The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[devesh]

Tax reforms are a sine qua non, that is the big necessary condition to tackle black money...But abolishing IT completely? That makes no sense..

For one, direct taxes are "progressive" in nature..So people earning more pay more tax..Indirect taxes (VAT et al) are on non-progressive, if there is a VAT of 15% on grains, a chap earning 1 lac rupees pays as much as a chap earning 10 lac...

People earning 'more' money normally buy 'more luxurious' items. By abolishing income tax and 'progressively increasing' the rate of VAT on (say) semi luxurious (30%), luxurious (45%) and super luxurious (60%) items, will bring in the money that we stand to loose in direct taxes. This could be for all items across the board (food, clothing, electronics, vehicles, building material etc etc)

Further this will bring in additional monies from the so far untapped 'rich agriculturists' income. I personally know of farmers (if one can call them so) earning incomes of 2 to 3 lakhs a month and splurging on super luxury items (Carrera marble floored farms, luxury SUV's etc) but not paying tax as the income is 'agricultural' in nature.

The consumer would then have nothing to hide (no direct taxes) and forced to pay (in the form of indirect taxes) in the event of wanting to spend ones money. Again there would be no

agree. from what I understand Indian already has VAT. but to increase VAT coverage to the levels you are proposing, IT has to be abolished. you can't have both IT and a progressive VAT with universal coverage. that's too much money going to the govt. if VAT has to be given such "power," then get rid of IT. this proposal has been put forward in US too. but it will never get accepted in all the political battles of US Congress.

[Sanku]

on a side note: this thread is the greatest example of hijacking by one poster.

And the discussion has shifted from culpability of Sonia Gandhi and almost the entire cabinet being accused of one or the other massive scam/loot to inane topics.

As people are distracted into trivialities

-- should the draft be printed on A4 size paper or blue paper?
What is the potential impact of the choice of paper on the issue of generation of black money.
Do significant studies exist to show that printing of draft on blue paper will be beneficial?
Should we not first form a empowered high power committee to find out whether blue or white paper should be used?

After all the devil is in details onlee no?

[somnath]

So? ... Whats the point? Please explain

The fact that under the criminal law as it exists today, all alleged crimes need to be "admitted" by a court of law before prosecution proceedings can begin...The judge (or bench) decides based on the preliminary complaint and investigation whether there is a prima facie case - its only after that the case is admitted and the process begins...What I have proposed for the PM is something pretty similar, the difference being that the SC bench will validate a complaint as having prima facie evidence/validity for the Lokpal to act on, rather than a court trial...

PM and government already have an army of Lawyers to protect them. The common man doesn't, PM and government are rich enough to buy any protection they need.

The issue isnt about the "common man" vis a vis the PM...Its about vested interests, that have more than enough money at their disposal cranking up pressure on a particular PM by starting to file reams of complaints...As a random example, remember VP Singh and St Kitts, that imaginary "corruption" case against him? It durfaced surprisingly when he as FM initiated "tax raids" (used ot be an FM pet tool those days) against certain business groups, in fact specifically a certain group...

The suggestion perhaps also goes some way in alleviating the fears of people like Fali Nariman and Soli Sorabjee, who dont want the PM to be in the ambit at all...

mean 1) didn't the supreme court recently complain regarding government being lax in providing proper funding to the court system, 2) 20 million court cases pending some dragging on years end and years out, 3) large number of vacancy of judges in the court system

There is not one arm of the govt that does not complain about lack of funding...Obviously if we had US levels of resources, we would also have US levels of infrastructure, not just in courts...But to conclude from that that the govt uses funding as a lever to get its own way with institutions is stretching it beyond credulity..No one from these places, not RBI, not EC, nor indeed the judiciary has ever said that...

For Lokpal, the bill already lays down:
1. The fact thatLokpal will have its own plans on apointment of employees.
2. All salaries and expeenses will be charged to the Consolodtae Fund of India..
3. There is a Lokpal Fund under full discretion of the Lokpal
4. Plans for "special judges" submitted by Lokpal need to be cleared within 3 months..

It is actually an amazingly flexible structure at the discretion of the Lokpal - not sure how "funding squeeze" can be applied, even if someone were to take that view...

CVC, RBI, EC are all bodies with specific purpose. they have a specific mandate. a specific agenda. and are limited to a specific role. RBI performs the role of a Central Bank. and the role of a Central Bank is very well defined in modern times. every major country has a central bank. EC is also a body specifically formed to run elections. they have a specific mandate, and once again, every democratic country has a dedicated Election running process. so, the purpose of this also is very clear.

Lokpal is a completely different game. it will have authority over vast numbers of departments and ministries. it is responsible for "anti-graft," which can be in any place/ministry/state, etc. its mandate allows it to exercise power over a much larger arena. the hesitancy about Lokpal is that it is being supported and framed by people who have been associated with extreme P-secs and NAC. this gives cause to worry that Lokpal will become another NAC, which specifically targets "communal" forces as per their whims and fancies. I simply don't trust any "independent" body that is appointed by MMS. when MMS is involved, it means that Maino is making the real decisions. and we all know what kind of people Maino likes to have, based on her staffing of NAC.

Not every country has an Election Commission like we have in India, with the kind of powers vested in it...As a democracy, elections are the single most imnportant activity in the polity - and the powers vested in the EC in India is quite unprecedented in the "free world"..

Regardless, its starnge that you think laying down monetary policy and regulating the banking sector touch (or affect) less number of people than an anti-corruption body...And of course, a lot of Central bankers will thank you profusely for saying that their role is "well defined"...What about higher judiciary? They too can inteervene in "any department" that they want to, and not only on "crimes", corruption or otherwise, but everything else...They have in the recent past intervened on food policy, security, pollution, bandhs - all matters purportedly in the exective domain...Why shouldnt SC judges be "directly" elected then?

Lokpal does not have "authority" over "any place/ministry", its mandate is also restricted to corruption complaints and cases...So someone doesnt like NREGS (an NAC favourite!), it cannot approach Lokpal for justice! BTW, they can theoretically aprpoch the SC! In that sense, the mandate of Lokpal is as defined as a lot of other such offices...

About you not having faith in any MMS appointee, my friend, then you need to vote him out..Because as PM, he has the authority to appoint his Cabinet, and a whole raft of other constitutional authorities...

Dont understand this "NAC" analogy - lets take some random examples..What is so "ideological" about the appointment of YV Reddy, or Duvvuri Subbarao? Stretching your fears, we should have had en masse intrusion of "islamist motivated monies" (something energetically inisisted upon, without any data or understanding of banking by some people in a differenet discussion) into Indian banking, isnt it?

Lastly, Sonia Gandhi might be an influential politician, but by awarding her with an "ism", you have just elevated her to being an ideologue - her supporters wont mind actually! But I do, purely from an academic perspective..

[somnath]

People earning 'more' money normally buy 'more luxurious' items. By abolishing income tax and 'progressively increasing' the rate of VAT on (say) semi luxurious (30%), luxurious (45%) and super luxurious (60%) items, will bring in the money that we stand to loose in direct taxes. This could be for all items across the board (food, clothing, electronics, vehicles, building material etc etc)

Unfortunately, consumer choices are not always so clear cut as "luxury housing" versus semi-luxury housing...

