India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

manum · Post by **manum** » 07 May 2011 21:56

I didnt want to pull rabbit out of every hat, but USA

if responds well to Typhoon selection, if we do it because of a sweeter deal than Dassault...Or only way to get EF in IAF, as we want it is to hold the share in consortium, so we get a voice or opinion in the matters...Yes, we'll then have things as stake to loose...
But we may get few things we really want for our next projects...in 10-15 years...
EF's mess is also a possibility to be thought about...

The Eurofighter consortium is prepared to offer India a manufacturing role, as the international race intensifies to supply 126 jet fighters worth $11bn to New Delhi.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Bernhard Gerwert, chairman of Eurofighter’s supervisory board, said so-called work-share agreements – which determine what parts of the aircraft are made in the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy and support valuable high-tech jobs – would have to be adjusted if India bought the Typhoon multirole combat aircraft.

Speaking at the Bangalore air show on Thursday, Mr Gerwert said the manufacture of the aircraft would have to be “rebalanced” to meet the requirements of the world’s largest democracy, should it choose to become part of what he called “the Eurofighter family”.

“All of the partners will have to reduce content in Europe and shift to India,” he said.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/10ed3afe-3557 ... abdc0.html

I think EF already knows its problems...and is ready to be pragmatic about it...

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 May 2011 01:36

Hey Rakman are we getting the Katrina with a mole on her cheek (i.e. bolt on IFR probe) ? I am not amused, kind of spoils the curves.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 May 2011 05:29

yeah it looks like we can buy an elephant, but can't think or afford to buy a control stick to tame the giant. retractable probe would make it cool, with added benefit of reduced RCS, drag, etc.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 May 2011 09:17

SaiK wrote:SEAD SEAD SEAD! which one is better - Rafale or EF2K?

Boss, read the link below...ALL OF IT. You will know why Katrina is such an amazing SEAD aircraft.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... rated.html

SaiK wrote:On the AESA, the T/R module power matters for long range role.

Techies, please help me with this one...the Rafale's small nose cone means lesser T/R modules can be incorporated in the RBE-2 AESA radar when compared to the CAPTOR-E or the APG-79. But in the long range role, won't our Phalcon AWACS more or less make up for the deficiency? One more question...can the Phalcon AWACS guide a long range missile (Meteor, R-77RVV-AE, etc) to their target?

negi wrote:Hey Rakman are we getting the Katrina with a mole on her cheek (i.e. bolt on IFR probe) ? I am not amused, kind of spoils the curves.

Look at the picture below of Cindy Crawford and tell me if the mole on her cheek is bothersome? Would you turn down somebody like her for Rakhi Sawant or Tun Tun?

SaiK wrote:yeah it looks like we can buy an elephant, but can't think or afford to buy a control stick to tame the giant. retractable probe would make it cool, with added benefit of reduced RCS, drag, etc.

But a retractable probe would mean additional moving parts and added weight (although could be negligible). I guess the designers at Dassault felt with the offensive and defensive aids at her disposal, a fixed probe would be an acceptable penalty to have.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 May 2011 09:31

ranjithnath wrote:^^not entirely correct.their crotale 4000 system is being replaced by 10 batteries of spada 2000.also they have a dozen or so HQ2 batteries. these are mostly situated on their western front and vital nuclear installations. I will try to post a link of possible location and ranges of current paki air defence system.

ranjithnath wrote:^^^^maybe OT but kat's AASM requires her to stay on air and guide it until it hits the target.this scenario may not be applicable for TSP which will scramble their assets once we get too close.harpy can do a decent job on the radars close to the border but for deep penetration(eg attacking sargodha and kamra AFB's), integration of a decent ARM to katrina is important which will give her a huge advantage in terms of standoff and fire and forget capability.

The above posts are from the Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc thread. I am posting the reply here, as it is more apt to discuss this issue in this thread.

Ranjit: The missile in the Spada 2000 system has a range of 25 km. Katrina can launch AASMs in a standoff distance exceeding 50 km and can even be fired up to 180 degrees off-axis in relation to the aircraft's flight path! Just visualize that for a second and see how impressive this is. With Katrina, TSP can scramble all the F-Solah and Fundaars they want, but will have a hard time trying to stay out of Katrina's kill envelope which in turn will negate any thing they are capable of doing.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 May 2011 09:33

Rakesh, compromises are always possible, but we have to see at what discounts it comes.

.

on the BVR, are you suggesting that we need air ops always with AWACs support? what about dedicated missions that does not warrant an AWACs deployment? [assuming, the net centricity comes with Rafale, and can be integrated with our AWACs - especially track while scan, and cue the feeds]

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 08 May 2011 09:58

Rakesh wrote:
ranjithnath wrote:^^not entirely correct.their crotale 4000 system is being replaced by 10 batteries of spada 2000.also they have a dozen or so HQ2 batteries. these are mostly situated on their western front and vital nuclear installations. I will try to post a link of possible location and ranges of current paki air defence system.

ranjithnath wrote:^^^^maybe OT but kat's AASM requires her to stay on air and guide it until it hits the target.this scenario may not be applicable for TSP which will scramble their assets once we get too close.harpy can do a decent job on the radars close to the border but for deep penetration(eg attacking sargodha and kamra AFB's), integration of a decent ARM to katrina is important which will give her a huge advantage in terms of standoff and fire and forget capability.
The above posts are from the Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc thread. I am posting the reply here, as it is more apt to discuss this issue in this thread.

