The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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harbans
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby harbans » 10 Jun 2011 15:04

the contradiction should have been obvious. In one post you ask us to put our faith in whatever drops from someone because of his supposed expertise in "economics" and "law", and reverentially accept line by line of whatever pontifications comes from him - but at the same time you also point out that similar "brilliant" experts in "economics" etc., helped out in the foundations of empires like the Nazi or Communists that ultimately crashed.

No i did'nt ask you to put faith and accept line by line what is written. But Somnath ji is not a marxist economist. Too many posts in the economics and other threads point to that. :mrgreen: I've never seen him espousing against transparency or openness. That's why i recommended reading his posts and looking beyond his personal opinions on INC or BJP etc. I don't know nuclear physics, that's why i do read what Guru Prabhu and Amber G write in the Nuke thread..so i do recommend folks to read what they post there. Being 'brilliant' is just one part, being in the right camp is the more important part.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 10 Jun 2011 15:10

harbans ji,
the debate has long gone out of "midnight tea party at BR's expense" theme. By the way, it concentrated so much on that midnight thing because people began to justify the governments attitudes and actions at "midnight" by specifically making BR a fit candidate for such attacks.

The real underlying attempt has been to try and negate the right of BR and his co-movers to demand things from the government on issue basis without filling out all possible details of all possible foreseeable outcomes and criticisms almost in the form of a bill tabled in the parliament itself.

Further the deceptive twist is that of deliberately representing duty on implementing demands as placed by the people outside the legislature as one part of the process of legislation - smoothly expanded into a monopoly right over the process of demand too -outside the parliament. The right to demand by any and all outside the parliament is being sought to be monopolized under party control.

What this implies is seeking to concentrate all power into the hands of the party - through a formal process of apparent legitimation - by claiming that it all functions as a democracy. Concentration of such powers into the hands of a party by electoral means in a formal representative democracy is not new at all - Hitler himself came to power through elections in a representative legislative democracy. Whenever any party or its pooches start shouting about the sole right of the party to control both the expression of demand outside the legislature as well as implementation of demands through laws inside the legislature - that is the classic first steps of formation of a Nazi regime.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby jimmyray » 10 Jun 2011 15:12

somnath wrote:
jimmyray wrote:he least corrupt countries are the ones where the society believes that corruption is wrong (e.g. Some Nordic counties). Most people in these counties are proud that they have so little corruption. It is inculcated in them from childhood that they should not do anything that would harm their country

IMO thats a bit of a utopian construct..Not disregarding the social influences, essentially, it is much easier to enforce rules and governance in small, homogeneeous countries...Nordic countries are exemplars in Europe, on the other hand Italy has issues with political corruption...In Asia, Singapore is an exemplar on the issue, but China has massive issues...

In large, heterogeneous complicated countries, rules-based regulatory regimes, stable, low-tax regimes and high economic "freedom" typically take incentives to "cheat" out, and prevents misuse of state authority...

Which is precisely what is required in India as well...


I do understand that Nordic model may not be totally suitable for India because of obvious differences in size and complexity. However, in scientific experiments you do start with a small model and then improve on it till you reach your objective. The more the difference in size and complexity between the model and the end objective more difficult is the task. Nevertheless this does not mean that a ‘mice’ model should not be used to find a cure for human disease. I would not outright reject the Nordic ‘utopian’ construct simply because of differences in size and complexity. An Indic modification of this model might give multiple long term benefits. How to use it in Indian context could be discussed at an appropriate forum by those who believe in the feasibility of such a model.
Last edited by jimmyray on 10 Jun 2011 15:23, edited 1 time in total.

brihaspati
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 10 Jun 2011 15:17

harbans wrote:the contradiction should have been obvious. In one post you ask us to put our faith in whatever drops from someone because of his supposed expertise in "economics" and "law", and reverentially accept line by line of whatever pontifications comes from him - but at the same time you also point out that similar "brilliant" experts in "economics" etc., helped out in the foundations of empires like the Nazi or Communists that ultimately crashed.

No i did'nt ask you to put faith and accept line by line what is written. But Somnath ji is not a marxist economist. Too many posts in the economics and other threads point to that. :mrgreen: I've never seen him espousing against transparency or openness. That's why i recommended reading his posts and looking beyond his personal opinions on INC or BJP etc. I don't know nuclear physics, that's why i do read what Guru Prabhu and Amber G write in the Nuke thread..so i do recommend folks to read what they post there. Being 'brilliant' is just one part, being in the right camp is the more important part.


The "faith" part was mentioned by you in the context of "denigration of Hinduism" - since you claim to go line by line "faithfully" about what is being written I will assume that you found no such thing in previous posts? Are you willing to vouch for this?

The other point about economics and law - was not about Marxism or Nazism per se. It was about the fact that apparent knowledge or expertise in these areas does not rule out hidden ideological commitments towards promoting particular insidious political agenda or party objectives. I did mention about non-Marxists too who posed as liberals, progressives yadda yadda and yet justified the blood-sucking of Indians? Surely you yourself can search out who among the enlightened economists tried to deny any role of the triangular Atlantic trade involving slavery, in the foundations of the industrial revolution and prosperity of the British empire? These were "brilliant", liberal, definitely non-Nazi, experts in "economics".

