The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Jun 2011 06:19

hmm...why are not people noticing and taking up the theme of "gays" - even after continued desperate attempts to set "BR issue" == "gay issue"! Come on guys, here is an obsession crying out piteously for help in the form of attention!

Any of you planning a revolution? Don't ! Let the Congress burn midnight oil in a Gandhian ashram, how to send in the state paid goons to crack children or women's heads or backs! [The great comrade Lenin burnt midnight oil planning the attack on the Winter Palace - well not really, he only drafted the decrees, the real planning was by one hated Bronstein]. Let their chaamchas plan on keep hammering on the "gay" aspect of "BR"! Don't assume that it is some order of Freudian slip - about "gayness"!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 06:24

^^^
I personally feel that we should all pay close attention to Somnath's posts. the views expressed, the arguments peddled, the contempt for certain sections, the supporting arguments for INC, etc etc are all very indicative of classic P-sec mentality.

Somnath,
why did INC ban that book which said Gandhi was bisexual??? isn't INC the enlightened P-sec that we should all follow???

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 09 Jun 2011 06:24

ravi_ku wrote:if RD dies, he brings matryrdom into the equation and becomes a rallying war cry forever ala gandhi, a potent symbol of anti-corruption and sacrifice and bravery in face of persecution. Notice in 90% of byelections due to death of incumbent, his kin win with a much larger majority, irrespective of the person he was.

Suffice to say, Indian public will not tolerate his criticism and so it changes many many things, not all easily controllable for Gandhis, but not all good for India either.

Why do you think elections won't be rigged?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 09 Jun 2011 06:26

somnath wrote:Is it just coincidence that the first thing that BR did after being "deported" to Hardwar was to head for NOIDA? He is only too aware that NOIDA houses the offices of many news channels...

NOIDA is part of Uttar Pradesh, not Delhi. His planned protest there would bring him near Delhi but would save his followers from the brutal assault of the Delhi police (I don't blame them because they are under direct orders of the GOI). Didn't you know that about NOIDA, having lived in Delhi? Some added information: Gurgaon is part of Haryana state, as is the Faridabad township.

Meanwhile, Haridwar is part of Uttarakhand state, which is under BJP rule.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 06:30

Airavat wrote:Didn't you know that about NOIDA, having lived in Delhi?

Sure, I have parts of my (extended) family living there...The point simply was that the first place the good Baba could thnk of to go to was NOIDA, which incidentally is home to a lot of the TV channel offices in Del...He knew well that a "fast" in Hardwar isnt going to generate a fraction of the media presence that something in NOIDA would...

devesh wrote:why did INC ban that book which said Gandhi was bisexual??? isn't INC the enlightened P-sec that we should all follow???

Not just the current UPA, govts over the years have had an abominable record of capitulating to every such demand to "ban" - the book on Ganshi wasnt the first, it wont be the last..

BTW, I dont think that the INC is an exemplar of anything at all...BR however is nothing but comic relief...

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Jun 2011 06:31

Uttarakhand unlike other states still has a sizeable number of what mofos call 'right wing hindu fundamentalists'.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 09 Jun 2011 06:38

somnath wrote:The point simply was that the first place the good Baba could thnk of to go to was NOIDA, which incidentally is home to a lot of the TV channel offices in Del...

Anna Hazare is fasting in Delhi. Will he get more media exposure if he moves to NOIDA?

Baba Ramdev gives anxious moments to Delhi police

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Jun 2011 06:40

Any entity that is not an exemplar of anything - is a vacuous being. If an individual, he or she has nothing called a character, no integrity, no consistency, nothing to be relied on, nothing to which one can relate to. If a political party, no ideology, no commitment, no integrity, no honesty, nothing to be relied on and to be believed in.

Good that INC has been admitted to be so! BRF at least provides comic relief to pseudo secular pseudo nationalists! But a vacuous political entity only elicits pity and contempt.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 09 Jun 2011 06:48

Any entity that is not an exemplar of anything - is a vacuous being. If an individual, he or she has nothing called a character, no integrity, no consistency, nothing to be relied on, nothing to which one can relate to. If a political party, no ideology, no commitment, no integrity, no honesty, nothing to be relied on and to be believed in.

I am not an exemplar of anything, be it education, wealth, intelligence, fortitude, bravery, wit , empathy or felicity over the English language. I believe that most who post on this forum are also like me. So then by your lahori logic I and everybody else who posts on this forum are vacuous beings who do not have character, integrity, consistency and cannot be relied upon.

