News - Osama Bin Laden - killed In Pakistan

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 04 May 2011 01:23

Would OBL not have planned for a tunnel as an emergency exit....He was a civil engineer and had years of experience building tunnels and bunkers in Afghania. Secondly he would have wanted to stay on the ground floor to stay close to the exits. If staying upstairs an elevator to go down to the exits in an emergency....emergency power supply....there was nothing.

Not a really well designed hideout. Just a cash cow for retired PA officers to make money by renting it out.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 May 2011 01:25

Paul wrote:
they built a mockup on a 1 acre lot in a off-limits-to-most area of bagram afb itself per reports and practised from start of april if not earlier. could have passed it to curious onlookers it was just a generic model, just like one of scores in mainland US bases.
NPR in SoCal says they trained in San Diego....Camp Pendleton has lots of real estate

In west coast it would be in Coronado, CA where SEALs have their training facility. DEVGRU though is based in Virginia Beach.

Harish wrote:One question here: if the Seals knew they were going after OBL, and they were extremely well-armed and capable, why did they not capture OBL alive? THey could have esily wiped out any and all resistance, since they were overwhelmingly well-armed, well-trained and battle hardened. Sure obl carries a gun, but he could have been incapacitated and then physically overwhelmed.

Just imagine what kind of information they could have extracted from OBL were he alive! Imagine what it would do to the khan's tough guy image were obl to be paraded in chains to an American jail and later executed!

Even if OBL didnt want to spill dirty secrets US wouldn't want to take OBL alive coz that would lead to a whole new circus and millions of dollars of useless expenditure and media attention - not every body wants to be like dharmic SDREs serving mutton biriyani to Kasab. Instead it was better to kill him since his usefulness was more as a symbolic figurehead for Al Keeda hence, keeping him alive would provide some intel value but not much. Now if they capture Zawahiri or Mullah Omar, that will be a different story - they will probably pump them dry and then kill them and announce their deaths if they can get away with it.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 May 2011 01:26

shyamd wrote:Each blackhawk can carry 15 people? so 5 or 6 heli's involved in total, not the 4 as suggested.

They said there was a Chinook - that would have been enough to carry a big chunk of the force.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 04 May 2011 01:29

Is it only me or have others also noticed that the Indian media coverage of OBL's execution seems excessively deferential to Pakistan. The whole world is roasting the Pakis and asking legitimate questions about their complicity and the Indians are buying the Paki line that it was a joint op. Have exchanged emails with some worthies in the Indian media about this. They just cant seem to see reality.

My mind boggles.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 May 2011 01:30

See this is typical of all people hiding out - all elite people hiding out.

1. They hide and tend to live on the upper floors. It gives them a sense of security.
Any outsider coming in is screened by the people on the lower floors, the security staff.

But special forces know this habit. Which is why they land on the roof of buildings and do a top down approach to taking custody of a building.

2. Another example: The terrorists in 26/11. In each of the buildings, the terrorists first instinct was to go to the upper floors. They did that at the trident, at the taj with the hostages, before they were probably ordered back down. And they did this at the Chabad house.
At the Chabad house, they went to the topmost floor with the hostages, and blew the staircase leading upto it and prepared their final holdout there.

3. Another example: Airline / Bus hijackers.
These guys tend to be present either in the space in the front of the seats or the asiles of the plane. It gives them a sense of security and power if they can watch the faces of their hostages for sudden moves, change of expression.
Again security forces know this habit and will invariably shoot anyone standing on the asiles or on the front.

Instinct, which is very common across the human race.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 04 May 2011 01:30

From Time:

CIA Chief Breaks Silence: Pakistan Would Have Jeopardized bin Laden Raid, ‘Impressive’ Intel Captured

In his first interview since commanding the mission to kill Osama bin Laden, CIA chief Leon Panetta tells TIME that U.S. officials feared that Pakistan could have undermined the operation by leaking word to its targets. Long before Panetta ordered Vice Admiral William McRaven, head of the Joint Special Forces Command, to undertake the mission at 1:22 p.m. on Friday, the CIA had been gaming out how to structure the raid. Months prior, the U.S. had considered expanding the assault to include coordination with other countries, notably Pakistan. But the CIA ruled out participating with its nominal South Asian ally early on because “it was decided that any effort to work with the Pakistanis could jeopardize the mission. They might alert the targets,” Panetta says.
<snip>

Photos of the hideout
Many other stories: http://www.time.com/time/

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 04 May 2011 01:32

shaardula wrote:perhaps gagan et al can confirm. but the compound had no immediate neighbors right?