Ranjit: The missile in the Spada 2000 system has a range of 25 km. Katrina can launch AASMs in a standoff distance exceeding 50 km and can even be fired up to 180 degrees off-axis in relation to the aircraft's flight path! Just visualize that for a second and see how impressive this is. With Katrina, TSP can scramble all the F-Solah and Fundaars they want, but will have a hard time trying to stay out of Katrina's kill envelope which in turn will negate any thing they are capable of doing.

rakeshsaab,im a big fan of katrina and a bigger fan of AASM!!im one of those guyz who beleive there is no other PGM which comes close to AASM at present(unless ofcoz future variants of paveway).but for an AR role ,even if it is fired fire standoff distances it still requires the attacking aircraft to paint the target and stay on air within the sights of damocles laser hot spot tracker(assuming it to be laser guided and not GPS\INS based).an option is to be to use IIR guidance as singhaji said.but wouldnt it be better if a dedicated ARM is integrated(even the unkil use AGM 88 or e JDRADM in future which has dozens of series of paveway PGM).fire the missile and forget it and then take down couple of solah's and bandars that come your way.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 08 May 2011 11:04

Why the swooning over AASM? Exactly what is so special about this 300,000$ weapon? Hardly anybody seems to point out that it still relies on american GPS. And its IR guided version still nowhere to be seen. This is while weapons(which are probably much cheaper) from Khan and Israel like the Spice munition have been around for years. All I see is French marketing BS an people buying it hook, line and sinker.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 08 May 2011 11:57

Rakesh wrote: Look at the picture below of Cindy Crawford and tell me if the mole on her cheek is bothersome? Would you turn down somebody like her for Rakhi Sawant or Tun Tun?

touché

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 08 May 2011 13:33

AASM is a small thing, MBDA is ready to co-develop Meteor BVRAAM with India. All Rafale and EF lovers will love this news.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 May 2011 13:42

isn't meteor already developed and in limited production ?

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 08 May 2011 13:45

nope. It is under development scheduled to be done some time in later half of 2013. The news I shared with you is from June 2010.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 08 May 2011 13:49

Now in case of Israeli ban due to US pressure on AESA for Tejas MkII, what are the chances of Ef2k & Rafale offering their respective AESAs for Tejas MkII. Would that give extra points to the company making such offer?

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 08 May 2011 14:03

MBDA and India -- From June 2010

MBDA, a world leader in missiles and missiles system, desires to be a major player in the Indian defence market and is viewing India as the fifth pillar of its structure in addition to current partner countries – France, UK, Italy and Germany. Loïc Piedevache, Country Head (India Operations), MBDA Group, in conversation with SP’s Editor-in-Chief Jayant Baranwal spoke about building a reliable, strategic and long-term partnership in India.

SP Guide Publications (SP’s): MBDA was formed with the merger of key missile producers in France, Italy and Great Britain, and subsequent acquisition in Germany. Has this made you a world leader or was it a fait accompli?

Loïc Piedevache (Loïc): In the past few decades, there have been many mergers and reorganisations in the defence sector worldwide. The merger of several companies has resulted in bigger turnover and a best use of resources.

But a lot of hard work was required to effectively integrate the companies and ensure that their operating systems were coordinated properly. In order to create a suitable business model, resources had to be pooled in the most effective manner with the correct use of synergies.

MBDA has set a benchmark in terms of international integration within the defence sector and has become a global player.

SP’s: Can you please tell us about the company’s current profile? How do you position yourself in the global market today?

Loïc: MBDA is a global player having business in defence markets across the globe. We are moving towards a situation where over 50 per cent of our turnover will come from export activities as opposed to domestic sales (UK, France, Italy, and Germany).

SP’s: Can you briefly outline the company’s history? What are the factors that lead to the merger? In hindsight, what have been its positive points?

Loïc: The consolidation of Europe's missile companies began in 1996, when parts of Matra Defence and BAe Dynamics merged to form Matra BAe Dynamics (MBD). In 1999, the Aérospatiale-Matra Missiles was formed. In 1998, GEC-Marconi Radar and Defence Systems and Alenia Difesa combined their missile and radar activities to form Alenia Marconi Systems (AMS). In December 2001, MBD (including AMM) and the Missile and Missile Systems activities of AMS were merged and thus came up MBDA. In June 2005, LFK, a unit of EADS Defence and Security Systems merged with MBDA. The merger was necessary for the survival of the fragmented European industry.

SP’s: What is the annual turnover of MBDA? Your website says you have as many as 45 products in service. What are your most sought-after products?

