeared to Americans. These guys used to put their aliens (I mean the hollywood UFO version) in Nehru jackets at one time :D. As for Sherwani and Sari, forget it - they dissonance was too strong. Remember also that their mid-level bureaucrats were dealing with our mid-levels - and our guys were bulging with moral outrage at various "isms" except "Communism" (for the most part). And they wanted to show their new nationalistic fervour in everything from dress sense to moralising sermons. The Americans, fresh from crushing Nazism and feeling their oats as a superpower, were in no mood for this stuff.

As for us having moneyed elites in our gora-facing bureaucracy, I said in my post that we did have them.

As for VKKM being a slightly weird, eccentric guy ... well no arguments there. Not to mention too ideological.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby ArmenT » 04 Apr 2011 02:34

Sakhi Sarwar Shrine blast toll climbs to 41
Link to BBC News article

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 04 Apr 2011 03:07

http://criticalppp.com/archives/45348
The town of Sakhi Sarwar was renamed after its saint while previously it was known as Nigaha or Moqam, a sacred place for Hindus. According to the Hindu mythology, god Shiva was born in Moqam and spent his childhood here.


????????

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Jaspreet » 04 Apr 2011 04:21

JEM,
And she, naturally, will go for the highest bidder at any given time.


Will she go with India? How much do you think it'll cost? Other than Kashmir, that is.
If what you say is true then India need only wait for an opportune moment and buy out all their disputes with us.
Interesting thought this - use money to resolve Pakistan's India problem.

I'd be interested in your comments.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby JE Menon » 04 Apr 2011 04:43

It's a possibility Jaspreet, but essentially it is blackmail or protection money - i.e. don't trouble us and we'll pay you. There's no way of assuring a one-time payment, and even if we could wouldn't that payoff justify their actions all this while? The same approach currently being used by the Paks on the US to some extent. Clearly, the Americans are being played for suckers.

Question is, do we want to go that route? I suspect not. Partly because the price may be too high (even without J&K in the equation), and in any case we want to solve the problem, not postpone a solution. The solution is of course the dissolution of Pakistan unless it stops its activities of its own accord and reworks its national identity (without charging anybody for it). I don't see the latter happening. So, dissolution is the only option.

How to get there is another matter. But so far we don't seem to be doing too badly. Still, there is a price to pay and we have been paying it in Indian lives.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby shiv » 04 Apr 2011 05:55

JE Menon wrote:
Boss, I never said they were not smartly dressed... but differently dressed. For me, a woman in a sari and a bindi (VLP) is smartly dressed as it is for you, or a man in a sherwani (Nehru - almost always after independence), or a bureaucrat in a "Nehru" jacket (VKK Menon - though he wore suits too IIRC)... It is the way they appeared to Americans. These guys used to put their aliens (I mean the hollywood UFO version) in Nehru jackets at one time :D. As for Sherwani and Sari, forget it - they dissonance was too strong.


JEM is, of course referring to the "Little Prince" effect - something that I suspected but was unsure of believing until I read exactly the same thing in a book called the "Little Prince" by one Antoine de Saint Exupery. It's a very small, great book and the Little Prince effect has been mentioned on BRF before:

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/littlepri ... cters.html
The Turkish Astronomer - The first human to discover the prince’s home, Asteroid B-612. When the Turkish astronomer first presents his discovery, no one believes him on account of his Turkish costume. Years later, he makes the same presentation wearing Western clothes, and his discovery is well received.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby partha » 04 Apr 2011 05:59

shiv wrote:
JE Menon wrote:
Boss, I never said they were not smartly dressed... but differently dressed. For me, a woman in a sari and a bindi (VLP) is smartly dressed as it is for you, or a man in a sherwani (Nehru - almost always after independence), or a bureaucrat in a "Nehru" jacket (VKK Menon - though he wore suits too IIRC)... It is the way they appeared to Americans. These guys used to put their aliens (I mean the hollywood UFO version) in Nehru jackets at one time :D. As for Sherwani and Sari, forget it - they dissonance was too strong.


JEM is, of course referring to the "Little Prince" effect - something that I suspected but was unsure of believing until I read exactly the same thing in a book called the "Little Prince" by one Antoine de Saint Exupery. It's a very small, great book and the Little Prince effect has been mentioned on BRF before:

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/littlepri ... cters.html
The Turkish Astronomer - The first human to discover the prince’s home, Asteroid B-612. When the Turkish astronomer first presents his discovery, no one believes him on account of his Turkish costume. Years later, he makes the same presentation wearing Western clothes, and his discovery is well received.

Thanks Shivji for this link. Hope to read that book one day. We see that effect a lot in our country, don't we?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Jaspreet » 04 Apr 2011 06:06

There's no way of assuring a one-time payment


If not a one-time payment then maybe a creation of a dependency by buying and selling from/to them on very favourable terms initially. This is something that the Pak mind is already afraid of. If most of Pak trade is with India and a lot of their economy and jobs depend upon India then
(a) in the first generation they will be less likely to send jihadis India's way.
(b) the second generation will do business with us more for business reasons than for not sending jihadis our way.
(c) for the third generation the major disputes of now will only be minor irritants. Imagine Kashmir being seen more as an irritant to a Pakistani company's profits than their jugular vein. By then the current constituency of war mongers will be replaced by "peace hostages" (not my term).

