India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shyamd » 29 Apr 2011 02:48

Muppalla wrote:US probably is not looking at just commercial value and it wanted more deeper involvement in India's defense and strategic affairs using all means. Nuke deal with mixed results was the start but the juggernaut was stopped by some mean Indians on the MMRCA. India will keep buying the US stuff to keep the US firms in good humor so that they will openup more in terms of tech transfers. It is a lesson learnt from US perspective. There will be a fallout for US not able to sell the jets. We will see that slowly but surely.

The report specifically stated F16, F18 DID NOT MEET requirements of IAF.

Anyways all GoI is trying to do imo is balance everything out.

C130s, P8, artillery stuff and other small stuff heere and there = US
MRCA, Helicopters, HDW Sub upgrade = EU/EADS/Germany
Mirage upgrade or swap with Rafale, Scorpene Areva brought in for nuke reactors= France
Su30s/FGFA/PAKFA/MRTA/Gorky/Bailout of that rocket manufacturing company/Su 34s etc = Russia
LCA, MCA, Dhruv, Akash SAM, IAC etc - Indian!

You want our money? Work for it america, stop bitching - maybe relaxation of tech restrictions STILL IN PLACE and pressure on Pak to conform will be a start to show that you value us as a partner.

I suppose it goes for all of our partners.

Well done GoI. National interest at heart! :mrgreen:
Last edited by shyamd on 29 Apr 2011 02:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby neerajb » 29 Apr 2011 02:48

jamwal wrote:Mig25 - Sonali Bendre


:eek: :eek: :eek:

Curious to know the reason why it looks like Sonali bendre to you. MiG-25 is nowhere slender like the subject in question, but it's like a beast. It's twin semi fused huge nozzles gives semblance to TFTA Jenna Jameson though. :mrgreen:

Cheers....

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Raja Bose » 29 Apr 2011 02:58

kmkraoind wrote:Here is the link of Ashley Tellis who had written an article on MMRCA. It is 2 MB file.

www.carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf


Tellis mian should take some of his own advice since he is howling about "political costs":

No matter which way India leans in the MMRCA contest, keeping the
IAF’s interests consistently front and center will ensure that its ultimate choice
will be the right one
. A selection process that is transparent, speedy, and focused
on the right metrics will not only strengthen the IAF’s combat capabilities, but
it will also earn the respect of all the competing vendors and their national
patrons. Some of them will be disappointed by India’s fi nal choice, but those,
alas, are the rules of the game
.


All this :(( :(( from commentators about how amirkhan's feelings are hurt and how it will lead it to arm India's enemies is in the same vein of BS as Pakistani claiming that if it is not paid a billion $$ as baksheesh it will only strengthen the hands of the extremists and jihadis.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby V_Raman » 29 Apr 2011 04:03

what is the possibility that saudi arabia might sell its typhoon fleet if they get the F-15 order in?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 04:42

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BM-PPKEgMFk/T ... artoon.jpg
what is farval in swede? and what are the russians saying per this arr...roar thoughts?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby srai » 29 Apr 2011 04:45

Bharadwaj wrote:
aditya.agd wrote:Pros for EF:
2. Smallest radar cross-section
3.

errr....... are you sure of this ?



According to Rafale FOX THREE No. 4 publication, it says the following regarding its stealthiness:

The French fighter is definitely a ‘low-observable’ aircraft, and its systems will set new standards in terms of low-observability and survivability. Every effort has been made by the engineers to mini-mise its infrared and radar signa-tures. The objective was not to make the aircraft undetectable or to match the Radar Cross Section (RCS) of the F-117 or B-2, but to significantly reduce the detection and tracking range of hostile air- defences. Accordingly, the air- frame has been carefully shaped to cut down its RCS. Other signa- ture reduction measures include state-of-the-art Radar-Absorbing Materials in various areas of the airframe, ‘sawtooth’ edges on the foreplanes, on the flaperons, and on some access panels and doors, specially treated canopy, plus ‘double-S’ shaped air-intake ducts to hide the engine com- pressor faces. Thanks to the Hot Spot treatment, infrared signature is minimised, and the Snecma M88 turbofans have been optimised to limit infrared detectability.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 04:46

from that hindu/tellis article:
“there is no reason why the administration should bend backwards to accommodate India.”