Good that INC has been admitted to be so! BRF at least provides comic relief to pseudo secular pseudo nationalists! But a vacuous political entity only elicits pity and contempt.

Good that "Indic" professors do let slip their thought processes once in a while.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 07:14

Somnath:
issue was specifically about "gays" which you've been hammering....why haven't you taken up INC kujli with a book that says Gandhi was bisexual...isn't that an inherent admission of looking down on "gays." why only BRD is the homophobe, not INC???? why only hammer at BRD, not INC????

sugriva:
I will let B'ji explain his words. but his point remains that a slippery snake like INC, which goes to any lengths and depths to hold on to power is a character-less entity. we know by now that it is also an entity without honesty. as for consistency, INC doesn't even know how to spell that word. hypocrisy is the method of their madness.

and also, please don't put yourself on the same level as INC. i know my tone is patronizing here, but seriously, any man/women who makes a living, and gives happiness to his family without resorting to brutal/cruel/corrupt means, is automatically better than INC. the common Indian who's trying to make the best of his life is far better, and inherently is an exemplar of the struggle for life, something that INC can never claim. you, me, and everybody on BRF, sir, we have our jobs/kids/education/family/responsibilities, etc etc.....and by virtue of indulging in these basic Artha-Kama activities itself, we are exemplars. INC is an exemplar of loot, corruption, and intellectual dishonesty....

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Jun 2011 07:24

somnath wrote:BR is a comic relief to the dark shenanigans of Maran/Raja et al

No I don't think BR has the ability to take over Rahul Gandhi's role in providing comic relief to India. That requires a special degree of talent which only the current Gandhi clan have.

I don't think anybody looks at BR as the ideal political leader of India. One would certainly want a political leader to be slightly less hirsute and maybe have more by way of academic qualifications. But we have to deal with the fact that India has actually elected folks who would be completely unelectable anywhere in the world, based purely on a family name - if a persona like Sonia with minimal IQ and completely communal mindset can lead India - all your protestations of 'past the sell-by-date' fall flat on its face, doesn't it?

So the question really is who is the lesser evil. And also, can we fight fire with fire? Viewed from that angle - BR starts to make sense.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Jun 2011 07:25

sugriva wrote:[Any entity that is not an exemplar of anything - is a vacuous being. If an individual, he or she has nothing called a character, no integrity, no consistency, nothing to be relied on, nothing to which one can relate to. If a political party, no ideology, no commitment, no integrity, no honesty, nothing to be relied on and to be believed in.]
I am not an exemplar of anything, be it education, wealth, intelligence, fortitude, bravery, wit , empathy or felicity over the English language. I believe that most who post on this forum are also like me. So then by your lahori logic I and everybody else who posts on this forum are vacuous beings who do not have character, integrity, consistency and cannot be relied upon.

If you want to deliberately draw it upon yourself - who am I to prevent you? But have you taken the consent of "everybody else" on the forum as to what they think of themselves before appropriating them all to your merry twist of an interpretation? Apart from quickly making yourself the imaginary victim of an expansion on the meaning of "any entity that is not an exemplar of anything" - can you please think unemotionally, about what and under what conditions "an entity" ceases to be an "exemplar of anything"? An entity is described by a set of characteristics at the minimum that makes that entity identifiable as separate from something else - in your case, your name, your family, your character, the myriad details of what makes you unique and identifiable somehow from some one "else". In that case you become an example of each of those characteristics.

The point was to draw attention to the fact that by claiming something or somebody bereft of anything that can be an "exemplar", means a complete loss of any identifiable characteristic - which in turn implies vacuousness.

Good that INC has been admitted to be so! BRF at least provides comic relief to pseudo secular pseudo nationalists! But a vacuous political entity only elicits pity and contempt.
Good that "Indic" professors do let slip their thought processes once in a while.

Are you saying I am not even allowed to appreciate the acknowledgment by someone else about the INC being a vacuous entity? What is the slip about this? I have consistently written on the forum and openly expressed my assessment - with reason and logic - that I feel the Congress thrives on a vacuum ideology, that is, no particular commitment to any fixed set of values so that society or its critics cannot hold its actions wrong by any standards - and whatever the dynasty utters becomes the prevalent norm and value.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 07:33

devesh wrote:ssue was specifically about "gays" which you've been hammering....why haven't you taken up INC kujli with a book that says Gandhi was bisexual...isn't that an inherent admission of looking down on "gays." why only BRD is the homophobe, not INC???? why only hammer at BRD, not INC????

