India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 13:04

Vishnu, A friend of mine sat in a F1 car, and developed paralysis of one side of the body soon after.High g can perhaps do some damage to neural networks. The friend is now recovering after a year of therapy. At 9G I wonder what happened to your neural networks, but definitely you are making sense to me. Good luck with your life ahead.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 13:11

Manish .. whoever's side I am on ... its not your side ! You can choose to be ignorant and accuse me of bias or you can debate the point with me. If you knew me, my work, or how extensively I have reported the role of our armed forces, you wouldn't dare accuse me of doing anything which went against our national security interests or that of our forces.\

However, that does not stop me from trying to analyse and debate some things ... the MMRCA tender being one of them.

Yes, the Gripen NG has been my favourite. So what ? We aren't entitled to personal favourites ? And does the Air Force care what my personal favourite is ?How have ANY of my reports or for that matter any of my documentaries linked to the MMRCA race betrayed bias ? The folks to lose out the most from this would be the MMRCA competitors but NONE of them have had ANY concern on my reports. Why should you?

I have no heartburn about any of the jets losing. I have consistently argued ... even today ... I want the MMRCA competition to happen ... and both the shortlisted platforms are outstanding. So wheres the bias ?

Since the post you mark out, Eurofighter has been in touch with me regularly. They regret that they couldnt offer a sortie for the Jet Set series. If you had seen the Aeroindia episode of Bigger Higher Faster, you would have noticed a piece to camera in the cockpit of a Typhoon and an interview with the German Defence Minister pushing the Typhoon. Eurofighter have also sounded me out on the possibility of inviting me to RIAT to get an idea of the capabilities of the Typhoon.

You didn't know any of this did you ? Neither did you bother to ask. Instead you decided to flame me. Was this necessary ?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 13:14

sanjeevpunj wrote:Vishnu, A friend of mine sat in a F1 car, and developed paralysis of one side of the body soon after.High g can perhaps do some damage to neural networks. The friend is now recovering after a year of therapy. At 9G I wonder what happened to your neural networks, but definitely you are making sense to me. Good luck with your life ahead.


Thanks Sanjeev ... Glad you think I am not entirely nuts !

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gurinder P » 29 Apr 2011 13:15

Hey Gents,

Let's pull back on the throttle now, this thread is about the Eurocanards and not "Lets dissect everything Vishnu did in one 22 min program." He said he would review his program for bias and improve on it, and lets give him some room to breathe and we can always see what he does in the future and offer ADVICE and not dismantle the man.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Apr 2011 13:18

Most welcome, Vishnu, and Most definitely you are not nuts in any sense.Wish you the best, and I am sure to get a premonition tonight in a dream, showing me which of the two will be finalised.I will let the forum know tomorrow.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 13:18

On a more serious note ... does anyone know when the next fighter tender is out ... I need to plan my next rides ... carefully ensuring that I pick the 4 that don't make the cut !!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gurinder P » 29 Apr 2011 13:22

Vishnu wrote:On a more serious note ... does anyone know when the next fighter tender is out ... I need to plan my next rides ... carefully ensuring that I pick the 4 that don't make the cut !!


Come to Canada and see if the F 35 is really what it is cracked up to be. I seriously think that piece of baloney is more of a step backward from the raptor than Mao's great leap forward (in case somebody doesn't get the ref, the great leap forward turned out to be a great flop backwards) :mrgreen: .

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Neela » 29 Apr 2011 13:24

Vishnu wrote:
Since the post you mark out, Eurofighter has been in touch with me regularly. They regret that they couldnt offer a sortie for the Jet Set series. If you had seen the Aeroindia episode of Bigger Higher Faster, you would have noticed a piece to camera in the cockpit of a Typhoon and an interview with the German Defence Minister pushing the Typhoon. Eurofighter have also sounded me out on the possibility of inviting me to RIAT to get an idea of the capabilities of the Typhoon.
You didn't know any of this did you ? Neither did you bother to ask. Instead you decided to flame me. Was this necessary ?



Vishnu , if you ever visit Halbergmoos for any reports on the Eurofighter, let me know!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 29 Apr 2011 13:47

Hey Vishnu,
How about a C-17 vs the IL-476 comparision? or a fly-in with each participant.