Loïc: The growth was rapid and by 2005 MBDA had doubled its turnover to 3 billion Euros. The company’s current turnover (2009) stands at 2.6 billion Euros. It will be difficult to say what are our most sought after products. In terms of quantity (number not value) – large quantities of Eryx missiles and Exocet missiles have been sold. Mistral is in service with about 30 countries and will soon be in service on the Indian Dhruv/WSI. But MILAN manufactured under license in India by BDL has been sold in even higher quantities around the world.

SP’s: MBDA is a multinational company. What is the collective view of the nations involved (in MBDA) with regard to transfer of the latest and sensitive technologies to India? Are there any conflicts of interest?

Loïc: There are no conflicts of interest. MBDA’s identity is represented by advanced technology and not nationality. Transfer of technology (ToT) is a key feature that MBDA offers. Our customers do not wait for a product enhancement to be commonly available. If the customer makes specific demand for a product, we make it available for them after discussions with them about the specific enhancements in line with national specific requirements.

SP’s: MBDA offers a range of weapons for all the three forces—land, sea and air. What edge does your range of weapons offer compared to your competitors? Is cutting-edge technology the USP of your group or do you have other aces too up your sleeve?

Loïc: MBDA has many aces—we are definitely a technology leader. We are the only company providing weapons to all three of the armed forces.

Weapons such as Storm Shadow/SCALP and Meteor are the world leaders in their categories and cannot be compared with any of other weapons. We combine the industrial and technological strengths of France, Italy, Germany and the UK together within one company.

Meteor, the beyond visual range air-to-air missile dominates the air battle giving air superiority against the threats, provides an unmatched no escape zone. It has been ordered by the UK Ministry of Defence and five other European nations — France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Sweden. The Storm Shadow/SCALP is a conventionally armed stand-off air-to-ground long-range missile which can be deployed day and night and in adverse weather.

SP’s: MBDA is one of the leading manufacturers of missiles in the world. In what ways are the 15 new products now being developed by MBDA different?

Loïc: The new developments include intelligent warheads, modular systems, and new propulsion technologies among others. They are all designed to meet new customer requirements regarding new terms of engagement, new platforms, threats, etc.

SP’s: When something becomes seemingly obsolete, do you phase out the product or upgrade it? Or is it a combination of both?

Loïc: Due to budget constraints, some customers ask to extend the life of their existing missiles. In many cases we have provided life-extention service up to 5-10 years through our support team. As we respond to customer operational needs, it results in the long-term development of our product portfolio. Of course, we need to provide long-term support for in-service products and so we cannot just decide a product line as obsolete and ignore it.

SP’s: Can you please elaborate on the ground-based air defence missile, air dominance missile and surface to surface missile systems manufactured by MBDA?

Loïc: MBDA is a leader in providing a range of defence systems to create an effective layered defence system—from deployable short range systems such as Mistral and VL Mica to higher level systems such as Aster.

Our air dominance range includes ASRAAM, Mica and Meteor to ensure the air-to-air battle. Dual Mode Brimstone and Storm Shadow/SCALP are available to deliver devastating precision in the air-to-ground attack missions.

In the battlefield warfare, MBDA is offering MILAN and Eryx missiles. Concerning the maritime threats, we can offer a wide choice of weapons: the latest generation of Exocet family (MM40 Block 3) and Otomat Mk2 Block IV for long range targets and Marte Mk2 for middle range targets.

SP’s: You lay a lot of emphasis on customer support. How do you ensure that every sale is followed by quality customer support?

Loïc: Customer support is crucial for us. We ensure that the customer gets the maximum benefit from the equipment “through life support through life performance.” Our support service ranges from training, spares management, repair work, assistance with live firings, stockpile management, etc.

Our customer service is highly personalized and does not come off the shelf or out of a catalogue. It is discussed, developed, adapted, customised and implemented in line with each and every customer’s specific requirements. Our approach is work in-country with the customer.

SP’s: The Milan anti-tank missile has been in service with the Indian Army for a long time now. It is understood that a fresh contract was signed at the end of 2008 for an upgraded version? Please elaborate?

Loïc: Milan is a real success story between MBDA and Indian public sector undertaking Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) which started 30 years ago. Licenses for several versions of Milan missiles have been successfully implemented in India. The last version delivered to India is the Milan 2T which has a deadly tandem warhead and enhanced operational capabilities.

SP’s: It has been reported that MBDA and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are jointly developing a new generation of low-level, quick-reaction air defence missile Maitri for the Indian Navy and the Air Force. It is understood that it has been offered to the Indian Army as well. Can you comment on the project?

Loïc: MDBA is considering India as a strategic long-term partner and is keen to shift from a usual buyer-seller approach to a deeper relation through a strong co-development programme involving key transfer of technologies. Developing short range surface-to-air missile (SRSAM) is in sync with this strategic step.

The 3 Forces will be potential customers for SR SAM as there is a specific operational configuration to match their requirements.

SP’s: Will you also offer core technologies like the design of the active seeker head and the missile engine apart from the other subsystems?

Loïc: Sensitive technologies will be transferred in the frame of SRSAM, but at this stage, we cannot disclose more information.

SP’s: What about the missiles systems for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and missile upgradation for Jaguar and Mirage 2000? Is MBDA contemplating on participating in the mid-life upgradation programmes of these combat aircraft of the IAF?

