India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Apr 2011 16:23

folks, drop the flamewar-NDTV-libel discussion already !

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 28 Apr 2011 16:28

more coverage from The Hindu...

U.S. disappointed over IAF deal, but respects process

With its fighters losing out in the bid for India’s multi-billion dollar deal, the U.S. on Thursday said it was “deeply disappointed” over it but was “respectful” of the procurement process.

In a statement in New Delhi, Ambassador Timothy Roemer said he had been assured at the highest levels in the Indian government that the procurement process for the fighters “has been and will be transparent and fair”.

“We are reviewing the documents received from the Government of India and are respectful of the procurement process. We are, however, deeply disappointed by this news,” Mr. Roemer said.

He said he had been personally assured at the highest levels of the Indian government that the “procurement process for this aircraft has been and will be transparent and fair.”

Remaining convinced that the U.S. offers its defence partners around the globe the world’s most advanced and reliable technology, the envoy said, “We look forward to continuing to grow and develop our defence partnership with India.”

I must say i'm quite surprised to see the UPeeA governmint have the balls to let the Americans remain out (and I hope they don't prove me wrong).

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Apr 2011 16:32

Vasu wrote:more coverage from The Hindu...

U.S. disappointed over IAF deal, but respects process

They don't really have a choice now, do they?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Apr 2011 16:42

A.K.Antony gains sainthood

jai · Post by **jai** » 28 Apr 2011 17:24

I tip my hat to St. Anthony !! May he inherit the crown and throne - and pretty soon !!

This is such a welcome development, I am getting my lungi out for the dance, but as they say nothing happens till it actually happens so I will keep the lungi ready till the contract gets signed - preferably Rafale but equally happy with EF (would like to see full program partnership) hope we ask for and get the right to use our own choice of weapons, spares - if the suppliers default in the contract.

Rakesh, happy to share some of the cost of mithai with you !!

Cheers and congratulations to all Rakshaks on the forum !!!!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 28 Apr 2011 17:25

>>May he inherit the crown and throne - and pretty soon !!

Fat chance of that boss!!! More likely as a BJP candidate

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Apr 2011 17:28

oh yeah.. this is all bloody offensive systems... the khans know it! they are just making it such that they are seen in the right direction always they wanted to be so.

two cold war enemies are well handled, one with a 30b pak-fa, and the other with long standing support system and warning systems, that comes without any peek modules - yeah cismoa and end user is all they care. sheesh! and we want to succumb the same way for this important IAF requirements? are they joking?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Apr 2011 17:36

Sweet revenge. I wrote about it in 2008

Paid F-16's for India

Why should we pay US for their mistake they commited long time back?

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 28 Apr 2011 17:42

Vasu wrote:I must say i'm quite surprised to see the UPeeA governmint have the balls to let the Americans remain out (and I hope they don't prove me wrong).

Amirkhans should understand this. Franship with TSP comes at a price. They can now mass produce all those eff-solahs and gift it to their gubo bitch.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Apr 2011 17:43

EADS, Dassault asked to extend combat jet bids till December

India has asked two European defence firms shortlisted for its $10.4 billion tender for 126 combat jets to extend their commercial bids till December 31 and has given them two weeks time to do so, an official said here Thursday.

‘With this down-select, we have completed a major milestone in the MMRCA acquisition process,’ defence ministry spokesperson Sitanshu Kar said when asked for his reaction to the development.

First official comment..confirms shortlist.

The defence ministry will carry out a ‘benchmarking’ of the prices of the two down-selected firms to arrive at a reasonable price for their aircraft before the commercial bids are opened and this could take some three to six months. ‘Only after the benchmarking is done would the commercial bids of the two firms be opened. The L1 — the lowest cost among the two bids — would be chosen after this benchmarking and cost negotiation process would begin with that firm,’ the official said, indicating that the contest for the major deal is not yet over.

