The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Jun 2011 02:59

RSingh let me recollect I guess word used was 'lahori logic' and let me tell you , you have only vindicated the charge. Everyone knows there is crores stashed in handi in Tirumala Tirupati in form of gold/jewels, so what gives ? Whether Sai baba is god or not is one's personal perorgative you are no one to question that your claims of having invitation to some nook and corner notwithstading (not sure how is it relevant to thread though). Baba did not hold any public office nor did he have access to the public exchequer whatever he and his trust gets is from the devotees and I do not find anything wrong in that as long as it's been declared. You are only bringing your personal bias and prejudice to this thread.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jun 2011 02:59

Karna_A wrote:
Please try meditation and Yoga asanas for at least a year, discover your own self and who knows you may become the greatest baba ever!

Hari Om!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Jun 2011 05:56

Acharya wrote:
Karna_A wrote:
, discover your own self and who knows you may become the greatest baba ever!
Hari Om!

Tat Sat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7YP_6Gqiz4

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jun 2011 10:59

Salman Khurshid's interveiw with IE in full - gives the perspective of how much this has progressed..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/at-th ... h/805656/0

To me, a lot has been achieved..

let it comprise the PM, Leader of the Opposition, Chief Justice of India, nominated chief justices of high courts. We said let there be a search committee for Lokpal. (must say, this is somewhat like what I had suggested in my "inputs to the committe"

We have agreed that there will be no sanction required for investigations. We have agreed that there will be an investigation branch entirely under them

what isnt clear is whether this will be a new setup or they will bring CBI under the Lokpal...

We have agreed that their expenses will be charged to the Consolidated Fund of India.

The police under you will have police powers, you cannot walk into people’s homes, you cannot tap their telephones, you cannot physically call people and put them under interrogation, but an investigation officer can and that investigation officer will be answerable to you. They agreed

The points on disagreement..

On the Prime Minister, we have agreed that once a PM demits office, you can investigate his conduct. We have agreed that ministers can be examined, MPs could be examined, provided they are referred

They should stick to this (the point of PM being in the ambit), there is wider political views in favour - Parliament will bring in inside the purview..

We said Lokpal would address corruption in higher places. They said no, the chaprasi who works for the government must be subject to Lokpal. We agreed but said he will be subject to Lokpal and not to the Lokpal’s delegated officer. They said then you are trying to kill Lokpal by giving him too many cases

Something I had written in my feedback too...Dont know whats the rationale, besides cussedness - there is no point having a Lokpal getting into investigating every pandu taking a hafta...

There seems to be a pretty good forward movement, barring on the issue of PM, which is sure to get included given the widespread support...I agree with Salman Khurshid on the point on the judiciary - there is a Judicial Accountability Bill that addresses the whole issue - from appointments to corruption..

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 19 Jun 2011 17:12

nikkap wrote: Do you think otherwise have you read the post in support of my argument.?

No I would like to know what you offer in support of your argument. Please shed some light why you consider Dr Man Mohan Singh as corrupt and what substatial proofs exist.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 19 Jun 2011 17:28

SwamyG wrote:Wow, you do think humans are machines. Give them a system and they will walk it the way you desire. You make it sound as if people arguing against what you are saying are against reform of the "system" and bringing out policies. It is the penchant for policies that is so similar to the Central planning system of USSR that is eerily wrong.

No sir, humans are rational, emotional, irrational, greedy and all of it at the same time...Which is precisely why Soviet systems with their emphasis on a certain type of educated "rationality" came up a cropper...As much as the whole legion of econmic axioms (incl the famous "efficient market" theories) basing themselves on "ratioanlity" of human behaviour...

Which is why policies need to evolve and ensure that institutional checks and balances are in place, and individual discretions are minimised..

Do a bit of clear thinking on what was wrong on telecom - simply, too much discretion left with the political executive - hence Sukh Ram led to Pramod Mahajan, who in turn led to Raja.....

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 19 Jun 2011 17:45

The government is trying to push the idea that the PM must be out of the ambit of the Lokpal Bill, but after he quits office and if any allegations exist, he can be investigated. This is to say that while he is in office he can protect the other corrupt ministers ( and he surely will, because his existence in power depends on them), he can ensure their corruption cases are concealed,evidence destroyed and so on. This keeps the inner circle of power comprising of the ministers who are only answerable to the PM. very safe.

A clever loophole created to ensure they continue to call the shots, whether the PM is in power or out of power.This should be contested by anyone wanting the Lokpal Bill to survive.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 19 Jun 2011 18:49

somnath wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Wow, you do think humans are machines. Give them a system and they will walk it the way you desire. You make it sound as if people arguing against what you are saying are against reform of the "system" and bringing out policies. It is the penchant for policies that is so similar to the Central planning system of USSR that is eerily wrong.
No sir, humans are rational, emotional, irrational, greedy and all of it at the same time...Which is precisely why Soviet systems with their emphasis on a certain type of educated "rationality" came up a cropper...As much as the whole legion of econmic axioms (incl the famous "efficient market" theories) basing themselves on "ratioanlity" of human behaviour...

Which is why policies need to evolve and ensure that institutional checks and balances are in place, and individual discretions are minimised..

Do a bit of clear thinking on what was wrong on telecom - simply, too much discretion left with the political executive - hence Sukh Ram led to Pramod Mahajan, who in turn led to Raja.....

I do not subscribe to full blown former-USSR style or USA style economics. Since they have both caused problems, I am looking at our own economic model that comes under Purusharthas, ie. earning Artha under the jurispudence of Dharma. Dharma is that which sustains the society.

So with dharma being the underlying foundation, I am all for policies and regulations to provide checks and balances. But you are dismissing the implementation details & refusing to accept we need national character, vision, pride and other cultural (yes sanskritic) elements that will act as a foundation. You rest you beliefs ONLY with law makers and politicians; and conclude other leaders be it spiritual or any other non-political leaders have no role to play in the betterment of society, law making and people's lives is astounding, myopic and dangerous.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 19 Jun 2011 19:01

rsingh wrote:
UBanerjee wrote:In connection with the black money scandals:

98 kgs gold, Rs 12 crore cash found in Sathya Sai Baba's chamber
All of the Babas are same. I dare to tell this on BR dhaga.........I was labeled paji,murakh and retard. Sai Baba was given God status. Same will be with other Babas.........but problem is that nobody want to be first to say in public for the fear of being ridiculed. I am what I am because of my deeds. I have refused free invitation to SS Ravishankar ( normal ticket starts from 200Euros at Hilton). This is all nonsense. Hitler was right...........it is easy to brainwash a crowed .