Loïc: Regarding the Mirage upgradation, MBDA has been requested to make an offer for the air-to-air weapon. We have proposed the MICA, the multi-mission air-to-air missile system which has outstanding maneuverability, high resistance to countermeasures, two interoperable advanced technology seekers and can be used in multi-target from long BVR interception to close-in dog fight.

Regarding the Jaguar, MBDA is currently responding to a request for proposal (RFP) for a close combat missile. We are offering Asraam Combat Missile for Jaguars, which has already successfully been fitted on Jaguars in other air forces and successfully tested in “over-wing” configuration.

SP’s: Is MBDA a part of the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the IAF?

Loïc: MBDA is providing missiles in weapon packages of the 3 European OEMs including Dassault Aviation (Rafale), EADS (Eurofighter) and Saab (Gripen).

SP’s: Can you please tell us something about MBDA’s multi-purpose combat vehicle project and its other variants? Will it be offered to India?

Loïc: The multi-purpose combat vehicle is a versatile and deadly accurate air transportable vehicle equipped with a motorised turret, with electro optical sensors. It has a small caliber gun and four ready-to-fire missiles that can be operated from an interior firing console.

It will be offered to India if there is a requirement.

SP’s: Are you working on any other joint venture with BDL?

Loïc: MBDA does not have any JV with BDL. We are providing production licenses to BDL.

SP’s: Has MBDA established any joint venture or partnership with any Indian company in the private sector or do you propose to do so to meet the possible offset requirements?

Loïc: MBDA is looking for a strong, reliable, strategic, long-term and fruitful partnership with India. In this regard, we are having advanced discussions with a major private Indian group. This partnership will be a structured and comprehensive one and will meet all the procurement requirements. We are looking for a partner having complementary technologies and skills, a strategy consistent with MBDA’s global strategy, in order to become / behave as a source or an equal partner, able to export from its home base, share MBDA views on collaboration with SME’s, DPSU’s, and be recognised by the Indian authorities as a strategic industrial asset for the country.

SP’s: What are your long-term plans for India? How do you see the potential?

Loïc: Besides BDL, we have also been working with Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). We welcome the developments with regard to foreign direct investment (FDI) in India, which is at present 26 per cent. Emergence of private sectors would be fruitful to complement the public sector.

MBDA wants to be a major local player in India. MBDA is seeing India as the fifth pillar of its structure after the four domestic countries (UK, France, Italy, and Germany).

SP’s: How do you look at the future?

Loïc: We work 20 years ahead of time!

In the answer to second last question the line about co development of Meteor is missing above. One can see it in the scanned copy of printed magazine.
http://imageshack.us/f/704/capture3kt.jpg/

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 May 2011 14:42

Singha wrote:main problem for EF as A2G seems 3 of the 4 will go for JSF - uk, italy and spain due to being jsf partners, or munnas, or both or needing naval fighters on the side. the JSF was sold as a 'affordable' platform but ofcourse will end up even more expensive than todays EF, which no doubt would also get costlier per unit if A2G costs were brought in. american weapons are produced in bulk volumes and generally cheaper...

Well if carry that argument over to the Rafale, the difference becomes even more stark. The Rafale has only 180 confirmed order so far, the AASM isn't going to be cheaper than the Paveway-IV.

their other big customer KSA has also ordered around 75 of latest F-15 model which will feature aesa radars and all the A2G weapons americans produce. so they would not have much incentive to fund EF A2G either, but might lay out of some money for captor-E for H&D purposes since UAe already has it on block60 falcons.

without saudi or indian money, imo captor-e will be a stillborn effort. for the low level of threats they face, the current ceaser radar is plenty enough.

One of the advantages of participating in an international consortium is that any member can independently develop and integrate upgrades to the aircraft regardless of whether a consensus on the same has been achieved or not. Case in point - anticipating delays or hiccups in the Euroradar AESA project, the UK MoD contracted Selex-Galileo to develop and integrate an AESA into the EF by 2013. Of course now that the Captor-E has been green lit, ER is trying to get this program integrated into their effort. In either case, the EF will get an AESA regardless of whether it wins the IAF's contract.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 08 May 2011 15:21

SaiK wrote:
Dileep wrote:Well, your dirty kafir mind can also think about Katrina's CockPit.
damn too tight it seems! kudos to lca-mk2 actually. still,.. don't want to stop your enjoyment with this:-

While the Rambha is + size, the Katrina, true to her name is '0 size'

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 08 May 2011 17:44

^^^
nice video .
Dassault perhaps should hire salman as brand ambassador. He sure would appreciate cockpit ergonomics.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 May 2011 17:52

Manish, on the AESA for LCA Mk2, there is no such requirement envisaged to MRCA contenders. So, there would be no question about tech deal. Currently, we were in deal with Elta, Israel for 2032 hybrid with deshi t/r panels. I wish LRDE's AESA gets in to LCA Mk2, rather any firang one. IAF would be able to FoC with 2032 specifications, and we may not want an AESA offer for LCA, rather focus on the MRCA AESA what the best these two euro companies can provide. [read nrao's response on where Dasault and EADS status is on their AESA - perhaps 2013/14 timeframe].

