The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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SwamyG
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby SwamyG » 18 Jun 2011 02:27

harbans wrote:Swamy Ji, i am. Swiss bank accounts we all know are not new for example. Why did they happen? To run elections. Where do parties get monies to fight elections for example? Black money stashed. Made by extending privileges to Companies for business benefits. Why does that happen? Because the system does not allow transparent financing of political parties in public view.

One of the questions that you should have asked is "Why are they running for elections?". Except a handful, again giving the benefit of doubt, most of them do not run for altruistic reasons. Money and Power are two major factors. These two, themselves are not bad, one needs money and power in politics to wield some clout to get jobs done. But how crores do they have to steal?

You agree singular approach is not the way to go, so it means you agree that reforming (bettering ourselves) is also one of the ways. This is where spiritual leaders can inspire people to be a better person. People like Baba Ramdev, supposedly, perform this role. While politicians make laws and policies, we need Swamis, Priests and Maulanas to inspire people to bring out the best in them. Agree :mrgreen: ?

Artha and Kama both have to be earned under Dharma. When one earns both without the protection of dharma, it becomes unsustainable and people will notice and raise. That is what is happening.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby SwamyG » 18 Jun 2011 02:42

Prasad wrote:Without a visible and real rod, people will always take the easy route to the destination without giving a fu(k about others.

It is partially true onlee. An individual will not do what you say, if s/he believes s/he will fall in her or his own eyes. I believe society can be engineered, where an individual will develop self-loathing when the individual steals rs 100 or spits on the road. Call it Sanskriti or whatnot, such a refinement is possible. Don't lose hope.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Prasad » 18 Jun 2011 02:47

SwamyG wrote:
Prasad wrote:Without a visible and real rod, people will always take the easy route to the destination without giving a fu(k about others.

It is partially true onlee. An individual will not do what you say, if s/he believes s/he will fall in her or his own eyes. I believe society can be engineered, where an individual will develop self-loathing when the individual steals rs 100 or spits on the road. Call it Sanskriti or whatnot, such a refinement is possible. Don't lose hope.


Oh it isn't unobtanium at all ! Seeing how things are in massaland, I do know we're entirely capable of being just as good, be it civic responsibility or otherwise. But lack of civic sense is just a pointer to a deeper malaise. That we don't care. That is why the danda is required, heavily now and slowly easing off as things better to the iron hand in a velvet glove setting.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 18 Jun 2011 02:52

Prasad wrote:
Prasad wrote:Without a visible and real rod, people will always take the easy route to the destination without giving a fu(k about others.


I agree we need a Danda.

But...

How exactly do you think even a toothpick will be wielded, leave aside a Danda in our current system.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Prem » 18 Jun 2011 03:35

sanjeevpunj wrote:Can we have a list of non-corrupt Netas since 1947. This would give a good idea in perspective.I wonder how many will fill the list. Let us exclude Gandhi from the list, he died after acheiving the goal of Independence.His place is unique in our history.
At the top of this list I place Lal Bahadur Shastri who was unceremoniously murdered in Tashkent. He was one really uncorrupted soul. I am struggling to think of more names.Down the lane we can add Dr Man Mohan Singh.In-between, I wonder who all came and went.


Guzari lal NANDA. He told his family that he dont exist for them as his life is dedicated to Desh. Check out where was he born!

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby BSR Murthy » 18 Jun 2011 04:31

Gulzarilal Nanda indeed was one of the most selfless leaders of India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulzarilal_Nanda

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Pranay » 18 Jun 2011 04:46

deepan gill wrote:
Was Sardarji wrong?


Yes the Sardar Ji was wrong. Being corrupt is not simply accepting ill-gotten wealth, but its also allowing, turning a blind eye to corrupt practices, that is wrong as well. Manmohan Singh may not have black money hidden away or not taken a bribe, but he is as much guilty as all others for allowing this. His party was voted into power by the people, and his party elected him to be the PM. Thus, he was elected by the people's mandate, he should operate above party lines.

Jan Lokpal Bill is asking for PM to be under it, technically that is un-constitutional. But why is it being demanded? Because, the system is their to protect the govt machinery, from a simple govt official to a MP to cabinet ministers etc.

The office and the chair occupied by a Prime Minister of India needs to be occupied by individuals who are in sync with the nation and its aspirations. Too bad our PMs are product of our society.


Could you elaborate on the part of your comment that i have highlighted.

Why is it "technically un-constitutional"??

Why should any citizen of any democratic country, governed by a set of laws, be beyond the pale of the law that governs the rest of the citizenry?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby thayilv » 18 Jun 2011 04:53

Rajendra Prasad - the first president of the Republic of India. He was involved in the Somnath reconstruction movement in Gujarat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_nationalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_Prasad

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Prem » 18 Jun 2011 05:30

BSR Murthy wrote:Gulzarilal Nanda indeed was one of the most selfless leaders of India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulzarilal_Nanda


He was brother of my paternal GrandP.
8)

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 18 Jun 2011 06:27

Its surprising (and amusing) that finally, all that could be thought of is,

1. Indias are somehow inherently corrupt (or have become corrupt) for whatever reasons.
2. Our parliamentary democracy does not work...
3. We need "re-education", in line with the Chinese, Singaporeans, and (well, this takes the cake) Pakistanis! :evil:

SwamyG wrote:Let us get begin from these lines:
1) Why do you think A.Raja and Suresh Kalmadi stole/cheated so much money?
2) Why do you think politicians and business people have hidden away money outside the shores of India?


