The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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RamaY
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby RamaY » 08 Apr 2011 21:57

rsharma wrote:Breaking Neuj from Hark Da Butt on Teetar-Bater:

BDUTT: Anna to break fast tomorrow morn say sources after a reported agreement on #lokpal bill. Shanti bhushan to co chair draft committee


So the Kaangress is suck-e-cess-fool in nipping the "EVIL" in the bud.. :evil:
If Da Butt is proved right, it is indeed a shame..!!!


Anna Hajare's activism is tracked similar to other "civic society a.k.a foreign paid NGOs" activisms. Everything is a transaction, which can be 'negotiated' and deals made.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby ManishH » 08 Apr 2011 22:13

Chandragupta wrote:Is the ground being prepared for MMS's resignation and clown prince accession?


I think the ground is being prepared to dilute public memory of recent scams (2G &c) under INC govt. Mr. Sibal kind of portrayed INC as being actively engaged in fighting this external demon called "corruption" - as if INC had nothing to do with the demon's good health and upkeep since independence :-)

At the same time, there's obvious takleef shown by BJP as they kind of missed the boat on not having been able to mobilize the public on this issue in-spite of vociferous protests in media + parliament (responsible opposition and all). It's worrying for them to see whom they view as "leftist" able to mobilize public opinion, that too in urban India.

Secretly, a vast majority in both parties would love to shove the whole Anna Hazare upstart movement under the carpet. None wants to jeopardize a source of electoral finance that is "corruption" today.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Samay » 08 Apr 2011 22:55

Here comes the expected one
People win anti-graft crusade, Hazare to end fast on Saturday Government on Friday night blinked in the battle of attrition with Anna Hazare by agreeing to issue a formal order to set up a joint committee for drafting an effective Lokpal Bill and the Gandhian will end his indefinite fast on Saturday
People winning ICC WC ,people winning the lokpal bill struggle, wonder what people have won actually ? More slavery :oops:

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby sugriva » 08 Apr 2011 23:03

But, what about when the same has been done by "elected" members time and time again, making a complete mockery of what this constitution really is. Shall not go into details here, but I hope you realize that this constitution that we all swear by, was an inherited one from colonial rule and the evolution of it over time has been a mixed bag (I am being very kind). Before we rise to protect the "constitution" a question to answer is, is it worth it? Mind you, the constitutional machinery and due process is exactly what the government will hide behind to avoid real and lasting change.


Elected members, by definition have to face the public at intervals of 5 years. So they are in some sense accountable. Where is the accountability of the lokpal. First time I am hearing that we inherited constitution from colonial rule. From what I know Ambedkar and the other drafters were inspired by the constitution of many countries, especially Ireland, which had also obtained independence from Britain. A lot of laws were retained but that does not make the constitution an artifact of colonial rule. I am not an anarchist and the constitution of India still has legitimacy and validity over me.

NAC, Sonia Gandhi - sound familiar? Our MP's and by extension parliament has been made impotent due to party whips, post 1987. Separation of powers between the executive and legislative are virtually non existent. Real power belongs to the one who controls the party. That person does not have to be even an MP!. What you allege above is exactly what we have today!

So your proposal is to go from one system where a few control the affairs to another where ONE person has veto power on how India should be run? As bad as the original system is this is even worse.

The least we can do is not blame the people who are bringing this to notice.

The hangers on in this business are the dangerous people from whom we have to protect this country and its constitution.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby ShyamSP » 08 Apr 2011 23:13

Samay wrote:Here comes the expected one
People win anti-graft crusade, Hazare to end fast on Saturday Government on Friday night blinked in the battle of attrition with Anna Hazare by agreeing to issue a formal order to set up a joint committee for drafting an effective Lokpal Bill and the Gandhian will end his indefinite fast on Saturday
People winning ICC WC ,people winning the lokpal bill struggle, wonder what people have won actually ? More slavery :oops:


Aha! farce as expected. Lokpal = Congress pols + Congress pals

"Finance minister Pranab Mukherjee will be the chairman of the committee that will also include law minister Veerappa Moily, telecom minister Sibal, home minister P Chidambaram and water resources minister Salman Khurshid as members.

Besides Hazare, those representing the civil society in the joint committee will be eminent lawyers Shanti Bhushan, Prasant Bhushan, retired Supreme Court Judge Santosh Hege and RTI activist Arvind Kejriwal. Shanti Bhushan will be the co-Chairman. "

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Chandragupta » 08 Apr 2011 23:36

Just back from Jantar Mantar and I can tell you it is a 'people's movement' that is sustained, managed & run by NGOs and Media. More than half the heads at the venue were Mediamen and NGO activists, only about 10-15% seemed to be curious mango people who were not involved in any action anyways. . The people taking out marches, shouting slogans or basically doing anything at all were all NGOites. Don't know what conclusions to draw. :-?