Separately, the defence ministry would carry on negotiations with the two firms on their plans to fulfill their offsets commitments. India has fixed 50 percent offsets for the MMRCA deal to ensure that half of the deal’s worth or about $5 billion is reinvested in India to energise its defence industry. A day after India informed the four contenders who are out of the fray, none of them have petitioned the defence ministry for re-consideration of their case, the official said, when specifically asked about this.

No one is cribbing or complaining....just yet at least.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 28 Apr 2011 18:37

Nitin Pai and friends have been active on twitter denouncing the decision to kick out the US birds. Labels like 'stupidity', 'morons' and the like have been doing the rounds.

How to lose friends and alienate people

Starts with a bangy tagline too:

India’s decision to reject US fighter planes is strategic stupidity

Read it all. Good counterpoint, in a way.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 18:39

live update from Vishnu's pgm which quotes MOD 'sources'

- Mig35 - did poorly in trials
- Gripen - radar underdeveloped. plane itself underdeveloped
- F18 - performance concerns , after sales service concerns
- F16 - future development limited, intrusive US laws

price shown in EF - rafale comparison slide was Euro 90 mil vs Euro 63 mil

retd air marshal of WAC says precision strike capabilities , standoff weapons and AESA radar are most important criteria and whatever we get has to be modular and upgradeable enough to last us 40 yrs and effectively replace retiring older a/c in IAF.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 18:44

Marten pls note its in EURO not US DOLLARS.

thats $93 mil and $133 mil USD.

figures could be pulled from internet or from 'sources' who have looked at the real bid documents.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 28 Apr 2011 19:00

US ambassador Timothy Roemer resigns

NEW DELHI: US ambassador Timothy Roemer, the US ambassador to India resigned a day after India told the US companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin that their fighter aircraft were out of the reckoning for India's MMRCA bid.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 106645.cms

mody · Post by **mody** » 28 Apr 2011 19:01

As per that price, its 2 Su30MKI for 1 EF or 1 Su30MKI and 1 LCA + plus change remaining for 1 Rafael.

I know about putting all your eggs in one basket and all, but isn't that what all countries are doing. The French airforce is going to have only the Rafael post 2020. The Brits, Germans, Italians etc have all put all their eggs in the F35 basket and are hardly committing anymore money for EF. The idea is infact to reduce the different no. of aircrafts and make the inventory management easier.

Everyone is happy to see that either the Rafael or EF will end up in the IAF, when almost everyone agrees that the Su30MKI can kick the ass of both aircrafts as they currently exist, in air to air combat and also in A to G operations (the Rafael might be close in AtoG, the EF surely is inferior). The AESA when offered with these aircrafts, will make them more potent, but then the same can be said of the Su30MKI also. Co-develop a new AESA radar with the russians and put it in the Su30MKI and it remains on the top. Maybe the AESA being developed for the FGFA itself can be ported/adapted to the Su30MKI also.

Considering that the planes will start arriving around 2015 and deliveries completing around 2020, the whole MMRCA thing is nothing but a waste of tax payer money. The same amount could be easily pumped in developing the AMCA and more potent versions of the Su30MKI and LCA and better air to ground precision strike weapons and our own BVR missiles etc.

JMT.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Apr 2011 19:02

Guys, there is a Q. NDTV is the 24 X 7 or profit? I just tried to check my TV and saw only these two with NDTV logo. Is there another channel? The former two are not showing the MMRCA show.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 28 Apr 2011 19:12

NDTV 24x7 - just saw the show. Dunno if they are showing it on Profit.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 28 Apr 2011 19:15

chackojoseph wrote:Guys, there is a Q. NDTV is the 24 X 7 or profit? I just tried to check my TV and saw only these two with NDTV logo. Is there another channel? The former two are not showing the MMRCA show.

JE Menon wrote:NDTV 24x7 - just saw the show. Dunno if they are showing it on Profit.

