The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[somnath]

^^^the example of Real Estate is most illuminating...RE in India is as ubiquitous, if not as headline making, an area of bad-policy-leading-to-corruption/blackmoney as telecom...Between Rent Control laws, stamp duties and tax structures - it almost begs to be "corrupted"...With lack of a proper and modern Land Acquisition Law and tax breaks on SEZs, the level of potential corruption and black money generation has been taken up manifold...

[somnath]

Seems this got missed out in the discussion around "corruption"..

Yeddy was looking to do a "truth test", and challenging others to it as well!
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/yeddy ... s/809261/0

With people like these, obscurantism is never far away....

[symontk]

WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political;
LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;
EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;
and to promote among them all
FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;
IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION

These few bolded words above make sure that the people of india are under its constitution. That is, people of India resolved the constitution and thus became citizens under it. They were called "people of India" and not citizens in the preamble since they didnt had this constitution earlier. The "people of india" refers to the people in India after 1947 Aug 15th

Just FYI for the poster above. Just my thoughts

[Arjun]

With people like these, obscurantism is never far away....

How does Yedyurappa compare to that den of 'obscurantism' - the US of A ? The entire US judicial system and practically all Presidents have 'sworn on the Bible'....

[chetak]

How does Yedyurappa compare to that den of 'obscurantism' - the US of A ? The entire US judicial system and practically all Presidents have 'sworn on the Bible'....

They can ill afford not to.

Just because you bathe every day and shave does not mean that you cannot be a religious fundo!!

The US is as fundo as they come. Many people get taken in by the window dressing onlee.

[somnath]

How does Yedyurappa compare to that den of 'obscurantism' - the US of A ? The entire US judicial system and practically all Presidents have 'sworn on the Bible'....

In India, most MPs/MLAs/Ministers/PMs take oath in the name of God - Ishwar, Allah whatever (only some take an oath in the name of the Constituion)...

Not that one example of obscurantism justifies another, but this isnt one...

But a CM taking recourse to some mythical spiritual truth discovery exercise (agni pariksha, anyone?) to "prove" his innocence, and for good measure challenging opponents to do the same - it marks a new standard in obscurantism...Maybe next time anyone is accused of anything in Karnataka, he can simply ask for the same truth test!

[Arjun]

In India, most MPs/MLAs/Ministers/PMs take oath in the name of God - Ishwar, Allah whatever (only some take an oath in the name of the Constituion)...

Not that one example of obscurantism justifies another, but this isnt one...

But a CM taking recourse to some mythical spiritual truth discovery exercise (agni pariksha, anyone?) to "prove" his innocence, and for good measure challenging opponents to do the same - it marks a new standard in obscurantism...Maybe next time anyone is accused of anything in Karnataka, he can simply ask for the same truth test!

Its not just public servants taking up their posts that swear in the name of God - judicial courts also use this as a standard technique to have the witness swear in the name of God to 'tell nothing but the truth'. This is fundamentally a very Christian concept - which I understand also has been replicated in Indian courts.

Conceptually what Yedyurappa was doing was no different from saying that he is prepared to swear to the truth in the name of God, and would his opponent be prepared to do the same. My personal feeling is that Christians (more so from the Western democracies) would not find this to be as obscurantist. 'Progressive' Hindus do find it obscurantist because it is a strange and unfamiliar exercise that seems to have been imported from Christianity.

[somnath]

This is fundamentally a very Christian concept - which I understand also has been replicated in Indian courts.

Conceptually what Yedyurappa was doing was no different from saying that he is prepared to swear to the truth in the name of God, and would his opponent be prepared to do the same.

Christian or not, but this has been there from prior to independence...But to equate that with the stupidity of what Yeddy attempted, well....Maybe Nixon should have attempted to proclaim innocence by swearing in the nearest Church! And asked all his opponents to do the same!

[Arjun]

Maybe Nixon should have attempted to proclaim innocence by swearing in the nearest Church! And asked all his opponents to do the same!

Why do that when the federal court would have anyway asked him and his accusers to swear on the Bible?

[somnath]

^^Indian courts would do that for Yeddy as wel, right? And yes, Nixon didnt have to go to court, Yeddy could be..

[Sanku]

Christian or not, but this has been there from prior to independence...But to equate that with the stupidity of what Yeddy attempted, well....Maybe Nixon should have attempted to proclaim innocence by swearing in the nearest Church! And asked all his opponents to do the same!

If he had some people would be then claiming that as a best practice.

When in doubt always ask "what would Nixon do". -- is the motto of this elite club.

=========

In Nixon we trust.