Added Later - News Channels routinely using the phrase "Thousands & Hundreds of thousands of people'..Bull..Not more than 700-800 people at Ground Zero.
Last edited by Chandragupta on 08 Apr 2011 23:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Akshut » 08 Apr 2011 23:38

Shanti Bhushan on the committee. A little about him...

In 1994, he appeared for two of the defendants accused of participating in the 1993 Mumbai bomb blasts case.

In 2002, he appeared as a counsel for Arundhati Roy in a contempt case against her in the Supreme Court of India.

Bhushan represented Shaukat Hussain Guru in 2008 for an appeal against his 10 year conviction for his role in the 2001 Indian Parliament attack
.


This is not good! :x

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby RamaY » 08 Apr 2011 23:54

Chandragupta wrote:Just back from Jantar Mantar and I can tell you it is a 'people's movement' that is sustained, managed & run by NGOs and Media. More than half the heads at the venue were Mediamen and NGO activists, only about 10-15% seemed to be curious mango people who were not involved in any action anyways. . The people taking out marches, shouting slogans or basically doing anything at all were all NGOites. Don't know what conclusions to draw. :-?

Added Later - News Channels routinely using the phrase "Thousands & Hundreds of thousands of people'..Bull..Not more than 700-800 people at Ground Zero.


The moment I saw the selection criteria I am convinced that this tamasha is by 2G for 2G on 2G. This system increases the value for Bharat Ratnas and other assorted awards. Who selects those awardees?

Using the current system itself 2G is able to undermine Parliament, State Governors, Judges (if not all), CEC, CVC etc., Now they are trying to take over LokPal also. We have some indications of that in K'taka.

2G trying to undermine the rest of the system to protect 2G interests. Imagine a couple of 2G candidates on the committee. All they have to do is to convince the neutrals in committee.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Muppalla » 08 Apr 2011 23:59

Is Lokpal bill a const amendment?

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby ramana » 09 Apr 2011 00:46

No.

Pioneer op-ed by Nitin Pai....

Jan Lok Pal is no solution
April 09, 2011 1:13:27 AM

Nitin Pai

Tackling corruption requires economic reforms and a popular re-engagement with electoral politics. We should shun the politics of hunger strikes.

The idea of a ‘Jan Lok Pal’ is flawed and profoundly misunderstands the causes and solutions of corruption in India. It seeks to create another chunk of Government, more processes and rules, to solve a problem that, in part, exists because of too many chunks of Government, too many processes and rules.

If the ‘Jan Lok Pal’ presides over the same system that has corrupted civil servants, politicians, anti-corruption watchdogs, judges, media, civil society groups and ordinary citizens, why should we expect that the ombudsman will be incorruptible? Because the person is handpicked by unelected, unaccountable ‘civil society’ members? Those who propose that Nobel Laureates (of Indian origin, not even of Indian citizenship) and Ramon Magsaysay Award winners should be among those who pick the Great Ombudsman of India — who is both policeman and judge — insult the hundreds of millions of ordinary Indian voters who regularly exercise their right to franchise. For they are demanding that the Scandinavian grandees in the Nobel Committee and the Filipino members of the Magsaysay foundation should have an indirect role in selecting an all-powerful Indian official.

The argument that people should be involved in drafting legislation is fine, even if it misses the point that the Government is not a foreign entity but a representative of the people. It is entirely another thing to demand that the legislation drafted by an self-appointed, unaccountable and unrepresentative set of people be passed at the threat of blackmail. If we must have representatives of the people involved in law-making, we are better off if they are the elected ones, however flawed, as opposed to self-appointed ones, whatever prizes the latter might have won.

The ‘Jan Lok Pal’ will become another logjammed, politicised and ultimately corrupt institution, for the passionate masses who demand new institutions have a poor record of protecting the existing institutions. Where were the holders of candles, wearers of Gandhi topis and hunger-strikers when the offices of the Chief Election Commissioner, the Central Vigilance Commissioner and even the President of the Republic were handed out to persons with dubious credentials? If you didn’t come out to protest the perversion of these institutions, why are you somehow more likely to turn up to protest when a dubious person is sought to be made the ‘Jan Lok Pal’?

But this is us. Given this reality, the solution for corruption and malgovernance should be one that does not rely on the notoriously apathetic middle classes to come out on the streets. The solution is to take away the powers of discretion, the powers of rent-seeking from the Government and restore it back to the people. This is the idea of economic freedom. Societies with greater economic freedom have lower corruption. I have long argued that we are in this mess because we have been denied Reforms 2.0.