How about an Apache vs Mi-28 comparision?

How about a Chinook vs the new Mi-26 comparision?

How about a C-130 ride or a P-8I ride?

Can you ask the IAF if they'll let you fly in the Phalcon?

You should start a series on India's defence equipment:
1 Army: MBT tanks with the IA, ICVs with IA, Howitzers with the IA. Assault Rifles with the IA.
2. Navy: Take each type of ship that the IN has class wise - Say a Delhi class, Talwar class etc (But start with the smaller ships first so that you can say that the next one is even better instead of saying that the next one is less capable)
Do a story on the Naval and other commandos of the various forces.
3. The different fighter aircraft that the IAF flies.

If there is someone who can do it, and do it well it is probably you. I didn't quite like the forceful jokes that those two guys dish out who do that show on NDTV good times. Don't like their presentation style. Hey if they can get access, so can you boss.

Love to hear from your side.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 13:55

Gagan ... Agree with all your ideas ... and I will visit this concept in the future. Lets just say I have something else in the works ... though it wont be remotely defence related .... Cheers.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Apr 2011 14:14

Vishnu all I know is that you didn't call MMRCA tender process a joke until rafale and ef2k were shortlisted and others kicked out. Secondly you still avoided answering why are you feeling such pains 'cause f16 company had to spend 25 million for the indian trials. Anybody would be happy that IAF got to fly/test these aircrafts for free, if the companies didn't mind bearing expenses why are you so worried about their (wasted?) money.................

Hmmm and you accuse me of flaming you, interesting.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 14:27

Manish ... please read what I have written and understand the CONTEXT in which I have voiced a concern with the tender process. That context ... the shortlist of two types without operational AESAs ... has materialised NOW. Why then would I criticise the tender process earlier ? Also .. how do YOU know the rejected companies are not worried about their wasted money ?

C'mon ... criticise by all means ... base it on something substantial ...

Also .. UNDERSTAND ... my basic argument ... I am glad the shortlist has happened. May the best jet win. And yes, I have a new favourite in the shortlist as well ... and no, this will not mean that any future reports I do will be biased !

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 14:32

Vishnu, I just saw your program. Do you think it will be better if you would have reviewed Chinese and PAF in a bit more detail with and overall prospective instead of just pitting J20 and F16s against the 2 Indian contenders? I mean even when they join Airforce, they will NOT be pitted against these J20 or F16.

J20 is many years off. Which is the Chinese equivalent to take on Rafale or EF? F16s are more likely to face Mig 29s. So strategically we have an answer to anything that Chinese or Pakistanis can throw at us right now. Question is what role the new bird will fill? Will it enhance or defenses by bringing in new capabilities or they are just filling numbers for the depleting fleet?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 14:43

vishnu...

so rather thinking in opposite direction...didnt we give them a good chance to fair well...didnt we despite knowing who is clear winner...shouldnt they be happy and appreciative...and sporting, may be they are...but we are too sensitive about pain in the world?

So you wonder why in sports...there is ranking of teams as per the contest and venue of contest...still there are a lot of teams, and sometimes upsets...in your way rather than creating a platform to compete, statistically we should announce a winner...

But this time it didnt happen? So why question the viability of contest or its moral background...it happened because it was the way a contest occurs despite already announced by many unofficial sources who shall be the winner and why?
Are you disappointed because you didnt get kick of unexpected or a setback? Or a kick of expected by corrupted an American fighter...there is more to it than dissapointments, money spent and entertainment value...and the winners.

But you know what matters to me most...IAF is happy...so if IAF is happy, I'll consider it end which is in process of an happy ending, for majority...
As per AESA is concerned, we'll get it in MMRCA final select...but there is no need to buy substandard, underdeveloped or uncooked collage fighter with AESA attached.

Maybe world should do a sports event of defence machinery...rather than doing displays and ranking them on specs...MMRCA was one of such a rare sports event...but more meaning to it...teams spent money...they have to for the cup...

So I am still questioning your common sense...
Last edited by manum on 29 Apr 2011 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby amit » 29 Apr 2011 14:47

Manish_Sharma wrote:Vishnu all I know is that you didn't call MMRCA tender process a joke until rafale and ef2k were shortlisted and others kicked out. Secondly you still avoided answering why are you feeling such pains 'cause f16 company had to spend 25 million for the indian trials. Anybody would be happy that IAF got to fly/test these aircrafts for free, if the companies didn't mind bearing expenses why are you so worried about their (wasted?) money.................