As so often happens .... they did not update their channel lineup titles. The channel line-up still said Sports 24 x 7 while the "dogfight" took place ...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Apr 2011 19:17

Thanks, my NDTV 24 X 7 must be beamed from Badr-1 transponder. The babe was saying if the Indians are not good as coach and there was nothing about MMRCA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Apr 2011 19:19

I see, on BRF, one heck of a lot of discussion about price. but I recall reading recently that for most big ticket arms items part of the agreement is not to reveal the price because open pricing issues affect sales and profits. You reveal a bargain and you lose out later. So I am dead certain that most of our calculations of value quoted in press divided by number of aircraft are wrong. Only the US has some mechanism required by law to show some pricing - and I am sure even that has its own way of hiding more than it tells.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Apr 2011 19:23

Boeing's official response

"Boeing today was notified that our Super Hornet proposal for India's MMRCA competition was not short listed in the initial down select. We are obviously disappointed with this outcome. Our next step is to request and receive a debrief from the Indian Air Force. Once we have reviewed the details, we will make a decision concerning our possible options, always keeping in mind the impact to the Indian Air Force.

We believe we offered the Indian Air Force a fully compliant and best-value multi-role aircraft for the defined mission. We will continue to look for opportunities to help India modernize its armed services and enhance its aerospace industry”.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Apr 2011 19:34

Austin wrote:The Rafale IN angle would be interesting since IN is/will be in the market for new types once it moves beyond IAC-1 and MMRCA lic production is still 4-5 years away.

Unless IN decided that it needs nothing less than JSF the IN angle could play an important role in MMRCA selection.

Hope Philip could join us soon.

The Rafale would be an excellent choice for the IN and it's selection per MMRCA would have a definite Naval angle to it.

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 Apr 2011 19:42

Guess no one is acting defiant...we have shown a clear intent and individualism...The two down selects are best in the league...if choices were any of other four, it would have sent wrong signals about the process and rightly so...

So as far as I am concerned...the toughest part of the process is over, now it'll be moreover a cordial and pleasant deal with hard Indian bargaining...I am also not expecting any corrupt practices anymore now, because all of them have tasted their own medicines...and wont risk it...

At this stage there is no option for competitors except taking it easy, take a deep breath and start it over, the selected and not-selected both...and I am sure this is how it'll happen, We are too independent nation to play around with or talk serious stuff with a playful smirk...

Nor I think we'll ever see a American fighter ever in Indian service...MMRCA and FGFA are last foreign types for Indian industry, a new era has started, with great example...The world cup, MMRCA down select...This is start of an Indian decade...to dominate next coming decades...

I cant stop smiling...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Apr 2011 19:48

chetak wrote:
Austin wrote:The Rafale IN angle would be interesting since IN is/will be in the market for new types once it moves beyond IAC-1 and MMRCA lic production is still 4-5 years away.

Unless IN decided that it needs nothing less than JSF the IN angle could play an important role in MMRCA selection.

Hope Philip could join us soon.
The Rafale would be an excellent choice for the IN and it's selection per MMRCA would have a definite Naval angle to it.

Could there be an engine hidden in this all europe deal?

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 Apr 2011 19:55

chetak wrote:Could there be an engine hidden in this all europe deal?

In engine bid for LCA mk2 eurojet would have chosen sure...but I think there is no indication of such an angle, finally the nation who make the jet engine are the nations making the fighters...so some angle is always seen...

but guess MOD and IAF are not going to complicate a deal...things will go separate and if they both seen in same path, it will be an organically achieved not already thought of result...we seeing a match changing with every delivery and in five over span it can be drastically a different scene...but not a fixed match...

my 2 cents...

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 28 Apr 2011 19:56

Downselecting both aircraft from Europe will only make sense if the winner is willing to give an undertaking to GOI that it will never sell any aircraft or technology to China and Pakistan for the next 40 years without India's express approval. Otherwise India has just pissed away Euro 10 Billion +. With the US at least there will be no sales to China....Pakistan, heartburn notwithstanding is a manageable entity...to cope with Chinese aircraft numbers, the Indian Air Force needs a qualitative advantage. Unless the Europeans guarantee that by withholding sales/technology to China, this decision is stupid.

