The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Jun 2011 21:21

brihaspati wrote:Yeah, yeah - hear ye, all hear ye - the closet Congressi pseudo-secular pseudo nationalists have all now come out in strength to justify "strong arm of government" against "flooding by lacs of chaps"! How wonderful is the supreme ideological chaamchagiri that smoothly pretends to uphold "going to the people for mandate" whereas those very same people become "lacs of chaps" which literally is a dismissive and derogatory slang in Queens English meaning "commoner/man of the street/street vendor".

In one single expression it gives out the real attitude of the Congress to the "common man on the street" of India.

The answer that you'll get to that argument is that those "lacs of chaps" are still a marginal segment, and that the real sentiments of the people are revealed by EVM results.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 21:30

CRS, Rajiv Malhotra was remarking how Buddhism is fashionable than Hindusim and Fengshui than Vastu with the new elite.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 07 Jun 2011 21:40

CRamS wrote: As SDREs, BJP or Congress, lets stop out of the box and look at the big picture, and when you do, you will hang your head in shame.

CRS ,

This is one comment that I totally agree with.Many people blame congress and think that BJP is the solution.The problem is that Parliamentarians as a whole have abdicated their responsibility and my purely personnel opinion is that the BJP is more like a staged managed opposition in cahoots with the INC than anything else.If they would have played their part as a responsible opposition, this vacuum would not have been created in the first place and people like RD etc. need not have come out.The way they behave it seems that they are part and parcel of this problem and not the solution.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 07 Jun 2011 21:44

Both govt and Ramdev have dented their credibility.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110607.htm

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 07 Jun 2011 21:46

I dont understand why there is so much takleef to people when a baba is raising the issue of corruption and getting back the black money. The crux of the matter is that the issues raised by him resonate with the common public and by looking at the turnout of the supporters I would assume that they have the support of common man. The way the Govt handled this is against the principals of democracy and cannot be allowed.

While the supporters of Congress wanna believe that the government's actions are benevolent and in public interest, they are quick to point that Baba has political interests and hidden agenda. I would like to ask these supporters that what proof do they have that there is a hidden agenda or malevolence on BR's end. Aren't they providing strawman arguments to malign anybody who dares to take on the Govt and Congress.

Plus the psedo seculars lecturing us how Baba's agitation is anti democratic, please first lecture your beloved ruling dispensation (read congress) how much internal democracy does that party has and then come out and lecture. If a peaceful protest is not a democratic tool then what else is.

somnath wrote: But then, holding a city hostage through a 24/7 televised tamasha is not acceptable

People who feel hostage or bothered can choose not to look at news channels or not open the TV at all. Its atleast better than lots of reality serials spitting BS on TV day in and day out. How does this has become a problem for common public???

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 07 Jun 2011 22:08

After SRK's jibe this is Salman Khan's time to take pot shot at baba
"I know my Baba (father), there is Bollywood's Baba Sanju Baba and then our own Sai Baba," Sallu said
Well said, SRK & SK living a plus life, doing nothing for society and feeling very uncomfortable when some one raises issue of corruption (ofcourse what will happen to Bhai's paisa in Bollywood).

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 07 Jun 2011 22:36

Rudradev and Brihaspati.....thanks for quality inputs. I was bit blunt with my two liners yesterday. I stand corrected. I would like add that my main concern is the personality cult. BR specializes in yoga and people follow him but have you seen his entourage? Other day he promised to throw all medics out of business as everybody will be cured if we take his bhasams and churnas? WTF. My father delayed his heart operation for two years eating those unproved ashes. I had to literally drag him to cardio and he was operated. Now he feels much better. People are followilg him because his agenda is pôpular..........what if next time it is something else? I just can't stand when we make God out of people and we follow them blindfolded. Last thing I want India being goverened by Babajis.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
*Stupid I may be......but I dare to speak from conviction and not follow the tide
*to expose Lahori logic ......I use Lahori logic.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 07 Jun 2011 22:40

It now appears that our nationalistic & secular Baba is so 'nationalistic & secular' that he insists that his top assistants carry three (not one) passports each.
More the Indian passports one carries, the more patriotic ????? probably ...........