There is one house , just on the front side, main gate. Two farmers ( my foot) living there have been arrested by Abbottabad police and whisked away.

You can see the locked door of the house and people who are taking photos of the house. There are few, I can count three other houses slightly away from the main compound.One coming up construction. Else there are lot of empty spaces surrounding the house

Seems they were using fly-ash bricks. while lair had normal bricks....

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 04 May 2011 01:33

Don't know if this was posted earlier - but tonight's Frontline show on the PBS network is on the topic. It was scheduled even before Bin Laden's killing, but is particularly relevant now.

Here's a description of the show

The killing of bin Laden put the spotlight on a story that FRONTLINE has been investigating for six months—a stepped-up secret war inside Pakistan targeting unprecedented numbers of al Qaeda and Taliban militants.

Tonight, in this FRONTLINE special report, correspondents Martin Smith and Stephen Grey reveal new details about the United States’ increasingly go-it-alone kill campaign in Pakistan. They also find more evidence of the covert support the militants receive from the Pakistani military and its powerful intelligence service, the ISI.

Also in this hour: Afghan journalist Najibullah Qureishi takes a rare journey to meet the men who say they fight in the name of bin Laden. Are these local bands of militants the future of al Qaeda?

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 04 May 2011 01:33

ramana wrote:Has the courier guy been identified? I know he and his brother are among those killed. Poetic/ironic justice!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/world ... nd.html?hp

Bin Laden Hosts at Compound Were Two Pakistanis
By CARLOTTA GALL
Published: May 3, 2011

ABBOTTABAD, Pakistan — Osama bin Laden relied in his last days on two Pakistanis, in their 30s, one of whom, according to American officials, was his most trusted courier. Bin Laden no longer had a circle of Arab bodyguards, or mujahedeen who had fought with him against the Soviet Union, but two married men and their young families.

They were known here as Arshad Khan and Tareq Khan, although one police official said Arshad was not his real name and he carried a fake identity card. Although they have been reported to be brothers by American officials, they were actually cousins, Arshad was in his late 30s and Tareq in his early 30s, according to a neighbor who gave his name only as Qassim, who lives directly opposite and whose father worked as their watchman for several years.

The two cousins bought the land and built the house seven years ago, Mr.. Abbassi said, adding he knew the year because his family built their own house at the same time. A security official said the house was built in 2004, just beyond the boundaries of the military section of the town where the Kakul Military Academy and other buildings are.

When children playing in the fields let a ball fly into the compound by mistake, the owners never let them retrieve it but gave them 50 rupees to buy a new one, said one of the neighbors, a woman with a small boy on her hip. Reluctant to be quoted in the media, she gave her name as only Bibi, which translates as Miss or Mrs. Even when the children began to throw balls in on purpose to gain more money, the owners still kept paying, she said laughing.

The man who knew them best was Shemrez Khan, a farmer and laborer who lived in a small brick house directly opposite the main gate to the compound. He was detained by the Pakistan military immediately after the raid at 2 am in the morning, his son Qassim said.

He worked for several years for the Khans as a watchman as they were building the house, his son said. But once the house was built he stopped working for them and returned to tending the fields around the property. He never went inside after that, his son said.

None of the neighbors seemed to know whether the Khans died in the raid because the military had sealed the house soon after the raid and it remained locked Tuesday, with tape on the gates and anti-terrorism police on guard.

Yet it is almost certain they were in the house that night and were killed alongside bin Laden since several of the neighbors saw them driving in and out during the day. “I was here during the day and I saw them,” said Qassim. “They were at home.”