Have you at least read about Sudarshan Kriya (of Sri Sri). Have you seen scientific articles/brain mapping studies, pictures of the brain of a person who has completed the Sudarshan Kriya vs a normal person's brain. Have you read about Dalai Lama's representative yoga master who was studied using modern tech at the Univ. of Colorado.
Do these before saying "It is all non sense".

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2011 20:05

an another note a van carrying 35L of cash of sai baba's ex-home to bangalore was detained by AP Police and case registered.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 19 Jun 2011 20:37

Lok pal will not work.

People want the easy way out. A magic pill. They love to think that all will become well by fixing the other guy, in this case the politicians and the bureaucrats.

Not only will Lok Pal not fix the politicians and the bureaucrats, it will further distract people from the real solutions.

Why will Lok Pal not work ? Because it is demanding nothing from the citizens. It is not demanding that the citizens take a look at themselves and their actions and inside their own soul. It is not creating any citizen's committees having oversight capabilities over governmental actions. It continues to keep the citizens out of governence. We are all adults and we should have the maturity to realize that there are no "one shot" magic pills. There are no easy solutions. It is all hard work, and blood and sweat and tears, day in and day out, month in and month out, year in and year out, century in and century out......And not just hard work, also smart work and honest work......

Without the citizens doing the hard work and changing themselves, yes, even re-educating themselves, nothing is going to work. It will all stay the same.

So, what is the real solution ? Well, for starters, and mind you, this is only for starters, we can restore the rule of law in this country. We can restore independence to the police from politicians and start enforcing the law. We can reform our legal system by using some creative thinking and ensure that a criminal case and all its appeals is concluded within the time limit of one year and a civil case with all its appeals be concluded within a time limit of two years. Will an independent police and speedy trial judges not make any mistakes ? They sure will, but it will be an enormous improvement over what we have right now. Right now, we have no police enforcement and no justice in courts whatsoever.

What will restoring law and order do ? It will make each of us, each citizen more responsible for our actions. It will re-introduce the concept of right and wrong among our citizens and in our country. Right now, it is the law of the jungle and police and the judicial system heavily favors the guy who wields the proverbial "stick" or "green paper".

And what about all these people getting excited about Lok Pal........on this forum and outside.........well, how naive can you be ?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 19 Jun 2011 20:43

While sane people logically discuss pros and cons of the Lokpal Bill, look what this Congress worker is upto. Feeding a photo of Rahul Gandhi with cake! Such devotion and Rahul Bhakti! These are the people who by their devotion to the high and mighty eventually become important low profile ministers who do all the dirty work for their bosses.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 19 Jun 2011 21:53

[

Have you at least read about Sudarshan Kriya (of Sri Sri). Have you seen scientific articles/brain mapping studies, pictures of the brain of a person who has completed the Sudarshan Kriya vs a normal person's brain. Have you read about Dalai Lama's representative yoga master who was studied using modern tech at the Univ. of Colorado.
Do these before saying "It is all non sense".

Yes did. Do not get carried away by this brain scan tamasha. There are many variables which are completly ignored. Belive me I know more about these people. Some chelas from my extended family are following him up to Berlin In July. Anyway no more from me on this. I want to rest my case. Time will tell.
BTW .........where is the Babaji who was king maker When Narsimah Rao was Prime Minister? Acting Prime Minister of India used to touch that Baba's feet. I forgot the name....

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 20 Jun 2011 01:08

rsingh wrote:[
Have you at least read about Sudarshan Kriya (of Sri Sri). Have you seen scientific articles/brain mapping studies, pictures of the brain of a person who has completed the Sudarshan Kriya vs a normal person's brain. Have you read about Dalai Lama's representative yoga master who was studied using modern tech at the Univ. of Colorado.
Do these before saying "It is all non sense".
Yes did. Do not get carried away by this brain scan tamasha. There are many variables which are completly ignored. Belive me I know more about these people. Some chelas from my extended family are following him up to Berlin In July. Anyway no more from me on this. I want to rest my case. Time will tell.
BTW .........where is the Babaji who was king maker When Narsimah Rao was Prime Minister? Acting Prime Minister of India used to touch that Baba's feet. I forgot the name....

Since you consider brain scan and effects of Sudarshan kriya as Tamasha there is nothing else to argue with you. By the way I have a Ph.D, and working in new medicines research.
Regarding Berlin Tamasha or other Baba's, I am not interested in other activities of Babas. My question is on benefits of Yoga and Kriya. If you think no benefits exist, I have nothing more to tell you, as you are challenging concepts proved using procedures established that the world scientific community accepts now.

disha · Post by **disha** » 20 Jun 2011 01:27

sanjeevpunj wrote:

Is that our own somnathji and harbansji?

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 20 Jun 2011 01:40

^^
Nothing wrong with science Sir. I believe in science as I my self have my Master in Biochemistry. Started Ph.D but left in favour of quick bucks (MBA and my own business). That scan thing is not as simple as you think......consider following
*How the sample candidates were selected
*Did they knew for what they are being scaned? Because if you are concious of the purpose you scan will be different
*When was scan done? ie how long after the so called "sessions"
*Sex of candidates. Female tend to be more emotional
*Age of candidates. Elders tend to be more devotional in deeds.
* What is average lifestyle of candidates.......hectic working guy,retired satisfied (pota poti always first in class no tension) retired tortured soul etyadi.
*Social ranking........guy who earn daily wages is less likely to be satisfied by diet of good words only.
There are more. I am avid readers of such studies and I always try to find what were the methods used. Most of time you can get desired result by manipulation methods and conditions. I am sure you knew this already. But I always try to think out of box and I am not impressed by such studies which are carried out to give credibility to certain view.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 Jun 2011 04:46

Hard Hitting questions posed by Rajinder Puri:

http://thestatesman.net/index.php?optio ... &Itemid=53

This is not the first time that the UPA chairperson has quietly gone abroad in a manner best described as being furtive. Why the secrecy? Why create the illusion in the public mind that she is in India when she is not, asks rajinder puri

