India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby chackojoseph » 01 May 2011 19:38

You don't know French then. They will sell them irrespective of what others think. Its a great country. it will stick its neck out for anyone it thinks is oppressed or has money. Look at Indian nuclear blast, they supported. Look at Mistral sale to Russia, they wanted $$$. They thumbed US and Europe for both of it.

aditya.agd
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 28 Apr 2010 00:37

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby aditya.agd » 01 May 2011 19:43

I think the moderators should act on offensive posting by Rakall. Rakall appears to be a CIA agent and american lobbyist. He appears to be the guy who is sitting in Washington DC and claiming to know everything about Indian babus.... India is not Brazil to be pressurised by America ....

America is a great land, but American foreign policy cannot be a real partner to anybody in the world. It's foreign policy is driven by short term gains. America has bombed every country which it supplied weapons to. For example - Iraq, Iran, Bosnia, Pakistan, Libya, etc etc

India should never buy any offensive system from America except full, unconditional Technology Transfer... Americans should know that they are dealing with a principled state and a 1.2b people

IAF and GOI have done a great service to India by going by service requirements.

Mahendra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4409
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 17:20
Location: Chronicling Bakistan's Tryst with Dysentery

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Mahendra » 01 May 2011 19:46

LOL, CIA agent! trying to lobby for LM on BRF :rotfl:

And I thought some of the posts in Nukkad and Cricket thread were juvenile

MarcH
BRFite
Posts: 122
Joined: 22 Feb 2009 10:32

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby MarcH » 01 May 2011 19:47

One aspect that usually get's ignored is delivery schedules. Local assembly in India, quick delivery of the first batch. Some long lead items have to be ordered a considerable time (read years) before the delivery date. Eurofighter produces 60 airframes a year, Dassault 14. Fat chance they double their production rate for a brief period of time just to dop it again shortly after the local assembly in India kicks in.
Which brings me to the next issue. BAe systems just failed with grandesse to establish a local assembly line in Saudi Arabia. Now I raise doubts how Dassault with it's small manufacture manages to double it's output, and at the same time train Indian workforce (where are those guys coming from, with HAL hard pressed to deliver MKI's ?) and setup the riggs and stuff in India ?

aditya.agd
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 28 Apr 2010 00:37

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby aditya.agd » 01 May 2011 19:48

does anyone have details on 643 checklist items that IAF subjected these 6 aircrafts to?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 01 May 2011 19:49

CIA Agent :rotfl: what are CIA agents doing on forums :lol: BAN CIA Agents :twisted:

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 01 May 2011 19:55

D Roy wrote:Two C-130s already operate in China on civilian duties.


they must be having camera's named Chipanda spotter...which shouts out every time anyone stares at the bum... :rotfl:

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 01 May 2011 19:56

aditya.agd wrote:I think the moderators should act on offensive posting by Rakall. Rakall appears to be a CIA agent and american lobbyist. He appears to be the guy who is sitting in Washington DC and claiming to know everything about Indian babus.... India is not Brazil to be pressurised by America ....

America is a great land, but American foreign policy cannot be a real partner to anybody in the world. It's foreign policy is driven by short term gains. America has bombed every country which it supplied weapons to. For example - Iraq, Iran, Bosnia, Pakistan, Libya, etc etc

India should never buy any offensive system from America except full, unconditional Technology Transfer... Americans should know that they are dealing with a principled state and a 1.2b people

IAF and GOI have done a great service to India by going by service requirements.


Click on link:

Info on Rakall as CIA agent

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 01 May 2011 20:02

If EADS is offering us partnership in Eurofighter program then its a good value for money , every time Eurofighter sale takes place we get to produce components and mint money out of it , considering Typhoon is still a viable fighter that would sell internationally for the next 15 years , it would bring in dollar for every dollar we spend on this deal plus generate jobs locally for long term beyond the MMRCA deal.

May be 10 years from now Europe might think building the Eurofighter at HAL complex in India is more profitable and makes it more competitive in export market compared to building in Europe , the possibilities are immense.

Remember in the same period Eurofighter will compete with Rafale , Su-35 and Superhornet and making its more competitive will just improve its export prospects.

As a fighter its quite capable , granted right now its not mature as Rafale in A2G arena or perhaps lacks a good AESA but this is just a passing phase , 5 years from now we will have a better Eurofighter then what we have now.
Last edited by Austin on 01 May 2011 20:05, edited 1 time in total.

Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gaur » 01 May 2011 20:03

aditya.agd wrote:I think the moderators should act on offensive posting by Rakall. Rakall appears to be a CIA agent and american lobbyist.

Bang on the target! I was always suspicious of how Rakall was able to scoop out so much info from DRDO folks during Aero India 09. Do you think any mango SDRE would have been able to do that, hain ji? Surely he was a American spy infiltrating the DRDO and using BR forums as a sort of Hawala channel to pass the info to his American masters. This makes so much sense.

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 01 May 2011 20:05

chackojoseph wrote:You don't know French then. They will sell them irrespective of what others think. Its a great country. it will stick its neck out for anyone it thinks is oppressed or has money. Look at Indian nuclear blast, they supported. Look at Mistral sale to Russia, they wanted $$$. They thumbed US and Europe for both of it.


I like French for it, they are highly independent, they are piskology capital of the world...if jacques derrida does public discourse on meaning of life and Britney puts up a Hot show in stadium...there will be equal crowd for both on same day...

I would like to see what India does when it starts selling LCA and variants, and competing in world market...We can still control French if choose them, than controlling them when we don't...

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby chackojoseph » 01 May 2011 20:06

Ban Rakall, the chorus is growing :rotfl:

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby chackojoseph » 01 May 2011 20:10

manum wrote:We can still control French if choose them, than controlling them when we don't...


What and get an embargo on perfum de toilet? :rotfl:

No Sir. Only way to control french is to March your soldiers in. They will easily surrender. :rotfl:

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 01 May 2011 20:13

good point there Austin.. it would not be easy for a single country to actually do a ToT on few IP rights and products, where as a group of company/country, it can be easily negotiated with in this case where the driver is the customer. Eurofighter made in Inda would be the future, if they really put in serious efforts for upping the A2G ante, and reduced the costs like hell. Making in it India would also add the factor to bring the costs way down.

Rafale is not going to down easily.. it is going to be a big fight. A complete transfer of manufacturing facilities to desh, is one thing that would be hard to ignore.

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 01 May 2011 20:18

chackojoseph wrote:
manum wrote:We can still control French if choose them, than controlling them when we don't...


What and get an embargo on perfum de toilet? :rotfl:

No Sir. Only way to control french is to March your soldiers in. They will easily surrender. :rotfl:



so all that red faced gussa wussa on libya was just a show off :cry: ...I thought they are serious...Ahh MMRCA indeed, they'll leave the war on USA and tail when they get the contract...Now i know why Germany stayed away, they know the french..."saale nautanki"...

RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5180
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby RoyG » 01 May 2011 20:23

rakall wrote:Bull shit !!!

What stupid rulebook? What the heck "cant accept any limitation (due to CISMOA) on ToT? What crap?

Cant you just see that the great strategic partnership between the two biggest deocracies of the world which are natural partners is more important than all these stupid rulebooks & limitations?


This reminds me of a gentle breeze causing ripples in a fetid scum laden pond...

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 01 May 2011 20:37

RoyG wrote:
rakall wrote:Bull shit !!!

What stupid rulebook? What the heck "cant accept any limitation (due to CISMOA) on ToT? What crap?

Cant you just see that the great strategic partnership between the two biggest deocracies of the world which are natural partners is more important than all these stupid rulebooks & limitations?


This reminds me of a gentle breeze causing ripples in a fetid scum laden pond...


OT,
but you could have imagined a pond bit cleaner, lighter...It would have helped to create few ripples...I mean "breez in scum laden pond" what it'll do there, except carrying the smell?
Last edited by manum on 01 May 2011 21:14, edited 1 time in total.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11209
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 01 May 2011 20:45

Hai rakall,
Ye tune kya kiya? Tu CIA agint nikla?
Itna bada dhoka !

Kya rakall ka full form raymond kallifornia davis to nahi?