Hmmm and you accuse me of flaming you, interesting.



Boss why don't you (and some others) give it a rest?

May I ask what's your objective of visiting this thread? Knowing more about the down listing and its implications or debating with Vishnu about his alleged biases or not?

Sorry to say this but by now it's becoming annoying background noise here.

As others have said, Vishnu is entitled to his favorites and opinions just as much as you, me or anyone else. Why don't you respond to the posts instead of the poster?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sanku » 29 Apr 2011 14:49

Who said Unkil was giving us the AESA. This after C 130 exp. Who are we kidding. Do we all come across like complete *********s

Come on, is this open season here now?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Mahendra » 29 Apr 2011 14:50

Surely the (approx)25million $ spent by the makers of the solah dwarfs the amount spent by GOTUS in giving away free Solahs to most favoured and valued non NATO ally. LM can go and crib to GOTUS and ask for compensation, perhaps getting the Pawkistanis to pay for one of the toys they get for free would more than cover the expenses incurred by LM. Perhaps an advanced Ahmediya detecting F-16 sold to Sargodha carpet bomb the unbelievers squadron will do the trick.

Better late than never, the priority now is to get the best deal and get the bird flying in Indian colours, hope nobody throws a spanner in the works and delays the process by another decade.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby UBanerjee » 29 Apr 2011 14:55

The shortlist eminently makes sense given the various issues with the others. Although IMO there really isn't a need for a short list at all, as the Eurofighter has crippling problems of its own (and the Libyan conflict has only made this more public). The Rafale made sense from the start, out of the planes on offer. It also fills a more important role in the Indian arsenal- the omnirole capabilities are much stronger and India has a stronger need for A2G capacities in the upcoming decade.

The teens don't make sense given the CISMOA and the other agreements which can't be done away with. And the airframes certainly are a little aged compared to the Rafale/EF. However some of the contempt for the teens in this thread is a little ridiculous. They remain landmarks. The F-16 in particular is probably the most significant fighter of the past four decades.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 14:56

Sri wrote:Vishnu, I just saw your program. Do you think it will be better if you would have reviewed Chinese and PAF in a bit more detail with and overall prospective instead of just pitting J20 and F16s against the 2 Indian contenders? I mean even when they join Airforce, they will NOT be pitted against these J20 or F16.

J20 is many years off. Which is the Chinese equivalent to take on Rafale or EF? F16s are more likely to face Mig 29s. So strategically we have an answer to anything that Chinese or Pakistanis can throw at us right now. Question is what role the new bird will fill? Will it enhance or defenses by bringing in new capabilities or they are just filling numbers for the depleting fleet?



Sri ... We ran out of time on the show ... That entire balance of power bit didnt come out properly ... There were many more graphics points .. The PAKFA versus the J-20 ... The J-10 versus the Su-30 MKI ... The F-16 Blk 52 + versus the MMRCA etc ... Valid points, Thanks

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Apr 2011 14:59

amit wrote:Boss why don't you (and some others) give it a rest?

May I ask what's your objective of visiting this thread? Knowing more about the down listing and its implications or debating with Vishnu about his alleged biases or not?

Sorry to say this but by now it's becoming annoying background noise here.

As others have said, Vishnu is entitled to his favorites and opinions just as much as you, me or anyone else. Why don't you respond to the posts instead of the poster?


Amit! Vishnu wrote a post on this thread, and I didn't agree to certain things, for example his sadness that f 16 had to spend money on its trials in India.
Now there are two ways to look at it:
a.) Good Indian AF had a good look at it.
b.) Poor american company had to waste so much money on it only to be rejected..........

can't I oppose it? Why are you getting annoyed and angry?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Apr 2011 15:00

I am told this as a "fact" from a current flier. He said, if you have a chance of flying American, European and Russian plane, you will definitely choose the European one, especially if Germans and French have made it. He said that the weapons from europeans have not been lagging. Infact, they come with less issues.

Then there is an old debate, which reared its head when I was interacting with a European AF support (technician). He said, "the" planes have fared much better than the US ones in many multilateral excercises (in which he participated) and complained about the politics of the fighter market.