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Atri » 10 Jun 2011 15:24

Baba Ramdev taken to Dehradun for treatment

shocked to see, this news missed in the semantic and comprehenshan debate going on.. liver of BRD and Balkrishna beginning to fail...

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 10 Jun 2011 15:27

I still have had no answer from BR-bashers - about what is extra-constitutional and so loudly to be contested in his moves, now, when the fatwaists shouted (and got what they wanted) based on the their claims of legitimacy and universal global applicability of Islamist fatwas - issued even outside India, but implementable and applicable inside India by people who are Indian citizens. the ftwaists were not dubbed "extra-constitutional"!

So it is after all dependent on "religion" of the person demanding, isn't it?

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby SRoy » 10 Jun 2011 15:31

brihaspati wrote:I still have had no answer from BR-bashers - about what is extra-constitutional and so loudly to be contested in his moves, now, when the fatwaists shouted (and got what they wanted) based on the their claims of legitimacy and universal global applicability of Islamist fatwas - issued even outside India, but implementable and applicable inside India by people who are Indian citizens. the ftwaists were not dubbed "extra-constitutional"! So it is after all dependent on "religion" of the person demanding, isn't it?


Leave aside fatwaists. What about SG constitueted NAC? What constitutional standing does it have that it has began to draft bills to be placed in the parliament? Alas, there will no answers from INC apologists.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Atri » 10 Jun 2011 15:34

BR bashers should ask for medical explanation from their kids, when it starts crying in midnight out of pain. Unless the kid explains what is happening and suggest a medically coherent solution to the pain, they should not call doctor.. One may replace the kid with one's old father, brother, mother or wife who does not have MD in medicine. anything lower (MBBS included) is totally unacceptable.. Neglect the person, let the Mofo die. the ignorant a$$hole does not have right to live and cry out loud in pain, unless he/she specifically describes the nature of problem along with a comprehensible and plausible solution to the pain.

Jay ho...

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby jimmyray » 10 Jun 2011 15:40

Atri wrote:Baba Ramdev taken to Dehradun for treatment

shocked to see, this news missed in the semantic and comprehenshan debate going on.. liver of BRD and Balkrishna beginning to fail...


IMO fasting has served the purpose. It has brought to the limelight the issue of corruption and has also exposed the ‘forces’ that suppressed a peaceful protest. I wish him a speedy recovery.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby jimmyray » 10 Jun 2011 15:43

Atri wrote:BR bashers should ask for medical explanation from their kids, when it starts crying in midnight out of pain. Unless the kid explains what is happening and suggest a medically coherent solution to the pain, they should not call doctor.. One may replace the kid with one's old father, brother, mother or wife who does not have MD in medicine. anything lower (MBBS included) is totally unacceptable.. Neglect the person, let the Mofo die. the ignorant a$$hole does not have right to live and cry out loud in pain, unless he/she specifically describes the nature of problem along with a comprehensible and plausible solution to the pain.

Jay ho...


Nitpick: MD in Pediatrics, (maybe even DM neonatology) :D

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby harbans » 10 Jun 2011 15:44

I am searching for such detailed "bills" in manifestos of political parties which they place to the public before the elections on agenda to be pursued if the party gets elected to power or from within the legislature. I have collections of even "inner" manifestos of certain parties - which are meant for internal discussions and not really printed out for external circulation. None of them have it and some items in my collection go back to the 60's - even before I was born.

I'm all for parties being more specific on their agenda's. I'm sure most people here would also like that to be the case. Every party sloganeers on removing corruption, clean governance, improving the lot of poor and blah blah. Then they come into power we know what happens. Tell me one person in India who says we should not end corruption. Asking a party for more specifics is now a bad thing? I don't know what you're spinning inside your head thinking some kind of deception is going on. Asking for further specifics has now become too much to ask? Then what exactly are we discussing here on removing corruption. I have clearly made 3 points right in my first post here. The 3rd point is this that : This is not about 'corruption' anymore. This is about a raw nerve being hit Psec - BR camp. The discussion will be centered now on exactly the theme of 'deception' spins you are accusing others off out of thin air. And if you think you have better ideas to remove corruption, why don't you for a change list out something, rather than just make some accusatory statements in an otherwise meaningless post. Somnath ji at least has done that.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sanku » 10 Jun 2011 15:47

harbans wrote:Somnath ji at least has done that.