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 May 2011 01:34

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13263426
Check the eyes of the speaker in this video

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13272502
Bin Laden's death provoked strong reaction from India

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 May 2011 01:34

nice post gaganullah.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 May 2011 01:37

Rahul M wrote:
RamaY wrote: RahulMullah

ISI and TSPA's involvement in OBL's execution (he was unarmed it seems) has its own implications... Everything is fair in love and war
those implications are far less important than everyone and their mommy knowing that ISI hid laden.
the islamist groups will fight among each other(and against army) with or without those 'implications'.

Makes lot of sense and I hope unkil reacts to Paki perfidy. My only worry is that the entire paki empire is unkil (and aunty's) creation and unkil may find it more suitable to use this condom to further their interests (often at contradiction with Indian interests) than dismantling their munna...

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 May 2011 01:38

I got to say that BRF has been excellent in covering this. I haven't watched any TV news - American or Indian, but I am reasonably well informed on this than many others around me.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 May 2011 01:39

ramana wrote:
Shaymd,
Maybe the ISI and TSPA top guys sold someone else out (Pasha lightning visit, non-action by TSPA in Kakul, FizzleYa non-presence* etc) but US went out for OBL? Now the TSPA can't reveal their co-operation as it reveals more of their perfidy. Besides who will believe them now as they have lied about simple things!

Like in the Sherlock Holmes story" Case of Silver Blaze" the curious thing is the dog that didnt bark or in this the TSP Military case didnt show up!

And what about the Pak military helicopter that crashed?

TSP Military case didnt show up!
It looks there is an understanding between the US military and the Pakistan military. This thing does not go away after 50 years of joint work and fellowship. They made sure that they dont clash.

What has confused the PA is the global press coverage and the intense pressure on the Pakistan image and its image. This is being watched. US may help Pakistan to come out of this.

Harish · Post by **Harish** » 04 May 2011 01:39

Johann wrote:Harish,

OBL wouldn't implicate the US in court - like Saddam he would try to give long statements to secure his legacy and rally the troops as a Muslim warrior, answering the call of god to defend the ummah and smite the kaffirs.

White House CT advisor Brennan claimed they were ready to capture him. While that may be true at the political level, I am not sure that the SEALs would have been ready to take the extra effort unless they were explicitly ordered to do whatever it took to bring him in alive.

Have you seen how the Obama administration has struggled to balance the legal and security challenges of trying Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? Theyve kept flip flopping between military and civilian trials, and between trying him in New York or Gitmo or elsewhere. With OBL it would be even worse. It would undo every notion of decisive strength that the US has displayed here.

Laden was such a high value target that these "reasons" really sound like lame excuses to me. You mean, obl, the world's most wanted terrorist, mastermind of dozens of plots and attacks, leader of the global jihad, he would not be caught alive if the opportunity presented itself, because, like, the US could not decide which court to try him under? No offence, but this is preposterous!

Is this the same nation that sent individuals, some on mere suspicion, to gitmo where they were tortured to extract every bit of information humanly possible? America knows the value of information. This is not a country that will throw away even a bit of data, especially if it has national security implications.

So why did US decide to eliminate obl, and not capture him alive, when it was certainly possible? It was an once-in-a-lifetime opportunity - you dont get to capture the AQ bigwigs every other day. So why did the US throw away that opportunity? Something stinks here.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 May 2011 01:40

The US, expectedly and justifiably, is hiding details of the operation.

They would like to conceal the actual number of helos uses, the path they used, etc.
They were probably using a highly modified black hawk - a Silent Hawk if you will specially designed for special ops. And that bird looks like its gotten some armour protection on its tail rotor in the middle. The quietening will be because of the rotor speed, material and the design of the rotor.

They also didn't want to talk on specifics such as what kind of feed was being transmitted out of the building for the team which was viewing it.

I am sure they have helmet mounted cameras on the seals. NVG's also record and transmit if needed. Operational commanders could see it LIVE. But the POTUS and that team there would have been spared the live feed.

The POTUS would have gotten a private and very restricted screening later.
Imagine - 80 guys, 80 cameras with audio 40-50 minutes of action.