On Monday, Tamil Nadu chief minister Miss Jayalalithaa visited Delhi. She met her Delhi counterpart Mrs Sheila Dikshit. India’s biggest TV channel blared: “Will Jaya also meet Sonia?” Was the channel unprofessionally ignorant or was it colluding with the exercise to hide the furtive movements of Mrs Sonia Gandhi? Earlier on the same day, there was a statement issued by Mrs Gandhi deploring the murder of a prominent journalist in Mumbai. Was all this being done to create the illusion in the public mind that Mrs Gandhi was in India while she was not? This is not the first time that Mrs Gandhi has silently gone abroad in a manner best described as being furtive. Why the secrecy? What is the purpose of Mrs Gandhi’s undisclosed visits abroad?
An RTI applicant, Mr Ramesh Verma, had sought from the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) details of the foreign visits of the Chairperson of the National Advisory Council (NAC) and Congress president Mrs Sonia Gandhi. The Central Information Commission (CIC) forwarded the application to the PMO. “It seems the Parliamentary Affairs Ministry had informed that the Central government had incurred no expenditure on the foreign visits Sonia Gandhi during the last 10 years,” CIC commissioner Mr Satyananda Mishra has stated. The application to the PMO was received on 26 February, 2010, transferred to the external affairs ministry on 16 March, 2010 and then forwarded to the Parliamentary Affairs Ministry on 26 March, 2010. However, it was not known by the Cabinet secretariat whether the RTI applicant had been provided with the information that was sought. The CIC commissioner criticised the PMO for its casual approach. The PMO did not obtain the information from the appropriate ministry after the query was specifically directed to it.
Congress leaders are frothing at the mouth demanding total transparency from members of civil society. Probes have been launched against some of them. Should not the government display equal transparency pertaining to India’s most powerful politician who is the chairperson of the ruling UPA coalition as well as the chairperson of the government’s NAC? They need to answer the following questions:
Did Mrs Gandhi travel abroad on an airline or by a private jet? If the latter, whose jet was it?
What was the purpose of the foreign visit made by the Chairperson of the NAC and the UPA?
What is the itinerary of the NAC Chairperson? Which countries and cities did she, or will she, visit?
And while they are at it, our worthy Congress leaders may as well also address these ancient and perennial questions:
Why does not the government refute the allegation made by a former member of the Soviet government’s official KGB Commission, confirmed by the official spokesman of the Russian government addressing the media, that the KGB had been donating funds to Mrs. Sonia Gandhi’s family, including her mother, since 1971? Why does the government not demand an apology from the author of the allegation and failing its receipt launch a defamation case against the author and the Russian government?
Why do the government and the Congress party not explain the purpose of the meeting between accused money launderer Hasan Ali and the political secretary of the Congress president, Mr Ahmed Patel, that was investigated and confirmed by Maharashtra police?
The public awaits from Congress leaders Mr Pranab Mukherjee, Mr Digvijay Singh, Mr Kapil Sibal, Mr Chidambaram and the rest, answers to these questions. Transparency, like charity, should begin at home.

The writer is a veteran journalist
and cartoonist

Also last night Aaj Tak, 24 and few other channels, while giving news of Sonia's answering letter to Anna were saying "as she was out of Delhi". Media seems to 100% under Conparty's thumb.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 20 Jun 2011 05:58

Is that our own somnathji and harbansji?

In bad taste.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 20 Jun 2011 06:04

rsingh wrote:^^
There are more. I am avid readers of such studies and I always try to find what were the methods used.

OT Alert.
If possible, we should have a thread on this. If people are interested in sharing details that is

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jun 2011 06:47

SwamyG wrote:So with dharma being the underlying foundation, I am all for policies and regulations to provide checks and balances. But you are dismissing the implementation details & refusing to accept we need national character, vision, pride and other cultural (yes sanskritic) elements that will act as a foundation.

Well, I dont know what you mean by "purushartha, dharma" et al - when were these concepts in their full "bloom"? The Gupta age? Or the Maurya? Unfortunately we live in the 21st century, most people dont identify with the Guptas or Mauryas...Its a bit like saying that the Italians should take lessons on rejuvenation by referring back to the Roman Age...

In absence of concrete actioanable ideas, these are, I am sorry to say, just words...In the same vein as

nataraja wrote:So, what is the real solution ? Well, for starters, and mind you, this is only for starters, we can restore the rule of law in this country

Restore "rule of law"....As motherhood as it gets..How do you do that? Apparently by making the police "independent"...How exactly do you do that? No clue...But of course, the Lokpal "will not work", even though one of the fundamental tenets of the Bill is to have an investigation arm that does not report to the Execustive, in other words, "independent", or the very objective that was being propounded to restore the "rule of law"...

Cliches are pretty well known...hard, implemetable ideas need more than cliches...And it is the latter, not the former, that make a difference...

BTW,

disha wrote:Is that our own somnathji and harbansji?

Dont know of Harbans, but the photo does look somehwat familiar - the moustache and sideburns are a bit "unfamiliar" though, and also seems a couple of feet chopped off in height

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 07:17

Why not make the entire police force independent ? So, if someone robs me of all my belongings, the non-independent police force should investigate my case, and when a minister takes money, an independent agency should investigate it. Why ?

The way to make police independent is the same way that Lok Pal will make its investigative arm independent.

Through an act of Parliament and various state Legislative assemblies, as per the current system.

Of course, since under the current system, this act will never pass parliament or any legislative assembly, Somnath can keep accusing me of coming up with "motherhood" statements. Of course, for Som, heads he wins, tails-the other guy loses. Classic 8th grade tactic.

Me thinks, Som, you only make two type of statements. "Congresshood statements" or sometimes simply "hood" statements.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 20 Jun 2011 07:48

rsingh wrote:^^
Nothing wrong with science Sir. I believe in science as I my self have my Master in Biochemistry. Started Ph.D but left in favour of quick bucks (MBA and my own business). That scan thing is not as simple as you think......consider following
*How the sample candidates were selected
*Did they knew for what they are being scaned? Because if you are concious of the purpose you scan will be different
*When was scan done? ie how long after the so called "sessions"
*Sex of candidates. Female tend to be more emotional
*Age of candidates. Elders tend to be more devotional in deeds.
* What is average lifestyle of candidates.......hectic working guy,retired satisfied (pota poti always first in class no tension) retired tortured soul etyadi.
*Social ranking........guy who earn daily wages is less likely to be satisfied by diet of good words only.
There are more. I am avid readers of such studies and I always try to find what were the methods used. Most of time you can get desired result by manipulation methods and conditions. I am sure you knew this already. But I always try to think out of box and I am not impressed by such studies which are carried out to give credibility to certain view.