Harbans-ji, can you really not see that Somnath ji is the verbal equivalent of

The 3rd point is this that : This is not about 'corruption' anymore. This is about a raw nerve being hit Psec - BR camp


If you really cant, then you need some soul searching, really deep one.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sanku » 10 Jun 2011 15:49

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/India/C ... -8347.html

I am quoting this in Hindi since the language in Hindi is more hard hitting, the exact same can be found in english in the above link

लेकिन कुछ ही घंटे बाद सरकार ने मुझे गलत साबित कर दिया..मैंने स्वामी रामदेव से कहा था कि आप निश्चिंत होकर सोइये... देर रात मुझे इंडिया टीवी के Newsroom से फोन आया : "सर, रामलीला मैदान में पुलिस ने धावा बोल दिया है"...फिर उस रात टी वी पर जो कुछ देखा ,आंखों पर विश्वास नहीं हुआ कोई ऐसा कैसे कर सकता है ...कैमरों और रिपोर्ट्स की आंखों के सामने पुलिस ने लाठियां चलाईं, आंसू गैस के गोले छोड़े, बूढ़े और बच्चों को पीटा, महिलाओं के कपड़े फाड़ दिए...मैंने स्वामी रामदेव को अपने सहयोगी के कंधे पर बैठकर बार-बार पुलिस से ये कहते सुना- "यहां लोगों को मत मारो, मैं गिरफ्तारी देने को तैयार हूं" ...लेकिन जब सरकार पांच हजा़र की पुलिस फोर्स को कहीं भेजती है तो वो फोर्स ऐसी बातें सुनने के लिए तैयार नहीं होती...पुलिस वालों की Training डंडा चलाने के लिए होती है, आंसू गैस छोड़ने और गोली चलाने के लिए होती है पुलिस ये नही समझती कि जो लोग वहां सो रहे हैं वो दिनभर के भूखे हैं , अगर वहां मौजूद भीड़ उग्र हो जाती है तो पुलिस गोली भी चला देती...वो भगवान का शुक्र है कि स्वामी रामदेव के Followers में ज्यादातर बूढ़े, महिलाएं और बच्चे थे या फिर उनके चुने साधक थे जिनकी Training उग्र होने की नहीं है

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 10 Jun 2011 15:52

Atri wrote:Baba Ramdev taken to Dehradun for treatment

shocked to see, this news missed in the semantic and comprehenshan debate going on.. liver of BRD and Balkrishna beginning to fail...


If they undertook a fast, they must have known of the risks? Whether they die or not their crime in the views of the Centre-left cannot be washed away, can it? They came from the "Hindu" religious background to demand action on black-money/corruption or dared to make such demands without drafting full bills. Had they been Owaisis from Hyderabad or sundry Maulanas of respectable intensely constitutional authorities like the Islamist parties demanding things from the streets of Kolkata, or the Mulsim Personal Law Board - demanding implementation of foreign fatwas [recognized by the Indian constitution? placed as detailed bill before the government? ] by Indian citizens - it would have been okay.

The intensely constitutional demand for action against the Shah Bano judgment was placed in the form of a fully fleshed detailed bill on the streets, was it? And it was then simply tabled in the parliament - with no input and work needed from the lected representatives?

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby harbans » 10 Jun 2011 15:55

Sanku Ji, i am neither BR camp nor a Psec. My posts since years have reflected that clearly. I am appalled at the way the GOI broke the rally and will absolutely not mind if heads are to roll on that account. Will be glad infact. What i am more concerned is moving with the momentum of point 1..and sidelining the egoistic dramabaji Psec-BR camp brigade discussions. For moving forward a debate is essential on how to go about the issue if there is momentum. For that Point 2 specifics are required. However as i again say the discussion is again as you posted veering to 3. IMHO 3 is irrelevant to the issue of corruption. Somnath ji's like/ dislike of BR will not effect the issue of corruption. But can we move ahead and see what can be realistically done? Or do we want to continue keep discussing/ putting people into slots different camps or question disputable motives? The choice is yours. I'd rather see a list of doables/ achievables and use the awareness to make that happen.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sanku » 10 Jun 2011 16:02

harbans wrote:IMHO 3 is irrelevant to the issue of corruption.


Harbans-ji, the issue of corruption in ONLY about item 3. The deracinated NEED methods to keep themselves in power at all costs and that comes from corruption.

Corruption is the essential system on which DiE power is based. This point MUST be understood.

The question is ONLY of the WILL. As B-ji pointed out, GoI has enough energy to create a Fatwa-endorsement-bill in terms of Shah Bano judgment in a fraction if needed.

There are enough drafts also given with the list of 10 demands (I am aware of those) -- this is NOT a issue of details, not at all. This is a issue of showing clear cut determined will.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Manishw » 10 Jun 2011 16:16

^^ Sanku Ji,
One small question in all sincerity even after B Ji and you have explained it no. of times the people who want cut and dried finished piece of proposals agreed to by everybody, will even think about what you are saying.IMHO not.This will be clear to even an intellectually challenged person a needless debate to drag in the minutaes of things , smear RD and make sure that the anti corruption drive halts in middle.Corruption in the hands in the Imperials is a huge weapon which almost everybody can see.People who do such things will continue since they perceive their existence and continuation in a different way.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby harbans » 10 Jun 2011 16:18

Harbans-ji, the issue of corruption in ONLY about item 3. The deracinated NEED methods to keep themselves in power at all costs and that comes from corruption.

Sanku Ji with due apologies, but corruption is so endemic in India it cut's across all lines and hues of the political and religious spectrum. The BJP too was in power for several years, Non congress govts have been there too. Was the will to tackle corruption missing? The Mayawati's Karunanidhi's, Raja's Jayalitha's and Laloo's are from different spectrums and certainly not from your page 3 BR sneering elite on which the focus is being drawn. If the discussion continues on these grounds we may as well stop talking about 'corruption' as an Issue. Start an andolan or thread about racinating the deracinated. Why talk about corruption then?