PS: With the Chinese influence in Europe being what it is, having bailed out the Spanish banking system by pumping in Euro 10 billion + within the last month, and the French ever salivating to sell arms to anyone, GOI has been incredibly stupid in not having at least 1 US aircraft shortlisted, if for nothing but to ensure that they get these undertakings from the Europeans

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 28 Apr 2011 20:08

Gurus, Gyani, Maulanas and fellow rakshaks,

I have a doubt,

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/ar ... epage=true

Admiral “Mike” Mullen, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff of the United States armed forces spoke with extraordinary candour on the troubled U.S.-Pakistan relationship. “We have had a very turbulent time,” he told Reuters, but despite tensions, both the U.S. and Pakistan acknowledged that the relationship was vital. “I think that all of us believe that we cannot afford to let this relationship come apart. It's just too dangerous. It's too dangerous, in each country, for each country. It's too dangerous for the region.” The relationship was difficult, but “we walk away from it at our peril, quite frankly.”

If TSPA can sufficiently turn on the heat on Khan in Af, is there a chance that Khan might buy its way out by this:

Dilbu wrote: <Snip> They can now mass produce all those eff-solahs and gift it to their gubo bitch.

Thats a bad thought, if nothing else can bring down the numerical superiority.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 28 Apr 2011 20:16

I should have added for free.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 28 Apr 2011 20:24

Dilbu wrote:I should have added for free.

Saar, With TSPA thats implied anyways....... So fikar Not.

But do you think they might do this?

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Apr 2011 20:27

ldev wrote:Unless the Europeans guarantee that by withholding sales/technology to China, this decision is stupid.

Not sure. The Chinese got their best stuff thus far from the Russians who also sell to us. The Euros are under the Unkil order not to sell weapons to the Chinese. So Unkil and Euro are the same there. Euros wont sell weapons to China because that will puncture deep holes in Unkil's strategic partner Taiwan and make it very dangerous for Unkil to intervene and try enforce the US-Taiwan defense per the Taiwan relations act.

The jokers in the pack are the Frenchies (who will sell anything, to anyone provided the price is right), who lobbied with the EU to lift that China arms sales thing. Unkil put paid to that. Sure, if you rope in the French , the joker in the EU pack is out (the remaining EU like Germany, UK etc are Unkil da Poodle only). But then that leaves out Russia, whom we can hope that because of it's own strategic reasons doesn't sell it's best and latest to China and hopefully FGFA kind of stuff will have non transfer to China because of Indian money and participation.

GOI has been incredibly stupid in not having at least 1 US aircraft shortlisted, if for nothing but to ensure that they get these undertakings from the Europeans

Well, you can always call back one of the rejects later if these two dont play ball, or even maybe even threaten to do so and put that in the negotiations somewhere.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Apr 2011 20:28

We are IMO reacting like Indians worrying about mehmaan's sentiment and not like Ralph Nader enabled hard nosed consumers. We have some buyer rights and we exercise them. China buys 1 aircraft, or 2 targeting pods and clones hundreds without batting an eyelid and drones come on here and say how the clones are 400% better. And here we are wondering how unkil might feel.

Balls. We do what we want. It's our money and those who want to sell have to meet our requirements. For the rest. Thanks tough.

No just imagine if both EF and Dassault say tomorrow - balls - we will not comply with the request to extend by 6 months then what? Of course the SDRE bania are clever. If one does that the other will get it and the only way they can do something is for both the cooperate in this game of prisoners dilemma. We then offer it to contenders 3 and 4 - F/A 18 and Gripen.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 28 Apr 2011 20:31

anirban_aim wrote:
Dilbu wrote:I should have added for free.
Saar, With TSPA thats implied anyways....... So fikar Not.

But do you think they might do this?

No I don't.