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 May 2011 20:07

ranjithnath wrote:rakeshsaab,im a big fan of katrina and a bigger fan of AASM!!im one of those guyz who beleive there is no other PGM which comes close to AASM at present(unless ofcoz future variants of paveway).but for an AR role ,even if it is fired fire standoff distances it still requires the attacking aircraft to paint the target and stay on air within the sights of damocles laser hot spot tracker(assuming it to be laser guided and not GPS\INS based).an option is to be to use IIR guidance as singhaji said.but wouldnt it be better if a dedicated ARM is integrated(even the unkil use AGM 88 or e JDRADM in future which has dozens of series of paveway PGM).fire the missile and forget it and then take down couple of solah's and bandars that come your way.

Ranjit, I am just saying that the range of the Spada 2000 missile is 25 km only, while the AASM has a "claimed" range of ~ 50 km. So the Rafale can stay well out of the kill range of the Spada missile. But I agree with you, a dedicated ARM (AGM-88 HARM type) would be nice to have. MBDA manufactures the ALARM. Check it out;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALARM_(missile)

abhik wrote:Why the swooning over AASM? Exactly what is so special about this $300,000 weapon? Hardly anybody seems to point out that it still relies on american GPS. And its IR guided version still nowhere to be seen. This is while weapons (which are probably much cheaper) from Khan and Israel like the Spice munition have been around for years. All I see is French marketing BS an people buying it hook, line and sinker.

Do you know of any missile of this nature, that does not rely on American GPS? Perhaps we should buy them instead. GPS is the standard...the other option is GLONASS which is still not operational. And missiles of this precision are expensive indeed...but you need to see what we are capable of destroying (SAM sites, which are a lot more expensive than $300,000).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 May 2011 20:12

Perhaps a good case for our DRDO to add a AGM88 types to their augmented IGMDP list.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 May 2011 20:19

SaiK wrote:On the BVR, are you suggesting that we need air ops always with AWACs support? what about dedicated missions that does not warrant an AWACs deployment? [assuming, the net centricity comes with Rafale, and can be integrated with our AWACs - especially track while scan, and cue the feeds]

It would be nice to achieve air dominance/superiority so AWACS combined with air support would be nice. My question is if the Rafale's AESA is not powerful enough (due to the lack of T/R modules) can the Phalcon take over guidance of a Meteor to hit it's designated target?

From wiki about Meteor's Datalink;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_missile

Meteor will be 'network-enabled'. A two-way datalink will allow the launch aircraft to provide mid-course target updates or retargeting if required, including data from off board third-parties. The datalink will be able to transmit missile information such as functional and kinematic status, information on multiple targets, and notification of target acquisition by the seeker. The two-way datalink is compatible with Eurofighter and Gripen but not with Rafale which is fitted with a one-way link originally designed for use with MICA. French missiles will be fitted with a different unit. The datalink electronics are mounted in the starboard intake fairing, ahead of the FAS. The antenna is mounted in the rear of the fairing.
On 19 November 1996 BC completed the latest in a series of tests designed to assess the attenuation of signals by the boron rich exhaust plume of the TDR, a concern highlighted by opponents of this form of ramjet propulsion. Tests were conducted with signals transmitted through the plume at various angles. The initial results suggested that the attenuation was much less than expected.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 May 2011 20:31

It should be from a software angle if I may say.. all the missile needs is the mid course correction feeds. So, whatever source code we get, we should be able to integrate with phalcon. Now, that should include sending the correction information to meteor.

Now, I am assuming, at the terminal stage, meteor's homing takes care off, while phalcon only does a video or destruction analysis reports.

I hope the israelies would not be hindered by the khans for such a venture.

BENNY · Post by **BENNY** » 08 May 2011 21:13

France hint on Pak

New Delhi, May 7: The French government is mulling downgrading its strategic partnership with Pakistan, officials of the European country hinted to foreign secretary Nirupama Rao during her visit to Paris.

Rao was in Paris on May 5-6 for the annual India-France foreign office consultations. The Indian foreign secretary landed in Paris barely hours after Pakistan Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani concluded his not-so-happy three-day state visit to France.

New Delhi has for long been asking western countries to review their military assistance to Pakistan, mostly sought for the war against terror, but which the government feels has been directed at India.

Now, public opinion in France has questioned the country’s non-civilian help to Islamabad after the discovery that Osama bin Laden had spent several years hiding in Pakistan’s Abbottabad, sources said. Paris is also conscious of India potentially being a more important partner than Pakistan in the years to come.

France wants to sell nuclear reactors and military hardware worth thousands of crores of rupees to India in the years to come, including French fighter jet Rafale, which along with Eurofighter Typhoon, is in the reckoning for the over Rs 50,000-crore defence deal.

Rao held discussions with senior French officials led by Pierre Sellal, the secretary-general of the ministry of foreign affairs of France.

A spokesperson for the ministry of external affairs said the two sides reviewed “the entire range of bilateral relations including strategic co-operation in key areas, such as civil nuclear energy, defence, space, trade and investment, education, science and technology and culture”.