1. Because they were put in charge of structures that lent themselves to excessive discretionary powers...I can only reiterate the examples I gave earlier...Vilasrao Deshmukh as Minister of Heavy Industry - didnt have any cement or steel quota scam that were so symptomatic of industry miinsters in the bad old days...Venal, corrupt babus, on temporary deputation to EC conduct the most scrupulously monitored electoral process in the world, universally acknoledged to be a global exemplar...

Do both these characters undergo spiritual transformation of their selves before takign on the respective duties?

2. Not sure about politicians, but businessmen historically have sent money outside India historically because tax rates were unconscionably high (97% at one time)...Plus, investment opportunities outside provided better returns than a sclerotic Indian economy...

Today, rates arent the issue, and arguably a lot fo "black" money is simply circulated back in the Indian economy...But black money is still created in various sectors, compliance is a pain, while non-compliance opportunities are glaring in the tax codes...

For politicians, the big reform, ie, electoral funding, IMO should have the following tenets:

1. Remove all caps on spending - it will immediately take the surreptitiousness away, and make the info public...
2. Let EC have the powers to cancel the nomination of any candidate who is found to have spent any money outside what he has declared...

the entire argument of "culture, sanskriti" etc are hot air - Indians are not less honest than they were 40 years back, and Indians are not less honest than the average Chinese or Signaporean, certainly the average Pakistani :evil:

The argument is pretty similar to the "hindu rate of growth" axiom propounded by Raj Krishna - it was as if the sclerotic growth was a cultural thing with Indians...We found out in the '90s that there was nothing cultural, it was a matter of "policy"..Good policies engendered high growth..similarly, the right policy engenders a corruption-free system...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2011 06:49

Sorry if already posted:

Chicago: India loses a whopping USD 16 billion a year due to corruption, IPS officer-turned social activist Kiran Bedi has said.

Speaking at an event here organised by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs, she said, "out of every Rs 100 meant for infrastructure development, only Rs 16 is used and Rs 84 is lost."

She said that if India is free of corruption, it could become the most developed country in the world and all its debt would go away.

"I would like to see Indians in America collectively raising a voice because it is our future," said Bedi, who is associated with social activist Anna Hazare's anti-corruption campiagn.

Speaking about the Lokpal Bill, Bedi said corruption has increased because there was no system to check it and and there was no system in place to handle the negative aspects of positive growth.

"It is only in the last two months thanks to the Supreme Court that key players and politicians went to jail for the first time and have not been bailed out till now," Bedi said.

She also spoke at the India Against Corruption event held at the Gayatri Shaktipeeth.

"Scams have increased over the years and the number of recorded scams have also increased," she said, adding that records show that there are no commensurate punishment for such scams.

Bedi said that she needed the support of Non-Resident Indians to give the movement an additional momentum.

"We can also try to weed out corruption if we allocate even 0.5 per cent of budget for anti-corruption," Bedi added.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 18 Jun 2011 06:56

The "civil society" version of the Lokpal bill is up on the net, ver 2.2...Is the govt version there somewhere? I cant find it..

In that context, this interview of Salman Khurshid (he is in the panel) is instructive..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/by-au ... s/805429/0

What the govt has agreed on..
We have agreed that the Lokpal would not need sanction from higher authorities to investigate an official. We have agreed that there will be an investigating branch, reporting only to the Lokpal. We have agreed that the funding for the Lokpal would be independent of the Finance Ministry and budget. It would be charged to the Consolidated Fund of India. We have agreed to make the appointment of Lokpal a more broadbased and robust process


I would say that this is great movement forward...A lot of the provisions of ver 2.2 of Jan Lokpal Bill have been agreed to!

The big sticking point now I guess is only about the coverage of PM and Judiciary...at least on the former, I think many political parties are in favour...It should get support in the Parliament...

I only wish the AH team doesnt lose the plot in any misplaced dellusions of grandeur now....They have done a great job, they should keep at it...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Sushupti » 18 Jun 2011 07:10

Image

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby sanjeevpunj » 18 Jun 2011 08:40

nikkap wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:. I am struggling to think of more names.Down the lane we can add Dr Man Mohan Singh.In-between, I wonder who all came and went.


dr manmohan singh is a corrupt person i don't know from where this notion comes that he is clean.


You are so badly mistaken.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 18 Jun 2011 08:42

Chanced across this incredible study done by a couple of post grad students...Substantiates the point on how good policy goes a long way in mitigating the impact of corruption..