I am not vouching, just relaying.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 15:03

This is what the outgoing US Ambassador said a few hours back in Delhi ... and NO, quoting him does not mean I endorse an American product !!

"We deeply respect the indian procurement process... we are however deeply disappointed on the outcome.. we feel in America that, AESA technology, the technology that can lock on to your target, 80 90 miles away...,successfully engage, release and move on.. and countering the kind of radar in the air and from the ground to protect the aircraft and the pilot is second to none in the world.... and i do not believe anybody else has that capability right now... we believe that value, technology, protection, defense needs, we provide the best equipment and the best price and the best value in the world with the military- military relationship."

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 15:05

with onlee 18 of the a/c scheduled to be delivered in fly away condition and HAL to assemble 108 , the CKD/SKD/raw materials supply chain stretching back to 100 of suppliers in europe/us/asia , managing that chain by OEM, HAL pulling its pants up and establishing the new production line, training of people, QA, payment schedules, repair & test facilities, flight training, weapons training and handling ... all emerge as major factors determining how quickly we can get our 1st India made birds into service.

one thing is sure, we need to work in parallel from the day deal is signed to setup the India end of this vast operation so that by time when 1st squadron is delivered from europe, the pipeline here is already in process of making first few planes and all spooled up.

we might as well send 15 pilots in first round to learn in europe rather than just a few instructors and keep doing that in batches until a full training regime is established here.

overall, 1000s of people will involved in India.
Last edited by Singha on 29 Apr 2011 15:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby amit » 29 Apr 2011 15:05

Manish_Sharma wrote:Amit! Vishnu wrote a post on this thread, and I didn't agree to certain things, for example his sadness that f 16 had to spend money on its trials in India.
Now there are two ways to look at it:
a.) Good Indian AF had a good look at it.
b.) Poor american company had to waste so much money on it only to be rejected..........

can't I oppose it? Why are you getting annoyed and angry?


I'm not getting annoyed or angry, don't misunderstand me. However, this comment:

I'm sure if gripen was chosen you'd be celebrating and not calling IAF's tender as a joke.


seemed to be focused on the poster and not the contents of his post. And so was IMO your responding comment.

I'm not one to find tough debating abhorrent. However, my personal take in coming to this thread - and I suspect that true for most at this stage - is to look for new news on the down select. And quarrels such as this one only distracts from this.

Take it for what it's worth, I'm not going to respond to whatever comment you post in response as otherwise I'd only be contributing to the noise I'm complaining about.

And yes please don't take it personally, it was just friendly fire from my part. At the end of the day, you, Vishnu, myself and everyone else here are all on the same team. :)
Last edited by amit on 29 Apr 2011 15:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sanku » 29 Apr 2011 15:06

The AESA tech offer is non reliable indicator. Remember C 130 electronic saga.

They wanted to put the bait of AESA to get CISMOA etc through -- Indian babu's are unfortunately a little to smart.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 15:08

Roger Rose, CEO, Lockheed Martin India:

"Sure we're still reviewing the document we've received... actually the embassy received with a list of non-compliances.. We're trying to asses the issues. We felt that the F 16 IN was fully compliant.. We knew we it was a very competitive price so we're still in the analysis mode right now. We'll take a look at it.. then we've asked for..officially asked for a debrief through the embassy for the situation so..

Its been a very strict process.. its been a very professional process.. And the endpoint of the process, the next step were the letters we were issued last Wednesday.. I think thats been the last official step that came out. We did receive a letter last year that also addressed some questions on non compliances and there are differences in that letter and the letter the embassy received on Wednesday.. So thats what we're trying to figure out.. trying to figure out where we stand."