“There was also an exchange of views on the regional and international situation. The two sides also discussed the evolving situation in North Africa and the Middle East, in particular Libya and Syria,” the spokesperson said.

Foreign officials said the two sides discussed ways to strengthen an India-France strategic partnership, “defined by the strong and future-oriented vision articulated during the visit of the President of France to India from December 4-7, 2010”.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110508/j ... 954917.jsp

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 08 May 2011 21:20

Ranjit, I am just saying that the range of the Spada 2000 missile is 25 km only, while the AASM has a "claimed" range of ~ 50 km. So the Rafale can stay well out of the kill range of the Spada missile. But I agree with you, a dedicated ARM (AGM-88 HARM type) would be nice to have. MBDA manufactures the ALARM.

well its not only SAM sites that our aircraft needs protection from.those solahs and bundars are gonna be in air the moment our a/c crosses LAC(maybe we can jam their radars and later PAF chief will say they wer inactive

{read- osama raid})ALARM is already integrated to tiffy but not rafale(puzles me).maybe im hyperventilating coz the french knows what theyre doing

katrina's AASM will do the job under dedicated escort i guess.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 08 May 2011 21:26

SaiK wrote:Perhaps a good case for our DRDO to add a AGM88 types to their augmented IGMDP list.

maybe something on the lines of JDRADM(with astra mk2).will be an uphill task of making a missile do the dedicated job of both BVRAAM and ARM.will be something if they can pull it off.or maybe we can cofund and codevelop the scrapped ARMIGER project with MBDA and Diehl BGT(highly unlikely though)since it was envisaged to use meteor airframe with some modifications,it will provide commonality with meteor AAM.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 08 May 2011 21:29

BENNY wrote:France hint on Pak

New Delhi, May 7: The French government is mulling downgrading its strategic partnership with Pakistan, officials of the European country hinted to foreign secretary Nirupama Rao during her visit to Paris.
....
....
France wants to sell nuclear reactors and military hardware worth thousands of crores of rupees to India in the years to come, including French fighter jet Rafale, which along with Eurofighter Typhoon, is in the reckoning for the over Rs 50,000-crore defence deal.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110508/j ... 954917.jsp

Bollocks... Since Pakistan is no condition to buy any expensive French products, we see the French wrapping up reality as a gift and presenting it to us. I certainly hope that we in India do not bite the bait. Rather we should insist that France stops canvasing for dropping the European ban of arms sale to PRC. Let us not forget that some very potent weapons in possession with Pakistan are of French origin including and not limited to agosta submarines.

Make no mistake, this so called hints is nothing but a pitch for the MMRCA tender and other big ticket items. It has nothing to do with Osama presence in Pakistan or any other terrorism emanating from Pakistan.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2011 21:35

developing a ARM version of the Astra mk1 with help from MBDA as necessary sounds like reasonable plan to me.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 May 2011 22:06

BAE Systems, one of the companies developing the Typhoon, is also the developer of the Suter radar Trojan:

Suter is a military computer program developed by BAE Systems that attacks computer networks and communications systems belonging to an enemy. Development of the program has been managed by Big Safari, a secret unit of the United States Air Force. It is specialised to interfere with the computers of integrated air defence systems.[1]

Three generations of Suter have been developed. Suter 1 allows its operators to monitor what enemy radar operators can see. Suter 2 lets them take control of the enemy's networks and direct their sensors. Suter 3, tested in summer 2006, enables the invasion of links to time-critical targets such as battlefield ballistic missile launchers or mobile surface-to-air missile launchers.

The program has been tested with aircraft such as the EC-130, RC-135, and F-16CJ.[1] It has been used in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2006.[2][3]

U.S. Air Force officials have speculated that a technology similar to Suter was used by the Israeli Air Force to thwart Syrian radars and sneak into their airspace undetected in Operation Orchard on September 6, 2007. The evasion of air defence radar was otherwise unlikely because the F-15s and F-16s used by the IAF were not equipped with stealth technology.[2][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suter_%28c ... program%29

Any precautions to be taken for the Typhoon should obviously also apply for the Rafale.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 09 May 2011 01:10

SaiK wrote:Manish, on the AESA for LCA Mk2, there is no such requirement envisaged to MRCA contenders. So, there would be no question about tech deal. Currently, we were in deal with Elta, Israel for 2032 hybrid with deshi t/r panels. I wish LRDE's AESA gets in to LCA Mk2, rather any firang one. IAF would be able to FoC with 2032 specifications, and we may not want an AESA offer for LCA, rather focus on the MRCA AESA what the best these two euro companies can provide. [read nrao's response on where Dasault and EADS status is on their AESA - perhaps 2013/14 timeframe].

Ahh! I thought since the banning of AESA, we were looking for new partner. Yes in that case it would be good have as much desi input in Tejas AESA as possible.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 May 2011 02:42

of course, you must consider it was only a fish bone analysis. it could entirely change all based on how IAF feels about home grown lions and 4 legged-ness of LCA.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 May 2011 04:35

SRai,

Exactly what I said. The production ready sensors (hopefully) circa 2012 include the production series AESA and the new OSF with new thermal imaging channel - the AESA is reportedly ready. But the next MLU with the fancy "cloud TRMs" will only come around 2020, that too if funding is provided.