Food is consumed by all classes, in broadly the same quantities - the class distinctions on goods and services are very blurred, and getting even more blurred with passage of time..Is mobile phone "luxury" or "basic" for example? And indirect tax rates hit the lower income category much more, as % of his income...Mathematically, if taxes on food costs 100 rupees/month, someone earning 1000 rupees pays 10% of his income on the taxes, whilke someone earning 10,000 pays 1%...Income tax on the other hand, is more progressive..

[VikramS]

somnath:

Perhaps you should open your own blog where you can write tomes defending the status-quo and providing counter-arguments that change will not work.


For others here is my perspective:

While India is a republic, the institutions which are supposed to ensure that it functions as a proper representative of the will of the people have been severely compromised. The checks and balances no longer work. The lack of a strong national vision and countless ways to fracture the society have resulted in a system where personal enrichment has replaced national progress as the primary objective of the ruling class.

This system has no incentive to change organically. Change will have to come via some external shock not fully sanctioned under the current polito-legal structure.

The question is how far does the system have to fall before the shock arrives. IMHO, the longer India waits the stronger the disruptive effect of the shock will be.

In some ways BRD movement is an ideal vehicle for providing that shock. It has mass appeal but is inherently passive in nature and based on a moral ground with which millions can relate to. The challenge lies in harnessing this angst in a constructive manner. BRD's objectives may lack the details and the sophistication of the bhadra-lok/civil-society/lokpal council, but they contain fundamental truism which can not be denied.

Unfortunately, there are very few who are willing to take up the awareness and channelize it into a more feasible course of action. The BJP does not know what to do since they are worried that the Baba might hijack their vote-bank. The Congress of course is in a panic mode, constantly invoking their Gods (RSS, RSS, RSS!) as they try to scare their vote banks into activism.

People like Somnath who profess to have a much better understanding of the system than the hoi-polloi of BR of course feel it is below their dignity to pick up the mantle of an uneducated, illiterate god-man who dreams of the day of INR-USD parity.

Indics are missing a golden opportunity, IMHO to break the shackles and rise.

[somnath]

you began the debate by not even acknowledging the "problem" about "civil society." and now that your arguments have been ripped apart by a host of people, you revert your stance and make some cosmetic changes by saying "sure," "problem," etc. now that you've come around to acknowledging these issues as relevant and more than just propaganda by "communal forces," you can tell us what ideas you have to solve these "problems."

What is this "problem about civil society" that I didnt "acknowledge"? And where did I say anything about propaganda by "communal forces" w.r.t Lokpal? Is bringing up strawmen the only way you can make a point?

If you are seriously interested in examining the point, the mention of "civil society" is not necessarily problematic, its the lack of definition of it that is...Today, 10 members of the Rajya Sabha (or is it 15?) are appointed by nominating "eminent" people from the fields of arts, culture etc..One can always have 2 members from that group nominated by the Vice President, who's Chairman RS (who anyways chairs the selction panel for Lokpal)...Needs to be accoridngly defined in the bill..
Why am I "confident"? Because of the changes one has seen from the original draft to er 2.2...I said somewhere that I was myself disappointed with the original draft..But since then, it has changed significantly, espeically on the issues of nomination committee (no Nobel prize winners anymore, thankfully and so on)...So reasonabley expect the final bill to smoothen out the remaining edges.........

Substantively, you can make your point without being either rude or bringing in strawmen - makes no sense to do either..

[Virupaksha]

on a side note: this thread is the greatest example of hijacking by one poster.

And the discussion has shifted from culpability of Sonia Gandhi and almost the entire cabinet being accused of one or the other massive scam/loot to inane topics.

As people are distracted into trivialities

-- should the draft be printed on A4 size paper or blue paper?
What is the potential impact of the choice of paper on the issue of generation of black money.
Do significant studies exist to show that printing of draft on blue paper will be beneficial?
Should we not first form a empowered high power committee to find out whether blue or white paper should be used?

After all the devil is in details onlee no?

makes me remember a column by Jaswanth Singh/Yashwant Sinha where he said more than 10 meetings had to be spent to decide whether red pen can be used, and had to pull his hair out.

[Sanku]

A Shourie, in his book, "Can a iron fence save a tree hollowed by termites"

[Virupaksha]

aah thanks, yup it was arun shourie.

[Arjun]

Lastly, Sonia Gandhi might be an influential politician, but by awarding her with an "ism", you have just elevated her to being an ideologue - her supporters wont mind actually! But I do, purely from an academic perspective..

You pose a good question as to what ideology Sonia represents.

She is of course the most powerful and visible representation of dynasticism in the country. Morover, with the communal violence bill (the first legislative proposal ever to institutionalize communal discrimination in criminal law in India) as well as her association and support over the years for rabid anti-Hindu elements like Digvijay, Swami Agnivesh and John Dayal....Mainoism is best defined as a combination of dynasticism and deep-seated anti-Hinduism.

A valid question that is being asked on this forum, and which Somnath has been repeatedly trying to evade - is how does one ensure that the institution of Lokpal is safeguarded from the corrosive effects of Mainoism. Germans have this paranoia about folks with a Nazi mindset infiltrating their institutions; the US has the same about communist/ socialists. Indians have experienced the ill-effects of Mainoism - and a debate on safeguarding the country's institutions from this corrosive ideology is extremely timely and relevant.

[Nesoj]

Food is consumed by all classes, in broadly the same quantities - the class distinctions on goods and services are very blurred, and getting even more blurred with passage of time..Is mobile phone "luxury" or "basic" for example? And indirect tax rates hit the lower income category much more, as % of his income...Mathematically, if taxes on food costs 100 rupees/month, someone earning 1000 rupees pays 10% of his income on the taxes, whilke someone earning 10,000 pays 1%...Income tax on the other hand, is more progressive..

Food .... cheese for example ... regular fresh paneer - no VAT, packaged paneer - 15%, packaged cheese slices - 30%, mozzarella cheese - 45%, imported Parmesan - 60%
Mobiles - low end Chinese make - 0%, regular - 30%, smartphones - 60%,

The 'loss' of the 'progressive direct taxation' would be compensated by the additional VAT recovered from the consumption of luxury goods by the up-till now untaxed section of society - rich agriculturists / brokers / commission agents - most of whose incomes are either tax free or unreported.

Further when there is no direct tax (ie 'My Money is My Money'), then there is no need for anyone to hide or deposit it abroad, and the money is either spent within the country or invested within the country, with no fear of the Govt wanting a slice of it.

[somnath]

Mobiles - low end Chinese make - 0%, regular - 30%, smartphones - 60%

Two issues with this..One, making these things so granular immediately creates confusion and issues on both compliance and administration - GST tries to simplify the whole classification for everything into simple 3 or 4 buckets...And two, making indirect taxes very high only facilitates the grey and then "black" market..Remember the bad old days when everything from Gold to electronics was being smuggled? Ergo, not only does the govt not make the tax revenues, it also has to contend with a crime scenario engendered...