Ban rakall.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 01 May 2011 20:50

there used to be a informative site on EF: eurofighter.starstreak.net which also had a forum with considerable membership.
but just like certain areas of the EF's capabilities being unfunded, this site too seems to be dead...not sure how long ago it folded up.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 01 May 2011 20:53

Any ideas from recent news that the EF is incapable of A/G ops needs to be reconciled with the fact that the IAF is happy with the Typhoon - and that includes the weapons firing tests.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 01 May 2011 21:06

Shiv, I believe the typhoon can just about fire one paveway weapon now and self-guide it. earlier it could release the weapon but a tornado had to guide it. the next step is more spooky - releases multiple weapons and guide them in parallel (not sure how its done but tornado is said to be able to do it). makes sense I suppose with weapons being released from upto 50km away now, you better release multiple weapons in the first pass and get home ... not turn for a second pass when defences are hunting for you.

perhaps they showed IAF what it could do now, and also the roadmap for future.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shukla » 01 May 2011 21:15

Rafale radar

The production model AESA RBE2 radar with active electronically scanned array (AESA) antenna from Thales in France has been validated on the Rafale omnirole combat aircraft. Dassault Aviation officials confirmed that, based on a program of flight tests, all aspects of the AESA RBE2 radar's performance comply with the technical specifications of the roadmap contract, awarded by the French Ministry of Defense–Defense procurement Agency (DGA).

The AESA RBE2 with an active array antenna will infuse the Rafale with: an extended range for compatibility with the latest-generation, long-range missiles and the ability to detect low-signature targets; higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership and no maintenance required on the active array for 10 years; and extended waveform agility, enabling the acquisition of submetric synthetic aperture radar (SAR) imagery while increasing the radar's resistance to jamming.

Thales engineers have begun series production of equipment for installation on the aircraft under Tranche 4 of the Rafale program. Dassault Aviation will deliver the Tranche 4 aircraft to the French Air Force in 2013, at which time the Rafale will become the only European combat aircraft to benefit from the operational advantages of AESA radar technology, reveals a representative.


http://www.militaryaerospace.com/index/ ... itary.html

rakall
BRFite
Posts: 798
Joined: 10 May 2005 10:26

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby rakall » 01 May 2011 21:20

Gagan wrote:Hai rakall,
Ye tune kya kiya? Tu CIA agint nikla?
Itna bada dhoka !

Kya rakall ka full form raymond kallifornia davis to nahi?

Ban rakall.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Actually it was partly my mistake.. I should have put a sarcasm alert on that post

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16997
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rahul M » 01 May 2011 21:21

shyamd wrote:Regarding Rafale here are some interesting facts:

. Dassault says it is ready to fit Rafale out with all options, and particular the AESA RBE2 radar built by Thales. The French air force’s Rafales won’t have the radar until 2012. The radar’s range is 50% greater than that of the passive radars on French Mirage 2000s currently in service in Abu Dhabi.

what on earth is a passive radar when it comes to fighter radars ?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 01 May 2011 21:23

Raytheon still has a hold on us for the A2G stores with its various pounder GBUs and JDAMs, that EF2K relies on. So, if the khans get those support systems and awacs makes it interesting to see how much they are happy to supply. Meanwhile, DRDO's own JDAM must take shape that can be fired from mMRCA (source coded).

--

passive arrays perhaps [receiver].
Last edited by SaiK on 01 May 2011 21:29, edited 1 time in total.

Jamie Boscardin
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 71
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 21:56

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Jamie Boscardin » 01 May 2011 21:25

rakall wrote:Bull shit !!!

What stupid rulebook? What the heck "cant accept any limitation (due to CISMOA) on ToT? What crap?

Cant you just see that the great strategic partnership between the two biggest deocracies of the world which are natural partners is more important than all these stupid rulebooks & limitations?


Let me reverse and read it.
The great partnership of the 2 largest democracies and natural allies in this century was bogged down by US insistence on signing binding clauses pushed via CISMOA etc. Inspite of the intense buying from India and its intentions of enlarging the strategic partnership by buying left and right western hardware, the short-sightedness of the policy makers has put a big shame on this partnership... The onus now shifts back to US on how they deal with a strategic ally on an equal footing.
:)

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13109
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 01 May 2011 21:34

GD what Paveway series ? The Paveway IV which Raytheon is offering to the RAF has dual modes i.e. GPS+LG so I presume engaging multiple targets won't be an issue as GPS mode would make a truly fire and forget munition.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 01 May 2011 21:35

Unkill can shut off gps in a jiffy! :twisted:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 01 May 2011 21:42

negi sir, http://rpdefense.over-blog.com/article- ... 16784.html

GPS no longer means you program a coordinate either on the ground or update from within the launch ac and then just drop it within its range, way back in 2005 sher khan was playing with engaging moving targets with JDAMs.