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Manishw » 10 Jun 2011 16:20

shirt open torn fly drag an drag.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Manishw » 10 Jun 2011 16:22

Pranav wrote:Recent lecture by Swamy in Chandigarh:


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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby harbans » 10 Jun 2011 16:25

shirt open torn fly drag an drag.

Are you here just to flame bait? Did you read what context i posted that? Do you have an iota of honesty in comprehension? The poster says corruption is the result of the deracinated elite. I say and most here will vouch it runs across the political and social spectrum. There is no one in the country that disputes that. This is the first time i am hearing that corruption in India is the symptom of one hue of folks. The example i gave was proving that, this is not correct. BR's drive was against corruption. Your drive is against a Psec elite. Ironically you're still not focussing on the issue which BR wants us to focus: Corruption.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Manishw » 10 Jun 2011 16:28

You want a debate. Aint getting one from me.Try elsewhere.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby harbans » 10 Jun 2011 16:31

You want a debate. Aint getting one from me.Try elsewhere.

No you don't possess the basic comprehension and qualities required to make a difference to any discussion. Your one liner shoot off sentences are nothing but flame baits. That's all i see you contribute here: Flamebait.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 10 Jun 2011 16:35

harbans wrote:I am searching for such detailed "bills" in manifestos of political parties which they place to the public before the elections on agenda to be pursued if the party gets elected to power or from within the legislature. I have collections of even "inner" manifestos of certain parties - which are meant for internal discussions and not really printed out for external circulation. None of them have it and some items in my collection go back to the 60's - even before I was born.

I'm all for parties being more specific on their agenda's. I'm sure most people here would also like that to be the case. Every party sloganeers on removing corruption, clean governance, improving the lot of poor and blah blah. Then they come into power we know what happens. Tell me one person in India who says we should not end corruption. Asking a party for more specifics is now a bad thing? I don't know what you're spinning inside your head thinking some kind of deception is going on. Asking for further specifics has now become too much to ask? Then what exactly are we discussing here on removing corruption. I have clearly made 3 points right in my first post here. The 3rd point is this that : This is not about 'corruption' anymore. This is about a raw nerve being hit Psec - BR camp. The discussion will be centered now on exactly the theme of 'deception' spins you are accusing others off out of thin air. And if you think you have better ideas to remove corruption, why don't you for a change list out something, rather than just make some accusatory statements in an otherwise meaningless post. Somnath ji at least has done that.


I am not so sure that there is a lot of meaning in what you are posting or what spins inside your head to write it down.

But you still have not

(1) vouched for your statement that there was nothing in the said sequence of posts from a certain source that denigrated "Hinduism".

(2) you still have not responded to my queries about whether it is not possible to be formally an "expert" in "economics" and "law" and still be motivated by a hidden agenda pushing for a particular political party position and agenda. This would manifest for example in persistent bias observable in lambasting, using slang and gratuitous invectives against only certain political parties or ideologies and never, ever criticizing or using similar terminology for anything connected to an apparently untouchable set of ideologies and parties. Or even trying to pass off say a certain Congress leaders role in 1984 rioting as "Hindu loony" activity will perhaps appear to you sweet examples of "economic" and "legal" illumination!

(3) you do not seem to have anything to say about why the "fatwaists" were not and are still not dubbable "exra-constitutional".

(4) you do not respond to the point that the Shah Bano "bill" was not given out in full specifics, no one like you demanded greater "specifics" from the street agitations or Maulanas as a pre-condition for tabling such a bill. No one seemed even to think that even the voices of Islamists demanding such a thing were illegitimate because they had not given a "specific" bill.

You seem to be deliberately avoiding the point that BR and his co-movers are not a legislative political party. They have no real obligation to table a detailed "bill" which is the duty of the elected representatives - a duty these elected reps seem to be most eager to do even without "specifics", no questions asked, if the demand comes from particular religious backgrounds. But while BR and co-movers do not have the obligation to provide more "specifics" they have the right to demand based on broader principles according to their perceptions.

What you are trying to claim is that between the formal elected representatives, and the people who elect them once every five years - there can be no other demands placed during the duration of the legislature, and no subgorups of the society can take up issues and agitate over them unless they give "specifics" to your particular satisfaction.

In a way, you are reflecting the Congress tendency to appropriate control over protest or counter-currents both inside and outside the parliament, a demand by the Congress "centre" to control public discourse. That, if you are not choosing to be deliberately blind, is the beginning of Nazism or totalitarianism.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Manishw » 10 Jun 2011 16:41

harbans wrote:You want a debate. Aint getting one from me.Try elsewhere.

No you don't possess the basic comprehension and qualities required to make a difference to any discussion. Your one liner shoot off sentences are nothing but flame baits. That's all i see you contribute here: Flamebait.