All those 300 odd pages of blah blah note was to make us GUBO to uncle /PERIOD.

QED

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby srai » 29 Apr 2011 04:56



There is a good summary of Rafale's features on Rafale FOX THREE No. 14 publication:
  • M88 (Modular, ECO and TCO, Uprated version)
  • Sensors (AESA, Passive interception, SPECTRA, AREOS, Damocles)
  • Armaments (Scalp, Buddy-buddy tankers, AASM, Méteor, AM39 Exocet, GBU-12/22/24 LGB)

Also, other editions of Rafale FOX THREE has info on its air-to-air combat with F-15/16/18 etc.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Bhaskar » 29 Apr 2011 05:20

Vishnu wrote:Milind ... 17 years ago ... I considered myself a king of the flame wars on the first generation of Usenet groups out there. With the benefit of age, and on account of having been burnt on a couple of occasions, I have come to realise that if I believe in something, and I know it to be the truth, then that is good enough for me.

Can we please use this thread to discuss MMRCA, something so many of us have followed with bated breath for years.

I really don't want to engage you or others on Barkha, her work or her beliefs other than directing you to her statement at http://www.ndtv.com/page/?type=barkha-statement . You are also free to write to her at barkha@ndtv.com

For those interested, I am anchoring a special show on MMRCA at 7 pm this evening, nothing spectacular, but still ...

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor
NDTV

Thanks Vishnu. I enjoyed the show. Always good to have someone like you posting in BR.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sourab_c » 29 Apr 2011 05:23

Vishnu's program on the MMRCA is on the NDTV website now.

LINK : Dog Fight for India

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Bharadwaj » 29 Apr 2011 06:08

srai wrote:

According to Rafale FOX THREE No. 4 publication, it says the following regarding its stealthiness:

The French fighter is definitely a ‘low-observable’ aircraft, and its systems will set new standards in terms of low-observability and survivability. Every effort has been made by the engineers to mini-mise its infrared and radar signa-tures. The objective was not to make the aircraft undetectable or to match the Radar Cross Section (RCS) of the F-117 or B-2, but to significantly reduce the detection and tracking range of hostile air- defences. Accordingly, the air- frame has been carefully shaped to cut down its RCS. Other signa- ture reduction measures include state-of-the-art Radar-Absorbing Materials in various areas of the airframe, ‘sawtooth’ edges on the foreplanes, on the flaperons, and on some access panels and doors, specially treated canopy, plus ‘double-S’ shaped air-intake ducts to hide the engine com- pressor faces. Thanks to the Hot Spot treatment, infrared signature is minimised, and the Snecma M88 turbofans have been optimised to limit infrared detectability.


This will be an important aspect in the bomb truck part of the mmrca's multi role mission. I hope Mod/Iaf also presses for any active cancellation options that the French may have developed "quietly". There have been noises about it being developed in the past but things have gone silent on that front which could mean that a breakthrough was made and the capability exists.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Guddu » 29 Apr 2011 06:23

SaiK wrote:Well, we will have to go per contractual agreements. The fact that we didn't sign CISMOA and other end user agreements means we respect those legal bindings. If USA is thinking of lessons, then it should know where it stands and how it respects as well those legal understandings, and what it means.

If they talk about fallouts, then you know who are the real losers. It is always customer who wins, no matter what value of the business deal is.

Political twisting of words and tit for tat-ing sounds very pakish, that I doubt uncle will chase after.


My devious mind suggests this is the last chance for unkil to modify the CISMOA stuff to India's liking...if they accomodate Indian concerns they might still make a back door entry.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Guddu » 29 Apr 2011 06:42

shiv wrote: All this freedom of speech sheedom of speech stuff is American inspired bullshit. Ask one resident of America to post on this forum that he wants to see an American president killed and then see how much fun it is? So please. It is freedom of speech only as long as one's own balls remain untouched.


Thought its worth commenting on the freedom of speech issue.. One is the president of a sooper power, the other is a $#!*. Presidential security is serious stuff...'nuf said. Same goes for MMS...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Guddu » 29 Apr 2011 06:59

Rakesh wrote: Rafale: Katrina (for being a real firecracker with just the right potency :) )


katrina is not very french....might you suggest something else..