......... and as for corruption, you not heard the last about forcible encroachment of land, tax evasion etc etc ........ all the Govt Agencies are working full time .... 'Baba will continue to be in the news ... but for the wrong reasons

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 07 Jun 2011 22:40

I just can't stand when we make God out of people and we follow them blindfolded

I agree, no i am NOT a pseudo secularist or a CON-GRESS supporter. Yes he has raised some REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES but lets not make god out of him just yet.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 22:47

There comes out Freudian slips galore - what BR says is "saintly mumbo jumbo", that is the pseudo-secular pseudo-nationalist speak. The only thing to be denigrated, hated, tarred, mashed, humiliated, is that which is identifiable as coming from a "Hindu" source. These same voices remain silken smooth in utter silence when "fatwas" start outpouring from the Ulema - or the Indian Ulema declare that they are into politics. Those saints from the secretly admired faiths do not speak mumbo jumbo - but perfectly democratic, perfectly logical, and sensible and "legitimate" "speak". I guess the "ulema" are not representing religions for these pseudo-nationalists - and their words pour honey into eager ears.

Only religious figures from the "Hindu" have to be bashed if they express lines that are seen to have an impact on political power. I wish Baba had listened to voices like mine and kept this work for another group of activists. He does not know what Congress is - only a glimpse of the psychological darkness of which is visible here in the Freudian slips. The worst possible murderous impulses lurk in those corridors of power, and the factional infighting is increasing in its intensity.

There is time yet for him to slightly withdraw. He should not get involved at this stage in this particular "battle". There are those who formally are among the p-sec p-nationalists but who realize that the only way to solve this problem is to enhance the self-destruct mode, and therefore who will formally encourage increasing the harshness of the repression. It is not possible to say this directly to him. Hope he listens and thinks longer term. At the same time p-sec p-nationalists should also think that many of their most stringent critics on anonymous fora could be the most devotedly subversive in their formal inner associations with their p-sec p-nationalist gurus.

Rats are well-reputed to be the first to abandon a sinking ship. This particular ship will be around a while, but surely the rats can take a hint!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 22:53

Vashishtha wrote:I agree, no i am NOT a pseudo secularist or a CON-GRESS supporter. Yes he has raised some REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES but lets not make god out of him just yet.

Nobody has made a god out of him except his die hard followers. And they are no worse than perverts like Mani shankar aiyar will clean Sonia Gandhis ass with their tounges after she takes a dump.

But thats a moot point. Even if MMS wanted to diss BR after trying to milk him for whats its worth, there were more civilized and self respecting ways of doing that.

Mark my word guys, one of these days, western media will have some piece of this tamsaha, and by God you will have the elites mocking BR to their heart's content. And the favorite one that will appeal most to westerners is BR's views on homosexuality, our elites will use that to paint his as a fascist like Hitler and get their 30 second air time on western media.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 07 Jun 2011 22:54

somnath: Have you ever been to Delhi and seen RamLila Maidan? nothing was held hostage.

The UPA was clearly scared at the moral support BR got from the masses. Period.

The right to protest and assemble peacefully is enshrined in the Indian constitution. To deny that is criminal.

There are people in the hospital paralyzed for life because the UPA sent their hounds.

Frankly I am sick of the so-called civil society and intellectuals. I also noticed that a people with Bengali surnames are grossly over-represented in it. Perhaps it is a reflection of the intellectual in-breeding in this group of people; any one not towing the line does not get a seat at the table.

People like RB, a rustic yadav from the Jatland of Haryana completely shake up the civil-society and its rotten roots. I frankly do not care of his other activities. My focus is on his right to protest, the popular support his cause has, and the government suppression of those rights.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 22:59

brihaspati,

I agree. I think he should withdraw, and continue his Yoga and breathing techniques teaching. At the very least, that is benign, and brings some good to the aam junta. Taking on the hateful Congress with the full backing of the elite is a lost cause. They have brutal state power and media power at their command. If he prolongs this, he is at risk of loosing it all, not worth it.

He has drawn attention to the problem and that itself is a great service, but he is not the right man for the solution IMO.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 23:01

VikramS wrote: The UPA was clearly scared at the moral support BR got from the masses. Period.

I don't think UPA were sacred at him per se, they tried courting him. It was when BJP joined that UPA decided not let them garner the glory and decided to undermine and squash him. And boy have they done it.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 23:05

IndraD wrote:After SRK's jibe this is Salman Khan's time to take pot shot at baba
"I know my Baba (father), there is Bollywood's Baba Sanju Baba and then our own Sai Baba," Sallu said
Well said, SRK & SK living a plus life, doing nothing for society and feeling very uncomfortable when some one raises issue of corruption (ofcourse what will happen to Bhai's paisa in Bollywood).