They don't want this to come up because then their media walas will be crying out for a dekko at a few snippets, all sorts of complications are possible. Those tapes are as good as classified for the next 99 years.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 May 2011 01:41

stealth helo.. and now chippanda might approach pakis to obtain the tail boom material

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 04 May 2011 01:42

The Germans say these things best.

Schadenfreude..... Im loving this.

Over to the India media...They will say that CIA Director is wrong and that this is a joint US/PAKI op. Thankfully no one is listenting to them. Guys read the FT and the rest of the world press or watch Sky TV or BBC if you can. They are being very objective and telling the truth - that Pak is in grave trouble having hosted OBL. The Sky TV anchor yesterday said to of the Paki High Commisioner - 'He is living in a fantasy world'.

Its only in India that there are these conspiracy theories. The rest of the world sees this for what it is. Pakistan = Terrorism.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 04 May 2011 01:44

Gagan wrote:See this is typical of all people hiding out - all elite people hiding out.

1. They hide and tend to live on the upper floors. It gives them a sense of security.
Any outsider coming in is screened by the people on the lower floors, the security staff.

But special forces know this habit. Which is why they land on the roof of buildings and do a top down approach to taking custody of a building.

2. Another example: The terrorists in 26/11. In each of the buildings, the terrorists first instinct was to go to the upper floors. They did that at the trident, at the taj with the hostages, before they were probably ordered back down. And they did this at the Chabad house.
At the Chabad house, they went to the topmost floor with the hostages, and blew the staircase leading upto it and prepared their final holdout there.

3. Another example: Airline / Bus hijackers.
These guys tend to be present either in the space in the front of the seats or the asiles of the plane. It gives them a sense of security and power if they can watch the faces of their hostages for sudden moves, change of expression.
Again security forces know this habit and will invariably shoot anyone standing on the asiles or on the front.

Instinct, which is very common across the human race.

Jumping in from the roofs is also a common motif in house to house urban combat, apparently because it gives the attacker the momentum 'attacking down', and also makes them less vulnerable to enemy fire as opposed to 'going up'.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 May 2011 01:44

Everyone kills people like OBL (or commit suicide). Veerappan, Prabhakaran...I am sure the list is long. Very few people are caught and paraded in courts (milosevic?). No surprises there.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 May 2011 01:45

RamaY wrote:

Makes lot of sense and I hope unkil reacts to Paki perfidy. My only worry is that the entire paki empire is unkil (and aunty's) creation and unkil may find it more suitable to use this condom to further their interests (often at contradiction with Indian interests) than dismantling their munna...

Paki perfidy is actually an asset for Uncle which allows them to do lot of things in the region. This has to be understood very clearly here.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 May 2011 01:46

I think India is scared of local disturbances if they (media/standing instructions from GoI) say anything about pakis. There are more MPTPs (la MUTU), in desh than anywhere on the planet. Tolerance of the third kind.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 04 May 2011 01:46

Regarding the issue on the helicopters used for the mission... my educated guess will be the following,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_MH-53

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... litary.jpg

MH-53J Pave Low version for Special Operations missions.

The MH-53J Pave Low III heavy-lift helicopter was the largest, most powerful and technologically advanced transport helicopter in the US Air Force inventory. The terrain-following and terrain-avoidance radar, forward looking infrared sensor, inertial navigation system with Global Positioning System, along with a projected map display enable the crew to follow terrain contours and avoid obstacles, making low-level penetration possible.
Under the Pave Low III program, the Air Force modified nine MH-53Hs and 32 HH-53s for night and adverse weather operations. Modifications included forward-looking infrared, inertial navigation system, global positioning system, Doppler navigation systems, APQ-158 terrain-following and terrain-avoidance radar, an on-board mission computer, enhanced navigation system, and integrated avionics to enable precise navigation to and from target areas. The Air Force designated these modified versions as MH-53Js.
The MH-53J's main mission was to drop off, supply, and pick up special forces behind enemy lines. It also can engage in combat search and rescue missions. Low-level penetration is made possible by a state-of-the-art terrain following radar, as well as infrared sensors that allow the helicopter to operate in bad weather. It was equipped with armor plating. It could transport 38 troops at a time and sling up to 20,000 pounds (9,000 kg) of cargo with its external hook. It was capable of top speeds of 165 mph (266 km/h) and altitudes up to 16,000 feet (4,900 m).
The MH-53M Pave Low IV was modified from the MH-53J configuration with the addition of Interactive Defensive Avionics System/Multi-Mission Advanced Tactical Terminal or IDAS/MATT. The system enhanced the defensive capabilities of the Pave Low. It provided instant access to the total battlefield situation, through near real-time Electronic Order of Battle updates. It also provided a new level of detection avoidance with near real-time threat broadcasts over-the-horizon, so crews can avoid and defeat threats, and replan enroute if needed.
The MH-53 Pave Low's last mission was on 27 September 2008, when the remaining six helicopters flew their last combat missions in support of special operations forces in Southwest Asia. These MH-53Ms were retired shortly thereafter.[1]