A valid question that is being asked on this forum, and which Somnath has been repeatedly trying to evade - is how does one ensure that the institution of Lokpal is safeguarded from the corrosive effects of Mainoism

Evasion??? If you think "Maino-ism" (whatever that means) is so dangerous, then quite frankly Lokpal is a small fish to deal with, almost irrelevant as it is a still-born...You need to worry about far bigger fish around in the pool - its a "mainwadi" who has his finger on the nuke button, there are mainowadis entering into sovereign treaties with foreign countries, "mainowadis" are making economic policy, setting interest rates, appointing lower judges, all constitutional functionaries, and yes, mainowadis are controlling the armed forces of the union...And many other important things here and now..And yes, the oft-quote instance of NAC - its a small small fry in the scheme of things finally its nothing but an advisory body whose output has to end up in Parliament for vetting...

Solution?? As I mentioend before, vote the "mainowadis" out! After all, their "control" is a result of their mandate...

Personally, I have a far greater amount of confidence in India and its system of checks and balances...People can make money on the side using position and influence, but wholesale subversion, a la Nazism? Was always difficult, its even more difficult today...

[Arjun]

Personally, I have a far greater amount of confidence in India and its system of checks and balances...People can make money on the side using position and influence, but wholesale subversion of basic policy? Was always difficult, its even more difficult today...

The concern of subversion of the system has quite frankly, only got amplified by the events of the last 6 months. It is therefore good for India that this debate on Lokpal and the potential for subversion of institutions is happening now as opposed to sometime in the past when the threat was not so explicit.

Do you disagree that the INC is threatening to subvert the very meaning of 'secular' which is a basis of our constitution - by redefining secularism to meaning that discrimination against Hindus will be institutionalized in the criminal law of this country? Do you disagree with the fact that this subversion has no chance of being stopped if the government has the numbers in parliament to back it up?

If the INC has bared its fangs to openly subvert the Indian constitution, do you think there would be any compunctions whatsoever to subverting other institutions?

[Tamang]

Posted?

Government aided RIL in gas contract, lost money: CAG

[somnath]

^^^I posted this in the "Indian Economy" thread..

Cases like this is perfect example of what is "not right" in the approach to corruption, and therefore what needs to be done...There is far too much residuary powers entrusted with the govt...In this case, the the oil regulator, DGHC is actually structured as more of department under the Ministry..Ergo, it willy nilly becomes a tool of the executive, rather than a indepenent regulator...

Take this off, create better regulatory structures, and the opportunities for rent seeking will immediately reduce...Which is what needs to be done - in sector after sector...

[somnath]

The concern of subversion of the system has quite frankly, only got amplified by the events of the last 6 months. It is therefore good for India that this debate on Lokpal and the potential for subversion of institutions is happening now as opposed to sometime in the past when the threat was not so explicit

It will be OT on this thread, but the threats of "subversion", of either the polity or the basic character of the naiton state, real or imagined, have been around for many years..Wasnt the Emergency an instance of attempted subversion? Didnt Babri Masjid 1992 signal something seriously wrong? (JN Dixit, Foreign Secy then, in fact sent a message to all envoys asking them to tell the world that this was only a temporary setback to the "India story", not a definite change for the worse - or some such, I am paraphrasing from memory)...Mandal seemed to tear the nation apart, I remember vividly from my school days...I know its a red rag here, but many people feared the worst after Gujarat 2002....All of these were acts of state-sponsored/tolerated commissions...But India shrug off each of these, and emerged stronger each time - Mani Dxit was right...

Compared to all the above, stupid vote-bank attempts at lousy draft bills are really inanities...Mulayam Yadav tried announcing a friday holiday in UP..What happened? Not onyl was the step not taken, he was reduced to a #3 position in about 3 years' time...JMT...

[Aditya_V]

The concern of subversion of the system has quite frankly, only got amplified by the events of the last 6 months. It is therefore good for India that this debate on Lokpal and the potential for subversion of institutions is happening now as opposed to sometime in the past when the threat was not so explicit

It will be OT on this thread, but the threats of "subversion", of either the polity or the basic character of the naiton state, real or imagined, have been around for many years..Wasnt the Emergency an instance of attempted subversion? Didnt Babri Masjid 1992 signal something seriously wrong? (JN Dixit, Foreign Secy then, in fact sent a message to all envoys asking them to tell the world that this was only a temporary setback to the "India story", not a definite change for the worse - or some such, I am paraphrasing from memory)...Mandal seemed to tear the nation apart, I remember vividly from my school days...I know its a red rag here, but many people feared the worst after Gujarat 2002....All of these were acts of state-sponsored/tolerated commissions...But India shrug off each of these, and emerged stronger each time - Mani Dxit was right...

Compared to all the above, stupid vote-bank attempts at lousy draft bills are really inanities...Mulayam Yadav tried announcing a friday holiday in UP..What happened? Not onyl was the step not taken, he was reduced to a #3 position in about 3 years' time...JMT...

Somnath easy to say State sponsored comminsion but if the State is caught on the Back foot by a Godhra type incident where many hundreds in one community participated it is very difficult to Bring control. Tomorrow say Muslim Western Europeans or Muslim Americans as a commnunity block a Bus and burn people and stop fire engines from attending to it- do you think the reprisals in America or Western Europe will be any less, I can bet there will be riot far worse than what was in Gujarat. Bomb blasts are different as everyone understand that it is a handiwork of a few misguided personal- like say ISI attack on Swaminarayan Temple in Gujarat. No Government in India can react switly and control Godhra Type incidents.. America has killed Hundreds of thousands in in Iraq and Afganistan in name of war on Terror.

Besides, unlike the violence in against Pundits in J&K 255 Hindus also died out of Total of 1132, many in Police Firing and hundreds are in jail and convictions are taking place. This is complete contrast with records of other riots in India especially recently where 10 Hindus were Killed in Assam and passed of Ethnic clashes by the Media.


A comparision of the Hypocracy- when it comes to Babri Masjid, Guilt is with those who broke the Mosque but none on those who started the subsquent riots. In Godhra, all guilt is on those who started the subsquent riots but none on those who burnt the Train. Many of persons convicted in Godhra belonged to one main National Political party.

Further, you dont hear many cases in the Media like where a Prominent TMC MP say to the destruction of Kali temple, this was an election promise. Death of people in NE , WB, O;ld Hyderabad, COmmunal incidents are not being reported.

Try going to Old Hyderabad and stay there and if by Mistake your vehicle blocks the way of Mr Owasi car. See whats happens.

[somnath]

^^^AdityaV-ji, I am not discussing the relative merits of each incident here, that would OT..Only responding to Arjun's point - all 4 incidents quoting have had widely held beliefs of state sponsorship/tolerance -and do note that 2 out of the 4 were in INC regimes, 1 in a similar "psec" regime and only 1 in a BJP regime ..The limited point was that conrary to fears then, none of them ended up subverting basic contours of the Indian nation state..