I know what I am saying will be a no no here, but SRK and SK are nothing but TSP RAPE in Indian mufti, period. These idiots have as much in common with Indian nationhood as I do with the tea party Nazis in US.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 23:06

Just another question - are fatwas by the Ulema extra-constitutional or not? Fatwas are the supreme Islamic jurisprudential interpretations and only has any basis if declared in an Islamic state since they are implementable by the Islamic state as binding on all belonging to the state. Thus declaration of any fatwa by an unelected "Ulema" that affects the lifestyle and rights or practices of an Indian citizen is a direct challenge on the Constitution and its democratic "practice". Why no such loud critic seen from the BR bashers?

What exactly was the peaceful democratic and electorally vetted process that led up to nullification of the Supreme Court order in the Shah Bano case by a suddenly introduced bill in the Parliament? Was the agitation peaceful? Did the people elect the parliamentarians on this particular issue included in the agenda?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 23:12

CRamS wrote: I know what I am saying will be a no no here, but SRK and SK are nothing but TSP RAPE in Indian mufti, period. These idiots have as much in common with Indian nationhood as I do with the tea party Nazis in US.

CRamS, they serve as excellent social-re-engineering brand ambassadors. The social psychological value of men whose Islamic origins/name are constantly highlighted and who mostly act opposite "Hindu" leading ladies - is an excellent suggestive procedure. It trains the audience to see the "Muslim" as the dominant, leading type, to whom the feminized "other" must fall in love with and submit to.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jun 2011 23:14

^^^
The ideal thing for Baba Ramdev to do now would be to make some "positive" statements about Naxalites. "I now understand why Naxalism was born. I hate that they attack innocent civilians, but I understand the frustration and disappointments which gave birth to Naxalism."

that one statement can give him good cover to make a strategic retreat with heal held high, at the same time diffuse the poison spewing forth from INC chamchas. it will also be a very unique statement that will get people thinking.

Maoists have already said that they support the emotion behind BRD's efforts. time for Baba to take advantage of that, regardless of the truth of said feelings.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 07 Jun 2011 23:21

Once again let me ask if the problem is with Swami Ramdev or with the message he is conveying ? Isn't this the same crowd that was screaming on top of its voice raising opposition to Tiranga Yatra in Jan this year. Same voices are opposing Ramdev now. How predictable and disgusting.

Is corruption and black money not such a big deal anymore or do we really trust political class in India to take care of it ?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jun 2011 23:25

the message is fine. the messenger is tricky. i personally believe that it does not matter who the messenger is. after initial tamasha, if they don't cooperate with INC and vested interests, INC will crush them.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 07 Jun 2011 23:25

rsingh wrote:Rudradev and Brihaspati.....thanks for quality inputs. I was bit blunt with my two liners yesterday. I stand corrected. I would like add that my main concern is the personality cult. BR specializes in yoga and people follow him but have you seen his entourage? Other day he promised to throw all medics out of business as everybody will be cured if we take his bhasams and churnas? WTF. My father delayed his heart operation for two years eating those unproved ashes. I had to literally drag him to cardio and he was operated. Now he feels much better. People are followilg him because his agenda is pôpular..........what if next time it is something else? I just can't stand when we make God out of people and we follow them blindfolded. Last thing I want India being goverened by Babajis.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
*Stupid I may be......but I dare to speak from conviction and not follow the tide
*to expose Lahori logic ......I use Lahori logic.

Come on Rsinghji, forget about Bhasams and Churnas. I am sorry for what you've been through. A mature public should make use of these personalities to keep GoI in check. Be it BR or some Maulana Mullah or some John Paul Vattanayakan. The focus is to get back the black money and pave ways to build pressure on any Government to prevent further loot. State or Central. See, everybody are talking about Kani and Maran. But no media group is closely following the amount of loss they have caused to exchequer. Madhu Koda is in, Telgi is in, Harshad Mehta is in, but where is the recovery? Has the loss been recovered completely and accounted. If Media too forgets such important things, we'll have to lean on personalities like these irrespective of their religion so that they get back to media and keep Governments on its toes. If Governments have their own problem in drafting, passing and executing any anti-corruption bill, as a tax payer we public have our own problems starting from water connection to municipality tax to registering an FIR. What do we do now? We will find people under whose skin we crawl. If my state was ruled by BJP and if they've made a common man's life hell with corruption and some Mullah or John starts a dharna against their corruption, I'd say yes to them and support them in my capacity. Our agenda should be to use anyone to make the namesake public servant a real servant of public.