How can we have Reforms 2.0 if “those politicians” are unwilling to implement them? The answer is simple: By voting. Economic reforms are not on anyone’s political agenda because those who are most likely to benefit from them do not vote, and do not vote strategically. At this point, it is usual to hear loud protests about how voting does not work, most often by those who do not vote. This flies in the face of empirical evidence — when hundreds of millions of people turn up to vote. If it were not working for them, why would they be voting? They might not be demanding Reforms 2.0, but something else, and are getting what they want. Instead of ephemeral displays of outrage — what happened to those post-26/11 candle-light vigils?— it is engagement in the electoral process that is necessary. There are some innovative ideas — like that of voters associations — that can be attempted.

There are no better words than those of BR Ambedkar on the place of satyagraha in India after the Constitution came into force on January 26, 1950: “…we must abandon the bloody methods of revolution. It means that we must abandon the method of civil disobedience, non-cooperation and satyagraha. When there was no way left for constitutional methods for achieving economic and social objectives, there was a great deal of justification for unconstitutional methods. But where constitutional methods are open, there can be no justification for these unconstitutional methods. These methods are nothing but the Grammar of Anarchy and the sooner they are abandoned, the better for us.” Ambedkar was speaking in the Constituent Assembly.

In my view civil disobedience in general and hunger strikes in particular must be used in the most exceptional circumstances where constitutional methods are unavailable or denied, and only till the time constitutional methods remain unavailable or denied.

Some contend that the system isn’t working, or has been so perverted by the incumbent Government that it is necessary to resort to public agitation. This is a dubious argument. Constitutional democracy is an enlightened way to make policy by reconciling — to the extent possible — the diverse interests, opinions and levels of political empowerments of a diverse population. Any other way amounts to coercion in one form or the other.

If we are to allow that hunger strikes and street protests do better than constitutional methods, then how would you decide issues where there are sharp differences? If two Gandhians go on hunger strike asking for polar opposites, do we settle the issue by seeing who gives up first? What if competing groups escalate the agitation to violence against each other? Should we condone civil war?

The working of those constitutional mechanisms can and must be improved. By us. The anti-defection law must go. India does not have a comprehensive law governing political parties. It needs one. Police reforms have been stalled for decades. There is a substantial reform agenda that must be pursued. By us.

However, the inability to implement these reforms is no excuse for resorting to civil disobedience or, as it happens in other countries, calling in a dictatorship of the proletariat, the military or the priesthood.

The ‘Jan Lok Pal Bill’ is not a solution to the problem of corruption. It risks making matters worse. Hunger strikes are not the right means to promote a policy agenda in a constitutional democracy like ours. The promoters and supporters of ‘Jan Lok Pal’ and the public agitation to achieve it are profoundly misguided. Their popularity stems from having struck a vein of middle class outrage against the UPA Government’s misdeeds. That does not mean that the solutions they offer are right.

I oppose ‘Jan Lok Pal’ and the politics of hunger-strikes as much as I oppose corruption and misgovernance.

The writer, a commentator on public policy and security affairs, is editor of Pragati.


To me it look slike INC itself took over the reform movement and misdirected it. Its like Mubarak taking over the protests!

They are the obejct of the LokPal bill and we have them directing the committee to demand Lokpal!
This way they win either way the coin tosses.

Nitin's write up shows the feelings of someone whose reform movement has been hijacked.

Hats off to the BRF member who predicted *the outcome as INC hijacking the movement to administer a dose to MMS!


* He wrote that Rahulababa will offer juice to Hazare and request MMS to please consider the people's demands for a Lokpal and save the Gandhian's life.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 09 Apr 2011 01:07

Shanti Bhushan was a Law Minister of GoI previously. But lets see if he will avoid getting arrested in the Contempt case that has been filed by the Hon'ble SC against him and Prashant Bhushan, his son.

"Civil society" seems as much of an euphemism as "intellectuals" are. Self-nominated, self-appointed, self-awarded, self-professed. And quite of a few of these are the agenda-vaadis who would profess that everything in democratic India is evil, but would nt mind using the same freedoms and rights that democratic India assures to bite it back. Question to Kiran Bedi, IPS: why does she whine about corruption when she is out of the establishment, did she do the same when she was a part of the establishment and if so, what are her contributions to reducing corruption when she was a part of the establishment?

The problem as I see it is that the agenda-vaadis are on a short fuse and would want to shortcircuit the evolution process of India. They have a rather shallow reading of history (every country worth its salt has had enough corruption including the US, see history of Pendleton Act of 1883 or Tillman Act of 1907). They have an even more shallower idea of what to do after a certain goal is achieved. Most of them are rooted in the anti-Emergency days when PUCL was born. The net effect is the conglomeration of assorted individuals into a civil society that cares for the human rights of its deprived. In reality, most of the folks are the suited-booted types with little beyond an urban take of India. There are enough NGOs in India which work for the upliftment of its rural masses without fanfare, limelite or even the moneys to sustain its operations over a long period. Yet all we hear about are the Narmada Bachao Andolans and the various Medha Patkars of India.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby SK Mody » 09 Apr 2011 01:22