[milindc]

The concern of subversion of the system has quite frankly, only got amplified by the events of the last 6 months. It is therefore good for India that this debate on Lokpal and the potential for subversion of institutions is happening now as opposed to sometime in the past when the threat was not so explicit

It will be OT on this thread, but the threats of "subversion", of either the polity or the basic character of the naiton state, real or imagined, have been around for many years..Wasnt the Emergency an instance of attempted subversion? Didnt Babri Masjid 1992 signal something seriously wrong? (JN Dixit, Foreign Secy then, in fact sent a message to all envoys asking them to tell the world that this was only a temporary setback to the "India story", not a definite change for the worse - or some such, I am paraphrasing from memory)...Mandal seemed to tear the nation apart, I remember vividly from my school days...I know its a red rag here, but many people feared the worst after Gujarat 2002....All of these were acts of state-sponsored/tolerated commissions...But India shrug off each of these, and emerged stronger each time - Mani Dxit was right...

Why did you forget the 1984 Sikh genocide? Did MANY people you interact with, did not fear anything during that time?

[Arjun]

It will be OT on this thread, but the threats of "subversion", of either the polity or the basic character of the naiton state, real or imagined, have been around for many years.

I don't want to comment on the other instances you have mentioned and whether are not they are equivalent to the case I made...that would be OT.

As far as this topic goes, the point is that the potential solution / mechanism for Lokpal also needs to be evaluated from the standpoint of the potential for subversion. What I mean by that is that (a) the Lokpal himself / herself obviously needs to be incorruptible so that she can go after corruption. And should not be looking at any private gain from a public position. More importantly (b) the Lokpal also should neither be having any pre-existing ideological motivation nor can be influenced by an political / ideological motivation which would make him / her misuse powers so as to benefit that ideology.

One of the posts by Brihaspati actually validates this point. Here is what the honorable Archbishop of Delhi would ideally like the Lokpal and anti-corruption bill to address:

The Jesuit points to the recent case that has seen the participation of thousands of poor farmers in Gujarat, who protested against the forced expropriation of land by a powerful industry, without success.

And again, the case for human rights activist Amit Jethwa, who was killed in broad daylight for denouncing the interests of a group affiliated to the BJP, involved in a series of illegal excavations in the Gir Forest.

"With all these episodes and others - concludes the Jesuit - we urgently need a real anti-corruption law in order to understand how widespread the rot is

So if anybody was under the misapprehension that corruption is not something that can be made an ideological football - they are obviously very mistaken. We are not talking about political inclinations out here. We have the Archbishop of Delhi openly making his case on what kinds of deeds (or should we say which regions?) constitute corruption. Do you seriously believe that any reasonably faithful Christian, however nationalist, will not be influenced by such outrageously motivated talk?

Which is why the process of selection becomes critically important.

[somnath]

Which is why the process of selection becomes critically important.

100%..

But Lokpal is but one of many constitutional functionaries...Going with the ceteris paribus principal that anyone appointed by "mainowadis" would be a "mainowadi" himself means attention should be given to the selection of everyone - RBI guv, CVC, judges of superior courts, Defence Chiefs, the whole lot.....Why should anti-corruption be the only space for ideological football or subversion?

Which is why asked for concrete examples of appointments (of constittuional functioanries) to be taken for measurement of their "mainowadi"-ness quotient (MQ, if you will!)...Once we do that, we will know what is the lacuna in the respective processes of various functionaies, and modify the Lokpal selection process with that knowledge...

[devaraj_d]

Quote "Vikram S"

""Perhaps you should open your own blog where you can write tomes defending the status-quo and providing counter-arguments that change will not work.


For others here is my perspective:

While India is a republic, the institutions which are supposed to ensure that it functions as a proper representative of the will of the people have been severely compromised. The checks and balances no longer work. The lack of a strong national vision and countless ways to fracture the society have resulted in a system where personal enrichment has replaced national progress as the primary objective of the ruling class.

This system has no incentive to change organically. Change will have to come via some external shock not fully sanctioned under the current polito-legal structure.

The question is how far does the system have to fall before the shock arrives. IMHO, the longer India waits the stronger the disruptive effect of the shock will be.

In some ways BRD movement is an ideal vehicle for providing that shock. It has mass appeal but is inherently passive in nature and based on a moral ground with which millions can relate to. The challenge lies in harnessing this angst in a constructive manner. BRD's objectives may lack the details and the sophistication of the bhadra-lok/civil-society/lokpal council, but they contain fundamental truism which can not be denied.

Unfortunately, there are very few who are willing to take up the awareness and channelize it into a more feasible course of action. The BJP does not know what to do since they are worried that the Baba might hijack their vote-bank. The Congress of course is in a panic mode, constantly invoking their Gods (RSS, RSS, RSS!) as they try to scare their vote banks into activism.

People like Somnath who profess to have a much better understanding of the system than the hoi-polloi of BR of course feel it is below their dignity to pick up the mantle of an uneducated, illiterate god-man who dreams of the day of INR-USD parity.

Indics are missing a golden opportunity, IMHO to break the shackles and rise.""

Great Post... This is the whole motive for people like AH and BRD

IMHO what Lokpal provides is a reactive solution for the general public under "What IF' scenarios which are currently beyond reach for the general public. Once we have a system in place for a reactive solution we should have a proactive system that actively prevents corruption.

Thanks.

[Arjun]

But Lokpal is but one of many constitutional functionaries...Going with the ceteris paribus principal that anyone appointed by "mainowadis" would be a "mainowadi" himself means attention should be given to the selection of everyone - RBI guv, CVC, judges of superior courts, Defence Chiefs, the whole lot.....Why should anti-corruption be the only space for ideological football or subversion?

RBI governor has only bank regulation and monetary authority. Does not provide a whole lot of space to perfect Maino-wadi or any other ideology for that matter. (Including fiscal control would have made it a somewhat more interesting position for the Mainowadis to subvert!)

Defence chiefs - again subverting these appointments would not really directly benefit any ideology / party.

CVC, Lokpal, Judges - these positions are meaty enough for subversion. INC tried the CVC route through PJ Thomas... As regards judiciary - I would have to look into the track record of the government on the matter. But the Lokpal route provides considerably more immediate benefits to any party looking for subversion than even the judiciary. And if the Lokpal has superior court judges as part of its ambit - the process of selection would need to be more rigorous than for a Supreme court judge.

[joshvajohn]

Indian businesses lose faith in government, survey shows
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le2058073/

There is a need for radical movement against Corruption besides laws. Indian government has to mobilise teaching at schools against corruption, training the government officials against corruption and make people within the government to declare that they do not take money from anyone in every offices of the government. Let every district start a local newspaper exposing the corrupt officials in public.

When the Saints Go Marching In
As corruption runs amok in India, a colorful cast of activists takes on the politicians.
http://www.newsweek.com/2011/06/12/acti ... india.html#

[Vashishtha]

Manish tiwary made a dumb statement today:

Who does the civil society think itself of??!! We are the 'elected' representatives and they can't force us to do things...

PURE BLOODY ARROGANCE!! Someone needs to remind this guy that they are PUBLIC SERVANTS and the 'civil society' is the whole public, not just team anna.. and if the nation asks them questions on integrity, they are BOUND to answer.....