But so far we don't seem to be doing too badly

I think peace-overtures by the leaders of India whether they're inspired by the goodness of their hearts or by realpolitik is a very good thing for India. It keeps Pakistanis from joining together. The only time the Pakistanis unite is when they have a reason to hate India. By not thinking of India they spend their time doing what comes to them naturally, the reports of which we see everyday.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Prem » 04 Apr 2011 06:20

Wazibul-Cutlet !! Must be Ahmadi Author .

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... rom-Mohali
For a country that likes to wear its beliefs on its sleeve, and for whom it is an article of faith that nobody can predict the future, the astrologers, tarot card readers, palmists, numerologists, even parrots, were all trotted out on television unabashedly. Nobody gave any fatwas against this practice. All of them, without fail, predicted a win for Pakistan. We should now make a mental note of this and stop indulging in this habit for the future. The idea that there will be divine intervention on our behalf, somehow, because we will beseech the Almighty so much, because we are after all the chosen ones, should be countered with reality too. You have to be disciplined and focused to win and secondly, unanswered prayers have nothing to do with ongoing social and political issues like the release of Davis etc. There is just so much that Allah can do when four catches against Tendulkar are dropped. Besides, contrary to our beliefs, we do not have exclusive rights on Him.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 04 Apr 2011 06:25

For a country that likes to wear its beliefs on its sleeve, and for whom it is an article of faith that nobody can predict the future, the astrologers, tarot card readers, palmists, numerologists, even parrots, were all trotted out on television unabashedly.


I thought only Hindus were superstitious.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Naidu » 04 Apr 2011 06:29

menon s wrote:US tip-off helps foil attack on India Kabul mission, 3 held
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/us-ti ... ld/770036/
Five days before the India-Pakistan Home Secretary dialogue on terror, New Delhi had alerted Islamabad and Kabul to an alleged Lashkar-e-Toiba plot to target its Ambassador Gautam Mukhopadhyaya and the Indian mission in the Afghan capital.
Subsequent intervention by Afghan authorities led to arrest of what sources call three potential suicide bombers and the seizure of a truckload of explosives in the Wardak province on March 23.
On March 22, US intelligence agencies are said to have passed on specific information through security channels to India’s Defence Intelligence Agency in Delhi about an alleged Lashkar plot, that included some officials of the ISI, to use suicide bombers against the targets on Pakistan’s National Day on March 23.


Persistence of Dr.Singh? Sigh!


There is one thing about this that doesn't make sense: Isn't the US sitting in Afghanistan with a large number of military, intelligence and civilian assets? So, why do they need to inform the Indians, who in turn have to alert Afghans to take action when they have actionable intelligence? Why this round about way of dealing with real threats?

Something just doesn't add up here.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Vivek_A » 04 Apr 2011 06:41

Naidu wrote:There is one thing about this that doesn't make sense:


Security in Kabul is handled by the Afghan National Army and the local police.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Gagan » 04 Apr 2011 07:30

The US has deployed EVERY type of intel gathering asset at its disposal in the Af-Pak area.

I would assume that this Afghan attack intel has been gathered by phone - landline/mobile, wireless tapping and decrypting by the US.
The last time the Pakistanis carried out an attack in Kabul on the Indian embassy, the US had voice recordings of the pakistani ISI handlers directing the executers on how to go about the attack.

If the news is indeed true, the US has pre-empted this attack for now.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Airavat » 04 Apr 2011 07:33

Image

People identify the bodies of their relatives at the scene of twin suicide bomb attacks at the sufi Sakhi Sarwar shrine. The Pakistani Taliban and other militant groups regard the sufi variation of Islam to be tantamount to heresy. (Naeem Sindhu / European Pressphoto Agency / April 3, 2011)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby Kapil » 04 Apr 2011 07:59

8)
The Little Prince is a must read book.Read it at different ages and you interpret it in different ways.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2

Postby arun » 04 Apr 2011 08:08

Anujan wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/I-was-110-confident-that-Sachin-was-out-says-Ajmal/Article1-680098.aspx

I was 110% confident that Sachin was out, says Ajmal

"To get a chance to bow down to Allah on Indian soil was a big moment for me," he added.


arun wrote:Hindustan Times interview of Gautam Gambhir who displays a sound understanding of the malign nature of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Gautam Gambhir is an individual who is no Wagah Kandle Kisser . He wanted to dedicate the win against the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and thereafter the win in the final to the victims of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan fomented act of Islamic Terrorism at Mumbai on 26/11 which killed some 160 plus Indians.

Excerpt:

And those 100 million people would be desperate for you to win.

We are aware and will give our best. And if we win the final, for me, it'll be dedicated to the people who lost their lives in the 26/11 massacre. To my mind, a win against Pakistan and a win in the final and that too in Mumbai should be dedicated to those victims.

Do you think that will soothe their pain?

I am sure the win against Pakistan would have helped. Once on a trip to Jammu, I met some army men. They told me whatever we do, whoever we play; we should never lose to Pakistan. One of them was posted at the Indo-Pak border and was so emotional that he suggested that I should have a tattoo on my body saying, "I will never lose to Pakistan".


Read it All:

I play for India, I play for people of my country


Captain of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan‘s cricket team, Shahid Afridi reportedly has much to say about India.

Does Shahid Afridi actually say “Indian” or is this TOI’s attempt of bowdlerising what he said which was “Hindu” :?:

Indians not as large hearted as Pakistanis: Afridi

Not that it matters but I guess that Shahid Afridi is still upset with India for exterminating his Islamic Terrorist cousin in Kashmir in 2003 ( Afridi's cousin killed in J&K: BSF)


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