It would be interesting to find some photographs (taken from tall buildings perhaps) that give an idea of actually how many people were at these events. Undoubtedly several news channels were onto it right from the beginning - which seems fishy to say the least. Interestingly, in all the four days that I watched "TimesNow", there was not a _single_ arial photo of the crowd. Only close ups - never showing more than 10 people or so at a time.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Chandragupta » 09 Apr 2011 01:47

SK Mody wrote:It would be interesting to find some photographs (taken from tall buildings perhaps) that give an idea of actually how many people were at these events. Undoubtedly several news channels were onto it right from the beginning - which seems fishy to say the least. Interestingly, in all the four days that I watched "TimesNow", there was not a _single_ arial photo of the crowd. Only close ups - never showing more than 10 people or so at a time.


From my post above -
Chandragupta wrote:Added Later - News Channels routinely using the phrase "Thousands & Hundreds of thousands of people'..Bull..Not more than 700-800 people at Ground Zero.


I asked a few guys around and all said that not more than 1000-1200 people ever converged at any given time.

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Question to Kiran Bedi, IPS: why does she whine about corruption when she is out of the establishment, did she do the same when she was a part of the establishment and if so, what are her contributions to reducing corruption when she was a part of the establishment?


I concur your entire post except this part - If somebody was a part of establishment and failed to make a considerable contribution to the reduction of corruption, does it mean he/she can no longer be a part of an anti-corruption campaign? As long as that somebody does not have corruption charges or an unclean image, I'd say it is fine to 'whine'.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 09 Apr 2011 02:15

Chandragupta wrote:
Stan wrote:Question to Kiran Bedi, IPS: why does she whine about corruption when she is out of the establishment, did she do the same when she was a part of the establishment and if so, what are her contributions to reducing corruption when she was a part of the establishment?

I concur your entire post except this part - If somebody was a part of establishment and failed to make a considerable contribution to the reduction of corruption, does it mean he/she can no longer be a part of an anti-corruption campaign? As long as that somebody does not have corruption charges or an unclean image, I'd say it is fine to 'whine'.

If someone is keen on throwing stones at a house, they should be prepared to document their credentials on the said subject. She may have done a lot of things, wiki lists quite a few of her achievements. But I have nt seen much in terms of her whines on corruption when she was a part of the establishment herself. She was just going about her job. So if there has been a sudden change of heart and an attitude to enact change, for someone in the establishment (of whom I am a major sympathizer), it sounds hypocritical. You cant piss on something you have been a part of all your life, once you have made a decision to leave the place. It just lacks integrity. That is exactly what a job-seeker would be told. Again, she may be Gandhi reincarnate, but the question still remains. The question will still be asked of Gandhi if he came alive today. Allow the people to be cynical, especially if being cynical of the establishment/government is also par for the course.

People whining about corruption and taking a position of being holy and wanting change should be questioned. Have you never paid a bribe? Have you never seen an instance of someone paying a bribe and said nothing about it? Even if you have done nothing about it in the past, have you NOW made a vow to not pay a bribe from now on? My case/opinion is as follows: I have paid a bribe in the past, corruption is evil, but these are problems that will course correct as more Indians get educated. Not educated in terms of a mark sheet, but educated in terms of ability to apply their education to life. Activism to stop the economic flow of this country is the last step that is needed to correct course, it will only lead to a setback in terms of upliftment of the masses. Given two evils of a corrupt government vs. a hyperactivist "civil society", I will any day take a corrupt government with a semblance of power to elect it over a civil society that talks on my behalf and puts itself on a pedestal. Activism is ok as long as the activism is towards achieving a reasonable goal, hyperactivism is evil because it suffocates the one thing that makes India of today different from the license permit raj of the 60s to 80s.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Atri » 09 Apr 2011 04:17

Sad turn of events.. its too fast and too good to be true.. thank you for report from jantar mantar, chandragupta ji.. premature avalanche management, is it? before it gets too late and winds of west asia reach the shores of india, diffuse the pressure..

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Muppalla » 09 Apr 2011 04:46

The Government is extremely discredited due to various 1 lakh crore scams for an extended period of time. The task at hand is to create an anti-graft commission and get legitamacy and credibility back. It has media in its hand. So it found two popular characters that public likes and has credibility. They are Baba Ramdev and Anna Hazare. They do not want them as congress agents and hence it allowed them to be government opposers and in both cases they called them as RSS agents and other stuff. The public belived that they are really taking on the government. Using their inflitrated agents and the media they negotiated "real hard" with their movements and finally agreed upon a path for the anti-graft commission that they created. Thus comes the credibility.