[brihaspati]

Since we were asked and have gone down the nitpicking road on the draft: more issues [and perhaps pretty hilarious but real]

(1) As has already been pointed out, what about the very very "Constitutional" feature and demand for proper "representation" from the "repressed/backward/weaker/minority" sections of the society? Why should not the same arguments applied everywhere else to public/semi-public/gov-proper institutions be applicable to the Lokpal? Why will not be there a clause that requires 50% reservations from "judges/civilservants/civil society[whatever that means]" of "backward caste/SC/ST" origins? Why not a quota for "minorities"? Why not a quota for women "judges/civil servants/civil society", and within that a special quota for "Muslim women" say?

(2) the clever trick being employed here - is to bring up other nominated bodies and say, if you are not protesting them and their selection why do for the Lokpal! let me turn it around, the fact that we are raising the issue of selection for the Lokpal does not mean that we do not see the need for revision of the processes of selection for these other bodies too! Plenty to chew on even about the SC given the profound statements that appear to increasingly be supplied from that august body. On the other hand it is a typically political style of "blackmailing" to demand that "if you don't challenge" this other bodies/processes "that I am demanding that you must also challenge" then you cannot challenge "my pet body/process"!

Good pointer! Maybe we should first start looking into the processes that go into the "selection" of these other bodies first before adding another institution for the political parties to hoodwink the people and go after people they see as obstacles under the rather translucent nightgown of "legitimacy"!

(3) Someone posted a list of the NAC members. Can it be reposted on this thread? As has been repeatedly pointed out, the NAC represents what the INC thinks of as "civil society", and therefore with the refusal to spell out what defines a "civil society" - this stands as the next most probable model of people considered "civil".

(4) I still have no answer to my question as to why exactly the "civil service" origin portion of the Lokpal has to be less than the "judicial background" portion and further be capped, while the "judicial" luminaries or civil society apparently will have no caps.

(a) If is said that we need more of those who professionally "advocate" or "judge" because this body is a de facto and de jure "court" system, then why keep civil servants or "civil society" at all! If only the "judicial types" are supposed to be the most efficient dispenser of justice in this scenario, why dilute their efficiency by including the "non-professionals"?

if you say that these other "non-professionals" are needed to increase public confidence, then it implies that the public does not have much confidence in the judicial types in any case.

(b) if it is said, that we need more of the "judicial types" and a strictly lesser number and a cap on "civil servants" because we will have issue of conflicts of interest - then it implies that you intend to target only or more of the "civil service types" for scanning and lesser of the judges.

At the same time it is being piously and shall we say arrogantly proclaimed that the judicial types have "no conflict of interest" even if the judiciary are going to be equally under the scanner. Of course that can be supported by the intense dragging of feet and rather fierce defence of immunity from public scrutiny shown by the judiciary over the years?

(5) it is so amusing to see that we are asked to put our faiths in the unbiasedness of selections by an elected individual [hopefully the next PM gets properly elected in some Loksabha constituency] while the political parties and the politics that goes behind electing such a "supreme chooser" [the CJ is a selection ultimately by an elected authority] is bandied as unreliable due to possibility of corruption. Hence no discussion or consideration of allowing the Lokpal to be directly elected by vote of the people.

A direct election could still be considered from within a restricted-by-qualifications pool of candidates, and need not be open to all and sundry legal citizens as in the general elections [there too the candidates have restrictions on entry qualifications]. A body with such sweeping powers should be accountable to the people.

Having come to that, even if it was meant in sarcasm, I do think it would be a good idea to have some degree of election or direct people's choice for leaders of institutions like the SC - from within a panel of people having the required qualifications or professional background.

Actually self-styled "pro-democracy" people will oppose tooth and nail every such intrusion of the "people" directly in "choice". These are the institutions through which the ruling regimes of political grouping seek to ensure their control over the rashtryia machinery - and it is here that all principles of checks and balances are surreptitiously thrown out the window.

(6) This particular selected body is going to have an immunity rarely given in any constitutional democracy. They are going to be completely unaccountable for any actions they undertake even if they can be removed. It becomes an extended model of the higher judiciary and we already have one such group with extraordinary arbitrary powers and protection of such powers from accountability. Do we need more?

We already have had pretty good indications of the logical faculties now being shown by the judiciary - say as in the comment about "works of Gandhi and Gandhian" in relation to the Vinayak Sen case. We also have many other instances. Do we want more extraordinary powers and greater protection in exercising such powers from individuals of the background that is demanded to be dominating this body- which perhaps like those who think of themselves as "civil society" already arrogantly think that they are omniscient and fit to be default experts in all that they survey?

(7) the draft has plenty to show that it is being drafted by minds that even do not show the self-restraint shown in the Indian Constitution as to the practicability of criteria being posed. Realizing the impracticability of testing for such vague and emotional terms like "unimpeachable integrity" - such terms are avoided in qualifications in the Constitution. Qualifications have to be more concrete, something that is not dependent on subjective appraisal by humans and hence prone to fluctuation and contradictory opinions. The very fact that if a SC court judge has used such expressions - should make us all the more aware of the state of the "judicial mind" nowadays!

(8) I still have no answers to the questions of "checks and balances" for "corrupt/illegal" and fraudulent means of obtaining information, concocting of evidence, in the investigation and prosecution carried out under the Lokpal. None of the actions of the "Lokpal" can be challenged in regular courts of law. No answer to the use and release of possible sensitive and personal information - perhaps even obtained through wiretaps - in the public domain even if a case is closed without anything substantial being found by the Lokpal to prosecute or say prosecute but unable to prove guilt. No answer to disincentives for false allegations and penalties for those found concocting evidence to try and implicate a target [especially given that wiretaps would provide the greatest opportunity for fraudulent insertion of "evidence" from those in control of the machinery - people appear to have been practising well and long on CD's and narco-analysis].

(9) We are asked to have faith in the eventuality of everything turning out to be good with the "Lokpal" draft and the institution - given that India has "come out" of every such "dire" prediction of gloom. But then why is there no faith in an Indian future without the Lokpal bill - with the given institutions as they exist today? Should not eventually they will still manage to come out well and hearty for India if we wait patiently? Surely what seems so much like a catastrophe - in terms of corruption - will one day also pass away- with faith?

[SwamyG]

And the discussion has shifted from culpability of Sonia Gandhi and almost the entire cabinet being accused of one or the other massive scam/loot to inane topics.

If you can convince moderators in adding Sonia Gandhi to the title, it would be awesome But the dhaaga title will become like a Hanuman tail....growing, growing and growing.

[somnath]

RBI governor has only bank regulation and monetary authority. Does not provide a whole lot of space to perfect Maino-wadi or any other ideology for that matter. (Including fiscal control would have made it a somewhat more interesting position for the Mainowadis to subvert!