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Craig Alpert » 29 Apr 2011 07:02

^^LÉONE - Feminine form of French Léon, meaning "lion."

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Prasad » 29 Apr 2011 07:06

Guddu wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Rafale: Katrina (for being a real firecracker with just the right potency :) )


katrina is not very french....might you suggest something else..


And how is Rambha russian? :mrgreen:
Pardon the OT please.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gurneesh » 29 Apr 2011 07:10

Saab and LM seem to be the biggest losers in this down-select as apart from extra c-130 order there is nothing in the near future to be ordered from the two.

Mig is merged with Su (?) so they already lost their identity and we may not see a new Mig again.

Boeing on the other hand has a lot of lucrative deals on table like C-17, Chinook, Apache, extra P8. A total that could come close to MMRCA. Plus baring CISMOA etc will not have that big an effect (as we could use same/similar coms equipment as C130).
IMHO all these will go to Boeing to keep Unkil Interested. Plus they would seriously improve our capability to operate against China (given the lack of road infrastructure).

I guess being gracious in defeat will bring more riches to the Unkil land, but we could count on them shooting their own foot (unfortunate for MMRCA).

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2011 07:28

Prasad wrote:Pardon the OT please.

Thank You Prasad :) BTW, what is OT? I keep seeing that all over BRF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2011 07:29

Guddu wrote:
shiv wrote: All this freedom of speech sheedom of speech stuff is American inspired bullshit. Ask one resident of America to post on this forum that he wants to see an American president killed and then see how much fun it is? So please. It is freedom of speech only as long as one's own balls remain untouched.


Thought its worth commenting on the freedom of speech issue.. One is the president of a sooper power, the other is a $#!*. Presidential security is serious stuff...'nuf said. Same goes for MMS...


Exactly. It is the other person's power versus your limited influence that determines your "freedom". That is why freedom of speech is only selective and most often a sham. An Amriki catchphrase that pretends that freedom is American. The more influence you have the less freedom of speech the other guy has. I thought this should be clear to everyone. On a forum like this - your freedom of speech to curse Barkha Dutt is not bravery or a great sign of moral uprightness but is plain impolite if you are trampling on another forum member's sentiment. In other words you are using your freedom to behave like a boor.

You have the freedom of speech to call my father a liar on this forum and I do not have the influence to do anything to you although you might not call Dubya a liar because of the "sooper power" connection. On this forum all you would achieve by calling my father a liar would be hurting my sentiment. You could then challenge me to sue you if I objected. In fact it would be easy for me to get lawyer friend to send one letter to the Webmaster with a printout of your post and you would be the one who is getting banned. It's that simple. You see - there are 3 people involved. You, me and the forum owner. If I can't get you I blame the forum owner and ensure that he gets you out. Or he will need to start answering lawyers letters. Is that so difficult to figure out?

You (not you personally - I use "you" in a figurative sense) may hate Barkha Dutt but if some other forum member is likely to be put off - you could decide to be polite rather than getting chaddis in an enormous twist. All protestations of freedom of speech and willingness to be sued are clearly not courage - as you have pointed out yourself. You first check whether the person you want to criticize has power and influence (she is not the president of a sooper power) and then go ahead a curse because you feel it is safe and after that claim that you are willing to be sued when a forum member objects.

That is plain misbehavior or trolling. Nothing more than that. And fails to take into account that you are using a forum paid for and run by someone else for this who is sitting there like a stationary target that can be hit by any disgruntled person. It has happened before and can happen again. So please do not misuse this imaginary freedom of speech.

Lets talk about MRCA. Not Barkha Dutt.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Krishnakg » 29 Apr 2011 07:33

Vishnu's program on the MMRCA is on the NDTV website now.