Troll would aptly suit you.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 10 Jun 2011 16:48

Moreover, if someone has supposedly posed some "specifics" on some "issues" - that does not take away the right of others to talk on the issue without giving specifics satisfactory for this or that individual.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Manishw » 10 Jun 2011 17:00

BR is in a really serious condition. Sri Sri has gone to the hospital to convince him to change his mind.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sanku » 10 Jun 2011 17:04

Manishw wrote:^^ Sanku Ji,
One small question in all sincerity even after B Ji and you have explained it no. of times the people who want cut and dried finished piece of proposals agreed to by everybody, will even think about what you are saying.IMHO not.


Manishw ji, as on many other threads, the attempt is to keep saying the truth, and saying it repeatedly in the hope that at least the untruths masquerading as debates and or PoV do not infect other innocent minds though creation of FUD.

We will do what we can in our limited capabilities. This is our little satyagarh in the little space we can influence.

========================

harbans wrote:Sanku Ji with due apologies, but corruption is so endemic in India it cut's across all lines and hues of the political and religious spectrum.


You are mixing up many issues here Sir;

1) You are not differentiating between the original sin and those who are forced to follow on. This is a bit like saying, "all learn English and neglect their mother tounge" while NOT realizing that SOME created conditions that not knowing English was a disaster in India, and OTHERS are just forced to follow on.

Clearly the root and the fountainhead of corruption is indeed the DiE system. The socialist control was same, to not allow Indians to rise up to power levels and cut down other Indian powers who were not playing ball to low levels.

Same with Govt control of Hindu institutions.

There is a prime reason and force, and others who are forced to submit.

2) Trying to mix different levels of corruption, yes corruption is endemic, YET is important to remember that corruption actually DECREASED between 96-2004 as measured by transparency international and other metrics.

Clearly the last 6-7 years are unique in the sense of massive LOOT and PERSONAL corruption at HIGHEST echelons.

The LEVEL and the NATURE of the beast are very very DIFFERENT now.

3) The SNEERING elite on Page 3 OWE their existence to the people who are in power, for that they are willing to look away and in many cases actually participate willingly.

It will help to SEPARATE the SYMPTOMS from the ROOT CAUSE.

(Apologize for the CAPS, just stressing a few words)

Virupaksha
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Virupaksha » 10 Jun 2011 17:24

Ramana garu,

You had posted Shiv Vishwanathan's post. I have studied under him. Lets just say he is a completely wacky social scientist.

somnath
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby somnath » 10 Jun 2011 17:27

Atri wrote:BR bashers should ask for medical explanation from their kids, when it starts crying in midnight out of pain. Unless the kid explains what is happening and suggest a medically coherent solution to the pain, they should not call doctor.. One may replace the kid with one's old father, brother, mother or wife who does not have MD in medicine. anything lower (MBBS included) is totally unacceptable.. Neglect the person, let the Mofo die. the ignorant a$$hole does not have right to live and cry out loud in pain, unless he/she specifically describes the nature of problem along with a comprehensible and plausible solution to the pain.

Jay ho...

What an analogy...Stretching it, child cries out in pain - BR devotee grandaunt suggests Baba's vibhuti followed by 30 min shavaasan as remedy - parents should pay heed to that, and spend time understanding the meaning of how vibhuti can cure ills, rather than trying to find the nearest doc :evil:

What an incredible strawman - questions on the basic content of BR's axioms tantamount to asking for draft bills! Between statements of intent and a Parliamentary Bill, there is a huge distance (between a smart idea and implementing it in businees, there is a huge distance!)...But whats the point traversing the distance if the idea itself is a load of bunkum!?

One can understand if politicians, even wannabe ones like BR dont want/prefer to engage in the substantive issues..Rhetoric is easier on the mind, as well as seemingly better to gain media attention...But, whats the problem in an internet forum?

The here-and-now, substantive, material policy frameowrks to tackle the issue is there - I listed them down in an earlier post, along with the critique of BR's list of axioms....But then, that is hardly as exciting an activity as serial abuse towards INC, Commie, Muslims, Maoists, Swami Agnivesh, Arundhati Roy, Shekhar Gupta, Page 3 and every single strawman target that can be invented..
Last edited by somnath on 10 Jun 2011 17:32, edited 2 times in total.

harbans
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby harbans » 10 Jun 2011 17:29

(1) vouched for your statement that there was nothing in the said sequence of posts from a certain source that denigrated "Hinduism".

Yes show me where?

(2) you still have not responded to my queries about whether it is not possible to be formally an "expert" in "economics" and "law" and still be motivated by a hidden agenda pushing for a particular political party position and agenda. This would manifest for example in persistent bias observable in lambasting, using slang and gratuitous invectives against only certain political parties or ideologies and never, ever criticizing or using similar terminology for anything connected to an apparently untouchable set of ideologies and parties. Or even trying to pass off say a certain Congress leaders role in 1984 rioting as "Hindu loony" activity will perhaps appear to you sweet examples of "economic" and "legal" illumination!


I answered you query earlier quite clearly. Economists come in different hues. Marxist to free market. 'Brilliance' is spread across the spectrum and is not a condition for 'good' only. And what is hidden about his agenda? So what if he is in favor of INC? I see many here that favor the BJP. Every one of voting age in India has some sort of preference. What is that hidden agenda you are uncovering? But on this thread i am not here to talk on his preferences. You can consult and speak to him yourself.