It looks like you want to believe these studies were conducted by Sri Ravi Shankar's team. No these studies were done by independent organisations.
The study on Dalai Lama's man was conducted by Univ of Colorado and the studies were published after peer reviews.
Another Stanford Univ. Hospital study found that Indian meditative music has profound effect on Cardiovascular surgery patients.
I do not have a problem if you do not like the money minded babas (all included), but I find it odd that you have problem with meditative Yoga and Sudarshan Kriya. I have not found one Scientifically sound study debunking yoga and meditation.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jun 2011 07:52

nataraja wrote:Why not make the entire police force independent ? So, if someone robs me of all my belongings, the non-independent police force should investigate my case, and when a minister takes money, an independent agency should investigate it. Why ?

"robbery" and "corruption" are very different concepts...

But on the larger point, "why not make the entire police force independent" - in an idea world, we should...Tere is one individual, Prakash Singh (ex DGP, BSF) has made it his life's mission to impart a degree of independence to the police...Has even won a Supreme Court order in his favour, asking the govt to start the process...

You can see the basic objectives and chronology here..
http://www.humanrightsinitiative.org/pr ... reform.pdf

Reality? Despite a SC order, things have moved at less than glacial pace..Whats the issue? Simple..Police (and law and order) is a state subject...Getting 29 states to amend their statutes has been well nigh impossible..Unfortunately, this fight has to be fought state-by-state, not at one place but many dozens...If you have ideas on how to hasten it, please enumerate...

Till then, should there be no forward movement? Lokpal is an attempt at that..If you take care of the headline news corruption issues, message automatically goes down to all levels..Both "internal shuddhikaran" as well as statutes start happening then

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 07:52

Sushupti wrote:
Is that our own somnathji and harbansji?
In bad taste.

I agree.

Som and Harbans have much better taste. They would not be serving a cheap, roadside shanty made cake to Respected Rahul ji. They would be offering the very sumptuous and finger licking Tiramisu flown specially(or freshly arrived as part of carry on baggage of the highly revered Soniaji) from Risorante Pompi in Rome !

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 08:02

somnath wrote:
nataraja wrote:Why not make the entire police force independent ? So, if someone robs me of all my belongings, the non-independent police force should investigate my case, and when a minister takes money, an independent agency should investigate it. Why ?
"robbery" and "corruption" are very different concepts...

But on the larger point, "why not make the entire police force independent" - in an idea world, we should...Tere is one individual, Prakash Singh (ex DGP, BSF) has made it his life's mission to impart a degree of independence to the police...Has even won a Supreme Court order in his favour, asking the govt to start the process...

You can see the basic objectives and chronology here..
http://www.humanrightsinitiative.org/pr ... reform.pdf

Reality? Despite a SC order, things have moved at less than glacial pace..Whats the issue? Simple..Police (and law and order) is a state subject...Getting 29 states to amend their statutes has been well nigh impossible..Unfortunately, this fight has to be fought state-by-state, not at one place but many dozens...If you have ideas on how to hasten it, please enumerate...

Till then, should there be no forward movement? Lokpal is an attempt at that..If you take care of the headline news corruption issues, message automatically goes down to all levels..Both "internal shuddhikaran" as well as statutes start happening then

It is difficult to get 29 States to do it. True. But your answer is ever so slightly misleading and deliberately so, based on my reading of your posts. The way you have written it suggests that each of the 29 states have to pass making police independent in order for it to be operational even in one state. In actuality, you know as well as I do, one state can pass it and then it will be operational in that state. Then the next and the next and so on. The reason you were deliberately misleading was because you dont want to highlight the fact that in our current system, not even one of the 29 states has passed it, despite many court decisions and many social activists, not to mention ex-policemen working on it.

Because if the truth becomes clear, then you would be proving my point, wouldnt you ? That nothing can happen within this rotten system. The entire set of clowns, ranging from Respected Sonia ji, Manniya Advaniji and chubby baby Rahulji have to be thrown out with the bath water, not to mention the Indian Constitution.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jun 2011 08:18

nataraja wrote:The reason you were deliberately misleading was because you dont want to highlight the fact that in our current system, not even one of the 29 states has passed it, despite many court decisions and many social activists, not to mention ex-policemen working on it

One, I wasnt meaning anything of this sort..Two, unfortunately there is no one such "it"...If you look at that document, there is a series of recos in there - many of them can be done through executive orders, some of which will need change in the statute books...And no, it is incorrect to say that nothing has been "passed"...Why dont you go through the document fully? It gives the status update in granular form..

A number of states have set up the State Security Commissoin to appoint DGPs...Lots of states have diluted "transfers" authorities to the police administration chain - you dont usually hear of en masse change of Inspectors and SPs with every change of govt anymore, it used to be de rigeur even 10 years back...

Some changes have fiscal implications, whcih many states dont have a whole lot of leeway on...

Of course, the biggest daddy is lack of political will........

But developments like Lokpal (or RTI) are breakthrough, disruptive stuff - they create a new paradigm, open up the system for complete scrutiny and effectively change the system...A bit more realistic than cries of "our constitution rubbish, our politicans crooked - nothing can happen, we need Paki/Chinese/Singaporean systems".....

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 08:29

somnath wrote:
nataraja wrote:The reason you were deliberately misleading was because you dont want to highlight the fact that in our current system, not even one of the 29 states has passed it, despite many court decisions and many social activists, not to mention ex-policemen working on it
One, I wasnt meaning anything of this sort..Two, unfortunately there is no one such "it"...If you look at that document, there is a series of recos in there - many of them can be done through executive orders, some of which will need change in the statute books...And no, it is incorrect to say that nothing has been "passed"...Why dont you go through the document fully? It gives the status update in granular form..

A number of states have set up the State Security Commissoin to appoint DGPs...Lots of states have diluted "transfers" authorities to the police administration chain - you dont usually hear of en masse change of Inspectors and SPs with every change of govt anymore, it used to be de rigeur even 10 years back...

Some changes have fiscal implications, whcih many states dont have a whole lot of leeway on...

Of course, the biggest daddy is lack of political will........

But developments like Lokpal (or RTI) are breakthrough, disruptive stuff - they create a new paradigm, open up the system for complete scrutiny and effectively change the system...A bit more realistic than cries of "our constitution rubbish, our politicans crooked - nothing can happen, we need Paki/Chinese/Singaporean systems".....

Som,

Clearly there is no "it". Were they waiting for Nataraja to define the "it" ? If so, I did two posts ago. The "it" is to make police independent. I will accept any flavor of it that any legislative assembly chooses to pass. Problem is, as you have pointed out, none(not even a singly legislative assembly) have even addressed the issue or deliberated it, in any form or flavor.

You actually believe it, dont you. You really believe, deep down in your heart, that it is more realistic to reform our system from within than the possibility of a series of events that would lead to the demise of the current system.

It just comes down to this. What one thinks is more likey and realistic.

I just think it is more realistic that the system be done away with.

If you disagree, you dont have to get angry with me about it. I am not speculating on your demise. Just the system's. But I honestly, sincerely believe that as far fetched as it may be, that the current system will be done away with in the forseeable future, it is even more far fetched to expect any meaningful changes from within our current system.

Why does this bother you to the point of nastiness ? Trust me, if a new system is to come about, we can arrange it so even you will be better off and we can actually implement some of your bright ideas and even a few of Harbans's cockeyed ones, even though I must confess, most of the time, I have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Jun 2011 08:38

Well, I dont know what you mean by "purushartha, dharma" et al - when were these concepts in their full "bloom"? The Gupta age? Or the Maurya? Unfortunately we live in the 21st century, most people dont identify with the Guptas or Mauryas...Its a bit like saying that the Italians should take lessons on rejuvenation by referring back to the Roman Age...

In absence of concrete actioanable ideas, these are, I am sorry to say, just words.

if you don't know what those words mean, google them. they're easy to understand. there is nothing "Gupta" or "Mauryan" about them. these are highly developed socio-political-cultural concepts. Dharma, simply speaking, revolves around the idea that there must be a sustainable balance in human actions that takes into account ones responsibilities towards family, society, environment, Rashtra, etc. your understanding is that anything that is supposedly "old style" or "sanskritic" is outdated and redundant. these concepts have nothing to do with Old and New. they are good parameters by which actions can be judged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puru%E1%B9%A3%C4%81rtha

the above is a good place to start. I have no intention of starting another back and forth nonsense with you. but just though I'd point out that your understanding of "old style" as being irrelevant is based on your opinion, and not on any logic. these concepts are not defined for a particular time. and where they are defined for a particular time, they can be ignored and adapted to suit present day situations.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jun 2011 08:42

nataraja wrote:Why does this bother you to the point of nastiness ?

Not sure where you felt the "nastiness" in my posts, there was no such intention...But if you did, apologies for "unintended consequences"

...

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 08:48

somnath wrote:
nataraja wrote:Why does this bother you to the point of nastiness ?
Not sure where you felt the "nastiness" in my posts, there was no such intention...But if you did, apologies for "unintended consequences" ...

No apologies necessary.

No agreements necessary.

All that is necessary is that we understand each other's language. I am angry at the system. You were angry at me. You thought I was angry at you, when in actuality, I was not, am not. I am still angry with the system, which prevents people like you from having that creative outlet, even if I may disagree with some of your prescriptions.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 20 Jun 2011 11:05

nataraja wrote: Why not make the entire police force independent ?

What we need is a revolution that would would constitute a new government which would be willing to do a comprehensive reform of governance in this country starting with a massive witch hunt against the corrupt.

Whether such a revolution will actually happen or not is up in the air, but I am definitely keeping my hopes high and the recent fiasco at Ramlila grounds have definitively lifted my hopes. The government got off easy, next time it may not have the same luxury.

But barring such a revolution, rest assured this is going to be long drawn affair. For example, just to get rid of this issue of "corruption at high places" (which is not to be confused with still larger issue of "corruption"), we would need: 1) an effective and independent unit that is willing to seriously investigate an prosecute the corrupt no matter who they may be, 2) an efficient judiciary which can quickly dispose of corruption cases, and 3) complete electoral reforms that bar violent criminals and the corrupt from entering into government in the first place.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jun 2011 11:16

Dhiman wrote:
nataraja wrote: Why not make the entire police force independent ?
What we need is a revolution that would would constitute a new government which would be willing to do a comprehensive reform of governance in this country starting with a massive witch hunt against the corrupt.

Whether such a revolution will actually happen or not is up in the air, but I am definitely keeping my hopes high and the recent fiasco at Ramlila grounds have definitively lifted my hopes. The government got off easy, next time it may not have the same luxury.

But barring such a revolution, rest assured this is going to be long drawn affair. For example, just to get rid of this issue of "corruption at high places" (which is not to be confused with still larger issue of "corruption"), we would need: 1) an effective and independent unit that is willing to seriously investigate an prosecute the corrupt no matter who they may be, 2) an efficient judiciary which can quickly dispose of corruption cases, and 3) complete electoral reforms that bar violent criminals and the corrupt from entering into government in the first place.

Revolution is a fine idea. But how do you ensure that the new leaders who emerge from the so-called downtrodden will usher in Ram rajya? How do you ensure the oppressed do not become oppressors when they are in power?

If history is any guide revolutions are not really good ideas as far as ushering in a new era of justice, accountability etc.

Remember 1947 was also a revolution where the blood sucking colonial power was ousted by the downtrodden. Now more 60 years later you need to call for another revolution. When will you be calling for the next one?

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jun 2011 11:21

nataraja wrote:Why not make the entire police force independent ? So, if someone robs me of all my belongings, the non-independent police force should investigate my case, and when a minister takes money, an independent agency should investigate it. Why ?

The way to make police independent is the same way that Lok Pal will make its investigative arm independent.

I must say some of the stuff being posted here are highly entertaining!

Boss I hope you understand that general law enforcement (which includes everything from fighting terrorists and thugs to intervening in domestic disputes, etc) and investigation into specific acts of corruption, alleged or otherwise, are two different things.

An independent police force? You gotta to be kidding. Who would head this force? Would you have a supreme commander in charge of the Indian police force? Do you realise that would mean a huge pan Indian militia which would be outside the control of the GoI. That's something which is more suited for a Banana Republic not India.

At least think before posting boss, otherwise you only score self-goals.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jun 2011 11:23

nataraja wrote:Why does this bother you to the point of nastiness ?