?? RBI guv doesnt provide for opportunities of MQ-ism?! why, we had a discussion on some other thread on how islamic monies can be routed through "islamisation" of the banking system through "islamic" banking - RBI is just the tool to do that! Any evidence? Fiscal policy, well, it already in the hands of the Finance Minister, presumably very high MQ - why dont you check which fiscal policies have subverted the system...And yes, we should therefore also propose "direct elections" for Finance minister, and all other "important" ministers..Defence chiefs! Perfect tool for spreading the new security threat paradigm of "hindu terror", no? Why not have a few Army chiefs who use their new found media-savviness to articulate the new security vision?

CVC, Lokpal, Judges - these positions are meaty enough for subversion. INC tried the CVC route through PJ Thomas

The PJ Thomas case is a perfect example of how the system, warts and all, rectifies itself...

To be honest, the question of "direct elections" isnt all that problematic lokoed at frpm the narow point of view of Lokpal...the problems are more macro...I am not sure, but I think it will be ultra vires the constitution itself - maybe a trained lawyer in the forum can opine...Secondly, the logistical challenge of conducting a "'general election" for every constitutional functionary, at various periodicities- we will end up having a mini general election every 6 months or more...

A committe comprising PM, Leader of Opposition, CJ of SC should reflect the electoral and judicial wills quite comprehesively...At least my views...

Anyway, in my second feedback to the committee,this is my POV on the construct and selection of the Lokpal..

1. 11 members (incl Chairman) is far too many..Its supposed to be an overseery body, Lokpals are not expected to go and do the dirty job of doing investigations and prosecutions...5 members, including the Chairman should be good enough..
2. The current provision of "at least 4 members from the judicial/legal profession" (out of 11) is pretty ok, given the largely legalistic nature of the mandate..In a 5 member scenario, it should be 2-3.
3. The remaining members, 2-3 in number, should have at least one representative with a background in police/central investigation services...
4. The suggestion on the composition of the selection committee was given in the earlier proposal. As for the "search committee", the suggested number and composition is largely fine, save one point...The 5 "civil society" members should not be nominated by the 5 other appointed members, but by the Chairman RS (VP, also the chairman of the selection committee) from the pool of nominated members of RS (who are basically "eminent civil society members")...
I have posted this on the website...

The entire "heartburn" over the inclusion of "civil society" in the draft is the result of non-reading of the provisions...The members of "civil society" are neither supposed to be members of the Lokpal, nor members of the selection committee..they are merely members of the search comittee - or a group of people who will provide a shortlist to the above to make the selections...

And yes, we have been seeing a whole series of red herrings..First, it was about judiciary not being covered (since then amended)...Now, some allusion to how the CJ is selected by an "elected authority" - well, no judge in SC is selected by the executive, in fact the govt has nearly no effective say - they are selected by a collegium of judges of the SC itself (has been since the early '90s)...Again, repeated allusions about some mythical reference to wiretaps made public....there is nothing of that sort in the draft...The Lokpal has been given the power under the Indian Telegraph Act to authorise taps...What is going to made public are " brief details of each such case, outcome and action taken or proposed to be taken in that case". No mention of wiretaps being made "public"...Talk of red herrings...

[Pranay]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 836805.cms

Anna Hazare-led civil society in a letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said that three of the five ministers in the panel were in favour of bringing the PM under the purview of Lokpal.

The civil society in its letter also said that taking the prime minister out of Lokpal purview will be a retrograde step.

Arvind Kejriwal said Manmohan Singh is one of the most honest Prime Ministers that the country has had. It is ironical that his own government should seek to take the PM out of the purview of Lokpal's investigations.

[Pranay]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 837152.cms

Anti-corruption activist Anna Hazare on Monday accused the office bearers of Congress and Union ministers of intentionally "defaming" the Lokpal movement and emerging NGO sector in the country.

"They (the government) making lot many allegations, including the so-called hidden support and political agenda designed by RSS and BJP, is a sheer humiliation of sentiments of the common Indians. They are trying to demoralise and confuse agitators fighting against corruption and this proves insensitivity of government," Hazare said.

Hazare also said that he had written a letter to Sonia Gandhi to draw her attention towards the "mudslinging" ahead of the next meeting of the Lokpal draft committee in Delhi.

While expressing his resolve to start hunger strike if the centre fails to enact the Lokpal Bill in stipulated time, Hazare said, "No one can stop the emerging social and political change in India. Now people have realised that they have to become agents of change and must not rely only on leaders and political parties."

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?724916

The Anna Hazare camp today wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to push for inclusion of his post in the ambit of Lokpal, arguing that a step otherwise would be "retrograde".

They also took on Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee for accusing the civil society of trying to undermine democracy and said his statement betrays a "distorted understanding of democracy and arrogance of power".

In order to take the Prime Minister out of the purview of the ombudsman, the government will need to amend the Constitution and grant him immunity similar to that enjoyed by the President, they said. They asked if the government is planning to do that and why.

The letter also mentioned that Mukherjee as chair of the Standing Committee on Lokpal in 2001 had himself recommended that Prime Minister should be covered under Lokpal and then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee had agreed to that.

Civil society activist Arvind Kejriwal told reporters that the Prime Minister himself had earlier said he will have no problem in being under Lokpal but his ministers are saying otherwise. "Is there a disconnect between them?" he asked.

Terming it "mysterious", Hazare and four other civil society members in the Lokpal panel said, "We are wondering what happened post March 2011, which prompted the government to suddenly take a U-turn on this issue. Till now the Prime Minister could be investigated by the CBI."

"Why should an honest Prime Minister like you (Manmohan Singh) be scared of being investigated by an independent Lokpal?" they said in the three-page letter.

Taking on Mukherjee for his comments against the civil society that it will become a circus if the committee proceedings are televised, Prashant Bhushan said by saying this whether the Finance Minister was hinting that the Parliament proceedings were a circus.

"The government says they can't make the proceedings public or have a live telecast of the joint committee meetings as it will become a circus. There is live telecast of Parliament proceedings. Does the Prime Minister and government think it is a circus in Parliament?" he said.

Asked why they were not pulling out the drafting committee as there was so much of mistrust, Kejriwal said they have to work with this. "At least, we can put on record our dissent note," he said.

On the allegations that Hazare was getting support of BJP and RSS for his agitation, Kejriwal termed it "unfortunate" on the part of a senior like Mukherjee to raise such allegations without evidence. "I can also raise such baseless allegations but I won't stoop to such levels," he said.

Kejriwal also took potshots at the Finance Minister for trying to "belittle" the civil society by terming them a crowd of 5,000-6,000, saying if it was just that number, why the government started talking to them.

[Sushupti]

Reveal Sonia's foreign tour details: CIC to PMO

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/reveal-sonia ... 37-64.html

[brihaspati]

Corruption has to be tackled on a much wider basis than merely treating it as a law and order problem. Part of the solution lies in longer term improvements in governance and making governance more and more independent of human judgment.

For example, more of e-governance, and make most rights and opportunities available to citizens automatically simply based on details available to centralized repositories of the essential aspects of a citizen's life [not amounting to undue intrusions into privacy - but simply those details necessary to decide by an automated system on benefits/rights/entitlements]. Automate decision-making as much as possible, for example more of e-auctions, where bidders register with required details [which can be verified later or against pre-existing databases] and it is the software that decides on the winning quote.