[ShauryaT]

What is the "factual basis" behind your belief that the "system" can reform itself without any external pressure?

Not sure on what do you mean by external but the pressure will come from the people. Harbans ji has responded to you, which would be in line with my thoughts. The only thing I did add is, enforcement does not work in a vacuum. Example, The courts in India are over burdened and need more investment, we all know that. But here are some additional data points. In over 50% of the open cases, it is a PSU/government department that is one of the parties to the cases. In a good chunk of these cases, both sides are PSU/government departments. Now imagine a day, when PSU's as we know them do not exist (that is the long term goal of disinvestment) and number of government departments is trimmed and its powers severely curtailed. The number of open cases in courts go down.

Similarly, serious structural reform that addresses some fundamental questions on the role of government and its relationship with the Indian people, without a colonial overhang is the need of the hour. A party/group that is committed to this principle of structural reform, fiscal discipline, reduce the size of government and get the government out of the business of business is the need of the hour.

[RamaY]

But a CM taking recourse to some mythical spiritual truth discovery exercise (agni pariksha, anyone?) to "prove" his innocence, and for good measure challenging opponents to do the same - it marks a new standard in obscurantism...Maybe next time anyone is accused of anything in Karnataka, he can simply ask for the same truth test!

This is a good move by Yadyurappa to counter the nonsensical and non-stop accusations from Kumarasamy and INC. The opposition in K'taka is making new accusations everyday stalling the govt functions.

It will take years if not decades for Yadyurappa to prove his innocence in courts and public opinion cannot wait that long as he will be standing for elections in 2+ years.

This way Yadyurappa can prove to the public, that matters the most in political arena, his innocence and opposition perfidy. KTaka public already started doubting Yadyurappa's ability to withstand the opposition pressure and also deliver immediate results. Commoners like strong leaders, even if they are corrupt, as only strong leaders can bring some change in their lives.

[devesh]

guys, Somnath's latest hate spewing against "saffron" brigade is the most nonsensical and as such, it is useless to entertain his delusions of enlightenment. words such as "obscurantism," etc are used to cover up a fundamental dislike of any action or behavior that is "Hindu" in nature. if a politician who has been under constant attack visits a temple for blessings and to make a statement in the presence of God, then that becomes "obscurantism." what about many other sickulars who visit Islamic religious centers and state their "secular" credentials? are they obscurantists too? of course, Somnath will remain mum about this. or, more amusingly, he will ask for "empirics" to prove this "claim."

[Sanku]

He is most recently found sympathizing US views on Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh considering India was such a "over hyped but underperforming country" (his words)

[Victor]

These types don't have the balls to snigger at obscurantist fartwas with the same abandon.

[RamaY]

I know. Unfortunately it is in our best interest to respond as many of us face such [sic] secular PoVs day in and day out and need as many logical responses as possible.

[nikkap]

Err..., Was that truly your thought-out post

If you read my previous post I have never claimed it to be my school of thought. govt’s across the globe try to convert republic into democratic form.. Judges know this game. If you claim your soverignaity, the Indian judges will co-operate more than you can imagine. Do not take my word for it, go to your nearest law library and cross check everything I have put here. I can provide you supreme court judgements and their citation number as an evidence.

Babulal Parate vs The State Of Bombay And Another on 28 August, 1959
Equivalent citations: 1960 AIR 51, 1960 SCR (1) 605
Bench: Das, S.K

The Constituent Assembly of India, deriving its power from the sovereign people.


Importance of preamble as considered by courts- some examples

IN re Kerala Education Bill AIR 1958 SC 956.
Poppatlal Shah V The Stte of Madras AIR 1953 SC 274.
Barrackpore Coal Co. Ltd V UOI AIR 1961 SC 954.

OK, I am all for diversity of opinion, but what is your opinion? I have not understood. Let truth be strange, but let truth be backed by evidence and reason.

Shaurya T there are a lot of supreme court judgments which explain sovereignty I have mentioned few just to give you a hint that what I am stating is not gibberish but it has standing in law.brother I am sharing all this because it’s implications are huge because when you are one of people you stand under commonlaw.in common law your allegiance is to god only. In simple words no incometax,no driving license etc you will not be bound by anything which has ACT at his end.(motor vehicle act,income tax act etc)

, or is it based on arguments of those American thinkers who argue that the US is legally a corporation?

What you are referring to is UCC redemption process which I do not support nor do I endorse it. I always copy and paste some of the material that I have came across in support of my argument this depth study come from b.thornton in America he is the original source.