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Apr 2011 20:43

<snip>

not here

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Apr 2011 20:56

ldev wrote: PS: With the Chinese influence in Europe being what it is, having bailed out the Spanish banking system by pumping in Euro 10 billion + within the last month, and the French ever salivating to sell arms to anyone, GOI has been incredibly stupid in not having at least 1 US aircraft shortlisted, if for nothing but to ensure that they get these undertakings from the Europeans

One of the first thought that went through my mind. Here is what I feel.

ramana-saar, OT, but I feel getting these out-of-luck master swordsmiths to forge your swords is better than paying his village headman for influence. People hate alms, especially skilled ones, who feel they can do an honest day's work...

1) khan wont get the support khan wishes for in India, unless they shutdown the "jihad 'n paki" show they helped setup. They need to do a final curtain lowering show. Like a paki version of "Fat Prabha by the beach" that happened in SriLanka. They will not agree and Shree Roemer, unlike his immediate predecessor, seems to be frustrated of rigidity at both ends. But we can wait

2) OT, but since Chinese cheque writing skills are being bought here..... A Tata or Mittal taking over a euro firm and turning it around with fanfare and jobs. These things somehow seem to be discounted in favor of "Chinese wrote a billion dollar cheque, the Euro govts will sellout". Of course they will sell out, but then as per so many posters, so do Indian politicos!! This deal will get Europeans so many jobs across so many countries and will keep their weapons industry relevant. I remember Japanese prime ministerial visits always carry headlines of "billion dollar aid to India" since begining of my memory. But the effects were fleeting. No one really cared beyond "that is nice, they are hardworking" cliches. The feeling is japan is secretive, wanted to indulge in charity and wont help us earn our keep one day. But a Russian and more recently, US presidential visits generate more warmth due to the "partnership in industry and growth" and that their countries' business/industries helped us out in learning new areas.

3) French introduced us to Viking engines, the most cutting edge we could hope at that time. French have their significance, if you are searching with a purpose. And they might compromise somethings, but they too DON'T like copying. Napa Valley vintners

I have no preferences. Tomorrow if Khan topples the euro applecart (Bofors is a good template), negotiate well but finally make these machines fight the good fight, instead of sitting behind huge walls of SAMs.

(aesthetically, NONE of the fighters, including the euros, caught my imagination like the curves of an MKI or a B1B. So I am ok with anything as long as it brings down chini maal, within cost limits

)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 21:06

http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstyp ... sid=235374

Following is the timeline of India's $10.4-billion tender for 126 advanced combat aircraft, a proposal originally mooted in 2000:

* 2000: Indian Air Force (IAF) conveys to defence ministry its interest in acquiring medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to replace its ageing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21s and because of delays in developing the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).

* 2001: IAF issues request for information (RFI) for 126 combat jets.

* 2003: IAF seeks defence ministry's permission to buy 50 more French Mirage-2000s to shore up the only MMRCAs in its fleet as a stopgap arrangement. The aircraft had been acquired in the mid-1980s.

* 2004: Defence ministry asks IAF to instead issue a larger MMRCA tender.

* 2005: Defence ministry issues initial MMRCA tender but withdraws it quickly even as it starts receiving responses from vendors.

* 2006: The then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, flags the dwindling squadron strength of the force. From a sanctioned strength of 39.5 combat squadrons, the IAF is down to 33 squadrons.

* August 2007: India issues the tender for 126 MMRCAs at an estimated cost of $10.4 billion (Rs 46,000 crore).

* February 2008: US majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russia's United Aircraft Corporation, France's Dassault, European consortium EADS and Sweden's SAAB submit their bids.

* April 2009: Rumours afloat that Dassault and SAAB are out of the race.

* May 2009: Defence ministry says Dassault and SAAB still in contention.

* April 2010: IAF completes its flight and weapons evaluation of the six contenders on the basis of 643 parameters.

* December 2010: Offset proposals of contenders goes missing; later found on the roadside in south Delhi. The incident threatened to derail the tendering process.