This is rich coming from someone who, only a few posts above posted this:

nataraja wrote:I agree.

Som and Harbans have much better taste. They would not be serving a cheap, roadside shanty made cake to Respected Rahul ji. They would be offering the very sumptuous and finger licking Tiramisu flown specially(or freshly arrived as part of carry on baggage of the highly revered Soniaji) from Risorante Pompi in Rome !

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 11:26

amit wrote:
Dhiman wrote:What we need is a revolution that would would constitute a new government which would be willing to do a comprehensive reform of governance in this country starting with a massive witch hunt against the corrupt.

Whether such a revolution will actually happen or not is up in the air, but I am definitely keeping my hopes high and the recent fiasco at Ramlila grounds have definitively lifted my hopes. The government got off easy, next time it may not have the same luxury.

But barring such a revolution, rest assured this is going to be long drawn affair. For example, just to get rid of this issue of "corruption at high places" (which is not to be confused with still larger issue of "corruption"), we would need: 1) an effective and independent unit that is willing to seriously investigate an prosecute the corrupt no matter who they may be, 2) an efficient judiciary which can quickly dispose of corruption cases, and 3) complete electoral reforms that bar violent criminals and the corrupt from entering into government in the first place.
Revolution is a fine idea. But how do you ensure that the new leaders who emerge from the so-called downtrodden will usher in Ram rajya? How do you ensure the oppressed do not become oppressors when they are in power?

If history is any guide revolutions are not really good ideas as far as ushering in a new era of justice, accountability etc.

Remember 1947 was also a revolution where the blood sucking colonial power was ousted by the downtrodden. Now more 60 years later you need to call for another revolution.

There are no guarantees, except for this one. The current system is a guaranteed failure and the absolute pits. Therefore, as high as the risks are of having a revolution and I agree it is quite dangerous, the depths to which the current dispensation has sunk has made doing nothing a far greater risk than taking action.

Whether in life of individuals, or in lives of nations, one seldom faces easy or clear cut choices. Most of the time, people and nations have to make difficult decisions, very tough decisions without any guarantees of future success. It is time, we Indians make the tough decisions. If one revolution does'nt do the trick, we will and should have as many as are needed till we get it right.

But let us be confident. Let us have faith, in ourselves and God, that we will succeed the first time......and Inshaallah......very soon after our first revolution, Pakistan will become our vessal state, as it should be, as it is written and as our Gods, all of them, along with our people, wish it. But that is not even going to be the begining. It will only be a prologue. We will achieve much greater things as we move through history.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Jun 2011 11:33

From this thread we can see why it's so goddamned difficult to eliminate corrupt practises:

1. People who are giving concrete steps to reform are ridiculed.

2 Complete failure to disassociate political association and corruption.

3. Complete failure to define corruption except as a nebulous hazy concept. l

4. Complete failure to to understand how reform of policy alone can lead to massive reduction and elimination of corruption.

5. Complete failure to understand why Policy and Systemic reform alone is the most important element in tackling the Raja's and Sukh Rams.

6. Complete focus on hatred, ire on the INC alone, diluting the focused bid to discussing ending corruption. . Despite the fact and the vast body of evidence that suggests it cuts across party lines.

7. Endorsement of views of those who swear by Pakistani and Chinese systems of authoritarian rule and re education of Indians.

So lets see whats been suggested by those pouring over many pages by those that are not convinced that suggested policy reform will do the trick:

1. Quick retribution.

2. Hindu Rashtra/ instillment of Dharma to Instilling Pak and Achinese state models on India.

3. Usurping the Constitution.

4. Nationalization of oversees assets of Indians.

5. The 'truth' that increase in corruption == increase in materialism. Despite the blatant evidence in your face..that the societies of some of the most developed countries, have the least corruption in them.

Awareness is there yes. But what if different forces and thought processes want to hijack it for their own agenda's? How is it that the very purpose (that of fighting corruption) with which they started will be solved?

How is it that, with so many different agenda's you'll get agreement, let alone focus on the issue of corruption?

The symptom here is clearly to ride on any voice that can create anger, passion against corruption, irrespective who or what agenda's such voices may have.

5.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jun 2011 11:34

amit wrote:Do you realise that would mean a huge pan Indian militia which would be outside the control of the GoI

Its a point that a lot of people, including sometime enthusiastic civil society doyens themselves, forget - untimately, people of India are the sovereign...And people of India are represented by the Parliament..Every institution is subservient to the sovereign...Everything else flows down from there...Separation of powers, between various arms of the state is a delicate balancing act, and needs to be done carefully...Our Constitution tries to establish exactly that, and statutes need to keep that in mind...

When people like Prakash Singh and others talk of "indepndence" of the police, they dont mean setting up a supra authority not answerable to the Parliament..What they intend to do is to remove interferences in day-to-day functioning of the police by the political executive...Therefore, create institutions, where the higher political executive will restrict themselves to their mandate of higher political management, and leave the nitty gritties to the police administration...

Unfortunately, people already imply that India is a banana republic (and China, Singapore and Pakistan(!) are better), and that is why maybe we get "solutions" that range from "moral education" to "revolution"...

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 20 Jun 2011 11:38

How the Congress killed the Anna Hazare movement

Moderators, delete the post if you deemed it is inappropriate. Here is one of the comment posted by indian3 and I thought it is worth posting in full. For me it seems like the indian3 is one of BRFite.

Thanks to the Indian media, the country is focused on the sideshows
rather than the umpteen number of scams and the black money and all other
forms of corruption inflicted on our hapless nation by the Congress and its policies.

A child develops as he/she is told/shown by parents and neighbourhood.
When parents resort to lies and are of semi/little wisdom ,the child becomes immature in handling /works.
Media in particular ,who are meant to serve truthful news for public information, become a farse when they resort to lies and are purchased,by political heads.
So ultimately the political heads are the reasons for a corrupt and damaging medium!
Media laws are made such that they are untouched .People know it but are helples!
There has to be a constitutional provision allowing to take up the media when they falter in serving truthful news!

In my opinion Indian media is more corrupt that even Indian politicians
and many examples can be given to prove that.
like 2G Scam

Today's media is governed by private limited companies.they are listed on stock exchanges
and the primary motive is profit & working towards the interest of investors.
Social awareness & awakening is not their primary aim...
That is why more often than not we get biased news or fake news which is far from reality.

