The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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Manishw
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Manishw » 08 Jun 2011 00:18

Atri wrote:
No.. maulanas weren't there in midnight.. the maulana who was standing besides baba said the next day in haridwar that when he heard about the ruckus, he immediately reached the ramlila gound at 2 in night. but he was not allowed to reach near ramdev. he saw the police charge with his own eyes and was condemning it next day.


Yes I can vouch for that, saw it on tv while the Maulana said this.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 08 Jun 2011 00:26

Sanku wrote:
Muppalla wrote:Sanku ji, I am very pessimistic too as far as political results are concerned.


Yes, it seems we are heading for a bloodbath before meaningful changes can happen. The entrenched intrests are going for the kill.

I am aware of this, and there are reasons for me to know. I have been trying indirectly to warn for months now. Let the other thorns take care of the thorn. Kantake naiba kantakam. Move in later to remove these other thorns.
Last edited by brihaspati on 08 Jun 2011 00:49, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby ramana » 08 Jun 2011 00:27

So its a non-issue that can be put to rest. Thanks for the inputs guys.

Nothing beats the INC organised state forces. NDA could never command the state machinary/forces like INC does.


During the 1969 T-agitation, the leaders were afraid they would be shot in the crowds. Same time they were labeled cowards by govt side functionaries.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Manishw » 08 Jun 2011 00:51

ramana wrote:So its a non-issue that can be put to rest. Thanks for the inputs guys.

Nothing beats the INC organised state forces. NDA could never command the state machinary/forces like INC does.


During the 1969 T-agitation, the leaders were afraid they would be shot in the crowds. Same time they were labeled cowards by govt side functionaries.



Ramanna Ji, Is this the reason that the BJP acts like the way it does?

Keeping a low profile Etc.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 08 Jun 2011 00:53

ramana wrote:So its a non-issue that can be put to rest. Thanks for the inputs guys.

Nothing beats the INC organised state forces. NDA could never command the state machinary/forces like INC does.


During the 1969 T-agitation, the leaders were afraid they would be shot in the crowds. Same time they were labeled cowards by govt side functionaries.


ramana ji, power was handed over by the Brits with the "machinery" intact and the system unhurt. It is the machinery which controls how the controllers behave. The above-mentioned simply had the benefit of becoming the "borg" simply because of the much longer stay in power from the beginning.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sushupti » 08 Jun 2011 00:58

power was handed over by the Brits with the "machinery" intact and the system unhurt.


Right on spot!. Only person who tried to change that was VP Singh. I know many people who could never go beyond final "Interview round" in civil services exams multiple times due to their certain type of background.
Last edited by Sushupti on 08 Jun 2011 01:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby ramana » 08 Jun 2011 01:02

No don't make a saint out of VP Singh. He was false prophet.

UPSC was rigged to ensure only a certain type of personality gets into the civil and mlitiary services.

Bji, Same machinery delivered during the ealry Nehru-Mrs G/PVNR/NDA days.

So lets not blame the tools when its the handler is at fault.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 08 Jun 2011 01:05

To even begin to see the real reasons behind why Baba has to be treated as harshly as possible : look at the following:
http://www.morungexpress.com/columnists/62460.html
Thousands of years ago, Isaiah warned: “For You have abandoned Your people, the house of Jacob, because they are filled with influences from the east, and they are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they strike bargains with the children of foreigners” (Isaiah 2:6). Finally, Christians should never assume something is Christian just because it claims to be good, helpful or even healthy. “Prove all things,” the Apostle Paul writes. “Test the spirits,” writes the Apostle John. “See to it that no one misleads you,” Jesus said. If something claims to be Christian, put it to the Biblical test.

While there are some here in Nagaland who maintains that Yoga is harmless and can be intermingled with Christianity, Yoga–in any shape, form, or fashion–is alien to the Christian faith, foreign to Scripture. It must be rejected. The few scripture quoted above is enough to let us know the danger of being indulge or associate alien practice in our worship, social life, family and individual lives. It clearly demonstrate how deceptive pagan influences are, and how easy it is for a professing Christian to be conditioned, desensitized, deceived, and blinded into thinking that an occult, an alien practice such as Yoga can be Christianized. Indeed, we are witnessing fine-tuned deception at its very best these days. Time and time again, God warns the believer to avoid practices that originate in the occult and paganism. Yet, many professing Christians continue to avoid God’s warnings by relying on their feelings and emotions, side-tracking the issues, and twisting Scripture to suit their own needs. Sadly, they are playing into the hands of the one who overshadows, possesses, and darkens the doors of the New Age Movement; the one who the Apostle Paul warns us about in 2 Corinthians chapter 11.