Now we can just criticise all politicians a.k.a BJP and RSS but the default INC can be pardoned because of the freshly acquired credibility. The beauty is that even the ever observant Sanku :) (in case of Ramdev baba), consistent anti-EVM and anti-graft campaigner Pranav (in case of Hazare) also fell in the trap. Now extrapolate this to India. How many folks may have fallen in the trap. That is the masterstroke of INC on the path towards 2014. Learn to live under the shadows of INC. Anti-corruption is a hawa and hot air onlee.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Nandu » 09 Apr 2011 04:54

@acorn's blog post on why he is against the bill.

http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2011/0 ... r-strikes/

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Pranav » 09 Apr 2011 05:33

Muppalla wrote:The Government is extremely discredited due to various 1 lakh crore scams for an extended period of time. The task at hand is to create an anti-graft commission and get legitamacy and credibility back. It has media in its hand. So it found two popular characters that public likes and has credibility. They are Baba Ramdev and Anna Hazare. They do not want them as congress agents and hence it allowed them to be government opposers and in both cases they called them as RSS agents and other stuff. The public belived that they are really taking on the government. Using their inflitrated agents and the media they negotiated "real hard" with their movements and finally agreed upon a path for the anti-graft commission that they created. Thus comes the credibility.

Now we can just criticise all politicians a.k.a BJP and RSS but the default INC can be pardoned because of the freshly acquired credibility. The beauty is that even the ever observant Sanku :) (in case of Ramdev baba), consistent anti-EVM and anti-graft campaigner Pranav (in case of Hazare) also fell in the trap. Now extrapolate this to India. How many folks may have fallen in the trap. That is the masterstroke of INC on the path towards 2014. Learn to live under the shadows of INC. Anti-corruption is a hawa and hot air onlee.


Muppalla ji, all of that is just speculation! Hazare has a track record - he was the pioneering force behind the RTI Act. What we see is that the official activists and the beautiful people of the NAC type are quite disdainful of Hazare & Co.

Having gone through the draft proposed, and criticisms thereof, I can say that with some modifications, it will be a good thing. See my earlier detailed analysis.

And yes, people (not addressed to you specifically) need to stop making wild claims that the government is legitimate or that India is a functioning democracy. What we know is that EVMs are riggable, the political class is mostly immoral, and that there have been a large number of suspicious malfunctions with the EVMs.
Last edited by Pranav on 09 Apr 2011 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Pranav » 09 Apr 2011 06:38

I think this article from the Pioneer will give some clarity as regards who has been in charge of the Anna Hazare campaign:

Hazare shows who is boss
April 09, 2011 7:07:23 AM

Sidharth Mishra/Parvaiz Sultan | New Delhi

On day four of the fast in support of the Jan Lokpal Bill, Kisan Baburao Hazare took firm control of the movement in his hands deciding on the contours of the negotiated settlement with the Government. Setting aside rivalry between the second rung leaders of the movement, Hazare had held back the names of the people who would be there on the committee as nominees of the civil society.

The day began with former cop Kiran Bedi showing up at the dharna site and RTI activist Arvind Kejriwal ‘clarifying’ that there was no difference of opinion among the negotiators and that Bedi was not present for two days due to poor health. However, no sooner than the announcement was made, Swami Agnivesh, another key person of the movement, broke ranks and went to meet Congress leaders all alone to find a solution.

With Government toughening its stand on Thursday, Hazare realised that there was need to give a push lest it gets mired in internal differences. It was on his intervention that Swami Ramdev, who had till now kept away from the dharna site, agreed to come and provide requisite momentum. Though Ramdev’s volunteers have been integral to the movement, the Yoga Guru had been maintaining distance.

With crowd swelling, a more confident Hazare by the evening decided to take the proceedings in his own hands. He ensured that Kiran Bedi joined Kejriwal and Agnivesh for the third round of talks with Government negotiators Kapil Sibal, Veerappa Moily and Salman Khursheed. With the negotiators away, Hazare addressed the media all alone at 6 pm and made his agenda clear that he was ready for a negotiated settlement but respectable to both the Government and the agitators.

When it was pointed out to him about the infighting, he said, “Movement is important. Both Kejriwal and Agnivesh can leave if they cannot sink their differences.”

He also made amply clear his affection for Ramdev and skirted a question on how did he allow the Yoga Guru, whose intention to join politics is a known fact, share dais with him.

In defending the Yoga Guru, he even became soft on politicians, “They have not come from abroad. They are after all our countrymen.”

Towards the end of the Press conference, he issued a stern warning to the negotiators, “I have conveyed to our team which has gone for negotiations not to bow before the Government. I ask them to hold their head high. It is not a voice of Anna, it is voice of the people. I have asked them to maintain their self-respect.” Thereafter, he went on to assure the crowd that he was in good health and could continue his fast for a few more days.

Late in the evening he carried out his warning to the team of negotiators by refusing to end his fast. At the end of the talks, Agnivesh had once again jumped the gun by announcing to the media that their role as negotiator was over and that Anna would make the announcement at Jantar Mantar.