2cents.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 23:28

devesh wrote:^^^
The ideal thing for Baba Ramdev to do now would be to make some "positive" statements about Naxalites. "I now understand why Naxalism was born. I hate that they attack innocent civilians, but I understand the frustration and disappointments which gave birth to Naxalism."

that one statement can give him good cover to make a strategic retreat with heal held high, at the same time diffuse the poison spewing forth from INC chamchas. it will also be a very unique statement that will get people thinking.

Maoists have already said that they support the emotion behind BRD's efforts. time for Baba to take advantage of that, regardless of the truth of said feelings.

I have already suggested that repression on and retreat of the Baba will swell to a certain extent the Maoists. However, tactically, his mistake was not to pull in the Ulema and the Fathers. He seemed flexible enough to appear on the JUH platform earlier. If he only made it an "all-community" affair, it would have made it so much more difficult for the gov. Dont know if he had tried though and failed. Even if the fathers and the ulema refused - a public invitation refused by them on such an issue would have also been nice.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 23:30

devesh wrote:^^^
The ideal thing for Baba Ramdev to do now would be to make some "positive" statements about Naxalites. "I now understand why Naxalism was born. I hate that they attack innocent civilians, but I understand the frustration and disappointments which gave birth to Naxalism."

that one statement can give him good cover to make a strategic retreat with heal held high, at the same time diffuse the poison spewing forth from INC chamchas. it will also be a very unique statement that will get people thinking.

Maoists have already said that they support the emotion behind BRD's efforts. time for Baba to take advantage of that, regardless of the truth of said feelings.

That would be dangerous. INC frauds will bull doze and commit genocide on BR & followers claiming they are taking on naxalites, while leaving the real red alone. It would be God sent opportunity. Best bet for BR is to withdraw. He doesn't stand a chance with INC and he has made his point.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 07 Jun 2011 23:30

brihaspati wrote: However, tactically, his mistake was not to pull in the Ulema and the Fathers. He seemed flexible enough to appear on the JUH platform earlier. If he only made it an "all-community" affair, it would have made it so much more difficult for the gov.

Ulema members & a Father was present on the stage, they also gave speeches.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 07 Jun 2011 23:32

^^ I think it was reported that Imam Bukhari and some father xyz were present. At least I did see some Maulana type folks on the stage.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 07 Jun 2011 23:36

CRamS ji, Someone needs to stand up and be counted against this loot of the country. Why give up for the fear of a govt which understands only the language of violence and money. See how this Congress Govt is willing to wine and dine all anti-nationals.
Maybe this is the opportunity as much as cynical I am about all this show, but then Like osmeone said, in the end everything takes life of its own and no one knows the blowback.

Who knows that this might be the butterfly event flapping the wings for the Brazilian rain forests of the future.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 23:43

shravan wrote:
brihaspati wrote: However, tactically, his mistake was not to pull in the Ulema and the Fathers. He seemed flexible enough to appear on the JUH platform earlier. If he only made it an "all-community" affair, it would have made it so much more difficult for the gov.
Ulema members & a Father was present on the stage, they also gave speeches.

No, obtained a commitment for their representatives stay on in the sit-in - who would have remained there at night with him. Don't know about that.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Jun 2011 23:45

VikasRaina wrote:^^ I think it was reported that Imam Bukhari and some father xyz were present. At least I did see some Maulana type folks on the stage.

Lots of Maulna types with typical topi and beard in the Ashram and elsewhere, in nearly every press conference carefully positioned next to the speaker.

B-ji tends to be a little pessimistic sometimes.

--------

Peace peace....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 23:49

Vikas the Arab spring happened this year because the Arab city folks have a conscience. The Indian elite folk are in bed with the INC regime and party apparatus. They benefit directly or indirectly. So difficult to see how this will unfold. In 1975-77 the elite felt IG betrayed the idealsof the freedom struggle and the freedom they fought for. Now the elite is part of the loot system. How will they recognise the bad that UPA is doing? All the INC have to say is "after us the saffron brigade" and the elite will run away from protests and more importantly their own consciense.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 23:49

VikasRaina wrote: See how this Congress Govt is willing to wine and dine all anti-nationals.

Because they have the support of the mighty west and are allied with those enemies of India who have nukes. BR doens't have either and can be crushed with impunity and there will be no repurcussions. I mean just think about it, see how much respect and awe a terrorist like Musharaff commands in India. Have you seen even a fraction of the harsh language used against him that is used against BR, Sri Sri etc? And you know why.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 07 Jun 2011 23:50

Sonam calls Baba Ramdev 'a sexist homophobe'

Baba Ramdev may have gained a few thousand more followers with his crusade against corruption but he's got some critics too. Sonam Kapoor, who has become the face of India International Jewellery Week, slammed Baba Ramdev on twitter recently.