Here, these students did an empirical study on how RTI helps slum dwellers get ration cards...they compared it against other "alternatives", ie, "bribes", and "NGO help"...They found that using RTI hastens the delivery of the service almost as much as the easiest route, bribes...
http://www.accountabilityindia.in/sites ... sakhin.pdf

Some more evidence of how good policy makes for reliable anti corruption...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby sanjeevpunj » 18 Jun 2011 08:44

Prem wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:Can we have a list of non-corrupt Netas since 1947. This would give a good idea in perspective.I wonder how many will fill the list. Let us exclude Gandhi from the list, he died after acheiving the goal of Independence.His place is unique in our history.
At the top of this list I place Lal Bahadur Shastri who was unceremoniously murdered in Tashkent. He was one really uncorrupted soul. I am struggling to think of more names.Down the lane we can add Dr Man Mohan Singh.In-between, I wonder who all came and went.


Guzari lal NANDA. He told his family that he dont exist for them as his life is dedicated to Desh. Check out where was he born!


So we have a list of non-corrupt leaders who are not alive today-

Lal Bahadur Shastri - 2 October 1904 - 11 January 1966 (Second Prime Minister, died while on official visit to Tashkent, by an evil plot, his wife claimed poisoning while govt. sources said "heart attack", after having signed the Tashkent Declaration.)
Gulzari Lal Nanda -4 July 1898 - 15 January 1998 (Interim Prime Minister two times, for thirteen days each time, once after Nehru's death and once immeditately after LBS's death) a graveyard shift duty PM!
Last edited by sanjeevpunj on 18 Jun 2011 08:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby sanjeevpunj » 18 Jun 2011 08:54

somnath wrote:Chanced across this incredible study done by a couple of post grad students...Substantiates the point on how good policy goes a long way in mitigating the impact of corruption..

Here, these students did an empirical study on how RTI helps slum dwellers get ration cards...they compared it against other "alternatives", ie, "bribes", and "NGO help"...They found that using RTI hastens the delivery of the service almost as much as the easiest route, bribes...
http://www.accountabilityindia.in/sites ... sakhin.pdf

Some more evidence of how good policy makes for reliable anti corruption...


Very appropriate article, makes intelligent reading.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Prem » 18 Jun 2011 09:00

sanjeevpunj wrote:
Prem wrote:[
So we have a list of non-corrupt leaders who are not alive today-
Lal Bahadur Shastri - 2 October 1904 - 11 January 1966 (Second Prime Minister, died while on official visit to Tashkent, by an evil plot, his wife claimed poisoning while govt. sources said "heart attack", after having signed the Tashkent Declaration.)
Gulzari Lal Nanda -4 July 1898 - 15 January 1998 (Interim Prime Minister two times, for thirteen days each time, once after Nehru's death and once immeditately after LBS's death) a graveyard shift duty PM!


The 3rd will be BRD, he just has not assumed the mantle yet.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby sanjeevpunj » 18 Jun 2011 09:10

BRD has made his entry into Politics eventually, with that incident. Its only a matter of time, when he either launches a party of his own, or joins an existing one, but where is all this party making going to lead to? We already have a confused aam aadmi. Add another party and the confusion only increases. There should be permanent mergers between these faction parties, till we have a foolproof two party system: CORRUPT PARTY and ANTI-CORRUPTION PARTY. Both can then rule turn by turn till one eventually is finished (when all its netas will be in jail).

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Raghavendra » 18 Jun 2011 09:21

Journalist’s loyalty pays off

A journalist proved to be more loyal than the king the day AICC general secretary Janardan Dwivedi was nearly assaulted by a shoe-wielding man. The mob that beat Sunil Kumar to a pulp was led by Bilal Sabzwari, the correspondent of a western UP newspaper. Sabzwari ended up breaking his spectacles in his fight to save the honour of journalism. His loyalty has, however, paid off. Digvijay Singh has promised him a pair of spectacles. Motilal Vora had an hour-long meeting with him. Ahmad Patel called him up to thank him and if the buzz is to be believed even the Prime Minister's Office called him. However, no one thanked Ashok Kaushik, the AICC media coordinator who first restrained Sunil Kumar. A Congress office bearer was heard saying that Kaushik was a paid employee and it was his duty to do his job. Digvijay Singh is also believed to have joined the mob to slap Sunil Kumar a couple of times.

source : sunday-guardian

Footage of the attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79OGrk-rZW4



Inspite of visual evidence of attempt to murder the journalist, delhi police have not filed an FIR and arrested digivijay singh and these goons, this is congress party justice

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Anantha » 18 Jun 2011 09:25

sanjeevpunj wrote:
somnath wrote:Chanced across this incredible study done by a couple of post grad students...Substantiates the point on how good policy goes a long way in mitigating the impact of corruption..

Here, these students did an empirical study on how RTI helps slum dwellers get ration cards...they compared it against other "alternatives", ie, "bribes", and "NGO help"...They found that using RTI hastens the delivery of the service almost as much as the easiest route, bribes...
http://www.accountabilityindia.in/sites ... sakhin.pdf

Some more evidence of how good policy makes for reliable anti corruption...


Very appropriate article, makes intelligent reading.


The amount of corruption at the customs has decreased over the years as I have seen as CCTV cameras are posted all over the place. I have heard in Mumbai airport the Customs has a room inside where they take the in coming passengers for bribes even now.So more vigilance and civil activism will reduce corruption.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby SwamyG » 18 Jun 2011 10:22

So they were not bad to begin with, it is just structures and policies, eh? It is like the poor rapist is not at fault, it was because the girl was dressed inappropriately and the situation was such that yada yada...