If you do not vouch out now you would be saying like, “I totally avoid poisonous snakes, but it’s okay if my friend fools around with them because he has done it for years.” Experienced or not; mature or not, many people are bitten by poisonous snakes every year. Therefore, the best way to avoid being bitten by poisonous snakes is to stay completely away from them. What we, as Christians, should say is, “Yoga is an integral part of Hindu worship. Yoga is DANGEROUS to the SPIRITUAL welfare of the believer. Stay completely away from such - period!” “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight!” (Isaiah 5:20-21).

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sushupti » 08 Jun 2011 01:06

No don't make a saint out of VP Singh. He was false prophet.


I never said he was prophet. Neither i said he did it because of some kind of commitment towards India. He did it because of his personal grudges against dynasty.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sushupti » 08 Jun 2011 01:08


brihaspati
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 08 Jun 2011 01:09

ramana wrote:No don't make a saint out of VP Singh. He was false prophet.

UPSC was rigged to ensure only a certain type of personality gets into the civil and mlitiary services.

Bji, Same machinery delivered during the ealry Nehru-Mrs G/PVNR/NDA days.

So lets not blame the tools when its the handler is at fault.


ramana ji,
but each of them had their own walls that they ran into and broke their heads a bit. The machinery has been formed with a certain direction in mind, and sometimes when it coincides with our instantaneous objectives we feel that it is working for us. If it did deliver, we would not have "opportune" removal of these very same people - LBS, IG, etc.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Jun 2011 01:18

Manishw wrote:
CRS ,

This is one comment that I totally agree with.Many people blame congress and think that BJP is the solution.The problem is that Parliamentarians as a whole have abdicated their responsibility and my purely personnel opinion is that the BJP is more like a staged managed opposition in cahoots with the INC than anything else.If they would have played their part as a responsible opposition, this vacuum would not have been created in the first place and people like RD etc. need not have come out.The way they behave it seems that they are part and parcel of this problem and not the solution.
Good, someone is pointing out to a deeper issue in all of this. What is at stake is not the INC or the BJP view but a recognition that the entire political set of institutions, including the constitution have failed the country and is reaching a boiling point. The raison d'etre for these civil society protests and alternate leaders.

The BJP has never been gutsy enough to confront this core issue, even if they have recognized it. Their various attempts be it the NCRWC or the latest appeal to the "President" by Advani are firmly within the four walls of the institutional structures of the current polity. They have not yet shown the will to take the bull by the horns and do something about them. Even Narendra Modi's reforms have been within these institution walls, which continue to remain his biggest road block to reforms in his state. He manages to do some good in spite of these limitation is credit to his determination.

Identifying the roots of the problem are not that difficult. In fact Swami Ramdev, who many accuse of not being intellectual did so with absolute clarity in his interview with Shekhar Gupta. On the issue of the the roots of corruption, he said that when ethics and values are taken out of the education curriculum, is it any surprise that we have a largely unethical polity?

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Pranay » 08 Jun 2011 01:59

Sushupti wrote:
Sonam calls Baba Ramdev 'a sexist homophobe'

Baba Ramdev may have gained a few thousand more followers with his crusade against corruption but he's got some critics too. Sonam Kapoor, who has become the face of India International Jewellery Week, slammed Baba Ramdev on twitter recently.

She tweeted: 'I prefer Baa Baa Black Sheep over Baba Ramdev.'

And when a fan tweeted back to Sonam saying it's so rude, Sonam retorted: 'As rude as you should be to a sexist homophob!'

And Sonam isn't the only one. Jewellery designer and Hrithik Roshan's sister-in-law Farah Khan Ali is bored of Baba's antiques, it seems. 'Bored of Baba. A true believer does not run. He stands up 2 face d heat.Although I do believe d police should not have done what they did,' she tweeted.

http://www.rediff.com/movies/slide-show ... 110607.htm


Sushupti wrote:
I know what I am saying will be a no no here, but SRK and SK are nothing but TSP RAPE in Indian mufti, period. These idiots have as much in common with Indian nationhood as I do with the tea party Nazis in US.


CRamS, we don't want to lose you.


No point in getting exercised over the inane mumblings of the Bollywood bimbo/bimbette brigade...

A lot of termites getting flushed out of the woodwork...

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Sushupti » 08 Jun 2011 02:18

Like his mother Congress President Sonia Gandhi [ Images ], Rahul Gandhi [ Images ] is also said to be worked up about Baba Ramdev [ Images ] and the manner in which the government handled the issue, which led to the Bharatiya Janata Party [ Images ] getting a handle with which to beat the government with.


Sources say that the day after Ramdev was lifted from Delhi [ Images ] and escorted to Dehradun, Rahul met senior Congress leader Pranab Mukherjee [ Images ] to discuss with him the political situation in the country.

A source said that on Monday, Rahul had a over 40-minute meeting with Mukherjee where they had a 'serious' discussion, and covered a great deal of ground on the Ramdev operation, the manner in which the BJP was fanning the situation, what should be the approach of the party and the government, how the BJP and other forces should be countered and how the Congress should be activated on this issue.