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 04 May 2011 01:48

shaardula wrote:WikiLeaks: Osama bin Laden 'protected' by Pakistani security
Pakistani security forces allegedly helped Osama bin Laden evade American troops for almost 10 years, according to secret US government files.

Ass-nage is a responsible person. He releases only on order and not irresponsibly

.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 04 May 2011 01:50

Harish wrote:
Johann wrote:Harish,

OBL wouldn't implicate the US in court - like Saddam he would try to give long statements to secure his legacy and rally the troops as a Muslim warrior, answering the call of god to defend the ummah and smite the kaffirs.

White House CT advisor Brennan claimed they were ready to capture him. While that may be true at the political level, I am not sure that the SEALs would have been ready to take the extra effort unless they were explicitly ordered to do whatever it took to bring him in alive.

Have you seen how the Obama administration has struggled to balance the legal and security challenges of trying Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? Theyve kept flip flopping between military and civilian trials, and between trying him in New York or Gitmo or elsewhere. With OBL it would be even worse. It would undo every notion of decisive strength that the US has displayed here.
Laden was such a high value target that these "reasons" really sound like lame excuses to me. You mean, obl, the world's most wanted terrorist, mastermind of dozens of plots and attacks, leader of the global jihad, he would not be caught alive if the opportunity presented itself, because, like, the US could not decide which court to try him under? No offence, but this is preposterous!

Is this the same nation that sent individuals, some on mere suspicion, to gitmo where they were tortured to extract every bit of information humanly possible? America knows the value of information. This is not a country that will throw away even a bit of data, especially if it has national security implications.

So why did US decide to eliminate obl, and not capture him alive, when it was certainly possible? It was an once-in-a-lifetime opportunity - you dont get to capture the AQ bigwigs every other day. So why did the US throw away that opportunity? Something stinks here.

The whole Cheney-Rumsfeld program of treating as 'enemy combatants' as intelligence sources instead of PoWs or criminals was based on faulty legal logic, and a false idea of what and what could not be kept secret, and an even falser idea of what the American and international public would stomach in the name of counter-terrorism.

That is why the program collapsed, and the Obama administration has not pulled itself from out of the wreckage yet. That is a fact.

These kinds of legal hassles are part of why Bill Clinton failed to kill or capture Bin Laden from August 1998 until January 2001 despite major efforts.

If you think this is irrational, then yes you are correct. The law in America, and its power, and its relation to the media and public opinion are not rational things. Thats what elected prosecutors, judges, and jury trials for everything get you.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 May 2011 01:57

Specially people like Prabakaran and OBL, Al Zawahiri, Veerappan and several others, are NEVER taken alive.

These guys know too much!

What happens if they are arrested, produced in court and they start singing hain ji?
Or once arrested, they start reminiscing the good ol' days, when they and someone-who-is-in-power-and-is-a-very-senior-and-respected-person used to be bosom buddies, and they ate goat meat together and fought battles together?

Unnecessarily maligns careers of people, some scandals come out, some skeletons tumble out.