Anna did take the stage at Jantar Mantar, talked to former Law Minister Shanti Bhushan, who was made the co-chairman of the panel, and announced he would give his decision on the Government on drafting the Bill on Saturday morning, making it amply clear who was the boss.

http://dailypioneer.com/330424/Hazare-s ... -boss.html

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby RamaY » 09 Apr 2011 06:52

Muppala garu,

Remember how NTR blunted the movement by sitting next to him on tankbund. ...
M

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Muppalla » 09 Apr 2011 06:59

Clarification: Both Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev are credible. I have no issues with them.

What congress did is very simple. It has infiltrated both these groups and as they are not politicians they just will not know or even do not know. For example what will Baba Ramdev know if a thousand deciples who can manage several things for him dedicatedly are INC moles. There are several seva dal folks in congress who are ardent fans of 2G family. These seva dal folks wear Gandhi topi and Anna Hazare will not know a glitz.

ShyamSP put is perfectly - INC was able to occupy both ruling and opposition space and is able to create this law and I bet it will be created in such a way that is either very helpful to coverup or will be manipulatable to be used only against Yeddi or Modi.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby sugriva » 09 Apr 2011 07:21

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Question to Kiran Bedi, IPS: why does she whine about corruption when she is out of the establishment, did she do the same when she was a part of the establishment and if so, what are her contributions to reducing corruption when she was a part of the establishment?


On the contrary she has used dubious methods to get a medical college seat for her daughter from Mizoram quota when her daughter was not even eligible for it. This was when she was posted as DIG in Mizoram around 15-16 years back. The above lead to much outrage in Mizoram and the then education minister of Mizoram had to resign on account of this.
Last edited by sugriva on 09 Apr 2011 07:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby sugriva » 09 Apr 2011 07:27

Pranav wrote: What we know is that EVMs are riggable, the political class is mostly immoral, and that there have been a large number of suspicious malfunctions with the EVMs.


Most banks have minimal security and are therefore eminently lootable. Most bank robbers are immoral and have no compunctions about looting banks. Often time bank security guards are not found at the time of the occurrence of a robbery. Therefore all banks must have been looted by robbers. :D

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Pranav » 09 Apr 2011 07:37

sugriva wrote:
Pranav wrote: What we know is that EVMs are riggable, the political class is mostly immoral, and that there have been a large number of suspicious malfunctions with the EVMs.


Most banks have minimal security and are therefore eminently lootable. Most bank robbers are immoral and have no compunctions about looting banks. Often time bank security guards are not found at the time of the occurrence of a robbery. Therefore all banks must have been looted by robbers. :D


Try harder.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby ManishH » 09 Apr 2011 07:39

SK Mody wrote: there was not a _single_ arial photo of the crowd. Only close ups - never showing more than 10 people or so at a time.


A semi aerial photo (somewhere in Bangalore)
Image

Original at: http://plixi.com/p/90565136

Even if political leanings of the some leaders of the movement don't match mine, I support them; simply because the movement is not political - how political parties try to deal/dither/hijack it may be.

A good cause should be supported in a bi-partisan manner. BJP has officially supported it - a mature stand. Contrast it to the immaturity of various groups who opposed movements just because they were started by BJP.

sugreeva: OT but great analogy ;-)

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Pranav » 09 Apr 2011 07:40

Chandragupta wrote:Added Later - News Channels routinely using the phrase "Thousands & Hundreds of thousands of people'..Bull..Not more than 700-800 people at Ground Zero.


Hmm ... as per this report, the number of people protesting in the small town of Vasco, in Goa, was 800 : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 921763.cms

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Samay » 09 Apr 2011 08:19

If we just look at the trends , slowly the media will wash away all the scam news and will concentrate 80-90% air time on anne-hazare/ lokpal bill and IPL .. this is how they managed the social-psychology before 2009 elections ...!

INC people are masters of deception against common people.They have used all forms of evils against the society since independence. They are even more colonial than the colonials themselves

Just create a managed crisis to kill a bigger crisis.


BJP and others are equally responsible because they know what game is being played and are behaving like silent spectators for reasons not very difficult to understand

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby ramana » 09 Apr 2011 09:12

X=post....
RamaY wrote:
Gagan wrote:... but if we want to progress onto the next level - seemless integration with the western system, then TSP is a monkey on our backs that we have to get rid of.


Gaganullah!

What seamless integration with the western system you have in mind; Geopolitical, cultural, economic, military, or banking? How does that enable India getting rid of the monkey on its shoulder?

If we agree that TSP is a creation of west to have a foot-hold in the sub-continent to influence Asia or constrain India or both, then no matter what India does, they will come to rescue them. That means even after a noo-clear dhamaka, west can come with a marshal plan to keep this piece separate and 'distinct' from Indian interests.