I have pointed out many of the rank stupidity of BR's positions, or whatever little of them known, includin his "flagship" issue of black money..Funny only the "gay" thing is noticed..

BTW, INC hasnt displayed any homophobia by banning the book, only continued the perverse tradition of such bans set by multiple governments, including INC itself..In the same way as they didnt become "hindu nationalist/fundamentalist" by banning James Laine's book...

But man, no sense of humour only!! the good Baba sure has a distinct sense of it..I mean, doing anti-corruption crusades in the company of Kamal Nath, I mean Kamal "mr 15%" Nath, and anti corruption?! Similarly, the differently oriented sure would have had a hearty laugh at the Baba clad in that whote salwar kameez!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 07:40

^^^
Somnath,
you are going after Kamal Nath now??? of all people??? I think I'm starting to see what Brihaspati ji meant when he said Kantake naiba Kantakam....

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 07:50

Arjun wrote: I don't think anybody looks at BR as the ideal political leader of India. One would certainly want a political leader to be slightly less hirsute and maybe have more by way of academic qualifications. But we have to deal with the fact that India has actually elected folks who would be completely unelectable anywhere in the world, based purely on a family name - if a persona like Sonia with minimal IQ and completely communal mindset can lead India - all your protestations of 'past the sell-by-date' fall flat on its face, doesn't it?

I dont think a political leader needs to be academically qualified, though it would be a plus...Kamraj had none...the issue is about having the right instincts...

The issue of family is disconcerting to many, and it remains the most serious anomaly in India's system, not just INC (there are only 3 "legacy" parties that are not political family property - Left, BJP and AGP)...Though it is not as incongruous as it might seem...The number of politicos in the US that are siblings/sons/daughters/wives of other politicos is quite amazing too...For 20 years, the US presidency was with 2 families, would have been 28 if Hilary had won...It sure is not as bad as what we have in India, but it is a phenomenon..

About Sonia's IQ, well, she has had a mixed record...From her "we have 272" gaffe in 1998 to a determined push on pet agendas like RTI, NREGS in 2004 that evidently paid off...But she is subject to political scrutiny..

If anyone, BR included, thinks he is a better alternative, let him come to the market/battle-place...Why act through subterfuge and wishy washy quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo? Let the real intentions be made clear, which is when the questions that I posed will be mong those asked...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 07:51

devesh wrote:^^^
Somnath,
you are going after Kamal Nath now??? of all people??? I think I'm starting to see what Brihaspati ji meant when he said Kantake naiba Kantakam....

you havent been reading my posts!

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 09 Jun 2011 08:00

somnath wrote: If anyone, BR included, thinks he is a better alternative, let him come to the market/battle-place...Why act through subterfuge and wishy washy quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo? Let the real intentions be made clear, which is when the questions that I posed will be mong those asked...

So he has to stfu and wait till 2014/5 until the next LS sabha elections? And watch things go down the $hitter until then? As citizens, not only do we have the right to elect a govt, we also have a duty to ensure that the govt functions in a manner that is good for us. If it doesn't, given that we don't have a recall mechanism, the public has to let the govt know that they can't carry on daylight robbery. Despite their antecedents, objection to BR just because he flies in private jets and the RSS seems to support him is just beyond belief!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 09 Jun 2011 08:04

Prasad wrote: So he has to stfu and wait till 2014/5 until the next LS sabha elections? And watch things go down the $hitter until then? As citizens, not only do we have the right to elect a govt, we also have a duty to ensure that the govt functions in a manner that is good for us. If it doesn't, given that we don't have a recall mechanism, the public has to let the govt know that they can't carry on daylight robbery. Despite their antecedents, objection to BR just because he flies in private jets and the RSS seems to support him is just beyond belief!

You may well have to watch things go down the $hitter even after 2014 ... what makes you think that you have any right to elect a government?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Jun 2011 08:09

somnath wrote:The issue of family is disconcerting to many, and it remains the most serious anomaly in India's system, not just INC (there are only 3 "legacy" parties that are not political family property - Left, BJP and AGP)...Though it is not as incongruous as it might seem...The number of politicos in the US that are siblings/sons/daughters/wives of other politicos is quite amazing too...For 20 years, the US presidency was with 2 families, would have been 28 if Hilary had won...It sure is not as bad as what we have in India, but it is a phenomenon..