3) you do not seem to have anything to say about why the "fatwaists" were not and are still not dubbable "exra-constitutional".

I don't know what you implied. What on fatwas do you want me to comment on a thread on Corruption?

(4) you do not respond to the point that the Shah Bano "bill" was not given out in full specifics, no one like you demanded greater "specifics" from the street agitations or Maulanas as a pre-condition for tabling such a bill. No one seemed even to think that even the voices of Islamists demanding such a thing were illegitimate because they had not given a "specific" bill.

Brihaspati Ji, i don't seem to be commenting on a lot of inanities you have posted because that all is OT.

You seem to be deliberately avoiding the point that BR and his co-movers are not a legislative political party. They have no real obligation to table a detailed "bill" which is the duty of the elected representatives


I have already mentioned that the need is for people to be more specific. If some one is sitting and making a demand from the Government. Me and a billion others would like to know what is being demanded. What specific changes are being sought, how they intend going about it at least in some detail/ specifics. This is a very basic requirement. You yourself are asking specifics from my post, yet on this very topic you fail to ask the same question on how to go about this? Ironic no? hy be specific at all? Lets throw around general one liners or post a long passage with slant references and meaningless inanity around. Lets do some sloganeering and paper it all around. Lets make that the standard. Why not, no?

In a way, you are reflecting the Congress tendency to appropriate control over protest or counter-currents both inside and outside the parliament, a demand by the Congress "centre" to control public discourse. That, if you are not choosing to be deliberately blind, is the beginning of Nazism or totalitarianism.


B Ji, i request you take a break. You need one. You are reading too much into nothing. I'm being very honest here 8)

Nesoj
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Nesoj » 10 Jun 2011 17:37

Arjun wrote:Sagarika, Somnath, Sugriva, Nesoj.....if I am not wrong all are Bengalis (would request the concerned to correct me if I am wrong).


Oooooo .... actually a much deadlier combination .... Mallu, who did his schooling in a Catholic Boarding school in West Bengal .. UG in TN, PG in Maharashtra. First job in Kanpur / Delhi (10 years) and since then in Middle East

Now where do I fit in your sociological chart or have I just jumped off the graph ??? posting.php?mode=quote&f=1&p=1107832#

Venkarl
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Venkarl » 10 Jun 2011 17:38

The thread title says "Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill" and what are you Gurus discussing here? taking pot shots at each other? Sweeping statements on Bengalis? seriously wow...You want to bash Anna and BRD, go open a thread and bash 'em there...else nukkad is always there.

Arrey focus on steps for atleast preventing if not stopping corruption in whole. Please maintain the high regards that BRF has maintained so far.

Pranav
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Pranav » 10 Jun 2011 17:58

There is no getting away from the fact that the only way to change the system is via elections.

Transparency and verifiability of elections should be the single-point agenda. We can't call ourselves a democracy, because we don't have it today. Once that is assured, this country will go where its people want to take it.

Nobody is running a charity here. Those who are happy without transparent and verifiable elections, as most of us are, will get kicked around. And deserve to get kicked around. That is simply the nature of political power. Chaanakya understood it 2400 years ago, but we have allowed ourselves to get confused.

SwamyG
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby SwamyG » 10 Jun 2011 18:05

Folks in India: What does a common man think about all this? What is the public sentiment in the rural, semi-urban and urban areas? I heard in the South there is not much public discussion on this among aam admi.

harbans
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby harbans » 10 Jun 2011 18:14

BR has a face book page on his agenda:

What is the agenda of your party, Bharat Swabhiman Andolan?

Our first aim is to get back to India the Rs 300 lakh crore stashed away in Swiss banks and use it for the country’s development. I want to withdraw the rupee and issue a new currency, and take the old money out of criminals’ pockets. Second, I want a law that seeks death penalty for corruption, adultery, rape, dowry and slaughter of cows.

The British formulated policies to loot the country. Legal professionals in my political party are convinced that the age old Indian Penal Code must be replaced by stricter laws. We will call for a boycott of all foreign companies, and campaign to make yoga compulsory in schools to improve children’s IQ, prevent drug addiction, and curb sexual feelings among teenagers.


http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_i ... 7&comments

More from Wikipedia/ From his website:

For changing governance policies, he has initiated a movement named Bharat Swabhiman along with Rajiv Dixit.

The five goals[12] of Bharat Swabhiman campaign are:

1. 100% voting
2. 100% nationalist thought,
3. 100% boycott of foreign companies and adoption of swadeshi,
4. 100% unification of the people of the nation and
5. 100% yoga-oriented nation.