GOVT OF INDIA IS A CORPORATION. HOW DO YOU RECOGANISE A CORPORATION EASY CORPORATION HAVE PRESDINT, VICEPRESIDENT BUT COUNTRIES IN OUR CASE STATES HAVE GOVERNORS.

These few bolded words above make sure that the people of india are under its constitution. That is, people of India resolved the constitution and thus became citizens under it. They were called "people of India" and not citizens in the preamble since they didnt had this constitution earlier. The "people of india" refers to the people in India after 1947 Aug 15th

Just FYI for the poster above. Just my thoughts

Symontk let me clarify more people & citizen are two different things. why preamble doesn’t say to secure all it’s people research & you will find that GOI never defined the word citizen uptill citizenship act 1955.see the deception in law. basically people declare constitution for govt of india as standard operating procedure to tell them this is how you are going to run this country for our benefit.

Why change into citizen because people have rights & rights cannot be taken away nor can be taxed under any law because rights come from common law (god’s law) not from any manmade law but when you are a citizen you have civil rights(privileges) which can be taxed & taken away eg:- govt have amended the right to property in india for the citizens coz it’s a civil right

[Rudradev]

He is most recently found sympathizing US views on Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh considering India was such a "over hyped but underperforming country" (his words)

Beyond that, some very interesting Elite Iskooled assertions have been made about Pakistan's alleged "outperformance" of India "from the 1960s to the mid-1980s". It is claimed that this "success" was not merely a function of Pakistan's out-and-out subsidization by the US during that period.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=2640
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=2680

Apparently this can all be credited to "sensible policy-making" by the Ayub Khan government! According to this narrative: Pakistan, as a result of "favourable policies", outperformed India "for some time" but "could not carry [the reforms] through".

Even if we take this bilge at face value, and accept it as true, it's rather a strange contradiction to the spurious notion being breathlessly and repeatedly peddled on this thread, isn't it? i.e., The notion that good policy always begets good results and that's all one needs to succeed!

After all, if Pakistan had "good policy" on its side in the 1950s through the 1980s... and showed "results" of this alleged "good policy" over that period... why, then, did it end up getting flushed down the Pakistan and become the hopeless turd-bag we know today?

Obviously because:

a) There is more to determining "growth" than the existence of "good policy" measures; the implementation of policy is at least as important as the mere existence of policy instruments. If the implementation is inefficient or intentionally flawed, even the best policy instruments become useless, and replacing them with still more policy instruments (like the Kapil Sibal-approved version of the Lok Pal Bill) is an absolute sham.

b) The prevalence of a corrupt, self-serving leadership virtually guarantees that with even the best of "policy instruments" in place, the system itself will be usurped to ensure the gains of an elite at the expense of the masses. There is no question of any policy initiatives being carried through to a crystallization of their intent in real terms, when someone like the Paki Army (or the Mainovadis) remain in charge.

So again, according to this narrative: Pakistan showed great promise as a rising economic power from 1960-1985 or so, much more promise than India did. Yet, even with "sensible economic policies" it became a failed state even in the medium-term (let alone the long-term). This clearly exposes the absurd shallowness of arguments that rely exclusively on incremental "data" like "X% GDP growth" and "Y% increase in standard of living", when it comes to charting the course of a nation's destiny.

Today, the Mainovadi apologists insist that all change must come from within the parameters of an already-subverted system... wait 5 years and then "vote out" the criminal government that has already corrupted the electoral process... focus on devising "policy instruments" that are as good as dead on arrival... but whatever you do, don't create situations that would compromise the "growth story."

We all know what happened to Pakistan's "growth story", don't we? For a short while, they too could point to TFTA GDP growth (as opposed to our "Hindoo" rate of growth.) They too could pride themselves on being compared to South Korea or Taiwan (the way we pride ourselves on being one of the "economic powerhouses" of the world today.)

None of that was proof against a criminal leadership who subverted the system to fulfill its own venal ends. Yet, during the 1960s-80s, this maya of Pakistan's "growth story" was certainly used as a pretext to silence Pakistani citizens who expressed the need for genuine systemic reform. After all, Pakistan was doing better than India for the time being, wasn't it? So why complain if the constitution was being subverted by bloodsucking dictators?

Today, the same nonsense of an everlasting halcyon period following the vaunted policy reforms of 1991, is being peddled to justify the criminal excesses of the Mainovadi regime in India. "Good policy" in India began in 1991 according to this narrative; today we have 9% GDP growth, and we are being compared to China, EU, US etc. as one of the economic heavyweights of the world.

However, in Pakistan, "sensible policy-measures" ended up having zero impact on the national destiny, and whatever "growth" they engendered turned out to be a flash in the pan... exactly because the system was subverted by a criminal excuse for a leadership. Thanks to the rise of Sonia Maino as an extra-constitutional supreme authority, this is rapidly becoming the case in India.