I am not sure why you insist on creating straw men? Is it because it is easier to known them down? Why are you comparing Indians 40years ago or with other people? Did I? Oh because I use the word culture or sanskriti. Is it so?

Wow, you do think humans are machines. Give them a system and they will walk it the way you desire. You make it sound as if people arguing against what you are saying are against reform of the "system" and bringing out policies. It is the penchant for policies that is so similar to the Central planning system of USSR that is eerily wrong.
Last edited by SwamyG on 18 Jun 2011 17:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nikkap » 18 Jun 2011 11:25

nikkap wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:.

dr manmohan singh is a corrupt person i don't know from where this notion comes that he is clean.


You are so badly mistaken.


Do you think otherwise have you read the post in support of my argument.?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Dhiman » 18 Jun 2011 11:52

harbans wrote:Dhiman Ji, if you are questioning me you also read then what i have written. I am saying exactly that. I have posted that the lack of reform in the system is attracting criminal minded people into politics. Specific solutions to make it less attractive to the corrupt have been given. Please go through the posts at least.


Harbans ji, I don't have any particular qualms against your views. Also, I don't think anyone here is arguing against domestic reforms nor is anyone here arguing against policy reform. In fact those are the things that we are all looking for.

However, the issue becomes contentious when we consider that:
1) It is the Kangress party itself that is the source of corruption for much of India's independent history and for creating an environment that breeds corruption.
2), I also agree with you that when it comes to corruption BJP is not far behind either (and have stated so in a number of earlier posts).
3) Many including myself believe that the entire political system is rotten (again this should not come as a surprise to you) and that Kangress and BJP have struck a deal of mutual corruption for both their survival.

Given this, the real point of contention (at least in my opinion) is whether this government and this political system has the desire to and the willingness to reform itself. My answer to that is a solid NO. Without sustained public pressure the corrupt political system will never reform itself.

Regarding the 10% growth. Again, everybody welcomes it, but as many posters have pointed out that growth didn't start as a result of some bright spark emerging in the GoI in the 1989-91 timeframe, but as a result of IMF forcing economic reforms upon GoI which was under immense financial pressure at that point.

So based on this, my simple question to you is whether you agree that strong, sustained, public pressure (going up to the extent of toppling this government) is needed to force the government to act?

If you think that getting angry and coming on the streets will help, tell me how it does. Anger will not solve problems IMHO.


I won't question your assessment here besides stating that Anger is well justified here and those who are angry have every right to feel so. But again, this is really a question of whether the government will spontaneously reform itself or whether sustained public pressure is needed to force the government and political system to reform.

My apologies if I have missed any of your past posts, but I do try to read most posts in this discussion.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Arjun » 18 Jun 2011 12:06

Dhiman wrote:I won't question your assessment here besides stating that Anger is well justified here and those who are angry have every right to feel so. But again, this is really a question of whether the government will spontaneously reform itself or whether sustained public pressure is needed to force the government and political system to reform.

Good post, Dhiman ji.

All the evidence points to the fact that it is only public anger and outrage that has led to any movement whatsoever on corruption on the part of the government - whether one is looking for short term solutions or longer-term reforms.

The bottomline is that things don't move in India unless you kick butt and keep kicking harder.
Corruption is just the start - where is the outrage regarding dynasticism in Indian politics, or blatant subversion attempts by the INC to subvert India's liberal ideals through the discriminatory communal violence bill?

First step is for galvanizing public opinion on many of these matters - and given the somnolent Indian government attitude, outrage is an essential component of getting this done. Second step is to look at possible solutions - but that can only happen when enough folks are involved and enough butt has been kicked for folks to see that a problem exists. There is no way in India to move to the second stage without going through the first.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Sushupti » 18 Jun 2011 12:13

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby joshvajohn » 18 Jun 2011 13:34

We need to change the vocabularies about Black Money

All money overseas cannot be merely called Black Money. Those amounts that wants to escape the taxing system of India can be called Black Money. This black money is only for taxing.

But those money that are taken as bribe or illegal means such as taking a donation for doing something good from the government should be called illegal money. They are not only unaccountable but also are taken at the cost of many people's lives. Some of these big amounts are taken in the process of arms sale and for allowing people to use Indian land and so on.
This should certainly called illegal money. Many politicians and parties have this money.

Money that is stolen from India which is particularly selling of 2g or many other things from India should called stolen money. Many industries and agencies bought the lands for a very cheap prices while people got the money directly to those who are incharge - many government officials have accounts of this kind. This is called stolen money or theft money.

When we bring black money it is only taxing while other money the whole amount should come back to Indian government unless invested on medical education or green investment or solar energy or social developmental charity work with 90% excemption from taxing.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 18 Jun 2011 17:49

Let us just pretend for a moment - just for the sake of argument, that it is bad policies that are primary causes of corruption and implementing new and better policies will reduce it. Fine.

So, who is responsible for these bad policies in the first place ? Who originated these bad polices ? Who perpetuates these bad policies ? Why are these bad policies not being fixed, except when a rare accident occurs such as in case of Modi or under IMF pressure or under bankruptcy pressure ?

It seems to me that somehow by emphasizing that bad policies are responsible for corruption (which in itself is a totally false proposition in my opinion, but again, granting that momentarily for the sake of argument), the posters here seem to shift the blame of bad policies from the successive governments since independence to someone else. How is this someone else, other than the governments who are responsible for bad policies ?

Ah...wait...wait.....I get it. It is Baba Ramdev and it is Anna Hazare and it is the Bhushans and it is anti-Congress party posters on BRF and it is me, Nataraja or wait.........now I really get it..........it is the GREMLINS.......Gawd........I was so dumb not to get it so far.......I need re-education. It is Ramdev, Bhushans, posters of BRF and Nataraja who are coming in the way of implementing the policy reforms, the magic elixir of a combination of 10% growth along with cameras everywhere which will cure corruption.

On a serious note.......we should really ask ourselves. Who stands in the way of policy reforms right now ?

AND THEN THE BIG QUESTION. Why are they not being pursued ?

I will tell you, WHY policy reform is not being pursued.

Two reasons.

1) Implementing good policies, while in my view will not make a major dent in corruption, still is a good thing in and off of itself. They benefit the people in many other ways than just reducing corruption. It is very desirable to have good policies and policy reform. But who wants to benefit the country ? Who has the time to put priority on that ? When there is so much money to be made by scamming people and robbing the government, why would any minister or politician take the time and lead the fight for policy reforms. Even if a rare politician, or two try to take the lead in policy reforms, the structure and the intertia in our governments has reached such levels that that rare politician will have a fight of his life to just implement something positive and even when implemented the reforms will be thwarted by other people up and down the chain of command in the government, not to mention to be thwarted by bribery. THIS ROTTEN STRUCTURE, THIS INERTIA, THIS LACK OF CARING, THIS BRIBERY ARE ALL COLLECTIVELY CALLED CORRUPTION.

2) While I strongly believe that just implementing good policies will not do away with corruption and this is so obvious, that I seriously question the motives of people who are pushing this line of thinking, I do believe, independently of these posters on BRF with questionable motives, that good polices will make some difference around the periphery. If "good policy" argument is not used as a diversionary tactic or diversionary argument from the main issue, we all must recognize that true, honest policy reform or good policies will make some difference in corruption (while not by itself fundamentally making a dent in it). Given that good policies will make some difference in corruption, the government and powers that be will be highly motivated to stay away from instituting policy reforms. THE GOVERNMENT AND POWERS THAT BE DO NOT WANT TO REDUCE CORRUPTION. WHO WOULD WANT TO PUT A HOLE IN THEIR OWN POCKET? WHAT IS IN IT FOR THEM ? Therefore, the current set of politicians and bureaucrats who are assured power anyway, in rotation if nothing else, will not be the vehicle for policy reform either.

The bottom line is this. No, matter how you look at it, any measures to reduce corruption, policy or otherwise cannot be undertaken by any governments or institutions in the current setup or system we have in India. There are strong incentives for the current dispensation to continue to stay corrupt and NO incentives for them to become less corrupt, either by fundamentally altering the structure itself, as I and some other posters would like to see, or by instituting policy reforms as others here would like to see. ANd I believe everyone knows that. My irritation and frustration with posters like Harbans and Somnath is that even they know in their heart of hearts, that any improvement within the current system and structure is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE. But yet they continue to argue for staying within the system. Not only that, they then go as far as to fault people like Ramdev and Hazare for putting undue pressure on the government, which they are doing WELL WITHIN OUR CURRENT SYSTEM AND WELL WITHIN OUR CURRENT CONSTITUTION. Ramdev and Hazare and company are being faulted for exercising their constitutional rights, why ? Because they are not politicians or policy wonks, what do they know ? They are being faulted becuase they are not part of the same corrupt coterie who are totally disincentivized to begin with to make any fundamental changes to corruption in India.

So when I hear, well work within the system and even then, work gently, dont display anger, let us all work together to come up with good policies, the government of India and all the political parties are merely waiting for BRF to come up with some great policy gems and they would welcome it, rush to embrace them...........what I am really hearing them say is......."I am heavily invested in the current system......if it is corrupt, so be it.......if I feel any threat that the current system may change and create uncertainties or even problems for me, I will react violently.......I will use every ploy, every excuse in the book to attack you.........I will use the Indian Constitution, I will use Democracy.......I will use anything as a butcher knife to slaughter you.........how dare you dont buy into my reassurances of gentle, gradual change and things happen slowly in India, after all we are a developing nation, we have only been independent a short time......DO ANYTHING BUT DONT IMPOSE CHANGE ON ME, OR ELSE>>>>>>>I WILL.........."

It is all hogwash. That is merely a deliberate ploy, an excuse, a diversionary tactic to continue status quo and effect no change whatsoever.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nikkap » 18 Jun 2011 18:43

nataraja wrote:which they are doing WELL WITHIN OUR CURRENT SYSTEM AND WELL WITHIN OUR CURRENT CONSTITUTION. Ramdev and Hazare and company are being faulted for exercising their constitutional rights, why ? Because they are not politicians or policy wonks, what do they know ? They are being faulted becuase they are not part of the same corrupt coterie who are totally disincentivized to begin with to make any fundamental changes to corruption in India.

So when I hear, well work within the system


nataraja ji this is the root cause of all the problems we are not aware of our rights & regarding harbans ji what can i expect from a person who thinks that our forefathers fought for democratic system.

i feel pity for everyone who uses words like democracy,citizen & then demand rights.i have read your comments & i agree with most of the points you put across but please stop using words like democracy,citizen & civil rights without understanding their meanings & it is my request to everyone else in this forum.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Pranay » 18 Jun 2011 19:42

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 903846.cms

Government on Saturday made clear its opposition to bringing the post of Prime Minister under the purview of Lokpal till he demits office and ruled out opening the conduct of MPs inside Parliament as also the higher judiciary to scrutiny of the proposed ombudsman.

"Within the government, we feel prima facie, the Prime Minister should not be covered (under the Lokpal). But at the same time we want to make sure that if he demits office, he should not be exonerated from prosecution," said HRD minister Sibal who is part of the joint drafting committee on Lokpal.

However, he said, the five ministers in the joint committee were willing to be persuaded to bring the Prime Minister under the ambit of the anti-corruption legislation if the civil society side gives a "compelling argument".

Contending that it was not the question of "an individual, Manmohan Singh" but "an institution", he said on Karan Thapar's Devil's Advocate programme, "Which Prime Minister in office anywhere in the world has been prosecuted in the world? Please tell me, please give me an example."

The government is also "clear" that the conduct of MPs inside Parliament should not come under the Lokpal, he said.

"What happens inside the House, the speaker and the House should deal with it...and not the Lokpal. We can have a mechanism within the House where sanction can be given for investigation once the Ethics Committee concludes that there is a criminal offence," he argued.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby UBanerjee » 18 Jun 2011 20:25

In connection with the black money scandals:

98 kgs gold, Rs 12 crore cash found in Sathya Sai Baba's chamber

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby abhischekcc » 18 Jun 2011 20:45

Rs 38 Crore of jewellery and cash - is this a joke or what?

That man dealt in billions, where is all THAT money?

Why are we being shown this chicken shit?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 18 Jun 2011 20:52

abhischekcc wrote:Rs 38 Crore of jewellery and cash - is this a joke or what?

That man dealt in billions, where is all THAT money?

Why are we being shown this chicken shit?

This is only what was found literally under his pillow...The real deal is not kept, cannot be kept, in that "format"...You see thats why/how ideas like banning curency notes are termed bunkum :wink:

Natarja-ji, do you have any ideas barring moral education classes that teach the Chinese/Singaporean/Paki way?

Because maybe you didnt notice, India is, and remains a Parliamentary democracy...And again, maybe it slipped you completely that the engagement of people with the electoral process has deepened massively in the last 10-15 years - just look at the voter turnout %s - its topping 80% in some state elections these days...So maybe, just maybe, the fact is that most Indians dont really prefer the Paki/Chinese/Singaporean way? :twisted:

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 18 Jun 2011 21:09

somnath wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:Rs 38 Crore of jewellery and cash - is this a joke or what?

That man dealt in billions, where is all THAT money?

Why are we being shown this chicken shit?

This is only what was found literally under his pillow...The real deal is not kept, cannot be kept, in that "format"...You see thats why/how ideas like banning curency notes are termed bunkum :wink:

Natarja-ji, do you have any ideas barring moral education classes that teach the Chinese/Singaporean/Paki way?

Because maybe you didnt notice, India is, and remains a Parliamentary democracy...And again, maybe it slipped you completely that the engagement of people with the electoral process has deepened massively in the last 10-15 years - just look at the voter turnout %s - its topping 80% in some state elections these days...So maybe, just maybe, the fact is that most Indians dont really prefer the Paki/Chinese/Singaporean way? :twisted:


And look where we are and where China and Singapore are.

Nobody is talking about blindly following any foreign model. But dont be blindly chauvanistic about our own model either. No, I dont have any ideas about fixing anything within the current system that India has. This system is rotten and has to be done away with. There is absolutely no hope for Indians to even survive, leave aside excelling within the current system, 10% growth notwithstanding. Participation in voting doesnt equal having a decent life. Even the rich in India live like pigs. Forget about the rest of us.

I suggest, we first get to the Chinese level and then try to better them. One cannot be in an inferior position to someone, as is the case between India and China and then heap contempt on the entity that is better placed and there is no dispute that China is better placed than us in almost all areas. Only a child can get away with displaying contempt for someone better placed than you.

Maybe it slips you completely that Democracy is only a means, not an end, which works some places and doesnt work in some places. History is replete with examples of failed democracies, even recent history. Just look at South America and parts of Africa. Then look at us, India. A totally failed democracy.

What is the end then ? Here it is in the descending order of priorities.

1. Food and basics for most, if not all
2. Security, internal and external for all of our citizens
3. Right to have our national territorial integrity and our private property secured
4. Economic opportunties equally for all individuals and National Industrial might
5. Swift and equal justice for all

Then

6. Freedom of Speech
7. Voting rights

China and Singapore are prime examples of countries that by and large provide 1 through 5 above and India only provides for 5 and 6 and that too is arguable. Our own history, Indian history has had long periods where 1 through 5 were adequately provided for. Maurya reign, Gupta reign are just a couple of examples. We didnt have democracy then.

Let us get our priorities straight here and not buy into this Western propoganda about Democracy is the ultimate and Democracy for all. It has undoubtedly worked for them, but we are not obligated to persist with a system that we have tried for 60 years and which has thoroughly failed us.

I know in your case, Som, you are not buying into any Western propoganda, the current system just suits you well, economically, emotionally and temperamentally. :D
Last edited by nataraja on 18 Jun 2011 21:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby somnath » 18 Jun 2011 21:32

nataraja wrote:No, I dont have any ideas about fixing anything within the current system that India has. This system is rotten and has to be done away with

Hmm, all I can say is that by available evidence, most Indians dont agree with you.....they do have ideas, lots of them, and are trying to get them incorporated in the current system, either by working the system (like what a couple of 1000 IIX alumni did when MMJ tried his shenanigans), or by kicking a bit of butt before working the system again (like what AH and his team are doing)...

About democracy, well, as "argumentative Indians", it remains the best alternative available!


nataraja wrote:Even the rich in India live like pigs. Forget about the rest of us.

Again, obviously the large pool of NRIs reverse migrating back to India havent heard so!

But really, if you dont have any ideas, what is left to do in an internet forum, which is primarily for "ideas swapping"? :wink:

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 18 Jun 2011 21:41

You dont get it, do you, Som.

You by yourself are not the forum. Let others also decide after reading my posts whether I have ideas or not.

I have seen others call you an idiot here on this forum or something to that effect. Will you take it to the bank ?

Maybe, we should start another thread entitled "Do Indians have a good quality of life in India" and see what people think. Obviously you and I disagree. I think the quality of life in India is terrible across all classes in India.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby brihaspati » 18 Jun 2011 23:39

One of the major problems with certain lines of argumentation here is that the "arguer" models all other humans as himself.

For example, if NRI's are "reverse migrating" back to India, it must be solely because material conditions in India have become comparable to the material conditions they supposedly enjoy in their place of professional/economic domicile. This is the logical condition of any mind that is obsessed with and limited to - financial/material "prosperity" onlee as the sole basis of his life, and therefore of all other human minds. There can be no place for non-material factors in RTI decisions. In a recent conference presentation, Narayana Murthy's example was cited in connection to a lot of the topics being discussed here. Apparently people there were not very much aware of certain peculiar statements Murthy ji has made from time to time, including the one on his statement about his motivation to return to India [after he claimed some formative experiences that contributed to his later philosophy] to "create wealth". Murthy definitely was not seeing India as already "materially" up to the level "outside" he was familiar with - for then he would not feel the need to "create" it back at home. I will not go into the ideological components of Murthy as traceable in various statements or observations by others, which gives some significant clues.

Same goes for dismissing SwamyG's statements on "sanskriti/culture" in the most arrogantly dismissive vitriol of "hot air". This again is natural for any mind that has immense contempt for "sanskriti/culture" as having any role in "economics" or as social forces impacting economics, or even economic practice. Forget that people do study and produce studies on some "hot air" called "business ethics", and not all of which are whether contracts are properly adhered to in dollar terms. Perhaps not all culture - but only that connected to "Hindu" shaded Indian "culture", drawing indignant reaction because use of the word "sanskriti" raised the shadow of Hindutva connection?

It is amusing to see the clever sleight of hand by which finally "Hindu rate of growth" becomes merely but at least "sclerotic" phraseology which should not be used to paint "all Indians" as anti-growth or growth-incapable. See, suddenly in one smooth sly stroke, "Hindu" becomes equal equal to "India" - acknowledging that the phrase was indeed maliciously created and continued to be used by the very acknowledg-ers themselves - to abuse all Indians, and that in their minds India is "Hindu" onlee. Are these not the voices which also vehemently deny the "Hinduness" of India, or any special status/role of "Hindu" in modern Indian life? But then "sanskriti" is firmly a word with "Hindu" roots and connotation - so the hatred comes out alright!

Frankly, dear friends, forget all this "hot air" of "growth" - which by the Reaganomics/Thatcheromics trickle down theory is supposed to benefit and raise the living standards of all and sundry - at some future "golden period", and let us ask the essential question. How do you propose to put a social halo around "greed" as honourable because it drives consumption and sells more products while at the same time say that "greed" is bad and socially damaging because it leads to "corruption"? If accumulation is a supreme objective and the end-all and be-all of life, which it must be if you divorce "sanskriti" from living, how can you argue to put a limit or cap on that supreme "objective"?

The only reason it is done by essentially criminal minds is by arguing that maximizing one's profit "hurts" maximizing similar other's profits. Therefore if you accept a "sanskriti-less" all-consuming pursuit of profit and accumulation maximization as the fundamental determinant of living, and claim that "corruption" of "big amounts" is "bad" - you are actually trying to assure a share of the big-pie for yourself as a member of a small pool of sharks feeling most threatened by other similar sharks, and there is actually no underlying concern for the people/society/ethics/values. People and their poverty or relative deprivation is simply being exploited.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby nataraja » 19 Jun 2011 00:58

Hear Hear, Brihispati Sb.

You are absolutely correct. Increase in corruption is directly proportional to increase in materialism.

Corruption cannot be cured without a cultural devaluation of materialism. "Cultural devaluation", not mandated legal devaluation.

Agree with you on all that.

However, here is something you may not agree with me.

Although, nowhere near the levels of present day, Indians have been corrupt for centuries. Even in days before consumerism and materialism. It is this corruption that caused us to be fragmented and this fragmentation then invited all and sundry to invade us. This should by no means be construed as "Indians are inherently corrupt or by nature corrupt". It is possible to be corrupt for a long time, without being "inherently or naturally corrupt". This long standing corruption by an overwhelming majority of Indians has over the centuries not only done a great injustice to the large minority of Indians that have not been corrupt, but in the long run hurt all Indians - corrupt and non corrupt.

We now have arrived at a critical juncture in our history. We either get our act together and exorcise corruption from within us, by a combination of factors, establishing proper cultural values being one of the main factors, or we should be prepared to perish. The good news is, that since we are not "inherently or naturally corrupt", if we make a herculean effort, and not be bound by the current dispensation, current system, so called "democracy" , so called "secularism" and even the current Constitution, I believe we can win.

We can overcome. And, we shall overcome.

Because the forces of evil will not be able to stop us now. The corrupt who are using Democracy, secularism and Constitution of India to wield the big stick against the honest have been exposed. They will not be able to stop us now. They and all the Corrupt will be swept away like grains of sand by a massive tidal wave of virtue and the good and then we will all be purified. Then we can start from a clean slate and create a new India, a clean India, where Hindus are not second class citizens, where we treat each other with respect and we create a community based on our culture, history and values and where we have the strength to protect ourselves.

Let the word go out, to all inside India and outside, to the whole world, that no one should mistake India as being the same as "secularism", "democracy" or even "the Indian Constitution". India and the idea of India existed well before the Greeks thought up Democracy, long before the word "secularism" came into existence, long before the Indian Constitution came into being. India and the idea of India will not only exist but thrive, post "secularism", post "democracy" and post "the Indian Constitution". The only pre-requisite is that we get rid of this cancer of corruption from within us.

And to the "worshippers at the altar of democracy, secularism and Indian constitution", here is what I say. In the Indian context, even the worst possible outcome of the worst possible non democratic dispensation that the Indians can create, will not be worse than what we have had since 1947 and continue to have, as we speak.

But why will anyone assume the worst. We will do better. We will do much better. Our millions of Gods are on our side now. The one God himself is on our side this time. The time has come. Nothing will stop Indians from starting to create a moral and just society now. The day of reckoning is fast approaching. Very soon..........Very soon

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby rsingh » 19 Jun 2011 02:23

UBanerjee wrote:In connection with the black money scandals:

98 kgs gold, Rs 12 crore cash found in Sathya Sai Baba's chamber


All of the Babas are same. I dare to tell this on BR dhaga.........I was labeled paji,murakh and retard. Sai Baba was given God status. Same will be with other Babas.........but problem is that nobody want to be first to say in public for the fear of being ridiculed. I am what I am because of my deeds. I have refused free invitation to SS Ravishankar ( normal ticket starts from 200Euros at Hilton). This is all nonsense. Hitler was right...........it is easy to brainwash a crowed .

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Postby Karna_A » 19 Jun 2011 02:52

rsingh wrote:All of the Babas are same. I dare to tell this on BR dhaga.........I was labeled paji,murakh and retard. Sai Baba was given God status. Same will be with other Babas.........but problem is that nobody want to be first to say in public for the fear of being ridiculed. I am what I am because of my deeds. I have refused free invitation to SS Ravishankar ( normal ticket starts from 200Euros at Hilton). This is all nonsense. Hitler was right...........it is easy to brainwash a crowed .


rsingh, No I won't say that you are a retard, but I sure want to question you for giving such a generic statement.

Have you ever done meditation and Yoga asanas?

Your statement in like a person standing in Chemistry lab and giving statements how an experiment cannot be performed in Physics lab without ever entering Physics lab. The first question to you would be 'Shouldn't you at least try enter the Physics lab and then after trying few things there say if experiments work or not?

Please try meditation and Yoga asanas for at least a year. If you don't like Babas, try under a Western teacher. If it does not work, then give such statements.

Most babas teach variations on patanjali's Yoga sutras.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali

Fortune magazine does not publish a list of top 100 babas unlike top 100 richest person. In reality, greatest babas may be living alone in a cave in Himalayas since they do not need fame or money.

Just because a lot of Babas are fraud, does not mean all of them are also fraud in same way just because some teachers of physics are incompetent, that does not make MIT/IIT Professors also incompetent.

Please try meditation and Yoga asanas for at least a year, discover your own self and who knows you may become the greatest baba ever!


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