She tweeted: 'I prefer Baa Baa Black Sheep over Baba Ramdev.'

And when a fan tweeted back to Sonam saying it's so rude, Sonam retorted: 'As rude as you should be to a sexist homophob!'

And Sonam isn't the only one. Jewellery designer and Hrithik Roshan's sister-in-law Farah Khan Ali is bored of Baba's antiques, it seems. 'Bored of Baba. A true believer does not run. He stands up 2 face d heat.Although I do believe d police should not have done what they did,' she tweeted.

http://www.rediff.com/movies/slide-show ... 110607.htm

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 07 Jun 2011 23:53

I know what I am saying will be a no no here, but SRK and SK are nothing but TSP RAPE in Indian mufti, period. These idiots have as much in common with Indian nationhood as I do with the tea party Nazis in US.

CRamS, we don't want to lose you.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2011 23:54

Sanku wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:^^ I think it was reported that Imam Bukhari and some father xyz were present. At least I did see some Maulana type folks on the stage.
Lots of Maulna types with typical topi and beard in the Ashram and elsewhere, in nearly every press conference carefully positioned next to the speaker.

B-ji tends to be a little pessimistic sometimes.

--------

Peace peace....

Were any there at the midnight vigil? And hurt? They would have served as guarantees of unbroken heads. I am not pessimistic - just base myself on the lowest expectation. From there everything you get is a bonus. I believe they were not present with him at night.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 07 Jun 2011 23:56

Sanku ji, I am very pessimistic too as far as political results are concerned.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 00:01

brihaspati wrote: Were any there at the midnight vigil? And hurt?

Let me find out.

However, the larger point that I am trying to make is that its not that BR et al are not trying the evil warding spells you suggest. They are not as naive as you may think.

For a lot of people, Congress seems to have created a do or die scenario.

I have told you before, this time there will be no retreat. This is our full and final battle.

That is because we are cut off, retreat is not an option.

(and this is not about AH and BR and corruption of course but in larger context)

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 00:02

Muppalla wrote:Sanku ji, I am very pessimistic too as far as political results are concerned.

Yes, it seems we are heading for a bloodbath before meaningful changes can happen. The entrenched intrests are going for the kill.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2011 00:03

One thing I dont understand. Time and again the INC has used subterfuge and tactics to defeat protestors. Take a recent example the J&K yatra where the lathi charge (bludgeoned is the right word) the flag raisers. Yet the people never take precautions for duplicity by the ruling party. There are no reports of people on vigil nor video cameras to document the atrocity. They should have used twitter and got the US and the DCH guys and gals on their side!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 00:09

ramana wrote:. There are no reports of people on vigil nor video cameras to document the atrocity. !

The police went for cameras first, broke them, seized the tapes et al and lathi charged the media. The full formal media, the entire legion was there, yet they were crushed.

The volunteers with camera were less lucky.

Some very interesting footage on Hindi news channels never the less.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 08 Jun 2011 00:12

brihaspati wrote:Were any there at the midnight vigil? And hurt? They would have served as guarantees of unbroken heads. I am not pessimistic - just base myself on the lowest expectation. From there everything you get is a bonus. I believe they were not present with him at night.

No.. maulanas weren't there in midnight.. the maulana who was standing besides baba said the next day in haridwar that when he heard about the ruckus, he immediately reached the ramlila gound at 2 in night. but he was not allowed to reach near ramdev. he saw the police charge with his own eyes and was condemning it next day.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 08 Jun 2011 00:12

brihaspati wrote:CRamS, they serve as excellent social-re-engineering brand ambassadors. The social psychological value of men whose Islamic origins/name are constantly highlighted and who mostly act opposite "Hindu" leading ladies - is an excellent suggestive procedure. It trains the audience to see the "Muslim" as the dominant, leading type, to whom the feminized "other" must fall in love with and submit to.

My last point on this lest I get into trouble, and righfully so because this is not the thread to discuss this. But what you point out is precisely the reason why Pakis are so fanatic about Bollywood. In NJ where I used to live, SK's movies like his latest one are such a hit with pakis that theaters are overcrowded with that filth. No wonder in US mind, its India and Paaakistaaan equal equal onlee and both must watch Bollywood like good boys and help US as allies to fight Al Queda. Enough said.