And from his website:

5 Vows of Bharat Swabhiman Andolan:

1. We will only vote for patriotic, honest, valiant, farsighted, and skillful people. We ourselves will vote 100% and also make others vote.
2. We will unite all patriotic, sincere, aware, sensitive, intelligent and honest people together 100% and uniting the powers of the nation will bring about a new freedom, new system and new change. We will make Bharat the biggest superpower in the world.
3. We will 100% boycott foreign goods made with zero technology and adopt indigenous goods.
4. We will adopt nationalist thought 100%, and while in our personal lives we observe Hindu, Islam, Christian, Sikh, Buddhist, Jain, etc. religious traditions, in our public lives we will live like a true Bharatiya.
5. We will make the entire country 100% yoga-oriented and make the citizens inward-focused by making them healthy and arouse the feeling of self-pride
in each one by removing the cheating, corruption, hopelessness, disbelief and self-languor arising because of self-confusion, and awaken Bharat’s sleeping self-respect by building national character.
Last edited by harbans on 10 Jun 2011 18:18, edited 1 time in total.

Pranav
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Pranav » 10 Jun 2011 18:15

^^^ probably an unauthorized facebook page.

devesh
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby devesh » 10 Jun 2011 18:33

somnath wrote:
Atri wrote:BR bashers should ask for medical explanation from their kids, when it starts crying in midnight out of pain. Unless the kid explains what is happening and suggest a medically coherent solution to the pain, they should not call doctor.. One may replace the kid with one's old father, brother, mother or wife who does not have MD in medicine. anything lower (MBBS included) is totally unacceptable.. Neglect the person, let the Mofo die. the ignorant a$$hole does not have right to live and cry out loud in pain, unless he/she specifically describes the nature of problem along with a comprehensible and plausible solution to the pain.

Jay ho...

What an analogy...Stretching it, child cries out in pain - BR devotee grandaunt suggests Baba's vibhuti followed by 30 min shavaasan as remedy - parents should pay heed to that, and spend time understanding the meaning of how vibhuti can cure ills, rather than trying to find the nearest doc :evil:

What an incredible strawman - questions on the basic content of BR's axioms tantamount to asking for draft bills! Between statements of intent and a Parliamentary Bill, there is a huge distance (between a smart idea and implementing it in businees, there is a huge distance!)...But whats the point traversing the distance if the idea itself is a load of bunkum!?

One can understand if politicians, even wannabe ones like BR dont want/prefer to engage in the substantive issues..Rhetoric is easier on the mind, as well as seemingly better to gain media attention...But, whats the problem in an internet forum?

The here-and-now, substantive, material policy frameowrks to tackle the issue is there - I listed them down in an earlier post, along with the critique of BR's list of axioms....But then, that is hardly as exciting an activity as serial abuse towards INC, Commie, Muslims, Maoists, Swami Agnivesh, Arundhati Roy, Shekhar Gupta, Page 3 and every single strawman target that can be invented..



now your true colors come out. so much takleef for the supposed "abuse" suffered by INC/Commie/Islamists/Maoists/Agnivesh/ARoy, etc....

somnath, let me ask you some questions? is everybody in your family well versed in all the little intricacies and details of laws and legal code? i'm sure there are at least a few who don't. so, are they allowed to take a stand on their views? are they allowed to speak up about their views? to gather with like minded people let their voices be heard in the public arena? to protest in peaceful means to bring notice to their views, especially if those views appeal emotionally to lakhs and crores of people across the country???

why do you hate anything with "saffron" so much? why is that the same "extra constitutional" BS has not come out of your mouth about fatwas, NAC, etc. why is it only Hindu Yoga gurus who are the evil people trying to bend and distort "electoral politics." what about Islamists who campaign for Political Islam, like Sharia, fatwas, etc? what about them? they don't even have any agenda that serves the nation. their only agenda is to impose ever more regressive rules on Muslims and hold onto their ill gotten power.....BRD is actually giving voice to the frustrations and real concerns of crores of people? why all this takleef against a man fighting for GOOD, even if he has some wacky ideas which will be discarded in any public discussion. instead, why all the DIE hatred and fear against BRD???

devesh
BRF Oldie
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby devesh » 10 Jun 2011 18:35

we need to be careful with Facebook pages, before we give them validity. in recent months, I've seen several examples of fake pages in US which are used to smear famous people and celebrities and gain attention. does India have any laws against this? anyway, let's be careful before jumping on that facebook page.

brihaspati
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 10 Jun 2011 18:40

harbans wrote:(1) vouched for your statement that there was nothing in the said sequence of posts from a certain source that denigrated "Hinduism".
Yes show me where?


It was your claim that there was no "intended denigration". I merely asked you several times whether you are ready to vouch for what you claimed. You still avoid doing that. Confirm that "there was no denigration" and then will come to question of pointing out "where".

(2) you still have not responded to my queries about whether it is not possible to be formally an "expert" in "economics" and "law" and still be motivated by a hidden agenda pushing for a particular political party position and agenda. This would manifest for example in persistent bias observable in lambasting, using slang and gratuitous invectives against only certain political parties or ideologies and never, ever criticizing or using similar terminology for anything connected to an apparently untouchable set of ideologies and parties. Or even trying to pass off say a certain Congress leaders role in 1984 rioting as "Hindu loony" activity will perhaps appear to you sweet examples of "economic" and "legal" illumination!