Second pare down and reduce the government bodies and the number of functionaries/institutions/personnel. Privatize, decentralize, and move more to local bodies, semi-autonomous and autonomous bodies.

Allow more of bargaining, negotiations mechanisms, outside of the regular courts systems that allows bands of flexibility around a central point determined by laws - between interested parties, without having to go through authorities.

The increase of higher-end consumption taxes need not provide enough revenue for the gov to play with, since the number base for consumption will be low compared to the entire society for some time. I think this is the reason there is already a lot of indirect taxation.

[Nesoj]

One member Nesoj claimed, like yourself, that Baba Ramdev had claimed a cure for AIDS. When challenged he came up with a satirical report from a spoof website as "proof".

2 links were quoted, of which one was a satire/spoof/humor/ site which has been selectively quoted by a few members. One should understand that the reason why RD was in a news article on that site, was because that RD's claim was too good to be true and they were treating his announcement as a crazy joke.

However, would you kindly go to these other sites and let me know if it is indeed a spoof site (OR) a site promoted / associated with the RD conglomerate

http://www.yogapranayama.com/
http://www.yogpranayam.com/

in case you feel they are associated, would you read the claims made therein and comment.

Further, in case you have access to the Sep, 2006 issue of 'Yog Sandesh (English)', would you kindly read what is mentioned in page 55

You could also google up news articles (circa Dec 2006) of the comments made by Union Health minister A Ramadoss, where Ramadoss rubbished the claims made by RD that yoga can cure AIDS, while at the same time appreciating RD's campaign in promoting yoga, and his campaign against junk food and tobacco.

[Sushupti]

However, would you kindly go to these other sites and let me know if it is indeed a spoof site (OR) a site promoted / associated with the RD conglomerate

http://www.yogapranayama.com/
http://www.yogpranayam.com/

in case you feel they are associated, would you read the claims made therein and comment.

Here is whois info on the above links

http://who.securepaynet.net/whois.aspx? ... g_id=whois

http://who.securepaynet.net/whois.aspx? ... g_id=whois


Administrative Contact:
india, india bevkoof.no.1@gmail.com
india india, INDIA india
Delhi, Delhi 110001
India
+91.1234567890

Technical Contact:
india, india bevkoof.no.1@gmail.com
india india, INDIA india
Delhi, Delhi 110001
India
+91.1234567890

[brihaspati]

THE CONSTITUTION OF INDIA (Part V.—The Union.—Art. 124.)

(2) Every Judge of the Supreme Court shall be appointed by the President by warrant under his hand and seal after consultation with such of the Judges of the Supreme Court and of the High Courts in the States as the President may deem necessary for the purpose and shall hold office until he attains the age of sixty-five years:
Provided that in the case of appointment of a Judge other than the Chief Justice, the Chief Justice of India shall always be consulted: Provided further that—
(a) a Judge may, by writing under his hand addressed to the President, resign his office;
(b) a Judge may be removed from his office in the manner provided in clause (4).
1[(2A) The age of a Judge of the Supreme Court shall be determined by such authority and in such manner as Parliament may by law provide.]

(3) A person shall not be qualified for appointment as a Judge of the Supreme Court unless he is a citizen of India and—
(a) has been for at least five years a Judge of a High Court or of two or more such Courts in succession; or
(b) has been for at least ten years an advocate of a High Court or of two or more such Courts in succession; or
(c) is, in the opinion of the President, a distinguished jurist.

The President is the ultimate authority to choose from among those "qualified" -[no mention of "unimpeachable integrity"] in "consultation" with a body of judiciary. The Constitution does not make it binding on the President [who acts on advice from the PM -a Constitutionally recognized "advice" in fact, with well known procedures to limit the degree of deviation permitted to the President] to accept any recommendation from the "judicial body".

[Nesoj]

(3) Someone posted a list of the NAC members. Can it be reposted on this thread? As has been repeatedly pointed out, the NAC represents what the INC thinks of as "civil society", and therefore with the refusal to spell out what defines a "civil society" - this stands as the next most probable model of people considered "civil".

The National Advisory Council of India is an advisory body set up to monitor the implementation of the UPA government's manifesto. I It is also informally called as UPA's Planning Commission for social agenda.
Basically the UPA's 'think tank' to implement UPA's agenda

Vision (http://nac.nic.in/member.htm)
The National Advisory Council (NAC) has been set up as an interface with Civil Society. The NAC would provide policy and legislative inputs to Government with special focus on social policy and the rights of the disadvantaged groups. The NAC would also give attention to the priorities stated in the address of the President of India to Parliament on 4 June, 2009. In addition, the NAC would review the flagship programmes of the Government and suggest measures to address any constraints in their implementation and delivery.

The NAC comprises distinguished professionals drawn from diverse fields of development activity who serve in their individual capacities. Through the NAC, the Government has access not only to their expertise and experience but also to a larger network of Research Organizations, NGOs and Social Action and Advocacy Groups.

Members, National Advisory Council
Smt. Sonia Gandhi (Chairperson)
Prof M. S. Swaminathan
Dr Ram Dayal Munda
Dr. Narendra Jadhav
Prof. Pramod Tandon
Dr. Jean Dreze
Ms.Aruna Roy
Shri Madhav Gadgil
Shri Naresh C. Saxena
Dr. A. K. Shiva Kumar
Shri Deep Joshi
Ms. Anu Aga
Ms. Farah Naqvi
Shri Harsh Mander
Ms Mirai Chatterjee

[chaanakya]

In Democratic Polity people suffer corruption because they choose to suffer it. Lokpal may not be the panacea . What happens if he is a corrupt fellow. In a society where 90% tolerate corrupt it is difficult to find untainted unimpeachable person.

[Sushupti]

June 4, Ramlila Maidan: Sonia Gandhi’s Night of Shame
Radha Rajan


What happened in the night of June 4 at Ramlila Maidan resembled a scene straight out of Macbeth. No Hindu king or ruler, not even Kamsa and Ravana, has gone so far as to use force of arms against defenseless, sleeping women and children. This is a familiar demoniac Abrahamic characteristic which the non-Christian and non-Muslim world has seen and experienced both in historical and contemporary times.
:
:

This duo wanted to wage what was in actual fact a war against Sonia Gandhi by hiding behind Baba Ramdev. Let there be no doubt that while the issue may be about bringing back money taken out of the country, Sonia Gandhi rightly perceived herself to be the end objective; and the chowki which she usurped from under poor Sitaram Kesri in 1998 and which had seemed invincible, was beginning to rock.

Our enemies have always had a vastly superior understanding of the war against Hindu India than Hindus have had about war or about Hinduism’s enemies.

The small group working from behind Baba Ramdev ought to have known that arraigned on the other side was not Sonia Gandhi the individual, but the Generic Church. The formidable Generic Church (American and European governments, American and European churches, the Vatican and World Council of Churches) stands behind Sonia Gandhi, equipped with all instruments of state, including weapons of war, and creatures of their making - pan-national and international structures and organizations (United Nations; International Court of Justice, The Hague; The International Criminal Court; Human Rights Watch; Amnesty International; Red Cross; American think-tanks) making Sonia Gandhi almost invincible.