A senior leader said that Rahul is known to discuss key political issues with Pranabda whenever the situation demands because of the latter's seniority and experience.

Mukherjee is seen to be a person with the correct political instincts. It's alleged that the prime minister was convinced that the situation could be salvaged through dialogue and he had insisted that Ramdev should not be arrested. Sources in the party also say that PM had asked Mukherjee to go to the airport.

A source said that the day after the meeting with Rahul, Mukherjee is learnt to have sent the All India [ Images ] Congress Committee media department Chairman Janardhan Dwivedi a long note on how the Congress should counter the BJP propaganda, and how the Congress should handle the situation.

Sources say it has been a matter of worry that the party and the government have been speaking in different voices, that the party has been divided on several issues, and perceptions giving the impression that the senior leadership has been in a state of total confusion.

Congress Working Committee member Anil Shastri's tweet criticising the police action against Ramdev has not gone down too well with the party leadership, with Dwivedi calling Shastri for an explanation.

Sources said that till as late as Sunday evening, senior leaders were giving a spin to the Ramdev story, by feeding the media with the line that the party had nothing to do with it and that it was a government initiative.

It was only after the Sunday evening meeting convened by Sonia Gandhi at her residence where top ministers and AICC general secretaries were present, that the confusion dissipated.

The leaders emerged from 10 Janpath with the clear message that the Congress president had pushed for tough action against Ramdev and that she was deeply upset and angry at the spectacle of four senior ministers going to the airport
, which looked like as though they had gone to receive him there.

Congress perceived the Ramdev show as the show of the BJP-Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and its cadres, plus Vishwa Hindu Parishand leader Sadhvi Rithambara sharing a dias with Ramdev is said to have further infuriated an already irate Sonia Gandhi.

A source said that only after she expressed her anger, the party took the decision to expose Ramdev's letter to the government, assuring that he would break the fast in the next three days.

It is learnt that while the government has enough information on Ramdev's money, business and financial dealings, various agencies are already on the job of stitching together the nitty-gritties of his business empire, and the role of his aide Balkrishnan who is a director in around 30 companies, most of which have links with Baba's trusts, and the companies owned by these trusts.

The fact that he is a Nepali citizen, has three passports and maybe even has a criminal background, are some of the issues which are being investigated further.

A source said that in the last three days since he was missing after the crackdown at Ramlila grounds, he is learnt to have been in touch with top lawyers, to put together the right line of defence and argument before the media.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/how-w ... 110608.htm

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby CRamS » 08 Jun 2011 02:22

Sushupti wrote:Congress perceived the Ramdev show as the show of the BJP-Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and its cadres, plus Vishwa Hindu Parishand leader Sadhvi Rithambara sharing a dias with Ramdev is said to have further infuriated an already irate Sonia Gandhi.


This is what led to the crackdown, make no mistake about it. Brilliant use of state power to crush an opposition party who could potentially have gained on an issue that has popular support.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Vashishtha » 08 Jun 2011 02:30

I dreamt once of raising a super secret sniper squad to take out congress top leadership.... what an AWESOME dream that was...... sadly i woke up. :(

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2011 02:47

And now the Yoga Baba has "forgiven" MMS after he expressed distress at the "unfortunate" events. What a farce!The "Hazare-dous" one now wants to defy the GOI and descend to Rajghat.Poor MKG! His soul must be tortured at events in this world using his name and legacy for convenience.I only wish that the relatives of the Mahatma come out strongly and condemn the abuse of Rajghat by all parties.Their silence is deafening.

PS:Baba's right hand,the Nepalese Acharaya's pathetic face on telly and his lament have turned one's pathos into bathos!
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby devesh » 08 Jun 2011 02:50

^^^
Philip, I thought your support of Russia had to do with pragmatism. now, I get the feeling you are a fellow comrade with nostalgia for Soviet Union and hatred of the "communals." :roll:

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby IndraD » 08 Jun 2011 02:51

HT-Digvijay justified in calling BR thug

Real face of HT

And how writer is being mauled on response...

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2011 02:58

Eeek! Me ain't no fellow traveller sir.This running dog of capitalism is as pragmatic as you thought.No grouse against the "communals" either.The "Anna-Baba and the 40 thieves" show is hugely entertaining.I am enjoying tremendously the viccissitudes of the venal .The death throes of the Monarchy have begun.Truly Shakespearean."Much ado about Nothing" what?

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby brihaspati » 08 Jun 2011 03:28

Philip wrote:And now the Yoga Baba has "forgiven" MMS after he expressed distress at the "unfortunate" events. What a farce!The "Hazare-dous" one now wants to defy the GOI and descend to Rajghat.Poor MKG! His soul must be tortured at events in this world using his name and legacy for convenience.I only wish that the relatives of the Mahatma come out strongly and condemn the abuse of Rajghat by all parties.Their silence is deafening.