These guys know too much, they've lived by the bullet and they'll die by it ASAP.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 04 May 2011 01:58

maybe the guy is afterall not dead and singing like a sparrow in custody? May be that's why the photos are not coming fast, it takes time to make a fool proof one that cannot be doble guessed.
Who knows?

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 04 May 2011 02:01

Time for some russki reaction:

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/02- ... n_laden-0/

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 04 May 2011 02:02

thanks gagan and chaanakya

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 04 May 2011 02:02

Gagan wrote:Specially people like Prabakaran and OBL, Al Zawahiri, Veerappan and several others, are NEVER taken alive.

These guys know too much!

What happens if they are arrested, produced in court and they start singing hain ji?
Or once arrested, they start reminiscing the good ol' days, when they and someone-who-is-in-power-and-is-a-very-senior-and-respected-person used to be bosom buddies, and they ate goat meat together and fought battles together?

Unnecessarily maligns careers of people, some scandals come out, some skeletons tumble out.

These guys know too much, they've lived by the bullet and they'll die by it ASAP.

It is not only that. What is use of OBL being captured alive. He was their asset until late 80s and was in ambiguos double role until early 90s. US tracks its assets pretty well and they may have all the intel. It is just a great psy-ops value to remove him and they got that.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 04 May 2011 02:05

fanne wrote:maybe the guy is afterall not dead and singing like a sparrow in custody? May be that's why the photos are not coming fast, it takes time to make a fool proof one that cannot be doble guessed.
Who knows?

All involved in the operation would know for sure. Those who captured him alive, those who bundled him into the helicopter etc. I'm not sure the President of the United States would go on live TV and announce that OBL is dead knowing fully well that there are 80+ people out there who know the truth, the risk is too big, particularly with an election round the corner.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 04 May 2011 02:07

Gagan wrote:Specially people like Prabakaran and OBL, Al Zawahiri, Veerappan and several others, are NEVER taken alive.

These guys know too much!

What happens if they are arrested, produced in court and they start singing hain ji?
Or once arrested, they start reminiscing the good ol' days, when they and someone-who-is-in-power-and-is-a-very-senior-and-respected-person used to be bosom buddies, and they ate goat meat together and fought battles together?

Unnecessarily maligns careers of people, some scandals come out, some skeletons tumble out.

These guys know too much, they've lived by the bullet and they'll die by it ASAP.

Noriega was captured, and he had a far more intimate relationship with the CIA, as opposed to Bin Laden who never liked the Americans and always dealt with the Saudi GID and Pakistani ISI.

Saddam was captured, and he shook hands with Rumsfeld back in the 1980s.

Carlos the Jackal was captured with American help, and tried in France. This is despite the deals that the French did with him back in the early 1970s.

There's no hard and fast rule. Its just how things go down at the time. The notion that this is about secrets....its nonsense.

These kinds of figures are tried if political decision makers believe that a capture will be clean, and a trial will not turn in to a circus, or deliver an acquittal, or turn imprisonment in to a political liability.

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 04 May 2011 02:09

For the conspiracy theorists who say that it was a joint operation , an aspect to think about is ...
Why did the US have to destroy its downed helicopter if it was a joint OP.

Also , the pakistanis would be happy that the US did not take away the Osama family members or some more intelligence worms would have crawled out of the can.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 04 May 2011 02:10

Well Sai, the problem you refer to will only become worse as demographic trends unfold. So if they are scared now wonder what they will do 20 years from now when the numbers will be much worse. You need to be pragmatic about these things and set the agenda yourself.

NDTV's Vikarm Chandra says' Nukes will be flying over to India if Indian aircraft are over Pakistan'. So in one short statement he negates our entire conventional forces. (Not that we have an edge anymore thanks to AKA

) Well done. These kinds of statements show a lack of strategic understanding, a very shallow understanding of the of the domain and no application of mind.

Infact it reminded me of a typical indian establishment statement from one of the most senior people in the India nmilitary establishment after 26/11. During chai pani in his office this highly intelligent and senior officer uses the word 'non state actors'. I thought to myself 'just subsitite OG with Paki Khaki and this statement could have come from Abbotabad!' If you are a soverign state then you cant have non state actors and if you do then you cannot claim soverignty!