Media is one of the most corrupt institutions in India, they will do anything
to get richer and improve their TRP,
including feeding viewer with false info and spreading rumours of worst kinds
and then they have some really scary hosts talking about the incidents taken place all over the country

I have come across some interesting information about the ownership of media in India.
What is media? Media is plural of medium. Mass media is the term used to denote, as a class, that section of the media specifically conceived and designed to reach a very large audience (typically at least as large as the whole population of a nation state).

There are several major publishing groups in India, the most prominent among them being the Times of India Group, the Indian Express Group, the Hindustan Times Group, The Hindu group, the Anandabazar Patrika Group, the Eenadu Group, the Malayalam Manorama Group, the Mathrubhumi group, the Sahara group, the Bhaskar group, and the Dainik Jagran group.

India has more than 40 domestic news agencies. The Express News Service, the Press Trust of India, and the United News of India are among the major news agencies. Let us see the ownership of different media agencies.

NDTV: A very popular TV news media is funded by Gospels of Charity in Spain supports Communism. Recently it has developed a soft corner towards Pakistan because Pakistan President has allowed only this channel to be aired in Pakistan. Indian CEO Prannoy Roy is co-brother of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of Communist party of India.

India Today which used to be the only national weekly who supported BJP is now bought by NDTV!! Since then the tone has changed drastically and turned into Hindu bashing.

CNN-IBN: This is 100 percent funded by Southern Baptist Church with its branches in all over the world with HQ in US. The Church annually allocates $800 million for promotion of its channel. Its Indian head is Rajdeep Sardesai and his wife Sagarika Ghosh.

Times group list:

Times Of India, Mid-Day, Nav-Bharth Times, Stardust, Femina, Vijaya Times, Vijaya Karnataka, Times now (24- hour news channel) and many more. Times Group is owned by Bennet & Coleman. “World Christian Council” does 80 percent of the Funding, and an Englishman and an Italian equally share balance 20 percent. The Italian Robertio Mindo is a close relative of Sonia Gandhi.

Star TV: It is run by an Australian, who is supported by St. Peters Pontificial Church Melbourne.

Hindustan Times: Owned by Birla Group, but hands have changed since Shobana Bhartiya took over. Presently it is working in Collobration with Times Group.

The Hindu: English daily, started over 125 years has been recently taken over by Joshua Society, Berne, Switzerland.
Indian Express: Divided into two groups.

The Indian Express and new Indian Express (southern edition). Acts Ministries has major stake in the Indian Express and later is still with the Indian counterpart.

Eeenadu: Still to date controlled by an Indian named Ramoji Rao. Ramoji Rao is connected with film industry and owns a huge studio in Andhra Pradesh.

Andhra Jyothi: The Muslim party of Hyderabad known as MIM along with a Congress Minister has purchased this Telgu daily very recently.

The Statesman: It is controlled by Communist Party of India. Kairal TV: It is controlled by Communist party of India (Marxist)

Mathrubhoomi: Leaders of Muslim League and Communist leaders have major investment.

Asian Age and Deccan Chronicle: Is owned by a Saudi Arabian Company with its chief Editor M.J. Akbar
.

The ownership explains the control of media in India by foreigners. The result is obvious. —

Poor Hindus

Once Robert Clive was asked as to how he conquered India with the help of some dozen Britishers. He said
Hindus could be bought with money and Muslims with women. He said "I did both". And British ruled India
for 300 years. When West Bengal was reeling under famine and 3 million people lost their lives, the
British exported rice from India. Anything more is required to show the cowardice of Hindus?"

First the British and then the Congress ensured that the Indian spirit
and the culture, which is entirely Hindu, becomes an anathema to the
so-called educated Indian (read anything by those worms from JNU).
Having ensured that by a systematic brainwashing of middle class Hindus,
the COMMUNAL now is the latest gaali that these pseudo-secular like to use.
Terms like “commoonal and seklaar” have become part of the Hindi vernacular
thanks to the likes of lalloo Yadav and his ilk. Now people who are so uncharitably
termed communal can do no right in the eyes of the Indian media.

If Narendra Modi says that the sky is blue, there will be a procession led by Digvijay Singh and covered by Barkha Dutt debating that. That is the depth these corrupt media mavens have sunk to.

The problem facing India is not Baba Ramdev and his empire or his escape in a
saree or permit for 5000 versus 50000 people or presence of Sadhvi Rithambara
on the same stage or the RSS support or Govindacharya’s / BJPs support to Baba.
THAT WAS NEVER THE BLOODY ISSUE. But if you read the newspapers, you would think
that the country has been run over by crazed and corrupt Hindus who are thirsty
for minority blood and the only person standing between complete anarchy and
existence of the Indian civilization are people like Digvijay Singh, Kapil Sibal and Sonia Gandhi!

To get skilled personnel is the least of the problems. The biggest problem is getting the right media house.

We all know this. Question is, why can't there be a media at par with IBN/NDTV / STAR / Indian express etc, which is controlled by Hindus? Why can't Pioneer, Organiser, Panchajanya become worldwide? There is anti Hindu media in Bhaarat, that does not mean that they cannot give the news about military along with Bollywood news.

"In one of his interview Kalam has said that in our desi journals and media people still not represent a country of a billion people."

The Indian media has no ethics & has been anti Hindu for a long time especially NDTV. It is sad that we as Hindus cannot/ do not have our own TV Channel to correct the aberrations & project patriotism / Nationalism along with our ancient culture.

What kind of newspaper do you think we have in India? In the largest selling newspaper you are more likely to find who Sallu Bhai’s squeeze du jour is rather than the latest administrative breakthrough by the Gujarat government. You are more likely to find what Rahul Gandhi ate while riding the Shatabdi express than what the hungry children in rural UP are eating (for that you will have to read the BBC). You are more likely to find the latest anti Hindu / conservative rant by Digvijay Singh than an honest demand the aam aadmi!