Meanwhile, there is an excellent article on the Rafale and another on the Eurofighter from Michael Fiszer, a former Polish AF pilot now an author.

Rafale
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51379

Typhoon
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... cc&t=51352

Of course some of the details may be overtaken by more up to date news. The author implies that for the Rafale, the radar operates in LPI mode with a range of 100 km. AESA would have added more range, but would be interesting to see how much the LPI stuff is true or not. The 100 km range if true, is against a small class target.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3811949

A Rafale with the RBE2 in the F3-plus standard would have 360-degree coverage with multiple sensors including infrared search and track, laser targeting, electromagnetic sensors and multimode radar with a range 40 percent greater than current models. A terrain-following capability would allow Rafale pilots to fly at 600 knots at 50 feet, Chaltiel said.

The current Rafale F2 strike fighter uses a passive array antenna for air-to-air and air-to-ground use. Test and evaluation by French and foreign air forces showed last month that the radar and other sensors, when used with electronic support measures, allow collaborative fire between two Rafales using a Link 16 connection, he said.

At any rate, the UAE statements taken in conjunction with French Generals statements imply that the AESA radar is almost at the level of the APG-80 which is a very respectable radar.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 May 2011 04:45

Have to say, the Su-30 MKI upgrades w/AESA, new avionics, new RVV missiles for air superiority & the multirole Rafale with AESA for strike would make an awesome combination. The Pakistani AF has already been overshadowed a long while back, but just imagine, an IAF with 270 odd Su-30 MKIs, 200 Rafales, 200 LCAs and a mix of upgraded Jaguars, MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s gradually giving way to the new FGFA (another 250-300 planes) and then, the MCA. What striking power. The only thing missing from the roundup are Indian LGBs, ARMs and PGMs. We should really get cracking on that front. Even the PLAAF would think twice before tangling with an IAF armed with such equipment.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 09 May 2011 05:28

RBE-2 AESA Radar:

Thales AESA RBE2 validated on Rafale

This latest major milestone confirms the AESA RBE2 radar’s high level of maturity. The AESA RBE2 with active array will give the Rafale a number of key advantages:

Extended range for compatibility with the latest generation long range missiles and ability to detect low-signature targets
Higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no maintenance required on the active array for 10 years)
Extended waveform agility, making it possible to acquire submetric synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery while increasing the radar’s resistance to jamming

With the AESA RBE2’s performance now validated, in line with the contract schedule, Thales will begin series production of equipment for installation on the aircraft under Tranche 4 of the Rafale programme. The Tranche 4 aircraft were ordered by the DGA in 2009 and will be delivered by Dassault Aviation to the French Air Force from 2013.

RBE-2 AESA Module Patterns and Count

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 09 May 2011 05:34

What we should look for is partnership with Thales to make a variety of next generation Sensor & Software.

1) Conformal GaN based Active Array for [Radar, EW and CNI]
2) EO DAS [F-35 type system]
3) Next generation Multi Sensor [Conformal RF Sensor + EO Sensor] data fusion technology
4) Network centric combat methodology

With Scenma on making improving Kaveri and making it capable for LCA MK.x and AMCA [start versions]

The first four, France can find it useful to go into Rafale MLU. They cannot do this w/o financial support. Only if India can split the R&D and production cost this can easily become feasible and will result in a win win situation for both of us.

AMCA will start flight test program in 2017. Once the airframe is aerodynamically tested say after 3 years of testing, we can start putting out above mentioned sensors. This is the only way to stay ahead of China and leave pukes into dust.

FGFA, MKI, LCA, Rafale and AMCA all in 2020+ equipped with top notch avionics, weapons and Sensor suite and are part of a big network that involves: Military Satellite based Reco and Navigation System in Space, AWACS in Air, and C4I infrastructure on ground. Now that is a force fully aware and lethally equipped by 2023.

raj-ji · Post by **raj-ji** » 09 May 2011 05:41

Christopher Sidor wrote:
BENNY wrote:France hint on Pak

New Delhi, May 7: The French government is mulling downgrading its strategic partnership with Pakistan, officials of the European country hinted to foreign secretary Nirupama Rao during her visit to Paris.
....
....
France wants to sell nuclear reactors and military hardware worth thousands of crores of rupees to India in the years to come, including French fighter jet Rafale, which along with Eurofighter Typhoon, is in the reckoning for the over Rs 50,000-crore defence deal.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110508/j ... 954917.jsp
Bollocks... Since Pakistan is no condition to buy any expensive French products, we see the French wrapping up reality as a gift and presenting it to us. I certainly hope that we in India do not bite the bait. Rather we should insist that France stops canvasing for dropping the European ban of arms sale to PRC. Let us not forget that some very potent weapons in possession with Pakistan are of French origin including and not limited to agosta submarines.

Make no mistake, this so called hints is nothing but a pitch for the MMRCA tender and other big ticket items. It has nothing to do with Osama presence in Pakistan or any other terrorism emanating from Pakistan.