btw the GLONASS is now just short of 3 sats to give worldwide 24x7 coverage and these too would have been onside if that russian rocket carrying 5 sats had not fallen into pacific due to a error in calculating the fuel needed.

http://www.terradaily.com/news/miltech-05zg.html

Boeing F-A-18 Super Hornet Engages Moving Targets with JDAM


St. Louis MO (SPX) Jul 27, 2005
Boeing has successfully demonstrated the capability of a single F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to engage moving land targets during a test at Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake, Calif.
"This is just another step in our efforts to develop an all-weather multiple moving target engagement capability for the Super Hornet," said Chris Chadwick, Boeing vice president for F/A-18 programs.

"We plan to expand on this effort, to meet the goals of precision multiple moving target engagement envisioned in Sea Power 21."

Real-time targeting updates were accomplished using the aircraft's existing Digital Communications System (DCS) to communicate over a standard military link to a 2,000-lb.

Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) equipped with a UHF weapon data link module. The weapon data link module included a miniature radio transceiver that transmitted link status back to the aircraft during weapon free-fall.


As a result, the F/A-18 weapon system successfully guided the inert bomb to within two meters of the moving target - close enough to destroy most moving targets.

In the guided release demonstration, the position of the moving target, a radio-controlled panel-side truck, was continuously tracked by the Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared (ATFLIR) sensor onboard the Super Hornet. Periodic target updates were provided to the JDAM throughout the weapon's flight to the target.

During a previous flight, two-way UHF link connectivity was verified to 40 miles between a ground-mounted JDAM and aircraft in flight. The UHF weapon data link exceeded expectations in maintaining communications between the F/A-18 aircraft and the JDAM during weapon deployment.

Further demonstrations of the Super Hornet's future precision engagement capabilities are planned for later this year and 2006.
Last edited by Singha on 01 May 2011 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 01 May 2011 21:46

Singha wrote:there used to be a informative site on EF: eurofighter.starstreak.net which also had a forum with considerable membership.
but just like certain areas of the EF's capabilities being unfunded, this site too seems to be dead...not sure how long ago it folded up.


It's still there, you just forgot exact site address... :P

http://typhoon.starstreak.net/

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13109
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 01 May 2011 21:50

GD yes real time updates for moving targets but one time dial for stationary ones ?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 01 May 2011 21:55

yes I guess so

the moving target ability earlier was restricted to TV guided (old kit like maverick) or laser guided bombs only. what it does is give JDAM equipped planes a chance to reuse the jdam on moving targets too - making it omnirole :)

btw manum thanks for the EF forum link : I read in that mrca thread that OSF-NG and a idea of distributed fighters merging their radars to create a 'virtual' huge aesa radar is being looked at.
Last edited by Singha on 01 May 2011 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8140
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Indranil » 01 May 2011 21:56

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:shiv sir, the planes engines do not lug the weight around except in the case the altitude gain. The lift does that. The thrust produced by the engine in leveled flight is proportional to the drag. And in that repect, I suspect that at transonic sorties the Su-30MKI will be 1.5 times the MMRCAs.

Anyways even if you considered the differential in fuel consumption, it will not make up for differential of around 100 million between the life-cost of a typical medium and heavy weight fighter.


Indranilji - lift=drag. So if the mass to be kept in the air is higher the lift required is higher and the drag is higher.

I did not understand the 100 million life cost differential comment. What units are you talking about and where did the figures come from.


'ji' ka istemaal karke mujhe aur sharminda na kare.

Induced drag is only one form of drag and it is proportional to the weight but multiplied by fraction much less than 1.

The way it I got too that 100 million figure was as follows:

It is often touted that as a rule of thumb cost of operating an aircraft over its lifetime is approximately 3-4 times it's acquisition cost. I am just taking it as 3. Therefore a the total cost of acquiring and operating a plane is approximately 4 times the acquisition cost

Going by today's standards:
heavy fighter (acquisition cost of around 100 million) : total cost is around 400 million
medium fighter (acquisition cost of around 70 million) : total cost is around 280 million
low fighter (acquisition cost of around 40 million) : total cost is around 160 million

So you see that the difference in operating a class of fighter against the next class is roughly 120 million.

This 120 million is is difficult to account for for the difference of cost of fuel on the Rafale/EF vis-a-vis Su-30.