PS:Baba's right hand,the Nepalese Acharaya's pathetic face on telly and his lament have turned one's pathos into bathos!


What? his soul hasn't turned already many times over and come back to the original direction after this latest episode? He wanted to dissolve the Congress in his last ever draft he was working on the night before he was assassinated - and the Congress continued happily ever after! You think he did not start turning then and there? Or say during the grand Emergency - his soul was motionless?

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Prem » 08 Jun 2011 04:14

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 34330.html
India's Government by Guru
New Delhi will get hijacked by more unaccountable godmen and activists, unless it stays true to its political system
Only an incorruptible man can beat a corrupt system. That's what many Indians have begun to think after witnessing a spate of graft scandals. Late last week, India's most popular yoga guru, Swami Ramdev, arrived in New Delhi to go on a hunger strike against corruption. His demands include the death penalty for corrupt officials and charging with sedition those who maintain illegal bank accounts abroad. Early Sunday morning, police ended the strike by evicting him and thousands of his followers from the grounds they had occupied.
Mr. Ramdev was not the first to alight on his idea for forcing the government's hand on corruption. In April, social activist Anna Hazare fasted for four days, before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh capitulated to his demand to enact antigraft legislation. The bill would establish an ombudsman who could prosecute any public official, but the ombudsman would neither be elected by India's citizens nor appointed by popularly elected officials. This philosopher-king would be selected by a committee of academic notables. Large swathes of India's NGO-dominated civil society support this bill, as does Mr. Ramdev.
The ruling Congress Party has contributed to this culture of extra-political politics. Congress president Sonia Gandhi constituted a National Advisory Council in 2004, an extraconstitutional body of civil society members like NGO activists, to help implement the party's agenda. T
India's government needs to return to the roots of its legitimacy, which is its constitution. The country is blessed with institutions and processes that can check abuses of power and balance priorities, creating an open political system that has served it well since independence. Unless Mr. Singh—the actual head of government—stays true to this system to tackle corruption, he will breed more figures like Mr. Ramdev, whose machinations are a recipe for political anarchy


( Friends of Congress and other Jaffars chime in )

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby negi » 08 Jun 2011 04:29

If the so called 'right wing' in India has any sense left , this is the right time to defeat the CON party in it's own game i.e. to support AH alongside BRD; in fact it would also make sense for RSS and Co. to join forces and support AH (INC's ploy to make it a AH vs BRD tussle has to be nipped in the bud); it will truly test the sanity of the Gobmint in question and expose the ones who are first to deride anything which is 'saffron' in colour.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Muppalla » 08 Jun 2011 04:41

negi wrote:If the so called 'right wing' in India has any sense left , this is the right time to defeat the CON party in it's own game i.e. to support AH alongside BRD; in fact it would also make sense for RSS and Co. to join forces and support AH (INC's ploy to make it a AH vs BRD tussle has to be nipped in the bud); it will truly test the sanity of the Gobmint in question and expose the ones who are first to deride anything which is 'saffron' in colour.


RSS and BJP supported AH. But they played the game of all politicians are bad. They only allows Medha Patkar types on the podium.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Virupaksha » 08 Jun 2011 05:23

These people have become so rootless, culture less and imitators of islamic and christian heritages (of what they it is) that they look down upon even dancing.

We are a culture where there is music and dance even during a death procession. We believe that the world itself is creating from the cosmic dance of nataraja.

These people are so bound by their kowtowing that they hate themselves. Of course these are the same people who hate vandemataram as well.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Surya » 08 Jun 2011 06:12

sigh will people stop all this christian this, english speaking that, secular this yada yada

The congress rabid dogs are nothing but a bunch of baseless power hungry cretins who need the dynasty to remain in power - thats all - and beyond that they can see nothing. and this emasculated lot will do whatever in their power - all civic sense be damned to ruin anyone opposing them

and somnath - seriously

since when does one has to have all the solutions to be allowed to protest??? conversely you know everything and have the soln to every damn problem and what have you done?? didly squat??

and since when did a gathering of 50000 people for less than 48 hrs become a public inconvenience??

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Airavat » 08 Jun 2011 06:20

Pranay wrote:
Sushupti wrote:Sonam calls Baba Ramdev 'a sexist homophobe'


No point in getting exercised over the inane mumblings of the Bollywood bimbo/bimbette brigade...

A lot of termites getting flushed out of the woodwork...


The film industry is quite divided on the issue actually:

Preity Zinta : “A dark and sad day for India. How dare the cops tear gas and lathi charge women, children and peaceful protesters against corruption? Not done.”

Vivek Oberoi : “Watching disturbing images of injured, crying women and elderly people. Violence is never a solution. What’s happened to our Gandhian legacy of ahimsa?

“Is this how the world's biggest democracy should behave? I’m very upset watching these images of brute force being employed on innocent protesters.”

Anupam Kher : “It is shocking to see how police and authorities have behaved with the crowds at Ramlila Maidan. It is unfair and undemocratic. Shame.”

Celina Jaitley :“Corruption cannot be battled by the hunger strikes of these self proclaimed leaders with a personal agenda. Every one cannot be Anna Hazare,” she tweeted.

Ram Gopal Varma :“Considering our great Indian mentality, more than Hazares and Ramdevs fasting, we might get better results if Shah Rukh Khan, Rajanikanth, Sachin Tendulkar and Katirna Kaif fast. Also, celebrities won’t mind fasting as anyway they are already into dieting.”

Shekhar Kapur : “50,000 Indian citizens are victims of police brutality for the crime of wanting to express their anguish at the corrupt system.”

Ranvir Shorey : “Shameful state of affairs. The government has turned Ramlila grounds into a mini-Tahrir. All on its own. The people want the government to be corruption-free. The government says it wants to be corruption-free. Where’s the need for tear gas?”

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby somnath » 08 Jun 2011 06:55

VikramS wrote:somnath: Have you ever been to Delhi and seen RamLila Maidan? nothing was held hostage.

The UPA was clearly scared at the moral support BR got from the masses. Period.

The right to protest and assemble peacefully is enshrined in the Indian constitution. To deny that is criminal.

There are people in the hospital paralyzed for life because the UPA sent their hounds.

Frankly I am sick of the so-called civil society and intellectuals. I also noticed that a people with Bengali surnames are grossly over-represented in it. Perhaps it is a reflection of the intellectual in-breeding in this group of people; any one not towing the line does not get a seat at the table.

People like RB, a rustic yadav from the Jatland of Haryana completely shake up the civil-society and its rotten roots. I frankly do not care of his other activities. My focus is on his right to protest, the popular support his cause has, and the government suppression of those rights.

Spent many (fantastic) years in Del (aside - IMO its the best city to live in India, minus its people :wink: )...

On the substantive point, the right to assemble and protest is integral to our rights...However, similarly, people have a right to their individual daily "freedoms", of not being inconveneinced...As someone who has lived in Del for many years, I know that a raly in ramlila, even with a fixed date/time/tenor, throws normal life out of gear for vast parts of the city...A congregation like this, indefinite, mass televised, with people pouring in all the time, AND a fast to boot (with all its emotional content) - means that the city will be off gear indefinitely (till the drama subsides)...No local govt can "ignore" it, irespective of the substantive issue..

Now, on the treatment of BR himself...If anything, the govt has gone from one end (of bending waaay backwards) to the other (seeming vendetta)...BR was out there secretly negotiating with ministers at 5 star hotels (btw, when did Claridges become 5 star?), he was received at the airport by 4 minsters (incl Pranab Mukherjee, no less) - so he was playing exactly the same games as a normal politico would....No issues with that...But if so, then BR would need to be held up to the same standards that we would subject a normal politico to..Hence,

1. What is his essential message? If its black money, what remedies does he have in mind?
2. What is his "hidden" agenda - something that all politicos are always scrutinised on..
and lastly,
3. His manner of execution is as inconveniencing to common life in the city as a bandh by the Left, or a dharna by Mulayam, or indeed a forced shutdown by Shiv Sena in Mum...

I have said this before, the way this govt has functioned for the last year or so has been pathetic, including on this issue...They have lost the plot, and there is absolutely no excuses for that...But the alternative is not BR-style surreptitious politicking..The alternative is to win back the "space"...And it will happen..Laloo thought his MY base is enough to paper over everything else - look where he is today...Small time politicians thought that they can get away with murder (of Priyadarshini Mattoo, or nitish Katara) - look where they are today...Duffers like MMJ and AS thought they can mess around with the IIXs - look what happened...The Left though that Op Barga can sustain them ad infinitum - look what happened...None of these required civic disruption ad infitnitum...

The engagement of "civil society" needs to be open, transparent and with cleear objectives...Then the right buttons can be pushed...If the objective is political, let the battle be fought at the political datum level...If it is on a specific issue, let it be fought at the relevant datum level...

Which is why I have a lot more time and respect for the likes of Arvind Kejriwal - they have a specific issue in mind, have a clear understanding, and hence are going about it with focus and transparency....(BTW, he isnt bengali, though he might be a Calcutta marwari though, I dont know :wink: )...BR on the other hand, does almot everything that we usually dislike (or like, for that matter) about politicians...Glib talk without substance, non-transparent agenda, back-channel, secret parley-ing with the powers-that-be, rhetoric to arouse mass emotions without clarity on the end state, and primacy of the messenger over the ostensible message...

That being the case, I would rather welcome him to fight it out politically, and let the good denizens of Delhi go about their lives in peace...Social peace is a prerequisite to economic progress, and whether its the Left, the Right or the ambiguous - we need to retain the same for ourselves...

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby somnath » 08 Jun 2011 07:15

CRamS wrote:SomnathJI,
Now one doesn't have to take everything BR says seriously, but surely, there are other ways of taking him on than the barabarity and hate that MMS has unleashed on him. As an aside, just look at how useless brain-dead filth like Sarah Palin is being feted and propped up in US by the establishment as a daughter of the soil, while in India, it is fashionable to not only denigrate, but bludgeon sons of soil into oblivion.

CRAMS-ji, rest of your post is a personal POV, I wont get into them, lest it derail the thread...But on the "bolded" part, I am sure you have missed quite a few things in India!

Laloo Yadav - as close to a "son of the soil" (though not brain dead by any measure) as you can get - was, and perhaps still remains, a star! Mamta Bannerjee, a "daughter of the soil" (in terms of brains, well, jury is out, but the very antithesis of a "bhadramohila"), is another star...BR himself, before his shindig in politics (by stealth), has been a huge star...So its not a "class divide" thing here at all...What is important is reagrdless of which "soil" people come from, if in politics they be subjected to the same standards as rest of the politicians...


Surya wrote:and somnath - seriously

since when does one has to have all the solutions to be allowed to protest??? conversely you know everything and have the soln to every damn problem and what have you done?? didly squat??

and since when did a gathering of 50000 people for less than 48 hrs become a public inconvenience??

One doesnt need to...And I said that the way the issue was tackled by GOI was pathetic..But to portray BR's activities as just mere innocent "protests" is either naive or fudge...Non-transparency, of the typical political type, has been the hallmark of this exercise...Starting from getting permission for a "yoga shivir", conducting back channel talks in 5 star hotels, receiving senior ministers..It reeks of a political game - no problem with that, but then, we need to demand political-type accountability from the sponsor...

I dont have answers, but as citizen I reserve the right to ask the questions to those who choose to disrupt life...And 50k people for 2 days? If that "fast" had gone on for 2 more days, mass televised, how many more people would have come in there? What would have been the mass emotion when TV flasshed min-by-min health inidicators of BR?

Again, all of the above is still justifiable on political grounds, IFF the principal has answers to the essential question, or at least a conception..After all, he is the one who's saying "do this, else I fast"...I want to know, what is "this" that he asking for? And how valid is that "this"....

In the meanwhile, here is a good proposal on how to realistically tackle the issue of black money...
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/the-c ... n/800793/0

GST has been pending fire for years now - latest because some state govts dont want to play ball...Its a pity, as it is widely expected to push growth up by 1-2% as well...Wonder why the good Baba isnt talking of solutions like these?
Last edited by somnath on 08 Jun 2011 07:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby negi » 08 Jun 2011 07:23

Somnath you are just arguing for the heck of it; what is a more pressing issue 'temporary inconvinience caused to dilli billis' vs 'rampant system corruption' ?
Moreover you dare to speak about inconvinience to the general public in India' ? Since when did our country become so sensitive to such inance thing ? Every year bchod commies end up doing more damage to the public property in Kerala and WB and all this when their fellow loonies are in power; likes of Mulayam , Loloo and Mayawati create a bigger nuisance than BRD when their kutta/billi gives birth to litters. So do away with this strawman argument about 'inconvinience to public'. Seriously this is not even funny.

As for your pet peeve as to why BRD is not proposing a solution; perhaps it would help if you see things in right context i.e. when the culprits are a part of the government itself it is neccessary to mobilise the general public else how can any sane person assume that the 'solution' in question would even be implemented by the powers who are complicit in the crime ? Finally ever been a part of political movement ? No one talks about a 'solution' from 30k feet level , it's all about getting the people's attention what should matter to sane people is the 'intent' ; we shall talk of implementation/solution later.
Last edited by negi on 08 Jun 2011 07:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Muppalla » 08 Jun 2011 07:30

negi wrote:what is a more pressing issue 'temporary inconvinience caused to dilli billis' vs 'rampant system corruption' ?


You should have thandi mind and think some alternative theories. The whole thing that is called as corruption could be erroneously interpretable accounting systemic situational paradigm.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby negi » 08 Jun 2011 07:34

Muppalla wrote:RSS and BJP supported AH. But they played the game of all politicians are bad. They only allows Medha Patkar types on the podium.

Podium yes; but not the effort in general; you see if INC's ploy is 'anything associated with RSS is bad' then RSS should overtly support AH . :D
Deny the mofos the luxury to play the 'good cop-bad cop'.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby somnath » 08 Jun 2011 07:39

negi wrote:Moreover you dare to speak about inconvinience to the general public in India' ? Since when did our country become so sensitive to such inance thing ? Every year bchod commies end up doing more damage to the public property in Kerala and WB and all this when their fellow loonies are in power; likes of Mulayam , Loloo and Mayawati create a bigger nuisance than BRD

I dont want this to degenrate into a "flame", but you missed my point...Yes, Laloo, Mulayam create nuisance of similar type as well - which is why we hold them accountable..We ask them questions on "what, why, and wherefors"...And we file cases against Left trade unions calling for bandhs, and get the latter banned in court..finally, we dont like the disruptive ways of Laloo, we throw him out of power, into complete oblivion....If BR wants to play the politico, by al means - I simply demand the same questions of him as I do to Laloo/Mulayam...

negi wrote:No one talks about a 'solution' from 30k feet level , it's all about getting the people's attention what should matter to sane people is the 'intent'

Sorry, but "intent" for what? People's "attention"? Has there been any letup in the "attentoin" of people on the issue of corruption? What have we been reading and talking about in the last 2 years, if its isnt corruption (ok, and crikcet World Cup)? And he is doing a fast, right? Do "this", or else..So what is this "this"? And how relevant is it as a solution? Isnt that a valid question?

negi
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby negi » 08 Jun 2011 07:57

somnath wrote:I dont want this to degenrate into a "flame", but you missed my point...Yes, Laloo, Mulayam create nuisance of similar type as well - which is why we hold them accountable

Where, when ? Is loosing an election a sign of holding someone accountable ? :rotfl:

..We ask them questions on "what, why, and wherefors".

:lol:

And we file cases against Left trade unions calling for bandhs, and get the latter banned in court..finally, we dont like the disruptive ways of Laloo, we throw him out of power, into complete oblivion....If BR wants to play the politico, by al means - I simply demand the same questions of him as I do to Laloo/Mulayam...

How many criminal cases is BRD associated with as against Lalloo/Mulayam or even Mayawati ? At least BRD does not have goondas wielding guns and other criminals threatening people to attend his movement nor is he distributing food from PDS or saris to entice the public.

Sorry, but "intent" for what? People's "attention"?

There is more to it , however yes getting attention is the first step forward for any issue of this magnitude.

Has there been any letup in the "attentoin" of people on the issue of corruption? What have we been reading and talking about in the last 2 years, if its isnt corruption (ok, and crikcet World Cup)? And he is doing a fast, right? Do "this", or else..So what is this "this"? And how relevant is it as a solution? Isnt that a valid question?

Did you pose a question to MMS or other loonies in the kitchen cabinet as to what the solution was ?
I see you are as usual trying to hide behind the guise of 'implementable solution' but hey isn't that something which GoI should be responsible for ? Have they disclosed to the public what they are doing to clean the mess ? Last I checked Mr. Integrity squeaked something on the lines of 'Yes there are some who have indulged in corruption but I am inncocent onlee' . :rotfl:

BRD is just a representative of lakhs of Indians who know things are not right and these people who attended his rally were not compelled to do so at least they know who they are supporting before hand unlike a surprise package who gets elected from some nook/corner of Assam. :rotfl:

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Raghavendra » 08 Jun 2011 08:32

Philip wrote:And now the Yoga Baba has "forgiven" MMS after he expressed distress at the "unfortunate" events. What a farce!


Why? What should ramdev have done in your opinion? Threatened to kill manu and sonia?


Philip wrote:I only wish that the relatives of the Mahatma come out strongly and condemn the abuse of Rajghat by all parties.Their silence is deafening.

Gandhi would be proud to see common people fighting against a corrupt government without resorting to violence while ashamed to see the party he was part of to have been turned into a mafia by sonia.


Philip wrote:PS:Baba's right hand,the Nepalese Acharaya's pathetic face on telly and his lament have turned one's pathos into bathos!

Are you sure you were not looking into the mirrror? Acharya looks normal to me, maybe there's something wrong with your pathetic face. Hopefully you will get a transplant soon.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Rudradev » 08 Jun 2011 08:38

The Elite Iskool chagrin at a lowly, unwashed Hindi speaking Yadava actually being allowed to attend meetings at five star hotels is absolutely palpable.

How dare he negotiate! On the one hand, how dare he "blackmail" with hunger strikes for the "instant" satisfaction of "absolute" demands, how dare he inconvenience the public :lol: by carrying out dharnas for "indefinite" periods of time. What a thug and a demagogue he is!

But on the other hand, how dare he negotiate in an attempt to resolve the issue behind the dharnas and hunger strikes! What a "political game player" he is!

The nerve of him... when he clearly has no "agenda" but is clearly enacting an "agenda" nonetheless!

As the Mainovadi arguments descend into a morass of self contradictions sure to confound all but the most Elite of Elite Iskool powers of comprehensun...one thing that emerges crystal clear is the disgust that a son of the soil should dare besmirch the hallowed lounges of the Elite Iskooled!

The greatest outrage of all is that Baba Ramdev dare attend "secret" (from whom?) meetings with VVIP ministers at 5 star hotels! (I wonder if govt ministers would have agreed to any humbler venue, accustomed as they are to generosity with the public's hard earned money?) Regardless, the Baba should have realised that such venues are rightfully out of bounds for all but those select few who profit handsomely from the Maino corruption raj and have the Elite Iskool degrees to justify it! Like any Satyagrahi who befouled the manicured lawns of a Whites Only Polo Club in the Good Old Days... Baba Ramdev got lathicharged, and deserved it!

Jinnah Sahab, fear not for moth eaten Pakistan... your truer sons are alive and well much closer to home.
Last edited by Rudradev on 08 Jun 2011 08:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Rudradev » 08 Jun 2011 08:46

Muppalla wrote:
negi wrote:what is a more pressing issue 'temporary inconvinience caused to dilli billis' vs 'rampant system corruption' ?


You should have thandi mind and think some alternative theories. The whole thing that is called as corruption could be erroneously interpretable accounting systemic situational paradigm.

:rotfl: Wah bhai what Comprehensun onlee!

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Singha » 08 Jun 2011 08:52

thankfully, the Yuvaraj Tiberius has stepped in to lead the legions, any Germanicus/Gaius Aurelius maximus types have been sidelined and he shall lead the legions from now on....I smell chances of a teutoborg forest here...time to rally the germanic tribes lol :oops:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 768515.cms

NEW DELHI: Undeterred by opposition attacks and in-house misgivings on the handling of Baba Ramdev's agitation, Congress is set to launch a strong offensive against protests from political rivals and civil society against the Centre.

The aggression was obvious in the way AICC dropped its defensive play to slam activist-icons Anna Hazare and Ramdev as "mukhotas" of BJP while defending itself on the issue of corruption. A countrywide campaign is also in the works, sources said.

The aggressive response has the sanction of the party leadership. Congress general secretary Rahul Gandhi is learnt to have discussed the political challenge with finance minister Pranab Mukherjee. The heir apparent, who is believed to be among those who frowned upon the red carpet welcome at the airport by Cabinet ministers, is learnt to be of strong opinion that the party should not blink in the confrontation with the Opposition.

It will spur the preparations already underway for taking on not just Ramdev but also other activists. "Enough of mollycoddling," said a union minister familiar with the leadership's thinking.

Congress is working on a detailed campaign to defend Centre's record on combating corruption and to argue that the Opposition charge was politically motivated and sadhus and civil society icons were being used as a front.

One powerful prong of the campaign is the allegation that the civil society campaign is a conspiracy of communal forces to hijack power after having lost successive elections. The allegation which was made on a low key note when Anna Hazare camp pitched tent at Jantar Mantar in April, has turned into a full-blown campaign.

The presence of Sadhvi Rithambara and Uma Bharati, icons of Ayodhya campaign, alongside Ramdev at Ramlila Maidan is cited as substantiation of the "communal conspiracy" charge.

On Sunday, parliamentary affairs minister Pavan Bansal had claimed that the midnight raid on Ramdev's camp was meant to preempt a threat of communal flare-up because of the presence of Rithambara at the protest venue abutting the Walled City.

The thread was picked by AICC general secretary B K Hari Prasad and spokesman Manish Tewari. Hari Prasad said Ramdev's protest carried the risk of communal conflagration. Tewari, who spoke to reporters in detail, said the BJP offensive was meant to divert attention from Samjhauta blasts in which new evidence of saffron terror was tumbling out.

Congress is set to launch rallies across states to return the BJP fire. The Opposition is already holding protest fasts to ensure that the Ramdev issue, linked to the claim of the fight to bring back black money, did not move out of focus.

The government, meanwhile, is releasing documents to detail its work on the graft front, starting from checking tax evasion globally to retrieving black money stashed in banks in foreign countries.
Last edited by Singha on 08 Jun 2011 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

sum
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby sum » 08 Jun 2011 08:54

Tewari, who spoke to reporters in detail, said the BJP offensive was meant to divert attention from Samjhauta blasts in which new evidence of saffron terror was tumbling out.



On Sunday, parliamentary affairs minister Pavan Bansal had claimed that the midnight raid on Ramdev's camp was meant to preempt a threat of communal flare-up because of the presence of Rithambara at the protest venue abutting the Walled City.

Sigh, we truly are a banana republic.
Last edited by sum on 08 Jun 2011 09:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Postby Venkarl » 08 Jun 2011 09:02

Tiwari is such an idiot that whenever I see him I feel like smacking his face hard, but my TV would be gone....


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