India is definitely making moves, but they are often too late too little. Right now there are three distinct Indias operating in the sub-continent - (1) Indian Raj (the 2G group), (2) Indian state (the MMS/Babu group), and (3) India that is Bharat. Right now the second India is working for the interests of first India. First India works for their own interests only. The third India is what progressing while carrying the first two Indias on its shoulders. Without destroying the first India and making the second India responsible and answerable to third India it is impossible to make any geopolitical games at this point.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Klaus » 09 Apr 2011 11:10

Increasingly feels like the mood on this thread is like this old gem originally stated by the good Doctor Shiv:

When the news is good - it's reliable.

When the news is bad - its not reliable.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Arunkumar » 09 Apr 2011 12:52

TOI doing what it does best.

The article more or less confirms that entire affair was for taking away the corruption initiative from the non-camp followers to the camp followers .

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby SK Mody » 09 Apr 2011 14:13

ManishH wrote:
SK Mody wrote: there was not a _single_ arial photo of the crowd. Only close ups - never showing more than 10 people or so at a time.


A semi aerial photo (somewhere in Bangalore)
Image

Original at: http://plixi.com/p/90565136

Even if political leanings of the some leaders of the movement don't match mine, I support them; simply because the movement is not political - how political parties try to deal/dither/hijack it may be.

A good cause should be supported in a bi-partisan manner. BJP has officially supported it - a mature stand. Contrast it to the immaturity of various groups who opposed movements just because they were started by BJP.

sugreeva: OT but great analogy ;-)


On balance, I do think that it is a positive development. The question is: Even after all the media circus, will there be enough of the general public who will pay attention to future developments as regards the bill, or will it be the usual culprits who will steer this forward.

The reason public attention needs to be focused on the bill is that ultimately the Lokpal will be an _appointed_ committee, albeit one composed of people generally believed to have saintly qualities. But nevertheless there is no guarantee that they will act in the interest of the public or of the country, unless the public at large (not just a small section) keeps a watchful eye on them. Short of that it is likely to become a platform for the usual "civil society" culprits to have their moral orgies.

Rahul Mehta's RTR seems much saner by comparison - because it relies on "a few good laws" rather than "a few godly individuals". I miss him on the forum. Is he staying away voluntarily or has he been banned? If so the admins might consider unbanning him - even if he repeats himself a thousand times - it would be interesting to have his views on this one.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Kritavarman » 09 Apr 2011 18:34

http://www.dailypioneer.com/330414/Jan- ... ution.html

If the ‘Jan Lok Pal’ presides over the same system that has corrupted civil servants, politicians, anti-corruption watchdogs, judges, media, civil society groups and ordinary citizens, why should we expect that the ombudsman will be incorruptible? Because the person is handpicked by unelected, unaccountable ‘civil society’ members? Those who propose that Nobel Laureates (of Indian origin, not even of Indian citizenship) and Ramon Magsaysay Award winners should be among those who pick the Great Ombudsman of India — who is both policeman and judge — insult the hundreds of millions of ordinary Indian voters who regularly exercise their right to franchise. For they are demanding that the Scandinavian grandees in the Nobel Committee and the Filipino members of the Magsaysay foundation should have an indirect role in selecting an all-powerful Indian official.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby SaiK » 09 Apr 2011 18:43

^^our netas will head to satyagraha.. and it is in our freedom history and a powerful tool. The corrections suggested must be done, but how we do it is entirely with voting power.

Now, who is leading the anti corruption laws? decentralization and better regulations can help. ultimately, it can be done only by fundamental changes to corruption from people's way of living. Zero tolerance to corruption must change at the grass roots level.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Chandragupta » 09 Apr 2011 19:24

SaiK wrote:Zero tolerance to corruption must change at the grass roots level.


That is the only way to weed out corruption and it needs an effort from every single one of 1.2 billion citizens of this country. Nobody is interested in that, they just want all the work to be done by a Saviour, forget all about corruption and get back to their daily lives. Not happening.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby vera_k » 09 Apr 2011 21:59

I suspect corruption started at the top of the political hierarchy, and the change has to start at the top as well. The grass roots is not always the best place to implement change. It took Hitler's death before the German population could be made to see clear to the other side.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Vikas » 09 Apr 2011 23:34

Problem with movements is that you never know when it slips out of your control and takes life of its own. Even if INC or someone else has sponsored or taken over this movement, the risk of letting wolves taste the blood of victory can come back to haunt.

My surprise is with the speed with which Anna Hazare has been built up and GoI has surrendered. Only Pakis ski downhill this fast.
Something surely seems out of place.A man like MMS who cared two hoots while whole of the country was being crushed with scams and inflation suddenly gives up within a week of this movement.
Moreover when the spearhead of this movement is hardly a known face outside his village. It was as if Govt was waiting for something like this to happen. This doesn't add up.
"If it is too good to be true, it probably is"..Those in UPA if are really concerned about corruption should have kicked out Pawar and Raja and co. way back. until a big set of people ends up in jail for life, I wont buy these movements. This is pure chai-biskoots whitewash for the Neta/Babu/Judge class.