But the group behind Baba Ramdev, in choosing not to seek organizational or any other back up support, thought they could get Baba Ramdev to mobilize people to Delhi in tens of thousands by hiding from public view and directing the movement insultingly from the shadows and over the cellular phone.

Sonia Gandhi’s handlers can front her in the war to conquer India without soiling their coattails and without entering the battlefield because Sonia Gandhi has the entire spittle-licking Congress as slave labour to do her bidding; and since 2004, every VVIP sitting in every single high democratic institution Rashtrapati Bhavan downwards, is personally beholden to Sonia Gandhi for his or her current high profile and privileged status. These individuals as price for their undeserved elevation have allowed Sonia Gandhi to tie strings to their fingers and toes, while they themselves are not allowed even an involuntary twitch of muscle or nerve.

Baba Ramdev, in contrast, had no one. Such is the total isolation of Baba Ramdev today that he was carrying on the ill-considered fast alone in his ashram in Haridwar [and had to be removed to hospital on Friday]. But Haridwar is not Delhi and Baba Ramdev is not a politician; he is a Hindu sanyasi. The government is no longer under pressure to placate or punish Baba Ramdev for daring to challenge Sonia Gandhi’s tentacles in Delhi; the government only has to ignore him. Simply put, the government no longer cares if Baba Ramdev fasts or feasts.

This battle was won by Sonia Gandhi only because the individuals who masterminded the movement assumed leadership roles which they did not deserve, and for which they had no competence. Round 1 to Sonia Gandhi, but the war is still far from over.

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisp ... px?id=1827

[somnath]

Unfortunately people unaware of developments in India make assertions in haste, only to google for half-baked support at leisure...

For appointment of SC judges, the SC had in 1993 changed the process of selection completely to a Collegium of (I think 10) SC judges...While all public servants incl judges serve at the pleasure of the President, under the Memorandum of Procedure laid down in the judgement, the President has no choice but to accept a recommendation by the collegium once the same has returned it back to her...

http://lawmin.nic.in/ncrwc/finalreport/v2b1-14.htm

It held at the same time that it was open to the executive to ask the Chief Justice of India and his two colleagues to reconsider the matter, if they have any objection to the name recommended but if, on such reconsideration, the Chief Justice of India and his two colleagues reiterated the recommendation, the executive was bound to make the appointment.

[brihaspati]

Red herrings and blue or green ones for that matter :

4. The   members   and   Chairperson   should   have   unimpeachable   integrity   and   should   have   demonstrated  their  resolve  to  fight  corruption  in  the  past.  

Q. What is the procedural mechanism to test "unimpeachable integrity" and "demonstrated resolve to fight corruption in the past"? Can anyone be blamed if he thinks that it was drafted by the draft-ers thinking of themselves as the most eligible?

5. A  selection  committee  consisting  of  the  following  shall  be  set  up:  
a. The  Prime  Minister  of  India  
b. Leader  of  Opposition  in  Lok  Sabha  
c. Two  youngest  judges  of  Supreme  Court  
d. Two  youngest  Chief  Justices  of  High  Courts.  
e. Comptroller  and  Auditor  General  of  India  
f. Chief  Election  Commissioner  
g. After   the   first   set   of   selection   process,   the   outgoing   members   and   Chairperson   of  
Lokpal.  
6. The  Vice  President  shall  act  as  the  Chairperson  of  the  selection  committee.

Except the leader of the Opposition, and the VP - all of the rest are ultimately "selected" from among "qualified" candidates by the PM. By the given electoral system, it is unlikely that the VP is a candidate much different from the political affiliation of the PM.

b. The  five  members  selected  above  shall  nominate  five  members  from  civil  society.  

So 50% of the search committee is from an undefined "civil society".

The   search   committee   shall   invite   recommendations   from   such   class   of people or   such   individuals  as  it  deems  fit. [the 50% civil society if properly chosen will ensure which proper class of people or individuals are invited to give recommendations] The  recommendations  should,  interalia, contain  the  following  details:  

a. Personal  details  of  the  candidate  being  recommended  
b. Details   of   any allegations   faced by   the   candidate under  any law or any allegations of moral  turpitude  in  the  past?  [a reco for a candidate expected to have details of such allegations? or are non-recos or anti-recos envisaged too?]
c. Details of  his  work  against corruption in  the  past with documentary  evidence. [given the later requirement of backgrounds of minimal composition - some of them will not have any opportunity because of their professional background to specifically "work against corruption" - either because such work would be part of his/her routine duty, or part of legal duty. This inclines more opportunity of "civil society" crusaders to populate the Lokpal. ]
d. Evidence from   his   past,   if   any,   to   show that   he   is a fiercely independent person   and cannot  be  influenced.   [ how do you check this? How do you ensure this from the at most two "civil servants" who are bound by duty to obey orders, and at least four "judicial types"? What will be judged to be "fiercely independent"? Who decides on such subjective criteria?]
e. Any  other  material  that  the search  committee  decides.  [well - what are they, results of an IB probe? how do they determine the authenticity and neutrality of such reports which they will use? the five civil society members - say of Teesta Seetalvad type - decides to provide hacked emails as proof?]

10. The  following  selection  process  shall  be  followed:  

a. The   list   of candidates received   above   along   with   their   details   received in   the format mentioned  above  shall  be  displayed  on  a  website.
b. Public  feedback  shall  be invited  on  these  names.  [but not necessarily taken into account]
c. The  search  committee  may  decide  to  use  any  means to  collect  more  information  about the  background  and  past  achievements  of  these candidates. [again the IB or hacked email type things become relevant]   
d. All   the   material obtained   so   far   about   the   candidates   shall   be   made available   to   each member   of   the   search   committee  in advance. The   members shall   make   their   own  assessment  of  each  candidate.  
e. The   search   committee   shall   meet   and discuss   the   material   so   received   about   each candidate.  The  selections  shall  be  made  preferably  through  consensus. [if consensus is not reached will it be by vote? not mentioned.]  Provided that   if   three   or   more   members   of   search   committee,   for   reasons   to   be recorded  in  writing,  object  to  the  selection  of  any  member,  he  shall  not  be selected. [all the civil society types can band together to block and hijack the selection, as long as the PM and VP is on their side. Even if the remaining members decide to object, they will ultimately face the choice of having the entire selection process paralyzed unless they give in to "civil society".]
f. Search  committee  shall  recommend  three  times  the  names  as  there  are vacancies  to  the   selection  committee. [again the civil society - with a proper nod from the PM and the VP - can thickly populate the list with its own preferred candidates so that at least a portion of their own nominees are guaranteed membership. The choice of the selectors has to be restricted from the list sent by the searchers]
 
g. Selection   committee   shall   select   such   number   of   candidates   as   there  are   vacancies   to   the  Prime  Minister.  The  selections  shall  be  made  preferably through  consensus.   Provided   that   if   three   or   more   members   of   selection committee,   for   reasons   to   be   recorded  in  writing,  object  to  the  selection  of any  member,  he  shall  not  be  selected. [what happens if the selection committee rejects most or all of the names?]