India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 29 Apr 2011 22:35

Rakesh, that is roughly true.

However, Antony-ji has closed the door on the possibilities for MMS by the very public down-select. It might also explain the suddenness with which it was all rolled out. The heat that will need to be taken by MMS in reopening the door and inviting F-teens again into the fray -- it will be worse than Bofors fallout.

The noises coming out of LM and Boeing are more conciliatory than offended. The USG on the other hand and the pseudo policy-wonks like Tellis are the ones who are more offended because of their egos and expectations. If post 1998 history is indicative, after the initial knee-jerk Madam Halfbright like utterances, dust will settle and further engagement will continue. Some sane heads will prevail, and accept that they will have to deal with India differently than they do with their minions.

Gagan,
Excellent point that the F-teens must have "failed" on technical evaluations and that is not a very good sign for their market. "Failed" because of where the bar might be set for technical evaluations. My suspicion is that the SH must have faced problems coming from land-based operations because in its current form it is optimized for carrier operations alone. My guess is that it had many issues in desert and Leh. Much of it because too many aspects of operating environment on ground are radically different and not accounted for in SH. Not sure where the F-16 might have "failed" -- but could also be similar source of issues.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 22:38

Rakesh wrote:The F/A-18 Super Hornet has already entered service with the Royal Australian Air Force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RAAF_Super_Hornet_Amberley.jpg



these guys are too impatient, they should have waited a bit...or is it that many english speaking nations dont like french? Its bit odd for rafale not to be selling, some kind of english nations conspiracy? but then why Australia will opt for typhoon, when even Mother britain is not opting for it...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 29 Apr 2011 22:41

^ Aussies are munna#1 they have to field the Unkil sourced equipment sometimes even before the Unkil's forces. :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rahul M » 29 Apr 2011 22:44

Avid, sand got inside the supparbugger during desert trials and affected the radar system.


Prem Kumar wrote:
Ashely Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said the move

Why is an endowment for "International Peace" fretting over weapon sales? Shouldn't they be worrying about human happiness index, peaceful co-existence and the protection of Walrus'es?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 29 Apr 2011 22:47

manum wrote:will India's decision will be followed up by Brazil?

if we are able make typhoon cheaper, will UK chuck JSF and rather order typhoon, made in India?



a) Brazil had decided in favor of Rafale over SH and then succumbed to pressure to reopen the bids. Appears that IAF has similarly concluded what Brazilians had.

b) Oh that is a can of worms! Germany is one of the biggest partners in the EF. The oft overlooked aspect of this bird is that single country. Unsure why so many have focused on the UK role in EF and not the German. The very fact Germany is the partner, one could conclude the following: 1) There is going to be very stiff opposition to adding India to the consortium because Germany is going to lose a significant amount of its say and production share. Germany and UK currently both have 33% share of production work. 2) Germans are highly averse to purchasing non-german items. The preference order is German, Wester European, American. Two years ago in Munich, I noticed that there was the smallest share of any japanese cars on the road. Upon asking, I found out "people prefer German vehicles". I asked - "what about Ford?" to which came the reply --"Oh, Ford makes their cars here in Germany and it is why people buy it". Funny thing was this -- to sell the Volvo SUV in Germany, it was rebadged as Ford and sales took off! So India as a true partner in the EF Consortium -- Personally, I speculate it to be a wet dream. It can happen, but highly doubt it will.

Rakesh will love this --
Remember the process for MMRCA: 1) IAF Technical Evaluations, 2) Downselect to those that meet the requirements, 3) Preference for L1 of those that meet the requirements. Things are looking really good for Rafale (unless somehow EF costs magically shrink)
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 29 Apr 2011 22:48

Unlike all other contenders in F-teens' case the EUMA and CISMOA simply meant a nuclear delivery platform would have to be placed under Unkil's supervision something which we haven't even done with our military/research reactors after the nuke deal. Again there are 'reasons' and there are 'ostensible reasons'. :mrgreen:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ramana » 29 Apr 2011 22:52

Rakesh, Gagan and RahulM, Think of the H&D effect on TSP Fizzilya when they find out even advanced versions of their crown jewel trucks were not down selected.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 22:55

Avid wrote:a) Brazil had decided in favor of Rafale over SH and then succumbed to pressure to reopen the bids. Appears that IAF has similarly concluded what Brazilians had.


Humm...that is one bad example, I must ignore to keep my unreal optimism...

Avid wrote:b) Oh that is a can of worms! Germany is one of the biggest partners in the EF. The oft overlooked aspect of this bird is that single country. Unsure why so many have focused on the UK role in EF and not the German. The very fact Germany is the partner, one could conclude the following: 1) There is going to be very stiff opposition to adding India to the consortium because Germany is going to lose a significant amount of its say and production share. Germany and UK currently both have 33% share of production work. 2) Germans are highly averse to purchasing non-german items. The preference order is German, Wester European, American. Two years ago in Munich, I noticed that there was the smallest share of any japanese cars on the road. Upon asking, I found out "people prefer German vehicles". I asked - "what about Ford?" to which came the reply --"Oh, Ford makes their cars here in Germany and it is why people buy it". Funny thing was this -- to sell the Volvo SUV in Germany, it was rebadged as Ford and sales took off! So India as a true partner in the EF Consortium -- Personally, I speculate it to be a wet dream. It can happen, but highly doubt it will.


This is a great example of a proud race, It'll be great partnership of Germans and Indian.......Anyways in my last visit to Germany, I had seen a Scorpio though...
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 29 Apr 2011 22:56

Rahul M wrote:Avid, sand got inside the supparbugger during desert trials and affected the radar system.


Thanks Rahul, I had suspected something like that. Likely the engines also don't stand up as well either.

A little birdie had told me that the SH was having breathing difficulties and finding it very difficult to carry anything of value at Leh.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 22:58

Avid wrote:unless somehow EF costs magically shrink

I bet.. that will happen in the near future.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby milindc » 29 Apr 2011 22:58

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Gagan and RahulM, Think of the H&D effect on TSP Fizzilya when they find out even advanced versions of their crown jewel trucks were not down selected.

Already Fizzilya is issuing RFP ...

RFP for darker shade of brown

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 29 Apr 2011 23:01

^ They have already outsmarted us, iirc yesterday they successfully phyrred Raa$d cruije mijjjile; I wont be surprised if Gul and Zaid Hamid are making claims on a talk show about how will this mijjile shoot down the Rafale/Typhoon, a deaf and dumber would make a flash animation showing the same and 100 other reatrds on jootube posting "Bakistan Paindabaad". :rotfl:
Last edited by negi on 29 Apr 2011 23:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rahul M » 29 Apr 2011 23:02

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Gagan and RahulM, Think of the H&D effect on TSP Fizzilya when they find out even advanced versions of their crown jewel trucks were not down selected.

psyche was an important factor why I was strongly against the F-16. a cocky paki with nuke bums = disaster for the world.

@ manum, ugh ! not that race,aryan BS please. strongly suggest you edit that post.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 23:03

morning npr, was like .. 'cause the khans never fielded f22 raptors. now where did that come from?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 29 Apr 2011 23:03

manum wrote:This is a great example of a proud race, It'll be great partnership of Germans and Indian...We can satisfy the local Germans saying we both are Aryans....Anyways in my last visit to Germany, I had seen a Scorpio though...


Certainly you may give that a try, not likely to change much.

EF order would be aimed at boosting their economies to the extent possible. Yes, there will be offset requirements. However, it is highly unlikely that we will be members of the consortium. With the current economic condition in Spain, Italy, etc. it is highly unlikely they will be willing to give up any percentage of their production work share. One possibility that has been mentioned to me is including India into EADS not just in EF consortium. This would be done as a means to securing India as a partner-customer for many other product lines. However, I do not see how this works without us bundling things.

Same goes for Dassault. However, it is likely that they may (with slightly greater probability than EF) be inclusive because this is their only lifeline.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby svinayak » 29 Apr 2011 23:04

Avid wrote: Avid, sand got inside the supparbugger during desert trials and affected the radar system.
[

Thanks Rahul, I had suspected something like that. Likely the engines also don't stand up as well either.

A little birdie had told me that the SH was having breathing difficulties and finding it very difficult to carry anything of value at Leh.

Also solah did not fire up in the morning after a cold winter night

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 23:05

@ manum, ugh ! not that race,aryan BS please. strongly suggest you edit that post.[/quote]

sorry but that was intended as a tagline for reasoning to masses...i was anyways bsitting...edited...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 29 Apr 2011 23:07

SaiK wrote:
Avid wrote:unless somehow EF costs magically shrink

I bet.. that will happen in the near future.


Can you imagine people in the member countries throwing a fit and wondering why their countries are paying so much more for the EF when they are selling it for so much less to the Indians? No matter how they try to swing the argument that it is because the EF for IAF is being produced in India, it is a sticky argument for politicians and EADS alike.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2011 23:12

Avid wrote:The noises coming out of LM and Boeing are more conciliatory than offended. The USG on the other hand and the pseudo policy-wonks like Tellis are the ones who are more offended because of their egos and expectations. If post 1998 history is indicative, after the initial knee-jerk Madam Halfbright like utterances, dust will settle and further engagement will continue. Some sane heads will prevail, and accept that they will have to deal with India differently than they do with their minions.

You are right...only Unkil appears to be majorly offended, while both LM and Boeing are accepting their loss quite graciously.

We may have to elevate Anthony Saar to sainthood on BRF. Anyone got Photoshop? We may have to put a halo around him :)

Rahul M wrote:Avid, sand got inside the supparbugger during desert trials and affected the radar system.

Avid wrote:Likely the engines also don't stand up as well either. A little birdie had told me that the SH was having breathing difficulties and finding it very difficult to carry anything of value at Leh.

You have gotta be joking! :-o After all that sales talk about being the most advanced aircraft in the competition, Rakhi cannot even stand a little heat and a little dust? Tsk Tsk...in the beauty parlour she belongs then.

Acharya wrote:Also solah did not fire up in the morning after a cold winter night

Wonder if that effects the F-Solah that is in service with Pakistan?

Avid wrote:Rakesh will love this --
Remember the process for MMRCA: 1) IAF Technical Evaluations, 2) Downselect to those that meet the requirements, 3) Preference for L1 of those that meet the requirements. Things are looking really good for Rafale (unless somehow EF costs magically shrink)

Please don't toy with my emotions :) BTW, I am still waiting for cost sharing on barfis. I need to review offset agreements before barfi production begins. Perhaps we can do a technology transfer, so we can make them local/in-house. The first 18 barfis from a store and then remaining 108 to be made with our own expertise.

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Gagan and RahulM, Think of the H&D effect on TSP Fizzilya when they find out even advanced versions of their crown jewel trucks were not down selected.

Saar, that never even occurred to this SDRE!! :D You are so correct.

Brown pants it is for them as milind has suggested....

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rahul M » 29 Apr 2011 23:14

koti wrote:Ref:Debal and Prabhu.

From the past few pages, I just realized how incumbent the repulsion to US of a is in general.
I feel US is seen equal a threat to India as China is.

I believe it is serious time US has to do some thing to distance itself from the this kind of paranoidism it is being associated with
.

they can start by not subsiding the military of a terrorist nation and ask India to give in to every demand of its rakhel. second thing would be to stop offering Indian lives as sops to suits its own needs. I am not even talking of the numerous attempts at openly sabotaging our weapon programs or FBI conveniently 'losing' evidence of ISI's involvement in '93 blasts or the numerous wikileaks cables. in short, Indians will start viewing US in more favourable light when GOTUS stops treating us as a semi-hostile nation.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Manny » 29 Apr 2011 23:17

manum wrote:
This is a great example of a proud race, It'll be great partnership of Germans and Indian...We can satisfy the local Germans saying we both are Aryans....Anyways in my last visit to Germany, I had seen a Scorpio though...


Proud race? Aryans? What century are you in? Sheesh!
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 29 Apr 2011 23:17

Well you guys underestimate Fizzilya and it's immense ability to dellude itself; arrey after so many GUBO sessions they can now easliy bend far enough to blow themselves and feel happy about it; they will put a new spin on this and claim as to how Unkil did not supply it's latest and greatest to SDRE banias.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 23:23

Avid wrote:Certainly you may give that a try, not likely to change much.

EF order would be aimed at boosting their economies to the extent possible. Yes, there will be offset requirements. However, it is highly unlikely that we will be members of the consortium. With the current economic condition in Spain, Italy, etc. it is highly unlikely they will be willing to give up any percentage of their production work share. One possibility that has been mentioned to me is including India into EADS not just in EF consortium. This would be done as a means to securing India as a partner-customer for many other product lines. However, I do not see how this works without us bundling things.

Same goes for Dassault. However, it is likely that they may (with slightly greater probability than EF) be inclusive because this is their only lifeline.


but what will they do when there will be no work to share? All I mean to say, I think this is last foreign type India is buying after FGFA...and next customer for fighter class is going to be, umm china? if not china and India, who else is there to keep productions running steadily for more than a decade? rest all manufacture their own planes and do friendly duels....

so this thing is going for long...they can get creative, and let us do what we are good at, and them doing what they are good at...and that would be getting benefits of not being employed, and still getting paid...and eating the benefits of copyrights on each plane...while we are also providing them cheaper planes in return to keep, with value added... :D,

after 18 aircrafts anyways India is going to manufacture the rest of it and that will be major chunk of aircrafts they will be producing...so why not get creative about the who does what best...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 23:24

Manny wrote:
manum wrote:
This is a great example of a proud race, It'll be great partnership of Germans and Indian...We can satisfy the local Germans saying we both are Aryans....Anyways in my last visit to Germany, I had seen a Scorpio though...


Proud race? Aryans? What century are you in? Sheesh!


you can kill me for it...but it was just a marketing tagline...for argument sake...I didnt know I'll get such averse faces... :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sanku » 29 Apr 2011 23:28

negi wrote:Well you guys underestimate Fizzilya and it's immense ability to dellude itself; arrey after so many GUBO sessions they can now easliy bend far enough to blow themselves and feel happy about it; they will put a new spin on this and claim as to how Unkil did not supply it's latest and greatest to SDRE banias.


Negi-saar deserves a Haakim degree in understanding Paki piskology. (And I am serious) -- they are probably hoping this means they get more F 16s for free (since the lines have to be run to provide dole to locals in US and the planes need to be produced anyway, and this might very well happen)

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Dilbu » 29 Apr 2011 23:31

Sanku wrote:
negi wrote:Well you guys underestimate Fizzilya and it's immense ability to dellude itself; arrey after so many GUBO sessions they can now easliy bend far enough to blow themselves and feel happy about it; they will put a new spin on this and claim as to how Unkil did not supply it's latest and greatest to SDRE banias.


Negi-saar deserves a Haakim degree in understanding Paki piskology. (And I am serious) -- they are probably hoping this means they get more F 16s for free (since the lines have to be run to provide dole to locals in US and the planes need to be produced anyway, and this might very well happen)

I had predicted that a few pages back but don't think it will happen because Munna has run out of tricks in Af-pak it seems.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2011 23:44

From Keypublishing Forum;

Pedro Paulo Rezende once said (I guess on this forum : http://defesabrasil.com/forum/ ):
-Rafale flew half of the sorties of the F/A-18E for exactly the same job, demonstrating its omnirole capability ;
-It could do everything the Indian wanted (only one other competitor could do so) ;
-Rafale enjoyed an unquantified superiority over the competitors in Leh, for example using half the runway distance needed by the S Hornet.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ManuJ » 29 Apr 2011 23:51

It's really interesting to see how many of the posters think that Antony has somehow pulled a fast one on MMS with the downselect. To think that Antony will take this decision without consulting MMS and Madam! People grossly and unfairly underestimate MMS.

Coming to the technical discussion, here are some areas where EF is ahead of Rafale -

- More powerful engines. EF can claim to supercruise, a capability that IAF wants in its 5th gen planes.
- Space for a significantly more powerful radar (about 50% bigger?)
- Active Towed Radar Decoy (ARTD). This was supposedly part of IAF requirements for MMRCA.
- Arguably better IRST and FLIR package in CAPTOR.
- More room for future growth.
- As for Rafale's advantage in A2G, there is nothing in EF's airframe that limits it from being as good or even better at A2G. EF is still evolving, which may actually be an advantage for IAF.
- Larger and more diverse offering of missiles and armaments.
- Supposedly better performer in short take-off and landing.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sohels » 29 Apr 2011 23:52

Honestly, I'm a little bummed. I thought Obama's recent visit to India was no less significant than Nixon's visit to China. Concerns about America's fickleness and interference, though valid, ought to be tempered by the great importance the US now attaches to its relationship with India. In my opinion, this relationship more closely resembles US-Israel than US-Pakistan. The F-18 has the best operational AESA radar on offer and arguably the best strike capability amongst the six. It is a mature, battle-proven platform with a solid future and costs much lesser than either the Rafale or the Typhoon. While I'm happy that both these latter aircraft have made the shortlist, I think the F-18 should have been included as well.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Dilbu » 29 Apr 2011 23:54

In my opinion, this relationship more closely resembles US-Israel than US-Pakistan.

Is this a joke? :lol:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 30 Apr 2011 00:03

Rakesh wrote:
Avid wrote:Rakesh will love this --
Remember the process for MMRCA: 1) IAF Technical Evaluations, 2) Downselect to those that meet the requirements, 3) Preference for L1 of those that meet the requirements. Things are looking really good for Rafale (unless somehow EF costs magically shrink)

Please don't toy with my emotions :) BTW, I am still waiting for cost sharing on barfis. I need to review offset agreements before barfi production begins. Perhaps we can do a technology transfer, so we can make them local/in-house. The first 18 barfis from a store and then remaining 108 to be made with our own expertise.


I cannot believe that you remember my offer to cost sharing on the barfis :-) Perhaps, it is an outcome of long time membership with minimal postings.

If it is only 126 barfis that we are distributing ... I am willing to sponsor direct store purchase :-)

I started out liking the Rafale the most, but had hardly any hope given Dassault's own lack of energy. Bet, Dassault is as surprised as us and might be willing to cost-share the barfis :lol:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Apr 2011 00:03

It ain't over till it's over.


The selection was done by the IAF fair and square on performance, and not for political consideration or end-user licensing conditions. After final selection, it goes for cabinet approval and the PM can then use the clause of "national interest" and promoting bilateral interests to force the IAF to a particular vendor. It could be ivan or unkil, and I suspect both of them are now working on the PM and cabinet. The only fallout will be political on the general election for the Kangress, but if the opposition is weak, the effect of outside influence becomes greater as there is no consequence for the Kangressis. This is a time when democracy has to be the strongest with an effective opposition.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Mort Walker » 30 Apr 2011 00:05

Avid wrote:
I cannot believe that you remember my offer to cost sharing on the barfis :-) Perhaps, it is an outcome of long time membership with minimal postings.

If it is only 126 barfis that we are distributing ... I am willing to sponsor direct store purchase :-)

I started out liking the Rafale the most, but had hardly any hope given Dassault's own lack of energy. Bet, Dassault is as surprised as us and might be willing to cost-share the barfis :lol:


Remember, you must distribute 126 barfis to each BRF member who participated in this thread!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby MarcH » 30 Apr 2011 00:27

ManuJ wrote:It's really interesting to see how many of the posters think that Antony has somehow pulled a fast one on MMS with the downselect. To think that Antony will take this decision without consulting MMS and Madam! People grossly and unfairly underestimate MMS.

Coming to the technical discussion, here are some areas where EF is ahead of Rafale -

- More powerful engines. EF can claim to supercruise, a capability that IAF wants in its 5th gen planes.
The EJ-200 incorporates better technology than the M-88-2, ECO corrects this
- Space for a significantly more powerful radar (about 50% bigger?)
63%, one additional processing channel exclusivly to deal with ECM, plus the ability to use Meteor to it's full potential. Rafale lacks 2-way datalink for Meteor + shorter radar range makes Rafale dependent on external target data for maxrange engangements.
- Active Towed Radar Decoy (ARTD). This was supposedly part of IAF requirements for MMRCA.
- Arguably better IRST and FLIR package in CAPTOR.
At the moment Rafale has no fix installed FLIR at all. The seekers of MICA IR are used instead. The old sensor became obsolete, the new one not yet developed. An improved version of PIRATE is already in development, ironically for one of the other competitors, Gripen NG
- More room for future growth.
- As for Rafale's advantage in A2G, there is nothing in EF's airframe that limits it from being as good or even better at A2G. EF is still evolving, which may actually be an advantage for IAF.
Rafale offers a better hardpoint layout. 5 heavy/wet stations. Tiffy has only 3. Means no heavy bombs + LDP and external tanks at the same time.
- Larger and more diverse offering of missiles and armaments. EF offers choices for weapons package. ASRAAM vs. Iris-T, StormShadow vs. Taurus. In the coming years Paveway IV(UK) vs LJDAM (Germany), not a bad thing to keep ammunition costs down
- Supposedly better performer in short take-off and landing.


Some comments in blue.
I would like to add that the French dropped the integration auf their HMCS and some other features to get "some sort of AESA" ready. Direct voice input is a nearly exclusive feature for Tiffy. Oh and "full a2g capablity in 2018 in British service" includes electronic attack mode for the AESA.
But in the end technical details are meaningless. Both fulfilled the requirenments, now it's the L1 bidder that wins.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 30 Apr 2011 00:48

sohels wrote:Honestly, I'm a little bummed. I thought Obama's recent visit to India was no less significant than Nixon's visit to China.


Are you kidding me? We were a pariah nation before Obama's visit? No one wanted to come do business with us?

Concerns about America's fickleness and interference, though valid, ought to be tempered by the great importance the US now attaches to its relationship with India.


Yes, US does attach important to its relationship with India. However, that relationship is strictly bilateral and has not changed US interaction with TSP in any shape or form. For that matter nor has its relationship and interaction changed with respect to China. Does that make the relationship with India less - no. Though beneficial both ways, it is a strictly bilateral relationship and not in any way strategic.

In my opinion, this relationship more closely resembles US-Israel than US-Pakistan.

ugh! no. Please do not bring in this Israel-India parity business... how we are same, have same problems, and how our relationship with US is same. It is not. There is some aspects with Israel that India can relate to, but no equivalence as such. As for relationship with US -- sorry, it is nothing similar. Annually, Israel gets billions of dollars in free arms as part of military aid and that too come with with offsets! How is this relationship same? If you are going to make statements like that, you must come up with more than your perception and feeling -- hard facts on how this relationship resembles. IMHO US-India relationship is US-India relationship. It is unique in its characteristics. That uniqueness is equally good and also the source of much heartburn in both countries because they are having to learn to deal with each other rather than draw from other experiences.

The F-18 has the best operational AESA radar on offer and arguably the best strike capability amongst the six. It is a mature, battle-proven platform with a solid future and costs much lesser than either the Rafale or the Typhoon. While I'm happy that both these latter aircraft have made the shortlist, I think the F-18 should have been included as well.


What good is a battle proven platform with exceptional AESA if it cannot get off the ground in Leh, and/or the radar complains about the discomfort proverbial beach sand in the underwear kind of problems. SH is an exceptional platform - Yes. However, the design itself is optimized for carrier operations. Changing the landing gear is not sufficient to optimize it for ground-based operations. Should IAF be willing to suffer through learning pains with the SH in the fleet? I think not under current circumstances with seriously depleted strength.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 30 Apr 2011 01:03

Mort Walker wrote:
Avid wrote:
I cannot believe that you remember my offer to cost sharing on the barfis :-) Perhaps, it is an outcome of long time membership with minimal postings.

If it is only 126 barfis that we are distributing ... I am willing to sponsor direct store purchase :-)

I started out liking the Rafale the most, but had hardly any hope given Dassault's own lack of energy. Bet, Dassault is as surprised as us and might be willing to cost-share the barfis :lol:


Remember, you must distribute 126 barfis to each BRF member who participated in this thread!


:rotfl: :rotfl: Not at the rate at which this thread keeps moving.

Be more fun for Rakesh and I to do MRCA type technical evaluation of all the candidates to pick the final 126 for 1 barfi each! :twisted: We will let you know the 600+ parameters soon enough and you can submit your candidacy :twisted:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 30 Apr 2011 01:03

@March:

1) Is Rafale planned for 2 way datalink in the future? Would be a great addition to have to make midcourse updates to the Meteor. When you refer to external target data, I am assuming you are referring to AWACS/AEW&C aircraft?

See this about Rafale's sensor fusion. Pretty interesting...
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/04/laad-2011-rafale-sensor-fusion.html

2) Is Rafale planned for a fixed FLIR in the future? I tried searching for the PIRATE FLIR, but could not come up anything significant.

Avid wrote:Be more fun for Rakesh and I to do MRCA type technical evaluation of all the candidates to pick the final 126 for 1 barfi each! :twisted: We will let you know the 600+ parameters soon enough and you can submit your candidacy :twisted:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 30 Apr 2011 01:07

In the midst of all these processes, we accepted the khan snub on our face by not allowing Israel to sell their AESA radar for LCA-Mk2. Now that was a very very very very poor decision by unkill to say especially they know they are contending for this mega deal.

why did they do it? as many say, it is not over.. the dhoties will be torn again on other defence systems, especially for the BMD radars and arrows from Israel. This game has only begun,
Last edited by SaiK on 30 Apr 2011 01:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 30 Apr 2011 01:08

Rakesh wrote:From Keypublishing Forum;

Pedro Paulo Rezende once said (I guess on this forum : http://defesabrasil.com/forum/ ):
-Rafale flew half of the sorties of the F/A-18E for exactly the same job, demonstrating its omnirole capability ;
-It could do everything the Indian wanted (only one other competitor could do so) ;
-Rafale enjoyed an unquantified superiority over the competitors in Leh, for example using half the runway distance needed by the S Hornet.


My birdie's information confirms the above post. The breathing and payload difficulties faced by SH.

Imagine the change from operating on oceans vs. heat and sand of the desert; as well as the high altitude and oxygen deprivation. Rakhi is more for Bollywood operations than for Kashmir.

About the F-16s for TSP -- they are restricted to some bases in TSP, and do not need to operate from high altitude. Look from the other side of the border, they can launch their operations from quite a few airbases within the narrow strip of land that the country is. IAF, on the other hand has quite different set of constraints for its operations.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 30 Apr 2011 01:11

Rakesh wrote:
Avid wrote:Be more fun for Rakesh and I to do MRCA type technical evaluation of all the candidates to pick the final 126 for 1 barfi each! :twisted: We will let you know the 600+ parameters soon enough and you can submit your candidacy :twisted:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Rakesh will be tasked with handling PR and Vishnu's complaints about the meaningless process of having to make you guys compete for the barfis. :mrgreen:


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