LINK : Dog Fight for India


Coming from an organisation like NDTV, very surprising to see that there has been absolutely no background research or simple fact checking done before broadcasting this 22 minute video.
There were gaping holes, wrong facts, the presenter had no clue what he was talking about and the whole show was repeatedly captioned with "Boeing not selected". They even had basic facts like full form of AESA as "Airborne Electronically Scanned Array" instead of "Active ..."...sheesh ! It was a ill conceived and even more ill executed, sensation mongering show with little substance. Makes one wonder on the standards of journalism at NDTV now.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby tejas » 29 Apr 2011 07:48

OT= off topic, Boss.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 07:54

sourab_c wrote:Vishnu's program on the MMRCA is on the NDTV website now.

LINK : Dog Fight for India

The bearded gentleman on the right rightly agrees he is not an expert but just an observer. Thank goodness... what can a conglomerate do for our strategy? I just dont understand his strategic thinking basis. First thing, it has been categorically stated by MoD that it is purely based on IAF technical reports, and that is the first line of argument that should bother any strategist.

- walk away after spending 42k crore - who is walking way and what is he talking?
- conglomerate - what they can do? what is he saying? what is that he sees there is a strategy or anti-strategy here?
- buy out a company? where was that offer? RFI/RFP never stated that, so why bring in something that never existed?
- whining.... :(( :(( ?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2011 07:59


Hari Seldon
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Hari Seldon » 29 Apr 2011 08:06

From twitter @muladhara

>>Mint: Roemer reportedly wrote that India’s aviation industry was “2 to 3 decades behind the US+other Western nations.” http://bit.ly/jfuR2V

Well, now that puts in context Sri Roemer's allegedly 'deep disappointment' at America not getting the opportunity to lead into out of darkness and into light in the aviation sector.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 08:07

gotcha ! thanks shivji. He has an awesome background.. however, I felt a strong negative force in his thoughts regarding the short listing of these two a/cs, and there are hidden answers that still remains.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2011 08:11

Actually Vishnu's program brought out the real confusion about this deal.

is this a deal to help the Air Force meets its obligations for the next 3 decades based on their expert assessment?

Or is it to enter into a sort of country to country marriage while the air force "gets something"?

To me it seems like it started off as the former, but because of the cost people are asking how much of the latter we get.

I don't have the answer.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Muppalla » 29 Apr 2011 08:24

I feel like NDTV did not give much time to Vishnu and he could not clearly explain the graphics and there is no real time to ask more relevant questions. 22 minutes is extremely less for such a show.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby arnab » 29 Apr 2011 08:24

shiv wrote:Actually Vishnu's program brought out the real confusion about this deal.

is this a deal to help the Air Force meets its obligations for the next 3 decades based on their expert assessment?

Or is it to enter into a sort of country to country marriage while the air force "gets something"?

To me it seems like it started off as the former, but because of the cost people are asking how much of the latter we get.

I don't have the answer.


MMS and the NSA also seem to think that it is the former, no matter what the detractors say.

Selection as per IAF evaluation only.

IAF’s technical report and its assessment by the MoD were put up recently to Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh and National Security Adviser Shiv Shankar Menon for the process to move forward. Both are reported to have endorsed the process as per the technical evaluation of the IAF as the user of the aircraft.


http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories994.htm

The 'loss' of a $10-$15 b deal while 'disappointing' for the US does not imply a strategic cost IMO. What is the point of getting out of an earlier 'single supplier' scenario only to morph into another new single supplier? We have the money, we will buy the best unfettered technology that we can get. simple.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 08:27

Krishnakg wrote:
Vishnu's program on the MMRCA is on the NDTV website now.

LINK : Dog Fight for India


Coming from an organisation like NDTV, very surprising to see that there has been absolutely no background research or simple fact checking done before broadcasting this 22 minute video.
There were gaping holes, wrong facts, the presenter had no clue what he was talking about and the whole show was repeatedly captioned with "Boeing not selected". They even had basic facts like full form of AESA as "Airborne Electronically Scanned Array" instead of "Active ..."...sheesh ! It was a ill conceived and even more ill executed, sensation mongering show with little substance. Makes one wonder on the standards of journalism at NDTV now.



Hi Krishna ... thanks for your feedback ... Will keep it in mind. The AESA bit was my error. Particularly silly since I have personally checked out various modes of the AESA radars on the F/A-18 and F/16 when flying on the jets on several occasions. But to say the show was ill executed and sensation mongering with little substance is unfair, perhaps `biased.' The show had the following contents ...