Added later: Nah! I had got the striked out part wrong. I was only thinking from a drag point of view. Just think in terms of 'work' (as in physics) done and it becomes clear. Keeping a heavier plane level also needs more work (lift) which has to be provided by the thrust.
Last edited by Indranil on 02 May 2011 03:02, edited 1 time in total.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8140
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Indranil » 01 May 2011 21:58

Also, I would love Rafales on our IAC-2. It seems they have sortie rates of 300/per year/per aircraft from day one (as advertised on dassault's website).

Karan, thank you for your posts.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby arthuro » 01 May 2011 22:00

Here is an article about rafale and typhoon confrontation.

Enemy Brothers

Air&Cosmos - June 2010


Since birth, both were scheduled to compete. The wrestling (commercial) which has now engaged the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale on the international scene has its roots in the early 80s, while Europe is seriously considering a joint development of a new multinational European fighter aircraft. France, United Kingdom and Germany are the main actors in a drama that will last many years. These last two countries, which have already collaborated in the Panavia consortium for the development of the Tornado are looking to replace a portion of their tactical fleet. For its part, France is trying, too, to have a fighter that can replace almost all of its combat aircraft. But from the beginning, the situation appears complex, whereas the English call for an air superiority aircraft class 11-12 tonnes, Paris argues for a device of only 9 tons. Moreover, the problems of industrial shares weigh down the prospects of cooperation including France, whose aeronautical companies ardently defend their plans to support the maintenance of their skills. In 1985, France announced it will develop alone its future combat aircraft. For their part, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain will start the Eurofighter program. While France wants to start building a really multirole aircraft, the nations in the Eurofighter consortium finance the development of a superiority aircraft, designed for air to air combat. To date yet, the 'Typhoon has only very limited air-ground capabilities compared with the Rafale.

More thrust for the Typhoon

On paper, the Typhoon has some undeniable advantages: more powerful than M88, its two reactors give it a better weight/thrust than the Rafale. According to the Eurofighter pilots, this additional power would be particularly appreciable during simulated combat below 20,000 ft, where the density of air allows the engines to be fully expressed. In the battle beyond visual range (BVR), the Typhoon also has an greater "extension" than the Rafale. This is because of the the physical characteristics of the radar, which antenna "sees" futher than the RBE2-PESA, but also because of the dynamic performance of the American missile AIM-120 AMRAAM . Designed exclusively for medium-range interception, it certainly does not have the versatility of the Mica, but it is superior in terms of range. Facing a Rafale, these theoretical advantages, however, must be nuanced.

In BVR combat, although the lengthening of the radar and missiles of the Typhoon are superior, the french Rafale fighter's radar signature is, according to many pilots, much less important than the Eurofighter's one. It is therefore an asset. Even better: the sensors fusion which enjoys the Rafale is also a crucial advantage in BVR combat, because it offers the pilots a much better understanding of the tactical situation during combat, and this, 360 degrees around the aircraft.
Once the "merge" is reached (when BVR combat turns into short-range), the Rafale has still strong chances of victory against the Typhoon. In the opinion of French pilots who have confronted the European aircraft, it's above all the quality of the electric flight controls [FBW] of the French fighter who makes the difference. In dogfight, Rafale can quickly point its nose to the threat, while less degrading its energy than the Eurofighter does. And this partly because the maximum angle of attack of the Rafale is "clamped" around 300, which allows it to evolve in a controlled manner even at low speed.
This difference in terms of maneuverability is also illustrated by the position of the canard on the two planes: placed well in front of the fuselage on the Typhoon, they play the role of an additional control surface used to "steer" more quickly the nose of the plane to take the incidence.
Conversely, the Rafale ducks are located very near the delta wing and are used primarily to pick up the airflow to slow up the loss of lift on the wing, thus giving the pilot a full control of the aircraft at low speeds.

A first indisputable skirmish

The Armée de l' Air has been able to experience this superiority in dogfight in September 2009, during an exercise organized by the French and British headquarters, during a deployment on the Solenzara airbase in Corsica .
Few days , the EC-1/7 stands next with the Royal Air Force transformation squadron on typhoons. The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons , they plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and at 350 knots. Whatever. The 'Provence' squadron takes up the gauntlet ... The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position. However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air-to-air, the "Provence" pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat.