I have had many, many arguments with folks who have attempted to bring up this kind of comparison. I don't find any similarity between the record of the US and India in the least. One is 20 years out of 235 years - ie less than 10% of the independent republic timespan was ruled and we are not even talking of only 1 family. Here in India you have something like 70% of timespan since independance from 1 single family. There is no question of any comparison whatsoever.

Frankly I am amazed that this issue does not cause as much repugnance to you and obviously a lot of Indians as it does to me.

Added to the issue of dynastyism is the rapidly gaining communalism in the INC. Look at the company it keeps - rabid anti-Hindu communalists like Swami Agnivesh, John Dayal and many others. It is strange that you and other INC supporters look at a one sided definition of communalism - but very much in keeping with the INC view that being anti-Hindu is acceptable and distinct from communalism against minorities.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 08:21

Prasad wrote:So he has to stfu and wait till 2014/5 until the next LS sabha elections

Not at all, the citizens of Delhi didnt have to get some joker fight an election to get justice for Priyadarshini Mattoo...The IIX community didnt have to fight an election to prevent the excesses of MMJ/Arjun Singh...No election needed to be fought to expose the 2G scam and send Raja to prison...Arvind Kejriwal didnt need to fight an election to force the govt's hand on the Lokpal Bill...

The engagement of the citizenry with the polity needs to deepen, and there are multiple modes and avenues of that...Politics is one, right at the pinnacle...If BR wants to simply do the former, then his understanding of the issues is exceedingly shallow, his remedies laughable, and his methodology, well, comic...If he wants to do the latter, which I think he is, then its just subterfuge, a comic one, but subterfuge...

Arjun wrote:Frankly I am amazed that this issue does not cause as much repugnance to you and obviously a lot of Indians as it does to me

It does to me, and a lot of others...Unfortunately, the alternatives seem to have picked up this bad habit as well!

To be fair to the Indian republic. the dynasticism is a more recent phenomenon, tarting from IG in the '70s...Nehru was surely not a "dynastic" product...IG herself was nominated by the Congress top brass looking to further their own cause, not a dynastic baby...

It is a problem, and the solution is already emerging - the "hottest" leaders in the country today who span more than one state are Nitish Kumar, Narendra Modi and Sheila Dixit...Not sure about Sheila Dixit, but the next PM can well be one of the other two..

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Jun 2011 08:40

somnath wrote:It is a problem, and the solution is already emerging - the "hottest" leaders in the country today who span more than one state are Nitish Kumar, Narendra Modi and Sheila Dixit...Not sure about Sheila Dixit, but the next PM can well be one of the other two..

Indications are the Gandhi family controlling the INC is all set to increase both its dynastyism and its communalism. Like all forces of evil elsewhere in the world - it is not looking to loosen its grip on the political landscape by any means.

So, I am not sure what you are pointing to when you say a solution is emerging.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 08:52

^^^About communalism, I would say using communitarian rhetoric, it has been an old tool of political parties in India..INC is the original "sinner", but the others have merrily jumped on whichever bandwagon suited them...Again, India is hardly Robinson Crusoe - one can hear such rhetoric even in post modern European societies, in fact increasingly so now...Just that there seems to be far greater social tolerance and acceptance of such narratives in India than in Europe...

But I am optimistic here as well..With increasing prosperity, as MJ Akbar says repeatedly, Indians have realsied that social peace is an essential prerequisite for material progress...Which, btw, is also the reason why all this talk of impending revolution/emergency is such a load of hogwash...Increasingly, the imperatives of delivering to a global marketplace makes the B'lore techie far less receptive to civic disruptions on account of some random Igah land in Hubli...If Calcutta gets back on its feet under Mamata, its young will show similar disdain for bandhs as well as street violence over non-issues like Taslima..

One has seen increasing evidence of that in the electoral marketplace as well...Mulayam's downfall almost started with that stupid plan to have friday holiday in UP...Mayawati had to coopt and ditch that "tilak tarazu rubbish to finally form a stable govt...BJP has to keep Modi away to win in Bihar...The likes of that obnoxious BL Sharma Prem nearly lose their deposits...

Reagrdless of the current drift, we are on the right track....

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 08:54

what the hell....we are talking about Nehru parivar controlling India, and you're discounting Nehru himself from having established a sycophantic sytem.....this is madarsa logic: don't include Nehru in the Nehru parivar....

guys, let's not have one person hijacking the thread. the goal posts and arguments constantly keep moving for P-secs, and if we let them hijack it, they'll never answer any question but keep shifting from one issue/stand to other. I have yet to receive an answer that didn't try to obfuscate/shift the issue from the "gays" that was raised repeatedly, until some started questioning it, and mysteriously it disappears....

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 09:00

somnath wrote:^^^About communalism, I would say using communitarian rhetoric, it has been an old tool of political parties in India..INC is the original "sinner", but the others have merrily jumped on whichever bandwagon suited them...Again, India is hardly Robinson Crusoe - one can hear such rhetoric even in post modern European societies, in fact increasingly so now...Just that there seems to be far greater social tolerance and acceptance of such narratives in India than in Europe...

But I am optimistic here as well..With increasing prosperity, as MJ Akbar says repeatedly, Indians have realsied that social peace is an essential prerequisite for material progress...Which, btw, is also the reason why all this talk of impending revolution/emergency is such a load of hogwash...Increasingly, the imperatives of delivering to a global marketplace makes the B'lore techie far less receptive to civic disruptions on account of some random Igah land in Hubli...If Calcutta gets back on its feet under Mamata, its young will show similar disdain for bandhs as well as street violence over non-issues like Taslima..

One has seen increasing evidence of that in the electoral marketplace as well...Mulayam's downfall almost started with that stupid plan to have friday holiday in UP...Mayawati had to coopt and ditch that "tilak tarazu rubbish to finally form a stable govt...BJP has to keep Modi away to win in Bihar...The likes of that obnoxious BL Sharma Prem nearly lose their deposits...

Reagrdless of the current drift, we are on the right track....

what is the evidence that people of Bihar hate Modi.....why are you confusing your opinions with those of the broad Bihari population??? no obfuscation please. just tell me what evidence you have that lets you believe that Biharis hate Modi???

and please do let us know what "communitarian rhetoric" that bothers you??? I am interested to know.....speaking in vague terms with no substantiation is easy to do....please give me some examples of those "rhetoric" which you don't like...

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 09:05

The engagement of the citizenry with the polity needs to deepen, and there are multiple modes and avenues of that...Politics is one, right at the pinnacle...If BR wants to simply do the former, then his understanding of the issues is exceedingly shallow, his remedies laughable, and his methodology, well, comic

politics is at the pinnacle you say??? so politics, according to you, is a last ditch effort. once again I ask the same question: why are you getting heart burn with Ramdev when you didn't have any with Hazare??? isn't it hypocrisy???? since April, no sound or comment from you about the "joker" Hazare.....but suddenly Ramdev is a "joker"????

there is nothing "deep" about black money....it is simple corruption. all one needs to know is that it is stolen wealth stashed away in foreign banks. not kewl sophistication from enlightened P-secs is needed. that is just a bunch of hogwash to claim "superiority" of knowledge and "higher" levels of understanding....obfuscate and shift...that is the strategy.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jun 2011 09:09

BJP has to keep Modi away to win in Bihar

I call BS on this one... By that logic, is Modi compulsorily required to win in K'taka or in Uttaranchal where he actively campaigned and BJP won?

The only reason Modi didnt come was that JD(U) wanted to keep the "secular" DDM in his good books and not tar him "communal/RSS agent" so that the massive IM population there would atleast vote for him.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 09 Jun 2011 09:15

somnath wrote: Not at all, the citizens of Delhi didnt have to get some joker fight an election to get justice for Priyadarshini Mattoo...The IIX community didnt have to fight an election to prevent the excesses of MMJ/Arjun Singh...No election needed to be fought to expose the 2G scam and send Raja to prison...Arvind Kejriwal didnt need to fight an election to force the govt's hand on the Lokpal Bill...

The engagement of the citizenry with the polity needs to deepen, and there are multiple modes and avenues of that...Politics is one, right at the pinnacle...If BR wants to simply do the former, then his understanding of the issues is exceedingly shallow, his remedies laughable, and his methodology, well, comic...If he wants to do the latter, which I think he is, then its just subterfuge, a comic one, but subterfuge...

I don't get it. First you say whats he doing getting all political. Next you say well you don't need to get political to get anything done but at hte same time claim that him trying to get anything done by not getting political is comical. Make up your own mind first of whats realistic and whats not perhaps? Besides with elections still another 2-3 years away, without being able to fight elections this is the only way to get anything done is perhaps lost on you?

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 09 Jun 2011 09:15

IndraD wrote:A separate Q to gurus what if BR's health deteriorates under fast , what will govt do?

Ever heard of 'Irom Sharmila' ????? 11 years ...
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... ngest-fast
the 'baba' should be good for a couple of decades

But then she (or those supporting her) neither claim ownership on the 'patriotism patent' nor walk about wearing saffron, ..... so it must be ok for her to be treated like this for over a decade and nary a beep from anyone from the rest of India

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 09:18

sum ji,

that too is a shaky argument. it was simply a "media" move to be in good books of INC political elite and not invite the attention of the P-sec brigade. the common Bihari having takleef with Modi is the craziest argument ever. this is madarsa logic, if ever there was one. even Muslims in Bihar aren't likely to be too "crazy" about Modi. there is simply no evidence.

Bihar was about administrative skills and clean up after Laloo destruction. Modi would have actually helped, if anything.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 09:21

devesh wrote:there is nothing "deep" about black money....it is simple corruption. all one needs to know is that it is stolen wealth stashed away in foreign banks.

Unfortunately, its not so simple..How do you define what is "stolen"? Is all money in foreign banks illegal? I posted an analysis by Surjit Bhalla on his estimate of black money generated every year - he puts it at 1 lac crore, nowhere close to that 60 lac crore or whatever number is bandied about by BR..When dived into, actual data comes out pretty contrary to expectations..That LGT Bank, which was supposed to have hundreds of billions of dollars, apparently has 40 crores, according to data furnished to the Supreme Court..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/black ... st/801250/

This isnt to underplay the problem, but we need to have a sense of what it is about, and what we need to do, not flailing in the air asking for capital punishment for all and sundry...that is why the likes of Arvind K et al have more credibility at this than BR...Which is why the latter is at best a joker, while Arvind K and his group are seriouos players in the "civil society" engagement process...

devesh wrote:what is the evidence that people of Bihar hate Modi

When did I say that? The point was that in various parts of the country, communitarian rhetoric is losing potency as a political tool...One example was in Bihar, where despite Modi's undeniable charisma within BJP, he had to be kept out on the insistence of Nitish Kumar for the NDA to win the elections...Its a fact, no POV...

Its acually a good thing - political fights should be on grounds higher than base communitarian narratives..Even Modi himself has had to reinvent his own narrative from "Hum paanch hamare pacchis" to "development man"...Where's the fudging?

prasad wrote:I don't get it. First you say whats he doing getting all political. Next you say well you don't need to get political to get anything done but at hte same time claim that him trying to get anything done by not getting political is comical. Make up your own mind first of whats realistic and whats not perhaps? Besides with elections still another 2-3 years away, without being able to fight elections this is the only way to get anything done is perhaps lost on you

Not sure which part wasnt clear...I was just exemplifyng the fact that one does not need to wait for 5 years to bring around change...

There are various ways in which citizens participate in the polity...Politics is one...Electoral politics is a second...(Gandhi was in politics, not electoral politics...A lot of LEft leaders are in politics, not in electoral politics...The likes of Ram Lal and Sanjay Joshi etc are in politics, not electoral politics)...there are many more, "civic" engagements.
If one is looking for results in the last, then one has to be clear, have clear objectives and understanding, things that BR has in amounts of zero...Politics, electoral or otherwise on the other hand is as much about the form as its about substance, in fact sometimes more for the former..According to me, BR is doing politics - and there is absolutely no problem with that...But in that case, we need to ask him the same questions that we ask of our politicians, both on form and substance...

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 09:26

Nesoj wrote:
IndraD wrote:A separate Q to gurus what if BR's health deteriorates under fast , what will govt do?
Ever heard of 'Irom Sharmila' ????? 11 years ...
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... ngest-fast
the 'baba' should be good for a couple of decades

But then she (or those supporting her) neither claim ownership on the 'patriotism patent' nor walk about wearing saffron, ..... so it must be ok for her to be treated like this for over a decade and nary a beep from anyone from the rest of India

eh....right! so she hasn't eaten anything at all eh??? let's say that's true. why do you expect every human to be super-human??? why don't you try getting pushed around and beaten by police, then forcefully deported, all while in the middle of a fast. why don't you try fasting for 5 days? perhaps then you can sneer at Ramdev for his puny capacity to take hunger.....

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 09 Jun 2011 09:32

Nesoj wrote:
IndraD wrote:A separate Q to gurus what if BR's health deteriorates under fast , what will govt do?
Ever heard of 'Irom Sharmila' ????? 11 years ...
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... ngest-fast
the 'baba' should be good for a couple of decades

But then she (or those supporting her) neither claim ownership on the 'patriotism patent' nor walk about wearing saffron, ..... so it must be ok for her to be treated like this for over a decade and nary a beep from anyone from the rest of India

People fighting for causes that are relevant for most of the population (such the looting of the people by the regime) will get support from most of the population.

What Ramdev is doing is relevant for everybody from Manipur to Dwarka, and Kargil to Kanyakumari.

Irom Sharmila wants to abolish AFSPA? Well, so does Geelani of Osama funeral and Sharia law fame. Let Sharmila put her views out in public, and I am sure she will get sympathy if her points are genuine.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 09:32

When did I say that? The point was that in various parts of the country, communitarian rhetoric is losing potency as a political tool...One example was in Bihar, where despite Modi's undeniable charisma within BJP, he had to be kept out on the insistence of Nitish Kumar for the NDA to win the elections...Its a fact, no POV...

Its acually a good thing - political fights should be on grounds higher than base communitarian narratives..Even Modi himself has had to reinvent his own narrative from "Hum paanch hamare pacchis" to "development man"...Where's the fudging?

you are repeating the same thing again. i've already said it: the so called "communitarian narrative" is a construct of P-secs. Nitish did it to keep away the P-sec brigade. it had absolutely nothing to do with Bihari voters. religion is an integral part. and when P-secs abuse one religion and target it ruthlessly, that religion has the right to question that behavior. it's not "narrative," it's a right to question.

Modi's denial of entry into Bihar was not about common Biharis. and don't repeat the same thing again please. the election result in Bihar wouldn't have been effected negatively by Modi. that's definitely your opinion. and not a fact

Modi "reinvented" himself??? what is this nonsense. Modi has been Modi forever. even before 2002. he campaigned on certain issues and solved those issues. he's always been a development man. what is this supposed "reinvention?" where is the evidence for it?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 09:34

Pranav wrote: People fighting for causes that are relevant for most of the population (such the looting of the people by the regime) will get support from most of the population.

What Ramdev is doing is relevant for everybody from Manipur to Dwarka, and Kargil to Kanyakumari.

Let Irom Sharmila wants to abolish APFSA? Well, so does Geelani of Osama funeral and Sharia law fame. Let Sharmila put her views out in public, and I am sure she will get sympathy if her points are genuine.

Pranav ji,
well said, indeed. ++1.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 09:36

The Irom Sharmila case is pertinent...Unlike what Nesoj seems to imply (I may be wrong), she isnt really "fasting" - they are force feeding her in a hospital for 11 years..

For those who dont know, her demand is very clear - removal of AFSPA in Manipur..One might agree or disagree, but one cannot deny that she is in it with conviction, clear objective and persistance..She is not looking to do politics with it..And yes, she has been subjected to as much violence, if not more as the good Baba was that night (not anymore, but when she first started 11 years back, at Jantar Mantar)...And no, she did not ask for a permission to do a yoga shivir and congregate 1 lac people there. She stated her intention clearly and also laid down her demands transparently...

I dont know enough about the Manipur situation, by all accounts its complicated..But the limited point is if people are looking at "civil society" action, THAT is an example, not the BR spectacle, an airconditioned 5 star fast, preceded by negotations in 5 star hotels, and min-by-min soundbytes...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jun 2011 09:36

and the best we can look forward to is Yuvaraj tiberius from the INC side. thats not a soothing prospect. like anyone who has been insulated from birth in a cocoon of elitism, he can swing between too paper idealistic (JLN had some of this same issue) to too brutal/callous because his experiences are not seasoned by what works in real life.

so not surprised he is behind the 'hardliners' in the INC wanting to crush this 'revolt'

speaking of 5* perhaps its time for yuvaraj and rajmata to live in a regular DDA flat in janakpuri , several notches down from the 7* environs of their lavish bungalows no? perhaps they can downsize their tank regiment sized cavalcade?

why must austerity and sacrifice be expected only of the common man or one who goes against the regime but not the regime themselves? let the AC in north and south blocks be turned off in summer and see how many show up.

somnath is increasingly sounding like the INC party spokesman here. perhaps we need a new political pamphlets thread?

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 09 Jun 2011 09:40

Where is Rahul Baba? No noise from him yet. Is he so ashamed to be Indian that he has decided not to get involved in Indian politics anymore?

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 09 Jun 2011 09:40

somnath wrote: If anyone, BR included, thinks he is a better alternative, let him come to the market/battle-place...

I am curious to know on what basis are you laying this requirement repeatedly that if someone has a better alternative, they should stand up for elections?

Why act through subterfuge and wishy washy quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo?

Because what you call "wishy washy quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo" is the stuff that this guy believes and lives by, and quite successfully at that with a massive following and economic resources. Not only that, despite of his any perceived or real eccentricities, he has been able to successfully force the government hands multiple times entirely through peaceful means.

More power to him, if he (or anyone else) can continue to do this. It's people like him who ultimately protect democracy in India, not your standard congress ministers and functionaries who more or less are extending the grand tradition of looting the common people of this country who have barely enough to eat.

Let the real intentions be made clear, which is when the questions that I posed will be among those asked...

Why are you so worried about his real intentions? Really, I am very interested to know as to where and why this fear of his "real intention" is coming from. Why are his "real intentions" so important to you. Isn't he already doing a great job of forcing the governments hands on corruption?

But I am optimistic here as well..With increasing prosperity, as MJ Akbar says repeatedly, Indians have realsied that social peace is an essential prerequisite for material progress...

Seems like an argument designed to influence people not to take anti-government measures. Basically a step towards lulling people into some sort of semi-congress-dictatorship.

This correlation between "social peace" and "increasing prosperity" is completely moot in the Indian context. Such a correlation has never existed in India since 1947.

The real correlation is between "removal of governmental controls" and "increasing prosperity". It is the basic fundamental duty that each person must do their UTMOST and their BEST to remove any government currently in power for absolutely any reason they think best provided that they can do so peacefully.

And just to remind you, this battle is about people taking what is rightfully theirs (economic resources) back into their hands from a government run by corrupt ministers, functionaries who are busy expoiting economic resources to enrich themselves while common people are literally dying of malnutrition in many cases and farmers committing suicide over Rs 100,000 loans.

It is the right of every citizen of this country to bring the entire functioning of government to a complete halt if they can do so peacefully for any reason they can best think of.

Freedom and hence economic property is protected by people keeping government at its edge and toes, specially a corrupt government such as congress, but not by people who are under some sort of a delusion that "social peace" will lead to economic prosperity - that is almost never the case (except maybe in war torn or troubled regions of the world which has never been the case in India in general since 1947)

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 09 Jun 2011 09:49

devesh wrote:
Nesoj wrote:
Ever heard of 'Irom Sharmila' ????? 11 years ...
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... ngest-fast
the 'baba' should be good for a couple of decades

But then she (or those supporting her) neither claim ownership on the 'patriotism patent' nor walk about wearing saffron, ..... so it must be ok for her to be treated like this for over a decade and nary a beep from anyone from the rest of India

eh....right! so she hasn't eaten anything at all eh??? let's say that's true. why do you expect every human to be super-human??? why don't you try getting pushed around and beaten by police, then forcefully deported, all while in the middle of a fast. why don't you try fasting for 5 days? perhaps then you can sneer at Ramdev for his puny capacity to take hunger.....

oooops....... to fast on the keyboard (didn't even care to read the linked article )
why don't you take a deep breath, read the link, understand why she is alive after fasting for 10 yrs and then respond.

BTW .... isn't RD superhuman ?? Considering the current hype around this charlatan, I supposed that he had some 'special bhasma' or yogic technique to suck in energy from atmosphere around him, negating all effects of fasting (something minor for someone who claims he has the cure for cancer, aids & every other disease on earth)

PS :- I don't wear saffron chaddis nor kakhi knickers, which permits me to call a spade a spade (I also don't wear Kangressi khadi or carry a jhola on my shoulder if that's what your suspecting)

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 09 Jun 2011 09:53

Nesoj wrote: oooops....... to fast on the keyboard (didn't even care to read the linked article )
why don't you take a deep breath, read the link, understand why she is alive after fasting for 10 yrs and then respond.

BTW .... isn't RD superhuman ?? Considering the current hype around this charlatan, I supposed that he had some 'special bhasma' or yogic technique to suck in energy from atmosphere around him, negating all effects of fasting (something minor for someone who claims he has the cure for cancer, aids & every other disease on earth)

PS :- I don't wear saffron chaddis nor kakhi knickers, which permits me to call a spade a spade (I also don't wear Kangressi khadi or carry a jhola on my shoulder if that's what your suspecting)

Nesoj, you would be more credible if you stopped lying. Ramdev did not claim a cure for AIDS.