The Pukis now will have a harder time lobbying for military aid after a very high value target was found hiding for years in a Pak military run town. Business or not this is something of value for the GOI. The Pukis have been milking the Afghan angle for decades, and they have been very effective in this. Time for the GOI to step up our lobbying to get some overdue credit for keeping up the pressure on the Pukis for decades.

If the French have realised that there is a bigger better future dealing with us compared to the Pukis, it is not something to take lightly. After all, many other countries have not figured that out yet.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 09 May 2011 06:10

United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS) is a joint venture between EADs and Thales for R&D and production of MMICs etc

Industrial GaN FET Technology

Abstract:
GaN technology has gained a lot of attention in Europe over the last few years for various domains including RF electronics. After a few years of active observation, United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS) has taken the decision to introduce a GaN technology family in its portfolio. Based on its extensive experience of III–V technology and the intensive support and collaboration with partners and European research institutes, UMS has developed the capability to produce state-of-the-art GaN devices and circuits. The present paper will summarize the current status achieved and illustrate it with a few representative examples. Aspects covering material, devices, and circuits will be addressed.

.....................................

Conclusion:
UMS has developed two families of GaN technologies for application between 2 and 20 GHz with state-of-the-art performances. The first generation is due to be qualified in 2010 and 2011 for half- and quarter-micron gate-length devices, respectively. In both cases, first demonstrators have been designed and fabricated already that demonstrate the performances achieved. Further generations are planned later with improved performances and features. Additionally, at two more families are planned to address higher frequencies and specific applications, respectively.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 May 2011 06:48

Karan M wrote:Have to say, the Su-30 MKI upgrades w/AESA, new avionics, new RVV missiles for air superiority & the multirole Rafale with AESA for strike would make an awesome combination. ...

+1

IMO, Su-30MKI and Rafale compliment each other much more better than Su-30MKI and EF combination. SU-30MKI is IAF's current "air-domiance" fighter, which will be superseded by the PAK-FA/FGFA in the 2020s+.

Majority of the retiring (or recently retired) combat aircrafts of the IAF are ground attack planes, such as the MiG-23BN, MiG-27ML/UPG, and MiG-21M/MF. That's more than 10 squadrons worth. So looking from the ground-attack need, Rafale is a better choice.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 May 2011 07:40

imo, MKI should wait for GaN. It is worth it.. as it is its current radar is pretty good and we can afford to wait.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 May 2011 08:15

SaiK wrote:imo, MKI should wait for GaN. It is worth it.. as it is its current radar is pretty good and we can afford to wait.

With a fleet of 270 Su-30MKIs, it would be quite impossible to have all of them of the exact same standards ... similar capabilities but not the exact same standards. It is likely only part of the MKI fleet will be upgraded with the current AESA technology, while part of the MKI fleet will be upgraded with the GaN T/R AESA (when available) down the road. This is because it will take quite a few years to upgrade all of the 270 MKIs. There may even be a second upgrade (or many more minor/incremental upgrades) of the older AESA (and even GaN AESA) down the road. With a large fleet, IAF does not need to wait.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 May 2011 09:21

The Bars radar as assessed by pretty much everyone, the US (Red Flag), French etc is a very powerful system as is. The AESA is supposed to come from 2016 onwards per some reports, whereas the Russians initially proposed a Bars upgrade and transitioning to AESA, wonder which approach was finally chosen. But recent reports suggest that it may well be an AESA. The Bars itself is a hybrid system, using a conventional TWT driven Tx system while it uses AESA style receive path, giving it good gain and performance but being reliant on a TWT limits reliability (as on the Captor, PESA RBE-2 etc). What an AESA will bring is at the very least greater reliability and limited maintenance, plus more software driven flexibility and performance. Now, if they revise the electrical system to put in a full specs AESA derived from the one on the FGFA as currently in tests, we'll have a monster on our hands. A LPI capable radar, with some 1500 modules (Tx/Rx) and higher average power than the current set, equal if not better gain, and similar aperture size. It will be a very powerful system, and I hope they adopt the Irbis style moving gimbals. The Bars radar weighs 650 kg, and hence it is entirely possible that they could fit in an AESA within the same weight range. The PAK-FA/FGFA radar is stated (per the Russian edition of Popular Mechanics) to have a range of 300-400 km against a fighter class target, and track some 60-100 targets, plus have the whole gamut of Air to Air and Air to Ground modes. With its design optimized for a stealth fighter, it will have LPI modes as well. The AN/APG-77 has similar performance, with range dropping when used in LPI mode, but still a very respectable figure, superior to earlier gen MSA radars eg RDY2, Zhuk ME by almost 50-75% depending on different public articles. The FGFA if it follows the same approach as the US took, will have a very sensitive ESM suite to act as the aid for the primary sensor, with the radar being used only in a very controlled fashion for precise ranging and the like against emitting targets. Now consider such a radar, in the MKI and the tactical options really open up. One also hopes the MKI will bring sensor fusion. India is working on it in its AEW program, whereas the Russians have it in the Su-35.