The only solution, and probably the cheapest and fastest is to create our own Hindu media which will take the so called secular media head on. All these issues of forced conversions, Setu Samudram are NOT highlighted by the existing media. The anti Hindu media led by Christian fanatics are having a free run.
It is absolutely amazing that a giant organisation like RSS has got only two weekly news papers, ORGANISER & PANCHAJANYA which has got a circulation of few thousands.
Why can't we have media of the size and power of IBN, STAR, Indian Express etc? We are all intelligent people. If VHP can collect 2000 crores to build the ram temple, why can't they collect money to start some daily papers from the major cities of Bhaarat and a 24 hour news channel in Bhaarat?
The frustration which we are venting out in this forum is fine but we need a BIG voice. Time is fast running out for Hindus.
There are news papers like PIONEER which are on our side. If they are funded properly they can take on the anti Hindu media.
John Kenneth Galbraith had called India a functioning anarchy.

During his term as the USA ambassador to India, or just after it, the late John Kenneth Galbraith had called India a functioning anarchy. Here is what exactly he meant by this term.

There are some things you say to attract attention. I wanted to emphasise the point, which would be widely accepted, that the success of India did not depend on the government. It depended on the energy, ingenuity and other qualifications of the Indian people. And the Indian quality to put ideas into practice. I was urging an obvious point that the progress of India did not depend on the government, as important as that might be, but was enormously dependent on the initiative, individual and group - We've seen many years of Indian progress, and that is attributable to the energy and genius of the Indian people and the Indian culture.

MEDIA JUST GET TURN ON DHONI`S DRAMA AND ITS CREW MEMBER ,WHEREAS NO OTHER SPORTS GET GOOD COVERAGE BY THE INDIAN MEDIA . EVEN PEOPLE ARE NOT AWARE OF DIFFERENT SPORTS NONE OTHER THAN CRICKET, IT IS THE IMPORTANT DEAL FOR THEM . REDICULOUS SHOTS ARE SNAPPED AT DIFFERENT INSTANT WHERE AS few glimpse of nation news on the scroll bar of your tv screen ,that the mess media created to make money but not providing news even you will hear raju sirvastav on national news channel like aajtak ,zee news and even more . ..

See some snapshot of top news channel of india and decide yourself which kind of news they are showing to us..

Indian media biased and corrupt
To analyze this question, we have to take help of two aspects. One is evolution of Indian media and second aspect is the people sitting in the backdoor and having the string of Media management in India. Let’s discuss both the points one by one.

Evolution of Indian media-biasness and corruption

As far as biasness is concerned, Indian media is a biased one from the day of inception. Take the first phase of evolution that is pre-independence Era. Most of the Indian newspapers were engaged only in propagating the misrule of British government. It was biasness for a freedom struggle that was need of the hour. This phase was completely free from corruption. Second evolution started in Indian media scenario during emergency. Biasness of Indian media was crystal clear then. One group of media succumbed to the government machinery and supported emergency while only a very few opposed it with lots of pain and scars. Corruption started entering Indian media scenario in this phase. However, fear was the major factor for biasness for majority of Indian media houses in that period.

The third evolution of Indian media started with “Tehlka”. For the first time, sting operation was operated. Then it became a potential but cheap weapon for politicians/ people in corridor of power to ruin their rival’s career through this. Several sting operations could not prove their credibility and it simply signifies planted and planned conspiracy against a person for an intended outcome. Fourth and the most vital evolution came after the popularity of 24X7 news channels. The hunger for news became so unquenchable that creating news became the only option to retain the job of a journalist. Hence, biasness and corruption got easy opportunity to play their role. Along with, 24X7 channels turned newspapers to views papers. And, as a thumb rule views are biased whatever may be the extent of biasness.

Role of Media Mogul-Biasness and corruption

Let’s start with National media scenario. The national media moguls are mainly the business men. Hence, biasness towards a particular government/opposition (that suits their vested business interest) is obvious. Now come to regional newspaper scenario. Take the example of two states Tamilnadu and Odisha. In Tamilnadu, both the most popular TV channels and news papers are under the control of two key opponents- Mr. Karunanidhi and Ms. Jayalalita. Can any rational person expect unbiased news From Jaya TV on Mr. Karunandidhi and vice versa? In Odisha, the owners of all 5 leading newspapers and TV channels are either sitting MPs or ex Mps. Can they write against any wrong policy of their political boss at the stake of their career? The answer is strictly no.

To change the scenario, online media and blogging should flourish in India. It is the only way to save Indian media from biasness and corruption.

amit · Post by **amit** » 20 Jun 2011 11:39

nataraja wrote:There are no guarantees, except for this one. The current system is a guaranteed failure and the absolute pits. Therefore, as high as the risks are of having a revolution and I agree it is quite dangerous, the depths to which the current dispensation has sunk has made doing nothing a far greater risk than taking action.

Whether in life of individuals, or in lives of nations, one seldom faces easy or clear cut choices. Most of the time, people and nations have to make difficult decisions, very tough decisions without any guarantees of future success. It is time, we Indians make the tough decisions. If one revolution does'nt do the trick, we will and should have as many as are needed till we get it right.

But let us be confident. Let us have faith, in ourselves and God, that we will succeed the first time......and Inshaallah......very soon after our first revolution, Pakistan will become our vessal state, as it should be, as it is written and as our Gods, all of them, along with our people, wish it. But that is not even going to be the begining. It will only be a prologue. We will achieve much greater things as we move through history.

Nice Bhasan boss, especially the last para. But you need to clarify what exactly you (and for the matter Dhiman) mean when you use the term "revolution". Are you referring to a regime change? Or are you referring to a total upheaval of the social (and political) order?

A true revolution would imply the latter. The first one is not a revolution but simply a case of people getting fed up with the current dispensation and voting it out of power. If that's what you mean why say so directly?

If a true proletariat revolution (as opposed to one where politicians/political parties control the strings from the background) were to occur it would have to sweep away the entire political class - and this would include the BJP and NDA - and replace it with a new political order. Now that's one that is fraught with dangers as history has shown us.

But I suspect neither you nor Dhiman are referring to the above. What you want to say is that you want a popular revolt against the UPA so that there's a mid term election which would sweep the BJP/NDA to power. That's fine, I personally think the UPA should be punished at the hustings, but say so directly. Why try to couch that in revolutionary terminology? Is because, having called folks who disagree with your world view, Congress stooges and worse you are scared of being called a BJP stooge?

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 20 Jun 2011 11:39

amit wrote: Remember 1947 was also a revolution where the blood sucking colonial power was ousted by the downtrodden. Now more 60 years later you need to call for another revolution. When will you be calling for the next one?

So according to you, we should all just go to sleep and do nothing since as you say the one in 1947 didn't work?