So Govt provides crumbs to masses and all is forgiven, the same govt which fought tooth and nail to resist JPC on 2-G scam, same govt which has been denying any loot, same govt which was passing certificate of good conduct to Kalmadi, Raja,Sheila,Gill,karuna, Chavan etc. and now we are to believe that suddenly Govt had change of heart and they are going to let themselves be prosecuted by Lokpal.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sushupti » 09 Apr 2011 23:41

Times are a changing

Anna Hazare has become the pulse of the youth today. He has never been considered a powerful personality but now he is the symbol of hope for the country. People are seeing a ray of hope amid disappointment and cynicism. Everyone is enthused. Everybody wants to be a part of his movement — elderly, children and women. An air of change is blowing across the nation. With his movement, Hazare has sent the message to each and everyone that this is time to do something special, something new and this is the time fulfill your duty towards the nation.

However, looking at how things have been dealt with in the past, Hazare will be persuaded to break his fast unto death. Sources say that the PMO and Cabinet Secretariat are likely to create some confusion. The Government in all probability will agree on the demand of joint committee to prepare the bill. There will be an assurance to put the Lokpal Bill before the Parliament in next session. And the Bill is likely to get caught up in the democratic process.

It will be emphasised that the governance would not be possible with the provisions of the Lokpal Bill. In the end the movement will go in vain.


Breaking Hazare

Those who want Anna Hazare to fail have prepared a strategy. First, break the unity of the social activist. Already Santosh Hegde and Aruna Roy have taken a different viewpoint. Second, leaders of the Congress are persuading the leaders of the other parties that they should tread with caution. Efforts are being made to ensure that the NDA and the Third Front do not support Hazare. Some even say that a campaign, similar to the one organised against Baba Ramdev, may be organised against Hazare. Leaflets claiming a connection between the RSS and Hazare have been published. Senior Government officers have started planting the arguments against him — editorials like The Hazare Hazard have been published. A message is being sent to Judiciary that provisions are there in Lokpal Bill which will not even spare the Chief Justice. Industrialists have been given an impression that there would be interference in governance if the Bill comes into force. It is also said that neither the Prime Minister nor any other Minister will be able to work once the Bill is passed. Doubts about its efficiency are being raised. And when it comes to Parliament, it will be sent to the Standing Committee. A lot of provisions will be removed or it may be rejected. The lengthy process involved before it can be passed will kill the enthusiasm of people.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/330503/Mama ... urdle.html

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby milindc » 09 Apr 2011 23:41

VikasRaina wrote:Problem with movements is that you never know when it slips out of your control and takes life of its own. Even if INC or someone else has sponsored or taken over this movement, the risk of letting wolves taste the blood of victory can come back to haunt.

My surprise is with the speed with which Anna Hazare has been built up and GoI has surrendered. Only Pakis ski downhill this fast.
Something surely seems out of place.A man like MMS who cared two hoots while whole of the country was being crushed with scams and inflation suddenly gives up within a week of this movement.
Moreover when the spearhead of this movement is hardly a known face outside his village. It was as if Govt was waiting for something like this to happen. This doesn't add up.
"If it is too good to be true, it probably is"..Those in UPA if are really concerned about corruption should have kicked out Pawar and Raja and co. way back. until a big set of people ends up in jail for life, I wont buy these movements. This is pure chai-biskoots whitewash for the Neta/Babu/Judge class.

So Govt provides crumbs to masses and all is forgiven, the same govt which fought tooth and nail to resist JPC on 2-G scam, same govt which has been denying any loot, same govt which was passing certificate of good conduct to Kalmadi, Raja,Sheila,Gill,karuna, Chavan etc. and now we are to believe that suddenly Govt had change of heart and they are going to let themselves be prosecuted by Lokpal.


Congress rightly calculated that they can't afford to wait over the weekend. The movement had gathered steam, and everyone was clued in due to Regional and National electronic media.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Muppalla » 10 Apr 2011 03:45

Sushupti ji, Both Baba Ramdev and Hazare movements are infiltrated by INC to get credibility to their anti-corruption drives. All the events are in that pursit onlee. Period.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby RamaY » 10 Apr 2011 07:16

Chandragupta wrote:
SaiK wrote:Zero tolerance to corruption must change at the grass roots level.


That is the only way to weed out corruption and it needs an effort from every single one of 1.2 billion citizens of this country. Nobody is interested in that, they just want all the work to be done by a Saviour, forget all about corruption and get back to their daily lives. Not happening.


While I am for a corruption-free india, I disagree that it has to start from bottom. It is impossible. The cleaning has to start from top and will spread fast if done that way.


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