We need clear headed pragmatic thinkers.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 May 2011 02:13

Pranay,
Those birds were retired in 2008 or so in Iraq.

They were too heavy, too expensive to fly and to maintain.

But they were the most expensive and the most hi-tech mass produced military helicopters to have been built.

I think the US did this with Chinooks, Black Hawks, Apaches. All of these would be special forces editions of the birds - silenced, RAM painted, specially armour plated.
In addition the US would have deployed several UAVs a couple of HALEs and a few MALEs. There might have been a JSTARs type of a bird around, an AWACS over afghanistan with a fighter escort, and flighters in the air armed with BVR AAMs, Another set of fighters with Paveways etc.

The Radar jamming was to ensure that the Pakistanis could not see the huge constellation that had entered their airspace.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
All this is pure speculation, and I am pulling this out of my musharraf: Here goes.
It is interesting that Abbottabad is close to the LOC. It is possible that India might have assisted in the form of providing airspace for AWACS, JSTARS, possible recovery for fighters etc etc, all of it indirect support.
It would be interesting to know the status of Srinagar, Awantipur, Jammu, Pathankot Airbases at that time.
Weather there was a Phalcon in the air at that time, or if some AWACS had landed at some airbase in India.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

But that having been said, no helicopter can hope to cross the LOC, because that place is infested with MANPADS, AAA guns SAM coverage. The US heliborne forces would have found the ingress and egress routes hiding between the valleys all the way to Afghanistan a far simpler and safer option. And Pakistan hardly has adequate Radar coverage, and none at all if an aircraft decides to fly low and hide in the valleys. The shadow zone of the hills also protects aircraft from fixed SAM locations.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 May 2011 02:15

Saddam, Milosevic, Gaddafi are a different species from Bin Laden, Al Zawahiri, Prabhakaran, Veerappan etc no?

The former get a public trial and an execution.
The latter get a direct execution.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 May 2011 02:17

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
NDTV's Vikarm Chandra says' Nukes will be flying over to India if Indian aircraft are over Pakistan'. So in one short statement he negates our entire conventional forces. (Not that we have an edge anymore thanks to AKA ) Well done. These kinds of statements show a lack of strategic understanding, a very shallow understanding of the of the domain and no application of mind.

This is actually image building and setting the line for the Indian public. American also repeat similar thing when India is not in the picture. This false image of a bersek PA willing to risk it all if there is an incursion is a long term goal. They keep repeating this many times.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 04 May 2011 02:17

All this Bakis will use new-clear detergent is a carefully created and nurtured myth often ignorantly( or willingly) propagated by the dhimmi media. Every stray dog will threaten to bite you, you just need to show it an appropriately sized stick to get your message across.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 04 May 2011 02:21

Acharya wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
NDTV's Vikarm Chandra says' Nukes will be flying over to India if Indian aircraft are over Pakistan'. So in one short statement he negates our entire conventional forces. (Not that we have an edge anymore thanks to AKA ) Well done. These kinds of statements show a lack of strategic understanding, a very shallow understanding of the of the domain and no application of mind.
This is actually image building and setting the line for the Indian public. American also repeat similar thing when India is not in the picture. This false image of a bersek PA willing to risk it all if there is an incursion is a long term goal. They keep repeating this many times.

People like Chandra are propagating a type of thinking that in military terminology is, I believe, called taking 'counsel of your fears'. You'll never get far with that.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 04 May 2011 02:22

Gagan wrote:Saddam, Milosevic, Gaddafi are a different species from Bin Laden, Al Zawahiri, Prabhakaran, Veerappan etc no?

The former get a public trial and an execution.
The latter get a direct execution.

Gagan,

The Blind Sheikh, the guy who played Osama's role before Osama did was captured and tried. Of course there are people who claim he was deliberately let in to the US by the CIA. It didnt affect the trial.

Ramzi Yousef. WTC93 mastermind was renditioned from Islamabad and tried.

The Israelis arrested and tried, convicted and imprisoned Hamas's Sheikh Yassin, despite having been soft on him in the years before he began to arm himself.

Its a long list both ways.