* April 2011: India down-selects EADS and Dassault for the final leg of the contest, rejecting the other four contenders.

The deal is expected to be awarded to either EADS or Dassault by the end of this fiscal March 31, 2012.

Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a "fly-away" condition, with the remaining 108 to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a transfer of technology agreement. The size of the contract could eventually go up to 200 aircraft as there is a provision for increasing the order by 50 percent without any price hike.

The contract includes an offsets clause under which the winning vendor will plough back 50 percent ($5 billion) of the deal amount back in India to energise its defence industry.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Apr 2011 21:11

So it took 11 years to move from identifying the need to selection. We don't know how long will it take to get the first set of planes. And these guys complain about HAL taking 15 years to develop a fighter from scratch.

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 Apr 2011 21:19

vina wrote: Let that pass....at The Hindu.

I felt strongly to opine about it...but this thread is too valuable to talk about some dirty snowballing media houses speeding downhill, so lets just chuck it from this thread...cheers...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 21:21

Khalsa wrote:Rakesh..... why did you call the Rafale .... Katrina ?

After the Bollywood actress Katrina Kaif. I have this embarrassing habit of assigning names of Indian actresses to the fighter aircraft we have or will buy. PVS Jagan Mohan is going to kill me for this, cause he hated the name Rambha and this stupid naming convention of mine!

Anways, here is the list;

Su-30MKI: Rambha (a Tamil actress...see her photo and you will know why)

Rafale: Katrina (for being a real firecracker with just the right potency

)

EF Typhoon: Shatru (after yesteryear actor Shatrughan Sinha for attempting various roles - hero & villian - but came up short IMHO, much like Typhoon's alleged multi-role capability. And as well for his moustache which bears a close resemblance to the Typhoon's front canards. Alas, Shatru did not go down too well with my fellow BRFites and I since renamed her to Sonakshi (Shatrughan's daughter)...but still no takers

)

F-18: Rakhi Sawant (was not named by me...but by another BRFite...but aptly fits)

Mirage 2000 - Aishwariya Rai (because like the actress, she may be aging...but with an upgrade will come back with a bang! Also got the name Aishwariya Rai from an article I read by Air Marshal (Retd) Harish Masand about the MiG-29 vs Mirage 2000 duel in the 1980s. In there the M2K was known as Delicate Darlings, which is what she is.)

MiG-29UPG: Kajol (same as the one above, but already come back with a bang)

Jaguar: Madhuri Dixit (came back but fizzled out...much like Jaguar re-engine program)

Still have not decided on names for the MiG-27 and MiG-21 Bison.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Apr 2011 21:24

shiv wrote:We are IMO reacting like Indians worrying about mehmaan's sentiment and not like Ralph Nader enabled hard nosed consumers. We have some buyer rights and we exercise them. China buys 1 aircraft, or 2 targeting pods and clones hundreds without batting an eyelid and drones come on here and say how the clones are 400% better. And here we are wondering how unkil might feel.

Balls. We do what we want. It's our money and those who want to sell have to meet our requirements. For the rest. Thanks tough.

No just imagine if both EF and Dassault say tomorrow - balls - we will not comply with the request to extend by 6 months then what? Of course the SDRE bania are clever. If one does that the other will get it and the only way they can do something is for both the cooperate in this game of prisoners dilemma. We then offer it to contenders 3 and 4 - F/A 18 and Gripen.

Exactly what I've said on this forum quite a few times. It's REALLY annoying to see even senior members whining about how Umreekans or Roosies will feel by our purchase decisions. If the deal is so important for them, then why not be considerate of Indian interests and honour contracts.
and offer better equipment too. There are a handful of kirana shops in my locality. I buy stuff from 1 or 2 only according to my convenience. Who cares what rest think of me for not buying from them.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Apr 2011 21:25

Mig25 - Sonali Bendre
Mig 27 - Raveena Tandon
Mig 21 - Karishma Kapoor

:p