Nine wins, one defeat

This initial result is not a fluke: the two next passes end also to the advantage of the Rafale. In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter. A nice demonstration of force that inspires the pilots the following moral: without mastery, power is nothing ... It is however an area where the Typhoon is victorious: the one of exports. While the Rafale is still looking for a first client, the Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi Arabia and Austria, and remains opposed to the Rafale in Switzerland and India.


pictures at link post n° 1513 :

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page101

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 01 May 2011 22:13

those F22 pix captured by the rafale tv channel are classic. reminds me of a smaller but tough dog who goes into cave of big dog, kicks its behind hard and then escapes before the big dog can turn around and bite :rotfl: I like that!

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13109
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 01 May 2011 22:13

^ Yes yes we are for Rafale onlee; as it is I am all for avoiding any critical item purchases from consortium which have stakeholders from Unkil or it's munnas and UKstan is munna#1. These very guys who are now frothing at the mouth for the MRCA tender at one time pulled a paki on us not once but twice ; first was when they denied us Sea King spares under Unkil's pressure and second time they were not ready to sell the FA2 with the Blue Vixen radar. The French are relatively the least paki of the lot and they bring in a lot more to the table in terms of the nuke deal; SNECMA consultancy and more importantly M2K upgrade can be re-negotiated with such a huge order for Rafale.
Last edited by negi on 01 May 2011 22:19, edited 1 time in total.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36409
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 01 May 2011 22:19

So it is all boiling round to M88-4 & RBE-2AESA.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 01 May 2011 22:29

DGA Finances OSF NG, SPECTRA complement, Laser guidance and links RBE2 AESAS 2 to Meteor.
December 21 2006 at 5:28 PM
No score for this post Anonymous (Login sampaix)
La Grande Armee (France)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DGA Finances OSF NG, SPECTRA complement, Laser guidance and links RBE2 AESA 2 to Meteor.

Extract from the Docuemt No 3367 of the French Assemblee Nationale reveals in details what was only notified previously.

DGA have used their financial capabilties of switching from R&D to full Programmes fundings in order to push FURTHER developements of the Omnirole Rafale equipement.

This new €400 million contract concerns the new generation OSF which will see "strongly increased performances, a Missile Launch Detector (DDM) complement of SPECTRA and the RBE2 AESA radar.

Developed primarily with 1990 technologies, with a contract awarded in 1991, OSF is an Air-to-Air dedicated Optronic system later adapted to be used in a secondary A2G role.

The technologies used at the time were groundbraking.

OSF being the first such system in the West to work on the 3-5 micron band, and allowed for the first time detection, tracking and engagement of multiple targets in A2A BVR using the MATRA MICA (MBDA).

It does so totally passively with a fair amount of weather independency even with the radar switched off and is slved to the MICA IR seeker for increased performances.

SEE:DATE:05/05/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Tests begin on Rafale optronics
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/19 ... onics.html

OSF was not ordered with the second tranche of Armee de l'Air Rafale F-2s, the first tranche of which were delivered with it to 1/7 Vendee Squadron at St Dizier.

The first Official reason given by the Assemblee in previous documents being electronic components Obscolescence (due to long developement times), this Obsolescence problem have caused at least one contract to be delayed.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... ract+.html

But now it appears that as for most of the aircraft avionics and systems, this problem is resolved with developements of new generation avionics and was related to the F-1 standard in particular. (Rafale Ms).

This Document mentions developement slipages together with financial constraints as the reason for not ordering more than the 38 OSF units delivered or already in service with the AdA.

Being "Mission Specific" these 48 OSF "Mk1" will be used indiferently by the aircrafts of the 48-tranche order or the following 59.

As disclosed in the no2572 Assemblee Nationale Document, DGA have been long negotiating this contract with the industrials as late as Oct 2006.

To finish it is noticeable that this "roadmap" specifies the industrialisation, production readiness and production of these equipements for the year 2012, ready for the service entry of the European METEOR long-range AAM.

This together with the equivalent "roadmap" for the DGA-lead Korrigan programme on GaN technology (radar band X/Optronics), the 90 Kn M-88 ECO engine and the futur Omnirole Rafale looks like totally different beast.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 01 May 2011 22:33

SaiK wrote:Unkill can shut off gps in a jiffy!


Those are encrypted GPS for military applications that Uncle does not share with any one excepts its close NATO allies.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests