News - Osama Bin Laden - killed In Pakistan

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 May 2011 17:29

So ISI was keeping OBL in this safehouse in a comfortable retirement in a hill station with a pleasent environment, protected by PMA Kakul and with a Military Hospital next door.

And the ISI-Pak Army top brass were saving him for the rainy day.

Kiyani gave OBL up to the US I suspect.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2011 17:32

Even Indian bases have QRTs, even in "peace location"

Exactly, so the possibility of the ST-6 not getting into a firefight with the local troops is very remote, unless the TSPA were clearly told to hold back and not fire on the attackers.. Seems like Kiyani's b@lls were squeezed on this one by Unkil and he had to reluctantly give up his trump card in front of his own eyes and earn both world censure ( for the location of Osama safehouse) and "militant" censure ( for betraying the ummah leader)!!!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 May 2011 17:35

But the QRT will get activated if the Base itself is attacked.

But there would be a Al Qaida QRT to protect OBL's house. Pakistan army will never be directly involved. OBL's dirty thirty (his 30 odd bodyguards) protected him. The US had reportedly made inroads even into this group! They had captured one of the dirty thirty and duly interrogated him some months earlier (I forget when).

Surely the Al Qaida QRT must have made its move, but they were taken out at night.
The whole area was dark with a power cut. The US must have destroyed the power station nearby right at the beginning.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2011 17:36

Gagan wrote:Or Kiyani was informed just before or during the Operation, and told to not do anything or else there would be repercussions directed personally at him.

I am dead certain Kiyani was not informed. This operation was top top secret - no question of informing kiyani - that would be a monumental blunder because Kiyani could have muddied the whole thing by making some announcement to protect Paki army interests prematurely - like Osama killed in Afghanistan and innocents hit in Abbottabad. And Ombabs reputation and re election chances would have gone with that. Worse if the op ha failed in some way. Success may have a 1000 fathers - but Pakis are not among them

If I was a senior Paki I would definitely make it difficult to let the US claim success. Threatening Kayani would have been silly because that would involve the need to carry out the threat after an operations whose PR success had already been spoiled by Kiyani. And any action against him would be quoted as American incompetence.

Kindly stop believing that any Paki was informed. It would have been too stupid to do that.

Until Osammy was caught the US and Ombaba were not 100% certain. they were 99% certain. Why would they involve Kiyani and risk loss of face?

Only Pakis will want to spread the story that Kiyani or Pak army knew. it saves their face Why the heck are WE desperately trying to do that when the US has clearly stated that NO non US people were informed. If the US is lying there - hay maybe Osammy is alive and wiil turn up later no? Just like neshant said. Why curse him?

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2011 17:38

But if a massive attack ( with explosions) is happening 100 yards from a major military academy + general military area, wont the QRTs react by instinct( esp if it is happening for FORTY minutes) unless they were told to hold back explicitly?

Would assume that any such massive activity even few K.M.s ( forget 100 yards) from NDA/IMA would trigger the nearest QRTs to be rushed to check out the reason and engage the attacker

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 May 2011 17:39

Gaganji. Thanks. Nice reading.

9. Kiyani is informed that they have taken out OBL

"Taken out" as in killed or as in bundled in to a helo?

Can make two movies: One upto the point he is "taken out" and second starts with him being interrogated and other terrorists being "taken out"

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 May 2011 17:41

They couldn't have had that house crawling with Armed Arab fighters. The locals would have noticed.

They must have kept that entire area very low profile, with people who went in and out being very polite to the people outside.

Pakistan has several foreign returned pakistanis who build elaborate mansions like that, but this was even more secure with the cameras and high barbed wire walls.

So OBL was a bit unprotected. The ISI must have thought that the depth within Pakistan would be protection enough.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2011 17:43

Indian/GoI view of the matter:
Pakistan 'had no option but to join' operation against Osama

Pakistan had no option but to assist United States forces while they carried out the operation against Al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad, according to a senior official in the Indian administration and a diplomat who is dealing closely with the neighbouring nation.

"Pakistan was told about the Abbottabad operation at the last minute by Americans, just about the time they were ready to strike. They had no option but to join in," he said.

The officer, who knows Pakistan quite well, says the Abbottabad operation has helped Americans in a big way. But in spite of Pakistan's help to the US, the "fears and suspicions between the two nations won't go away."

The entire operation to kill Laden is full of ironies.

If the operation was carried out by Americans only, it shows Pakistan in a poor light as it implies that the declining superpower can come and go at their will in this country.

If the operation was conducted with help of the Pakistan Army [ Images ], as confirmed by Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha, the director general of Inter-Services Intelligence to Syed Saleem Shahzad of Asia Times, it shows that Army chief General Pervez Kayani has willingly or unwillingly favoured Americans in a big way.

One assumption being made is that in United States's plans in Kabul in the coming months, Pakistan may get some additional weight for helping out President Barack Obama [ Images ] while his ratings at home turf has been low.

When asked by rediff.com if the second assumption is true, what might be the quid pro quo in this deal that allowed American forces to kill Osama bin Laden on Pakistani territory, an Indian official said, "In Afghanistan, Al Qaeda is not the only factor playing a role. I don't think Pakistan can get leverage in Afghanistan."

He pointed out that the bigger news was Pakistan's loss of credibility due to this operation.

Afghanistan President Hamid Karazai had always claimed that bin Laden was no longer in Afghanistan and US forces should look for him in Pakistan.

While ruling out any favour to Pakistan in the new gameplan in Afghanistan by the US administration, he said, "It is very clear that Osama could not have been hiding in Abbottabad without Pakistan's help. He was right in front of a military cantonment. So, how can they be trusted in Afghanistan?"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2011 17:44

sum wrote:But if a massive attack ( with explosions) is happening 100 yards from a major military academy + general military area, wont the QRTs react by instinct( esp if it is happening for FORTY minutes) unless they were told to hold back explicitly?

Would assume that any such massive activity even few K.M.s ( forget 100 yards) from NDA/IMA would trigger the nearest QRTs to be rushed to check out the reason and engage the attacker

They would not have known what the Fug was going on. What can you do? You are in a peace area/peacetime posting not geared up for war - it is a training academy after all. Suddenly there are explosions and helicopters. You call boss - talk for 5 minutes. he calls his boss - talks for 5 minutes. Boss does not know. Will call back in 5 minutes. 30 minutes pass By the time security forces are mustered to go there its all over. The US has done well. The jingo celebration is in order - this is more liek Entebbe than Mogadishu or Carter Iran hostage rescue.

Perfectly credble. No QRT phew Rt business

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2011 17:48

Some side effects of this action, as per Indian intel:
More shame and retribution heading ISI's way

Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence is bound to be cornered in the days to come following the killing of dreaded terrorist Osama bin Laden.

A source in the intelligence agency says that Osama's death will no doubt put the ISI in a very uncomfortable position among the Al Qaeda, Haqqani Network and the Lashkar-e-Tayiba, who now feel betrayed by the agency

When the dust settles, more embarrasment could come the ISI's way with the trial of terror suspects David Coleman Headley and Tahhawur Rana due to commence.

Nothing in the Af-Pak region goes unnoticed by the ISI and if bin Laden managed to play hide and seek with the world all this while, it was only thanks to ISI's patronage. Although the US has claimed that Pakistan was not in the know of this operation, terror groups would not believe so.

The Pakstan military largely depends on the intelligence provided by the ISI and hence all these movements and operations are well known to the establishment.

The biggest backlash would, however, be from the Haqqani Network with which the ISI has been toying for some time now. The ISI had managed to get the outfit into the Al Qaeda network. For the ISI, this move had paid off as it managed to set up a very strong force. But today, both outfits feel betrayed.
...

Indian agencies feel that the ISI would first look to rally its troops together and assure them that the war could still go on. However, terrorist groups would settle for nothing less than revenge and the ISI would need to play along to keep them amused. This would mean trouble, as the ISI is expected to give them a free hand to stage attacks.
{ Same conclusion as BRF, more attacks on India}

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 May 2011 17:48

We will never know the details.

The US, to protect Pakistanis, maybe denying that Pakistan knew. That serves the purpose of deflecting Qaida rage against Pakistani brass and help protect innocent lives. The added advantage is the whole operation then gets an aura which adds to the invincibility and high tech mystique of US forces.

Or the months of planning also took into account the covert subversion of individuals in Pakistan so that the whole operation was ignored by those who could blow a whistle and upset it.

The latter is far fetched, I admit, but not impossible.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 May 2011 17:49

Finally after half a day, Times Now realizes that the Photo of OBL with the bullet wound in the head is photoshopped.

Arnab Goswami is on at 9 PM tonight to discuss OBL - Gawd save us all...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2011 17:50

sum wrote: Would assume that any such massive activity even few K.M.s ( forget 100 yards) from NDA/IMA would trigger the nearest QRTs to be rushed to check out the reason and engage the attacker

No such thing would happen. They have to protect NDA not all of Poona. The sentry would call boss. boss would call his boss. his boss would ask around and they would first want to send people to find out the nature of the threat. For god's sake if the force is in helos and is making heavy explosions you need anti aircrfat weapons. . The QRT would need access to that and permission to use them. What guarantee that the helos are not friendlies in a secret antiterror op? You don't even know how many men will be needed. You can't just send 4 men . If you want to send 100 men it will take at least 30-40 minutes to get them ready

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 02 May 2011 17:51

The crashed chopper:

look like chopper blades

more pics here
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotos ... 465-6.html

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2011 17:51

Gagan wrote:
Arnab Goswami is on at 9 PM tonight to discuss OBL - Gawd save us all...

He will invite scumbags like Hamid Gul, Tariq Azim, Mushahid "Mandela" Hussain and 1-2 Indians like Mani Shankar Aiyar etc which will ensure i wont watch it and will need to depend on BR to tell as to what the "sane" Indians on the panel like GP, Kanwal Sibal etc talked about..

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 May 2011 17:51

It is however possible that some Saudis themselves gave Osama away! Saudi Royal Family and its Bandars probably were able to convince some Osama-Friend, that America will not go after Iran as long as it sits in Afghanistan and hunts for Osama, and for the sake of the Sunnis it is important that America be freed from Osama's shadow!

The Saudis could have then passed on the information to the Americans about the hideout or the general whereabouts.

Having now felled Osama, Obama is now free to march on to the new war against Iran! If Osama had not been neutralized, and Obama had decided to go after Iran, he would have been accused of the same thing, he accused George W. Bush of doing - forgetting Afghanistan from where 9/11 was planned and going into Iraq!

Secondly with the Sunni planner of 9/11 still alive, it would have again seemed absurd for Obama to favor the Sunnis over the Shia! With Osama dead, that would be less of a problem!

Just more speculation!

The action can now move on to Iran!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 May 2011 17:58

The commandos would have landed in 4 groups
Two groups on the roof of the building, they will go down the building, since high value targets will likely be located on the upper floors.
Of these one group clears the way, the other group is a snatch team who will grab the target and flee. They will leave EVERYONE else behind - even their own comrades once they have their target in hand.
Third team lands within the compound to encircle and engage any people within the compound, draw fire so that the team on the roof can do their job.
4th team lands on the outside of the compound and enforces the cordon.

Helos with snipers circle overhead to take out bogies on the roof, in the compound where ever they are visible.

Attack helos are around to take out any QRTs arriving. They will blow ANY incoming vehicle. They all have NVG so any group of people coming within the cordon will be taken out.
The explosions are possibly that of at least some QRTs being taken out by the attack helos.

I get the feeling that OBL got cornered into a room, with his bodyguards, with seals outside and a firefight underway.
It is reported that OBL was armed, and was killed in the firefight.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 May 2011 18:00

Slim fuselage, Apache?

bart · Post by **bart** » 02 May 2011 18:00

shiv wrote:
sum wrote:But if a massive attack ( with explosions) is happening 100 yards from a major military academy + general military area, wont the QRTs react by instinct( esp if it is happening for FORTY minutes) unless they were told to hold back explicitly?

Would assume that any such massive activity even few K.M.s ( forget 100 yards) from NDA/IMA would trigger the nearest QRTs to be rushed to check out the reason and engage the attacker

They would not have known what the Fug was going on. What can you do? You are in a peace area/peacetime posting not geared up for war - it is a training academy after all. Suddenly there are explosions and helicopters. You call boss - talk for 5 minutes. he calls his boss - talks for 5 minutes. Boss does not know. Will call back in 5 minutes. 30 minutes pass By the time security forces are mustered to go there its all over. The US has done well. The jingo celebration is in order - this is more liek Entebbe than Mogadishu or Carter Iran hostage rescue.

Perfectly credble. No QRT phew Rt business

To add to that, only very elite ISI/Army top brass would have known that OBL was indeed in that compound. The run of the mill army staff including the QRT teams, let alone the cadets in the academy would not have any inkling that OBL was a few hundred meters away. For all they knew it would have been yet another bomb blast/sectarian event, business as normal. And the folks that would have wanted to investigate or react would have been perhaps told not to do so by higher ups who would by then have been instructed (once the operation had started) to stand down by the Americans.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 May 2011 18:02

From orbat:

Osama now sleeps with the fishes. We await the explanation of the Pakistan military (not the Pakistan Government, because it is not involved) regarding its hosting of America's most wanted in a military cantonment, even if Osama's house was likely outside the formal base area. We do not expect the Pakistan military to do anything except claim false credit for alerting the Americans, whereas the military was sheltering Obama. We do expect business as usual between the US and Pakistan. That there will be no change in the Afghan War goes without saying - US itself has said so many times in the past. But in this moment of victory, we ask the US to remember it has achieved its objectives as they were set in September 2001. Osama is dead. Every congratulation is due the CIA and US military forces. The US needs to now come home.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 02 May 2011 18:08

RajeshA wrote:It is however possible that some Saudis themselves gave Osama away! Saudi Royal Family and its Bandars probably were able to convince some Osama-Friend, that America will not go after Iran as long as it sits in Afghanistan and hunts for Osama, and for the sake of the Sunnis it is important that America be freed from Osama's shadow!

The Saudis could have then passed on the information to the Americans about the hideout or the general whereabouts.

Having now felled Osama, Obama is now free to march on to the new war against Iran! If Osama had not been neutralized, and Obama had decided to go after Iran, he would have been accused of the same thing, he accused George W. Bush of doing - forgetting Afghanistan from where 9/11 was planned and going into Iraq!

Secondly with the Sunni planner of 9/11 still alive, it would have again seemed absurd for Obama to favor the Sunnis over the Shia! With Osama dead, that would be less of a problem!

Just more speculation!

The action can now move on to Iran!

++1.

this should go into the Best Posts thread. this could very well be the most valuable post to come out of this entire thread.

Obama declaring victory and moving to pre-9/11 status quo. i had said the same thing few weeks ago. US is trying real hard to go back to pre-9/11 situation where they could blissfully fund all kind of Jihadis and not care a hoot for it b/c they are thousands of miles away. now, this is even more important b/c they need to take Iran and destabilize India in a major way. kill 2 birds with one stone (Sunni Jihad); that is the plan. and Osama's timely killing provides a very good opportunity to go back to pre-9/11 equilibrium.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 May 2011 18:09

When the TTP attacked GHQ in c. 2009, the pitched gun battle lasted about an hour and then the terrorists sneaked in and held hostages. It was only the next day they were killed, hostages released and the situation was normalized.

We have also seen attacks on the Punjab Police Training college repeatedly where pitched battles went for hours together before terrorists were neutralized.

The GHQ and the Punjab Police attacks took place in broad daylight and still no QRT was seen.

The attack at Abbotabad took place in the dead of night and even if some QRT were to be scrambled, I doubt if that would have been possible in the short duration and whether they would have had the wherewithal to fight in darkness. They didn't do it in the GHQ, waited for daybreak. They probably decided discretion was better part of valour.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 May 2011 18:12

CNN reported the helos as Apaches.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 02 May 2011 18:13

Folks , at 9 pm IST, Arnab Goswami on Times Now, will be debating whether pakistan should be declared a terrorist state . Hope, Parthsarthy is there too.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 02 May 2011 18:16

jimmyray wrote:It is fun reading Puki forums now. They are trying hard to potray it as a joint op

CNN: OBL body buried at sea

Apparently, it was in shark infested waters. Goat-lover #1 is how shark poop.

Patni · Post by **Patni** » 02 May 2011 18:18

Osama bin Laden's Compound

Google map location of compound.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 02 May 2011 18:18

Pakisatan is in many ways in the deepest of crap. Wait till Uncle makes his demands, post Osama. The military establishment is going to get such a kick in their testimonials that they will be spitting out their nuts.

But, don't hold your breath, there will be no declaration of terrorist state, etc. They need to use them for some more time. This state should change its name from Pakisatan to Nirodh. It is a condom that is thick latex and withstands multiple uses and has absolutely no feeling (of shame I mean).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2011 18:20

^^
+1

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 02 May 2011 18:20

So, will Thanda Choha now become the third most important site for Wahabis? Abbotabad stands to become a tourist destination.

Devesh Rawal · Post by **Devesh Rawal** » 02 May 2011 18:20

I am no expert but that large horizontal stabilizer looks like Blackhawk. That would be pretty standard for special ops, no?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 750pix.jpg

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 May 2011 18:23

more free weapons for pakis will follow.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 02 May 2011 18:24

From a purely technical standpoint, how is it possible for US helicopters to land so close to Paki Army HQ garrison city, dont they have radar's etc? If Unkil can do this without telling Pakis AT ALL, that is really a triumph...it will make them less reliant on Pakis in future...