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 15:09

with one flick of a software knob before delivery a radar can take many forms ... things that work at 90 miles over maryland could get degraded by the heat, dust, atmospheric haze, moisture and monkey menace to 60 miles to equalize things with the block52 F-solah and keep the munna happy.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby amit » 29 Apr 2011 15:10

I'm no expert, but common sense tells me that if money is not a problem and if the sellers are willing, it's always better to buy an aircraft which started first flying in the 21st century (2000 and 2003) rather than one which started flying in the 20th century. Correct me if I'm wrong but we'd be flying those planes in anger in the 21st century right?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 15:17

Overall, we would be suckers to buy F16 at a billion dollar cost, whereas Pakistan gets it for free.... Will provide psy ops opportunity to Pakistan. Good that we stayed clear of F16 atleast.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 15:21

Dr Dinesh Keskar, Boeing:

"Obviously whenever it is announced, it is a surprise and a disappointment as went through all the trials and everything but as ambassador said we respect the decision... but certainly we still had the product and the value that is more important..as you know right now, this decision was only on technical considerations we are waiting for the de-brief.. and we can comment only after that.. but we are going to move on and we are going to work on more projects, like i just said."

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 15:32

Any comments from Swedish / Russian companies... ?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Will » 29 Apr 2011 15:35

Sri wrote:Overall, we would be suckers to buy F16 at a billion dollar cost, whereas Pakistan gets it for free.... Will provide psy ops opportunity to Pakistan. Good that we stayed clear of F16 atleast.



Well at last the GOI shows some B***S by not cowing down to uncle. I can never fathom why we would even evaluate US aircraft in the first place as a purchase would be indirectly subsidising the PAF. We would become the laughing stock of the world. All this strategic partnership with the US is BullS***. The US has and will always have only its interests in mind.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Will » 29 Apr 2011 15:38

Vishnu wrote:This is what the outgoing US Ambassador said a few hours back in Delhi ... and NO, quoting him does not mean I endorse an American product !!

"We deeply respect the indian procurement process... we are however deeply disappointed on the outcome.. we feel in America that, AESA technology, the technology that can lock on to your target, 80 90 miles away...,successfully engage, release and move on.. and countering the kind of radar in the air and from the ground to protect the aircraft and the pilot is second to none in the world.... and i do not believe anybody else has that capability right now... we believe that value, technology, protection, defense needs, we provide the best equipment and the best price and the best value in the world with the military- military relationship."



Yea right. Someone should make him explain why the Rafale wins in exercises with the teens everytime.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 15:40

Sri wrote:Any comments from Swedish / Russian companies... ?


Gripen folks respect the decision ... arent saying too much ... No response at the Russian numbers I tried. Thanks

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manish.rastogi » 29 Apr 2011 15:45

Damn!This thread moves way too fast!
I remember reading on BRF only that Rafale has the capability to produce 30 or 40 aircrafts a year currently!
Can this is anyway help us in getting the first 18 jets fast or helping in speeding up production of 106 jets by HAL?

Assuming Rafale wins!(It looks damn sexy though :P)

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Will » 29 Apr 2011 15:47

Vishnu wrote:
Sri wrote:Any comments from Swedish / Russian companies... ?


Gripen folks respect the decision ... arent saying too much ... No response at the Russian numbers I tried. Thanks


Vishnu do you think the Swede's will be roped in as consultants on the AMCA? There were reports of them being sounded out on this matter.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sum » 29 Apr 2011 15:48

^^ Suspicious if Amriki companies are calmly accepting the decision ( atleast publicly) in a SDRE like fashion, given that they would have already been having wet dreams of selling $$ worth of F-xx to India and use it to subsidize the Paki batches!!!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Will » 29 Apr 2011 15:51

sum wrote:^^ Suspicious if Amriki companies are calmly accepting the decision ( atleast publicly) in a SDRE like fashion, given that they would have already been having wet dreams of selling $$ worth of F-xx to India and use it to subsidize the Paki batches!!!


Well dreading the day when another scandal is going to break out and this whole deal scrapped :(. Uncle SAM is not going to take this lying down.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Will » 29 Apr 2011 15:52

manish.rastogi wrote:Damn!This thread moves way too fast!
I remember reading on BRF only that Rafale has the capability to produce 30 or 40 aircrafts a year currently!
Can this is anyway help us in getting the first 18 jets fast or helping in speeding up production of 106 jets by HAL?

Assuming Rafale wins!(It looks damn sexy though :P)


Of them all the Rafale is the best looking babe oooops bird :wink:

chackojoseph
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Apr 2011 16:14

I will be doing a series of write ups on this tender. This is my first opinion on the basic question if US should be offended and India prostrate for their misdeed.

Buying Fighter Aircraft is not a part of strategic partnership


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