1. A basic graphic identifying the winners with a handful of stats.
2. A discussion on the winners and what they bring to the Indian Air Force.
3. A graphic identifying the losers with source based information on why didnt make the downselect.
4. A discussion on the process of selection.
5. A graphic identifying unanswered questions ... raising the question of how the 2 who made the cut didn't have fully operational AESA radars at the moment but the US birds did.
6. An explanation (linked to the unanswered questions gfx) of how the MoD has now clarified that 42,000 crores is a notional figure on the value of the deal and that the total value is likely to go up.
7. A discussion on the decision making process and how India didn't feel it imperative to buy either American or Russian.
8. A discussion on the offset requirements and what India is attempting to do with this ToT.
9. A rather incomplete look at how the MMRCA acquisition will affect the balance of power in the region ...

Quite a lot ... I honestly believe ... for a programme lasting 22 minutes ...

I would be happy to answer any other criticism ... hopefully substantive ...

Thanks
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby VinodTK » 29 Apr 2011 08:29

U.S. eyes India arms deals beyond fighter setback
The decision shuts U.S. companies out of one of the decade's most hotly pursued arms deals, even as Washington expands strategic ties with India, partly as a hedge against China's growing military clout.
:
Some analysts such as Bryron Callan of Capital Alpha Partners theorized the U.S. government had been unwilling to transfer as much sensitive electronic warfare and radar technology as India had hoped. If so, this would not be as relevant in deals that do not involve fighter planes.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2011 08:30

Vishnu wrote:I would be happy to answer any other criticism ... hopefully substantive ...



Vishnu - for all the tech that TV uses - do you have no control over the start and stop of the graphics? It looked like they were making you wait. I mean anyone who does a conference presentation generally has some control over the timing of graphics.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 08:35

The French fighter is definitely a ‘low-observable’ aircraft, and its systems will set new standards in terms of low-observability and survivability. Every effort has been made by the engineers to mini-mise its infrared and radar signa-tures. The objective was not to make the aircraft undetectable or to match the Radar Cross Section (RCS) of the F-117 or B-2, but to significantly reduce the detection and tracking range of hostile air- defences. Accordingly, the air- frame has been carefully shaped to cut down its RCS. Other signa- ture reduction measures include state-of-the-art Radar-Absorbing Materials in various areas of the airframe, ‘sawtooth’ edges on the foreplanes, on the flaperons, and on some access panels and doors, specially treated canopy, plus ‘double-S’ shaped air-intake ducts to hide the engine com- pressor faces. Thanks to the Hot Spot treatment, infrared signature is minimised, and the Snecma M88 turbofans have been optimised to limit infrared detectability.

people who simply weigh a rafale/ef vs MKI in terms of less money for MKI discount the fact that Rus is lagging behind in some of these areas, making efforts to catch up and will not share all the DESIGN secrets of the PAKFA...we will get something but not all. its better we also open channels to raf/ef makers via this deal and we will again get something but not all.

technology building blocks and design knowledge is vital for the success of the AMCA and modifications to our Pakfa-I, as well as Tejas Mk2...as well as UAV projects

getting channels into latest western tech is perhaps the whole idea why western vendors were encouraged for this deal.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 08:45

I also do not subscribe to the theory that "this will hurt indian lobby efforts in US"

reasons being:

in commerical domain, american cos are coming on their own into emerging markets in search of growth. whether its black n decker selling bathroom taps, deWalt selling power tools or GE selling LM2500 they need no pushing or urging. whatever barriers they need to break, they have their own well honed lobbying machinery to make it happen.
we need to do nothing much other than sit here and grow fast as a economy and make it business friendly - the bees will come

in defence sector, again its totally upto GOTUS what they want to release to us AND what all they hand out to pakistan. no amt of lobbying or pleading has gotten GOTUS to amend its ways and cut the oxygen supply to the Munna after 9/11.

infact I am not sure what indo-american lobbies want to achieve? some of the "community leaders" seem to be onlee interested in getting photographed with governors and senators, serve in govt appointed groups, raise their own ego, LinkedIn and corporate profile, do fundraiser dinners, quietly develop their business contacts... :mrgreen:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Muppalla » 29 Apr 2011 09:00