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 May 2011 18:24

Is Arnab Goswami going to declare it a terrorist state?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 May 2011 18:30

rajanb wrote:Is Arnab Goswami going to declare it a terrorist state?

At least he is doing what GoI has no b@lls to do.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2011 18:31

Suppiah wrote:From a purely technical standpoint, how is it possible for US helicopters to land so close to Paki Army HQ garrison city, dont they have radar's etc? If Unkil can do this without telling Pakis AT ALL, that is really a triumph...it will make them less reliant on Pakis in future...

Suppiah you have 5 years of catching up to do on the military forum. Israel and the USA have become masters of jamming and spoofing radars - and they knew exactly what they would need to do. The radars would have gone blind over Abbottabad 10 minutes before the helos got there and would have come back on an hour later. In any case no Paki would have been looking or activity over Abbottabad - and certainly not helos at treetop height.

And there would have been F-16s and F/ 18s at 20.000 feet on "routine flights" armed with AAMs to stop any Jihadi Fizzaya activity should something have gone wrong. Not to mention AWACS aand Bredator djinns using IR to watch.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 May 2011 18:33

@SSridhar

No point doing it unless we can back it up with action mate. That, to me, is the sad part.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 02 May 2011 18:34

Suppiah wrote:From a purely technical standpoint, how is it possible for US helicopters to land so close to Paki Army HQ garrison city, dont they have radar's etc? If Unkil can do this without telling Pakis AT ALL, that is really a triumph...it will make them less reliant on Pakis in future...

Boss, don't you get it? That is what they mean by Pakisatanic co-operation: While the op was already underway and about to commence, Amritraj was deputed to give a call to Kiyanuts. He was gently informed that co-operation in the form of STFU and sit in the corner was absolutely essential, else his Kiyanuts would be turned into mince - along with anyone who tried to interfere. Pakistan consequently provided invaluable co-operation. The plugged all their orifices. Hence, the Pakistani statement post op reflects their official position as well as their orificial position.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 02 May 2011 18:36

Gagan wrote:Local eyewitness reports:
Anyone entering was screened via the cameras, and after confirmation only then they could enter the compound.

I guess OBL did not have too many pizzas delivered at home? Here's a hypothetical delivery prank that went awry:

..."Ding Dong" (the front door bell, for you nut jobs)
..."Who ij it?"
..."Pijja Delibery>"
..."Pijja? Bhee id not order pijja. Ojama, did joo order pijja?"
...(in background) "Bismillahir rahmanir rahim, NO!"
..."Bhee did not order pijja. Damn thoje pesky neighborhood kids. Who sent joo?"
..."Kakul Pijja Waley. Pleaj hurry or in one minute, my thirty minutes bhill be over and thij pijja bhill be free."
..."Free, eh? Hokay! Wait far three minutej bhile I get my wallet."

...and the rest was history.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2011 18:37

Devesh Rawal wrote:I am no expert but that large horizontal stabilizer looks like Blackhawk. That would be pretty standard for special ops, no?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 750pix.jpg

I spent about half an hour trying to find out. My guess was that it is not Blackhawk because Blackhawk has a chracteristic notch in the rear border of the tail rotor mast in which the wing moves. This is missing in that wreck.

But I don't know what helo it is. Does not appear to be Apache. Mi 17 or Cobra

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 02 May 2011 18:38

shiv wrote: Suppiah you have 5 years of catching up to do on the military forum. Israel and the USA have become masters of jamming and spoofing radars - and they knew exactly what they would need to do. The radars would have gone blind over Abbottabad 10 minutes before the helos got there and would have come back on an hour later. In any case no Paki would have been looking or activity over Abbottabad - and certainly not helos at treetop height.

And there would have been F-16s and F/ 18s at 20.000 feet on "routine flights" armed with AAMs to stop any Jihadi Fizzaya activity should something have gone wrong. Not to mention AWACS aand Bredator djinns using IR to watch.

Amazing...if anything this clearly shows how much Unkil trusts Paki animals notwithstanding all the goody goody statements to the media.

ISI would have this dilemma - protect him too heavy, you end up exposing him, just put him in a safe house and not make too much noise, then this kind of thing happens...who will now trust them?