I answered you query earlier quite clearly. Economists come in different hues. Marxist to free market. 'Brilliance' is spread across the spectrum and is not a condition for 'good' only. And what is hidden about his agenda? So what if he is in favor of INC? I see many here that favor the BJP. Every one of voting age in India has some sort of preference. What is that hidden agenda you are uncovering? But on this thread i am not here to talk on his preferences. You can consult and speak to him yourself.


"On this thread" it came up because you insisted that we must trust his outpourings because of his expertise on "economics" and the "law". Agendas come up - since if he has rarely if not ever lambasted the Congress or the Left or even the maoists at the intensive derogatory level that he reserves for others - but always finds time to add a string of invectives only against the RSS/BJP, or say always attached the pair of words "Hindu loony" together and refused to attach such a pair to Muslim or Christian - then his cover of "economics" or "law" also gets suspect. I have seen no such tirade demanding similar specifics from Islamists about their demands from the same source. Which bring us to the next point.

3) you do not seem to have anything to say about why the "fatwaists" were not and are still not dubbable "exra-constitutional".

I don't know what you implied. What on fatwas do you want me to comment on a thread on Corruption?


Of course it can be convenient not to know what is implied. I have repeatedly asked in several posts over the last few pages [you claim to read line by line - or maybe such scanning is reserved for favoured lines of postings onlee] "specifically" pointing out the parallels in "legality" that have been raised so many times on this thread. If you do go back, you will see that one of the primary arguments that was being dished at BR was that his method "was blackmailing" the "elected" government, that his methods were "extra-constitutional". I had clearly connected this to exactly the same issue of "extra-constitutionalism" that arise with the "fatwas", and gave a detailed post on the issues involving Taslima.

Let me clarify the relevance of the issue for this thread again - "extra-constitutionalism" and "blackmailing the elected government" bypassing "the electoral process" was the charge repeatedly being brought against BR on this thread. I have looked back, you did not seem to mind at all. My question therefore quite clearly was, if the fatwaists are not challenged similarly by the Congress or its government for extra-constitutionalism what is the justification to raise the charge of "extra-constitutionalism" only against BR?

(4) you do not respond to the point that the Shah Bano "bill" was not given out in full specifics, no one like you demanded greater "specifics" from the street agitations or Maulanas as a pre-condition for tabling such a bill. No one seemed even to think that even the voices of Islamists demanding such a thing were illegitimate because they had not given a "specific" bill.

Brihaspati Ji, i don't seem to be commenting on a lot of inanities you have posted because that all is OT.


Sure, the tactic is similar to your favourite poster. Shah Bano case has to be bypassed as an inanity and painted as irrelevant. The reason : because exactly similar questions you now gloat over as "oh-so-valid" counterpoints against BR would be applicable for Shah Bano issue. The detailed specifics you are so keen on were not asked from the agitating Muslims, the latter simply placed a demand. It was the legislators who took it upon themselves to flesh out a specifics laden bill. More importantly none like you seem to have been asking to see the agitating muslim's demands as illegitimate because they did not spell out specifics to individual level of satisfaction. But of course you need to avoid the whole issue as "inanity" because that particular welcoming of "specifics" less demands from a street agitation was done under the INC and with keen interests of a scion of the Nehru Gandhi family.


You seem to be deliberately avoiding the point that BR and his co-movers are not a legislative political party. They have no real obligation to table a detailed "bill" which is the duty of the elected representatives


I have already mentioned that the need is for people to be more specific. If some one is sitting and making a demand from the Government. Me and a billion others would like to know what is being demanded. What specific changes are being sought, how they intend going about it at least in some detail/ specifics. This is a very basic requirement. You yourself are asking specifics from my post, yet on this very topic you fail to ask the same question on how to go about this? Ironic no? hy be specific at all? Lets throw around general one liners or post a long passage with slant references and meaningless inanity around. Lets do some sloganeering and paper it all around. Lets make that the standard. Why not, no?


This is sure going to be tricky. Yes I don't mind specifics. But are you sure you want to do this? its going to be fun. Remember anything that you say on any issue will be subject to this "specifics" clause - any demand, any claim, any desired outline changes you want to in anything - will need specifics. Oh and is it you and your favourite "economics" and "law" authority who will decide what is satisfactory as "specifics" and what inconveniences to the Centre Left are to be dismissed as "inanities"?


In a way, you are reflecting the Congress tendency to appropriate control over protest or counter-currents both inside and outside the parliament, a demand by the Congress "centre" to control public discourse. That, if you are not choosing to be deliberately blind, is the beginning of Nazism or totalitarianism.

B Ji, i request you take a break. You need one. You are reading too much into nothing. I'm being very honest here 8)

[/quote]

No you are avoiding the issue. You seek to control what form, and who raise their voices outside the parliament. You seek to make that right to raise voice conditional on approval from the government [which as I have shown and which you consciously avoid - is biased in the INC towards only promoting and accepting "non-specifics" demands if they come from the fatwaists] and individuals like yourself and other experts on "economics" and "law" approved by you - as to what is legitimate in terms of "specifics".

As for long posts with slants, and outright arrogant cursing with slangs, yes sure you know them - from perusing line by line commentaries with long hanging-in-the-air ellipsis from experts on law and economics.


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