Singha wrote:infact I am not sure what indo-american lobbies want to achieve? some of the "community leaders" seem to be onlee interested in getting photographed with governors and senators, serve in govt appointed groups, raise their own ego, LinkedIn and corporate profile, do fundraiser dinners, quietly develop their business contacts... :mrgreen:


+++++10000000

In that persuit while lobbying for India they lobby NPAs in India - Give lectures about giving up Nukes and JK.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 09:02

Hi Sai ... I don't have negative thoughts per se about the acquisition of these aircraft ... and I have no doubt that as far as this deal is concerned, the IAF got the jets that they wanted. Both the Rafale and the Typhoon are incredible jets.

My only point is this ... and this is something that never really came up on my programme: I believe there is merit in the argument that the selection process was NOT objective. There may be truth in the argument that according to the 600 + technical parameters planes were assessed on .. NONE of the jets made it. Similarly, if the IAF was willing to be lenient, ALL the jets could have made the cut. Instead, its possible that the IAF picked and chose the technical factors on which to reject some of the competitors while downplaying the technical shortcomings of those jets that did make it. How else could the Rafale and the Eurofighter make it on the basis of having far from FULLY developed and operational AESA radars?

To be sure ... I entirely accept the argument that the IAF SHOULD get the jet is truly wants ... in which case ... this entire tender process is a joke ... where companies end up spending upwards of 25 million dollars to fly down jets to get them evaluated in what is, realistically, a lost cause for them.

As an example .. Did the IAF really need the F-16 to fly down to India for it to be failed on the grounds that its design life was reaching an end ? (Assuming that this was the thinking in the IAF). Did the Gripen really need to fly down a prototype to India for the IAF to be convinced that the jet was still a product in development? Or is it really fair that the jets that did badly in the technical trials were assessed on the basis of one bad day (the Leh high altitude tests for example). CISMOA and other intrusive US laws were ALWAYS present ... If the IAF was concerned about these (assuming that they were) ... then why invite the US jets for the tender in the first place ?

Somebody told me yesterday ... slightly exaggerated ... but interesting nonetheless ... "Its like the IAF was told to go to a showroom to buy a sports car and they said `Give me that gorgeous red Ferrari !" Sure, the Ferraris in this case, the Rafale and the Typhoon are incredible platforms ... NO disputing that ... its just the process I am questioning ...

Thanks
Vishnu

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 09:06

yeah, gotus ways it is, and desi lobbies are a waste. but, when it comes to chippanda, they do a wonderful job in getting it done per their strategies.

when, we have directly indicated rejection, it means gotus are very clear on what they want from antony babu and not what it can deliver per antony babu. khan power is way too much, to play this level of rejection, where we have clearly said few things on khan crafts-

1. performance problems
2. lesser upgraded/growth
3. US Laws! [a direct hit here].

We have said it very clearly here!., and this I think is raking up many strategic thinkers and planners. This is a real hard precision strike with 0.0001 CEP.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 09:08

Vishnu, there is a slight misunderstanding.. I was referring Menon sahib and not you. His answers has a lot of hidden information.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby abhishek_sharma » 29 Apr 2011 09:13

Vishnu wrote: CISMOA and other intrusive US laws were ALWAYS present ... If the IAF was concerned about these (assuming that they were) ... then why invite the US jets for the tender in the first place ?


We thought they would change their rules. I can turn the argument around and say: "We never said we would sign intrusive US laws. They could have declined the invitation and saved their $25 million".

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby VinodTK » 29 Apr 2011 09:14

Good job Vishnu, I liked your show. It would be nice if you can do a follow on show that talks about the strategic implications of the deal.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 09:14

shiv wrote:
Vishnu wrote:I would be happy to answer any other criticism ... hopefully substantive ...



Vishnu - for all the tech that TV uses - do you have no control over the start and stop of the graphics? It looked like they were making you wait. I mean anyone who does a conference presentation generally has some control over the timing of graphics.


Hi Shiv ... we had LOTs of technical problems ... I regret that you noticed ! No, in our setup ... anchors dont have control over changing graphic points ... Tragic but true.


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