If we restrict ourselves to seeking solutions "within the system", like this farce of a Lok Pal Bill that the current GOI is trying to foist on the Anna Hazare team; if we silence activists like Baba Ramdev, who are determined to bring about systemic rather than cosmetic reform; if we resist any meaningful change to our corrupt system citing the risk to our "growth story" as a pretext; then we are guaranteed to be flushed down the Pakistan ourselves.

If not tomorrow then in the next decade, this maya of "good policy gives good results" will become apparent for what it is. As with Pakistan, it may well be too late for us by then.

[somnath]

This is a good move by Yadyurappa to counter the nonsensical and non-stop accusations from Kumarasamy and INC. The opposition in K'taka is making new accusations everyday stalling the govt functions

Not sure that tha accusations are all "nonsensical"...The BJP itself has been constrained to declare that Yeddy's actions were "only imoral, not illegal"(!), whatever that means...

Anyways, that isnt the point - Yeddy is just the average corrupt politician, hopefully he will get his due in time...The point really is mixing up religion in political discourse in this fashion...Will we have political debates be settled, and criminality be established at the altar of "truth tests" in temples/mosques?

Just observe the reaction of the priests of that temple, as also BJP's own leadership - you will get your answer...

[RamaY]

I have been reading all the coverage on that issue so I know the facts. Yeddi made a political move that is most authentic in public eye than any other politician can ever make.

Why are you worried about that political response to nonsensical opposition? What is your compulsion?

Added later: that said why this compulsion to bring Yeddi into 2G scam thread?

[somnath]

And uber uperciliousness, as usual, cannot help but have more digs, even as they expose yet more deficiencies in knowledge....

So "good policy" is an etched-in-stone concept? Everything defined in Manusmriti should be "good poliy" today If a country takes some sensible economic steps, reaps some benefits, but then goes on to do nothing but implement the most eggregious of policies that engender its collapse, that is an example of "policies dont matter, only uber purity of purpose - non-Maino style that does"!

And yes, the Paki predilections are all a result of a "corrupt, self serving" leadership! And not a bunch of absolute disasters they brought upon themselves - official islamisation of the polity, complete lack of land reforms et al - all "policy choice" blunders..Eh, something genetic maybe, after all from South Korea to Japan, from China to Malaysia, countries with absolute corrupt-to-core leaderships ran amazing econmic success stories...Maybe because the corrupt leaders had the good sense to indulge in constant good policy interventions as well (and saw their own future to be linked to that of the success of their polciies)? But no, only cultural purity or the lack of it, explained by Mainowadis, can explain...

And throw in some banalities like "execution is as important" (as if anyone denied that) - and the picture of supercillious explanation is complete....

[somnath]

IAdded later: that said why this compulsion to bring Yeddi into 2G scam thread?

This is the only "scam related" thread, unless I have missed one - and Yeddi has just shown the political class a new method of dealing with corruption allegations

[RamaY]

There is a separate corruption thread. Kindly take your Yeddy discussion there

[Pranav]

CWC asks PM to speak to nation - http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... nation-180

Mainovadis are clamoring for MMS to become the fall guy, but MMS is not doing enough to play his designated role.

Meanwhile, the supreme court seems to be holding out against the Mainovadis: CBI to track 2G money trail in Switzerland - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 139912.ece

[somnath]

Interesting column by Samuel Paul on the "fast unto death" strategy..
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ke/440627/

Civil society’s role is to challenge abuses of public power, and influence policies, laws and public action through the power and logic of its ideas and arguments. Five people in a Lok Pal Bill committee do not represent a billion people. All they can claim is the citizens’ right to present their ideas to the government for a law that is long overdue. We already have representative institutions. It is their failure that necessitated the creation of this committee. And, it is the wisdom and persuasiveness of the civil society members that will make the difference, not their claim to be people’s representatives.

In many countries, when such dialogues and protests fail, civil society may demand a referendum on critical issues. Sometimes, such referendums are combined with elections. Given India’s large population, this option may be difficult to implement for some time to come. That leaves our periodic elections as the only option to unseat a government that does not listen to its citizens. It is a difficult and cumbersome process. But then, such is the nature of democracy

[ShauryaT]

IN re Kerala Education Bill AIR 1958 SC 956.
Poppatlal Shah V The Stte of Madras AIR 1953 SC 274.
Barrackpore Coal Co. Ltd V UOI AIR 1961 SC 954.
....
Shaurya T there are a lot of supreme court judgments which explain sovereignty I have mentioned few just to give you a hint that what I am stating is not gibberish but it has standing in law.brother I am sharing all this because it’s implications are huge because when you are one of people you stand under commonlaw.in common law your allegiance is to god only. In simple words no incometax,no driving license etc you will not be bound by anything which has ACT at his end.(motor vehicle act,income tax act etc)
....
Symontk let me clarify more people & citizen are two different things. why preamble doesn’t say to secure all it’s people research & you will find that GOI never defined the word citizen uptill citizenship act 1955.see the deception in law. basically people declare constitution for govt of india as standard operating procedure to tell them this is how you are going to run this country for our benefit.

Why change into citizen because people have rights & rights cannot be taken away nor can be taxed under any law because rights come from common law (god’s law) not from any manmade law but when you are a citizen you have civil rights(privileges) which can be taxed & taken away eg:- govt have amended the right to property in india for the citizens coz it’s a civil right

OK, I read that judgment, what it has to do with what you are saying and what indeed you are trying to say is totally unclear to me. I do understand sovereignity and common law...(does not mean God's law). In our system of governance, courts are not allowed to make their laws for that is the preserve of Parliament. But, I seriously fail to understand your point. Sorry.

[symontk]

GOVT OF INDIA IS A CORPORATION. HOW DO YOU RECOGANISE A CORPORATION EASY CORPORATION HAVE PRESDINT, VICEPRESIDENT BUT COUNTRIES IN OUR CASE STATES HAVE GOVERNORS.


Symontk let me clarify more people & citizen are two different things. why preamble doesn’t say to secure all it’s people research & you will find that GOI never defined the word citizen uptill citizenship act 1955.see the deception in law. basically people declare constitution for govt of india as standard operating procedure to tell them this is how you are going to run this country for our benefit.

Why change into citizen because people have rights & rights cannot be taken away nor can be taxed under any law because rights come from common law (god’s law) not from any manmade law but when you are a citizen you have civil rights(privileges) which can be taxed & taken away eg:- govt have amended the right to property in india for the citizens coz it’s a civil right

Citizens =/ people, thats what I also mentioned. But my point was that once constitution is created, its for the citizens and people of India became its citizens. Specific provisions of citizen act came later. I dont think it complicates anything

Overall I dont disagree with you on the non caps ones. But for that, saying that its a corporation is a bit stretch (capped ones)

[chetak]

Christian or not, but this has been there from prior to independence...But to equate that with the stupidity of what Yeddy attempted, well....Maybe Nixon should have attempted to proclaim innocence by swearing in the nearest Church! And asked all his opponents to do the same!

If he had some people would be then claiming that as a best practice.

When in doubt always ask "what would Nixon do". -- is the motto of this elite club.

=========

In Nixon we trust.

Both the jokers are in exactly the same category.

I wouldn't buy a used car from either of them!!

Such jokers bring shame to whichever organization that they represent.

[ShauryaT]

Symontk: The idea of we the people of India giving this constitution to ourselves has two narratives behind it. One, it was a rejection of the concept of a derived or inherited constitution from any higher authority and two the concept was picked up from the Irish constitution.

I do not know, what is this people, citizen nuance business and what is the point of it?

[somnath]

CMs giving views on Lokpal - Jayalalitha suports the stand of the PM not being under purview...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/jaya- ... al/809654/

[Sanku]

If not tomorrow then in the next decade, this maya of "good policy gives good results" will become apparent for what it is. As with Pakistan, it may well be too late for us by then.

A truly brilliant post Rudradev, a through demolition of lies being peddled.

[symontk]

Symontk: The idea of we the people of India giving this constitution to ourselves has two narratives behind it. One, it was a rejection of the concept of a derived or inherited constitution from any higher authority and two the concept was picked up from the Irish constitution.

I do not know, what is this people, citizen nuance business and what is the point of it?

There was a suggestion from another poster that constitution does not apply to people of India and only to Indian citizens. its about that

Again, Indian constitution derived from Irish constitution (not sure here). I thought it was from USSR (Federal) / US (Republic) / French (Rights) & British (Laws). In addition, Indian constitution added the duties apart from rights

[Rudradev]

To anyone with the slightest inkling of knowledge about Pakistan, it would be immediately obvious that the mess into which they have descended... including Islamization of the polity and a lack of land reforms, are the direct result of a corrupt, self serving leadership seeking to concentrate power into its own hands. 

Islamization of the masses has been a primary operative doctrine of Pakistani elite since even before there WAS a Pakistan... since the pork eating whiskey swillers of the Muslim League mobilized Direct Action Day and all that followed it.  Islamization merely continued to be encouraged by the leadership whenever its power was threatened, and had been nurtured by Bhutto for many years before Zia instituted it as official state "policy".

 And "lack of land reform" is supposed to be a "policy choice" now? It seems the definition of "policy" is to be tightened and loosened per the convenience of Mainovadi apologists trying to squirm out of their own spurious arguments! What next: will "lack of popularizing urine drinking" be cited as a "policy choice" by the Janata government? If the Muslim League political elite was to survive, it needed the cooperation of the Pakjabi landowners, which it would have lost through any attempt at "land reform"- period.   

Regardless- any IIT &/or IIM grad I know, would be quite capable of reasoning that Islamization and lack of land reform do not preclude a corrupt, self-serving leadership as causes for Pakistan's disaster. In fact, they are the creations of that corrupt, self-serving leadership.

But then most bona fide IIT &/or IIM grads don't feel the need to repeatedly remind others of their alleged "IIX alumni" status either, as a distraction from their analytically challenged arguments.  Which only makes one wonder what the "X" is supposed to stand for in this case

The Maino Regime in India show every sign of repeating the errors of that corrupt, self-serving leadership next door. Their predilection for divisive, communitarian politics is entirely unmatched by any precedent in independent India's history. To appease their Islamist electoral base, they encourage the felicitation of characters like Al Sudais by the Dar ul Uloom madrassa, and let TSP off the hook while launching witch-hunts against carefully fabricated narratives of "Hindu Terrorism". To stuff their own pockets with your money, they subvert the constitution; and to menace their political adversaries in opposition-ruled states, they subvert India's internal security with the use of Maoist guerilla proxies.

 Forget the GDP numbers... those were also "promising" in Pakistan, not so long ago. How long do you think we have before the Mainovadis cause irreversible damage in their extra-constitutional drive to power? While we bleat vacuuously about  "reform within the system onlee" and "that is the nature of democracy onlee" and  "good policy makes good results onlee"?  Remember... once subversion of internal security and rampant looting of the exchequer actually manage to flush India down the toilet... our much touted GDP numbers will follow suit very quickly.

It is also amusing that Korea has been cited as an example of a corrupt, self serving regime achieving an "economic success story" (one assumes that South Korea is being referred to here, not the Mainovadi North! )

South Korea is in fact a stellar example of what can happen when the formulators of some "good policy" also subvert a democratic constitution while fattening their own pockets. Reforms there were initiated in the mid 70s by military dictator Park Chung Hee-- "standard of living" and "GDP" numbers swelled impressively as a result, but the Korean people did not see this as a reason to quietly GUBO as their nation continued to be asphyxiated by a corrupt and self serving elite.

As the mantle of military dictatorship passed from Park to Chun Doo Hwan and then Roh Tae Woo, the Koreans did not restrict themselves to "solutions within the system" for fear of compromising the "growth story". Years of agitation culminated in the massive street protests of the June 1987 Democracy Movement, forcing constitutional changes that eventually led to a restoration of political rights. 

The Koreans were thus able to take their country back, and yet retain the benefits of their economic success story. They achieved this, not by waiting meekly on the whims of a corrupt leadership which had already subverted the system... but by doing whatever it took to force comprehensive change in the system.

When movements like Ramdev's and Hazare's crystallize, the Mainovadis --who have consistently subverted the Indian constitution for their own profit-- have one overarching fear.

They fear that we Indians will not behave like our Pakistani biradars... waiting in cowed intimidation for Mai baap sarkar to reform the system, until the system itself is sucked dry and collapses about our shoulders in a toxic heap.

They fear that we might behave like Koreans instead... and demand our country back. Along with a growth story that belongs-- not to the Mainovadis-- but to us.             

[sumishi]

...Shaurya T there are a lot of supreme court judgments which explain sovereignty I have mentioned few just to give you a hint that what I am stating is not gibberish but it has standing in law.brother I am sharing all this because it’s implications are huge because when you are one of people you stand under commonlaw.in common law your allegiance is to god only. In simple words no incometax,no driving license etc you will not be bound by anything which has ACT at his end.(motor vehicle act,income tax act etc)...

OK, I read that judgment, what it has to do with what you are saying and what indeed you are trying to say is totally unclear to me. ...

Seems what he is trying to convey is that we the people, as "citizens" of India, are actually "bonded" to the government, through legalese concoctions within/defining the preamble/constitution, and in reality do not have inalienable rights and democratic freedoms. Aka., we are in deep poop!

[harbans]

This is a good move by Yadyurappa to counter the nonsensical and non-stop accusations from Kumarasamy and INC. The opposition in K'taka is making new accusations everyday stalling the govt functions.

It will take years if not decades for Yadyurappa to prove his innocence in courts and public opinion cannot wait that long as he will be standing for elections in 2+ years.

Ramay ji, i am interested in how this 'Truth test' works. How is it supposed to be convincing and stop the sort of accusations being made? I always assumed it was common even in courts for people making statements or witnesses to swear on some Holy Book that what they say is true.

But accountability was always to the court and prosecution on perjury above any swearing in taken into account. But here you are recommending a way above any court function. How does it work? Could we have it introduced in the Lok Pal for instance. Why all the fuss then? Lets get Kalmadi and Raja do the Truth Test, right? Why has Gadkari himself rejected that?

[Dhiman]

1. If the wealth tax is 95% (say above an income of 10 LPA), would you try and evade taxes? A majority would. They'd become corrupt overnight. Irrational tax laws thus force people to become corrupt.

Sir, its not as simple as you make it out to be. The only time India had such high level of taxes was in 70s, when the highest bracket of wealth tax was 5% and when the highest bracket of income tax was 97.5% for income earned over 2LPA (graduated tax). Keep in mind that taxes are a mechanism to redistribute wealth and in 1970s being a "lakhpati" meant something, you could buy a top-line Mercedes for Rs. 1 Lakh, newly minted babus had a salary of around Rs 800 per month, and most importantly, almost 60% of the population fell below GoI's poverty rate as compared to current 26%.

So forget about 10LPA, if I was earning 3LPA in 1970's, the first thing I would do is to buy a top-of-the-line Mercedes, pay the necessary import duty, and then gladly pay 97.5% of my earnings above 2LPA as income tax to the government knowing fully well that the money would be used to provide food and health services etc to literally save the lives of 60% of the population who unlike me can hardly buy a full-days meal rather than a Mercedes. If I didn't think the government would spend this money properly, then I would donate this money to charity, open a school, or a hospital for those who need it in return for a tax deduction.

The point being, when 60% of the country can't get a good day's meal, these people are evading taxes because of their greed as not evading taxes won't "impact" their life of luxury in any significant way. Thinking that the "system" is forcing these people into corruption when 60% of the population is literally dying of malnutrition and hunger is at best highly exaggerated.

2. If a Govt Dept comes into licensing and production caps and the Industrialist has the capacity to earn more by producing more what happens? Easy, the Minister says you can underhand produce more. The profits from the excess are not shown in the books, but 50% is mine and 50% which you cannot keep in Indian banks you can send them through hawala outside to Switzerland. The Minister of course shares the loot with the entire dept.

ANY system (irrespective of how good or bad it may be) can be abused by those who are willing to work hard at abusing the system if the system is not willing to back-up its policies through ground level enforcement and deterrent punishment for abusers. The advantage in having a good system is that you need to spend less on enforcement - resources that can be directed to other more productive uses. The situation is even worse when those who are running the system are themselves corrupt as that means that the corrupt have a stake in maintaining a corrupt system and will continue to sustain and expand the flaws of the system instead of correcting them.

Production caps are not inherently bad: take illicit drug production cap for example, i.e you cannot wish away the drug problem by opening illicit drug production to all. Nor is licensing inherently bad, i.e you can not wish away car and airplane crashes by getting rid of pilot licenses and hence the corruption involved in obtaining driving and pilot licenses.

The key factor is whether those people who are running the system have enough common sense and thought to see that the system works for the people and not for themselves. No amount of policy making will fix that and unless you fix that no policy, no matter how good it is will work properly. Corrupt will find other ways to be corrupt and abuse the system to lesser or greater degrees as allowed.

the system has now not only made people corrupt but gone to the level of attracting bad characters also. The system is now being gamed for money. Root Cause: Stupid law on production caps.

If those who are running the system are corrupt (minister in your example above) it does not mean that the system is corrupt. It only means that the system has been setup by the corrupt to benefit themselves at the expense of common people. Get rid of these corrupt people, replace them with those who have sense to do the job right and rest assured even bad policies will start looking good.

3. When police pay is hardly enough to feed their family, the family itself pressures the cop to take a bribe. A better growth rate ensures pay rise. A cop getting 40k Rs/ month will be less tempted to accept a bribe than one getting 4K Rs/ month.
Corr: So economic growth==pay rise==reduction in temptation to take bribes and implement law==better traffic, better service==improvement.

Surely your assertion that policemen are not able to feed their family is exaggerated, because if this was the case media would be filled with reports of policemen committing suicides instead of farmers committing suicide for lack of livelihood. The fact is that its not hunger that is forcing these policemen into corruption, its their own greed combined with an administrative apathy that does not curtail such acts of corruption.

I agree, this is an important aspect. But then it will go nowhere if you don't change irrational laws or put up better pays for Govt employees.

Compared to the state of that most people in this country live in, government employees have a very good deal going for them. India is still a very poor country by most standards. Sure they are not making as much as those in MNC's, but then again government is not a profit making entity, government role is to benefit the population. If more money got rid of corruption, then you wouldn't have rich ministers taking millions in bribe. the cause of corruption is greed not need.

Removing the temptations and quirks within the system are of paramount importance along with punishment. By stressing on this solution you give the impression that all is well within the status quo of the system and only punishment is the deterrent.

Sir, I have been repeatedly arguing on this thread and in posts even before this thread started that what this country needs is a revolution in governance. The issue is not just corruption, but a problem in governance as a whole and hence the need for revolution. There are multiple systemic problems of governance and corruption is just one of them. If you want to wait a lifetime then sure argue for piecemeal policy changes. If you want to fix governance in 10 years time, then argue for a revolution. I favor the latter.

[Nesoj]

ICMR into the fray....... what next .... Yoga causes aids ??

Bitter 'lauki' juice can kill you, says panel
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 019732.cms
HYDERABAD: Do not drink your bottle gourd ('lauki' in Hindi, and 'sorakaya' in Telugu) juice if it tastes bitter, it could kill you. This recommendation comes after some investigation by an experts' committee.

The death of 59-year-old scientist, Sushil Kumar Saxena, a deputy secretary in the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) in New Delhi in June 2010, spurred an investigation into the effects of the consumption of bottle gourd juice that is bitter. A spate of other deaths relating to the same were also uncovered.

This led to the formation of an experts' committee on the 'Safety of consumption of vegetable juices with special reference to 'lauki.' The committee was constituted by the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) and held its second meeting in New Delhi on Sunday after it was formed this year in April.

The scientist, Saxena, had reportedly followed the advice of a baba who had advocated the merits of 'lauki' juice on his television programmes, stating that it was good for curing diabetes, among other health benefits. Saxena consumed the bottle gourd juice, as a mixture with bitter gourd (Karela in Hindi, and Kakarakaya in Telugu). He was hospitalised soon after but died prior to any treatment there.

His death was followed by reports of other deaths by the same cause. "Deaths from different parts of the country have been reported after some individuals consumed bottle gourd juice which was bitter. The advice would now be not to consume bottle gourd juice which is bitter," an ICMR scientist said.

The expert committee that was formed by the ICMR will submit a report on their findings to the government next month. These results came after ICMR scientist G S Toteja called for information from clinicians who had treated lauki toxity cases, in a prescribed format. Members of the general public who had observed adverse effects after the consumption of the juice were also asked to submit their observations. Researchers with information on the benefits or toxic effects of lauki also submitted their work. After the committee submits its report, a campaign to create awareness on the harmful effects of consuming bottle gourd juice, if it is bitter, will be initiated, it is learnt.

According to an ICMR scientist, further research is also being initiated on bottle gourd. Some national laboratories and universities are being identified for the purpose of conducting further research at the insistence of the ICMR.

Several 'gurus' and ayurveda practitioners recommend the consumption of bottle gourd juice. This advice is followed by people who make the gourd juice at home, in a bid to control diabetes. It has however been found that gourds, cucumbers, squash, pumpkins and melon may contain the chemical compound Tetracyclic Triterpenoid Cucurbitacin, which causes bitterness. This can be toxic and could prove fatal, especially if consumed in large doses.

[chetak]

^ Kumarswamy made allegations that Yeddyurappa tried to buy him with money. Yeddy challenged him to make the same allegation before Bhagwan Manjunath. Since no crime was committed courts cant rule in these matters.

This is the part of the combined congress jdu campaign to destabilise BJP sarkar in Karnataka, first with bhardwaj making all sorts of allegations and failing to prove them, then they sent quatroochi's son to buyout MLA's and turn this sarkar into minority, even that failed and now another round of allegations are being made. Nothing new, this constant barrage of allegations by congress and jdu will continue.

Kannada name is fine and all onlee.

How do we refer to you, saar?

[sumishi]

ICMR into the fray....... what next .... Yoga causes aids ??

Bitter 'lauki' juice can kill you, says panel...

Jeez! Are we going the Massa way! Leaves out of the unwritten "Bible of Demonizing Techniques" from Massaland??
Meanwhile, no allopathic medicines/vaccines kill you ever. If they do, it is God's will. No pharmaceutical company / doctor can ever be responsible.