Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 2011

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KLNMurthy
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby KLNMurthy » 08 May 2011 16:35

shiv wrote:...

But a state like Pakistan cannot be anything but dysfunctional. It cannot survive as a nation. It does not have what it takes. Its survival is being ensured merely by feeding an extremely belligerent army. I disagree with your contention that the army has the power to hold Hinduism back or that the entire Paki nation is united by islam in such enviable anti-Hindu unity of a degree of robustness that Hinduism can never hope to achieve. That gives both Islam and the Paki army more credit than they deserve. Take that army down and Pakistan will spin towards normality - perhaps in 2-3 fragments.


I have to be brief. Just to make things very clear, it is not exactly my contention that
shiv wrote: the army has the power to hold Hinduism back


My contention is that the army has the primary motivation to hold a free political space for Hinduism back. Whether it has the power to do so is a complex question that depends on a number of things, including the political forces in India itself, and can change over time.

Again, it is not exactly my contention that
shiv wrote: the entire Paki nation is united by islam in such enviable anti-Hindu unity of a degree of robustness that Hinduism can never hope to achieve


I purposely left the word "Islam" out of my assertions. I think Islam is what Muslims make of it, and varies in time and space. I think there is little doubt that many Muslims, specifically Pakis, are raised with the empire-smashing marauder meme that is a part of Islamic lore. There is more to Islam than that. But yes, I do think TSP-TSPA-TSP "people" are a coherent whole and not separate things.

I don't know what level of unity Hinduism can achieve or what form it would take, or how it would match up with TSP's unity of purpose (not Islam's necessarily) It is still in the regenerative stage. I think TSP's raison d'etre, and its goal, and the focus of its efforts, is ultimately to prevent, or put the brakes on, that process of regeneration.

I don't disagree that TSP's army should be taken down, of course. But I firmly disagree with the notion (at the core of India's policy I think) that the civilians in TSP should be encouraged, and "liberated" from the army yoke, and all else will follow. The marauder meme must be unequivocally extirpated from the Paki collective psyche, and the task at hand would be whatever it takes to accomplish this in a verifiable way. Every effort should be made to get this done short of commitng genocide.

These are significant and basic differences. I am frankly surprised to see them.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 08 May 2011 16:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby shiv » 08 May 2011 17:01

KLNMurthy wrote:I don't disagree that TSP's army should be taken down, of course. But I firmly disagree with the notion (at the core of India's policy I think) that the civilians in TSP should be encouraged, and "liberated" from the army yoke, and all else will follow. The marauder meme must be unequivocally extirpated from the Paki collective psyche, and the task at hand would be whatever it takes to accomplish this in a verifiable way. Every effort should be made to get this done short of commitng genocide.

These are significant and basic differences. I am frankly surprised to see them.

I am sorry you did not mention Islam specifically and I do not understand your reason for tippy-toeing around Islam. That is a mistake. Islam is fundamental to the meme you refer to.

The marauder meme must be unequivocally extirpated from the Paki collective psyche, and the task at hand would be whatever it takes to accomplish this in a verifiable way. Every effort should be made to get this done short of committing genocide.


If I attribute a meaning to the expression "marauder meme" it strikes me that marauders are armed. You disarm a marauder - he becomes a toothless ascetic whose thoughts (memes) can be passed off as "opinion". Violent jihad becomes jihad of the mind.

The Pakistan army is a unique marauder who is focused on India. If you disarm the army we are left with marauders (Jihadis/Taliban) with memes that will attack the West and not just India . Since I have said this so many times before I left it unsaid. Removing the Pakistan army will not solve all problems. It will modify a specific anti-India problem into a global anti everyone problem so that more nations can deal with the meme.

Changing memes minus genocide is a noble if difficult ideal to obtain. Why should it be India's burden to do that? Let the world face part of the problem we have faced. The Pakistani army was paid to keep the meme focused on India. But it is not a specific anti-India meme. I hope you have not forgotten to read the reports - some of which have been posted today - (in the last 2 hours) that show how spokespeople from the USA hopes to keep the meme focused on india by hoping to make India give the Pakistan army concessions on Cashmere so that he army is not consumed by the jihadis who have an anti-US meme. That is trouble that the US wants to avoid, Keeping the meme anti-India is good for the US.

The first step is to take down the Pakistan army. Waiting to take down the meme is in my view inaction. The meme in its original form is Islam. It has survived 1300 years and we wil not take it down. The Pakistani Army version of the meme, supported by the US and China is specifically anti-Hindu. Remove the army and let the meme survive in its pure form. Why should Hindus take it upon themselves to fight it? Let it be a free for all.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby niran » 08 May 2011 17:32

symontk wrote:

Although it may be true that Osama met US agents before 9/11, its not true that he may have died earlier than 9/11. If that was the case, Mushraff & Taliban would have mentioned during the course of WOT of 2001 itself and not from 2005


Marfan Syndrome is a hodge podge of various body abnormality and one which is a must is
Eye Sight abnormality

did you see or heard or read Osama with corrective eye glasses ever? so that is pakistaniyat from Pakistan.
we all are traveling towards Death, no? so why kill any one.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby svinayak » 08 May 2011 17:54

arun wrote:
In the end the same old same same that the US has been following with regards to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan over the past six decades which is aiding that country except this time around the US is not going to foot any part of the bill. India it seems is now expected to foot the bill entirely by handing over Jammu and Kashmir :rotfl: :

India would no doubt welcome a reduction in military aid to Pakistan, and the U.S. could use this as leverage to pressure India to allow the Kashmiris to vote on their future, which would very likely be a vote for independence. These two actions might do far more to enhance Pakistan’s stability, and to insure its friendship, than the billions of dollars that America now pays like a ransom.

Without the knowledge of the history of the region these guys want to talk about the future of this region
Kashmir vote is a mirage and Indians have thier heritage in all these areas.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby A_Gupta » 08 May 2011 18:13

Review of Anatole Lieven's book on Pakistan by Peter Oborne
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... eview.html

It would be good to read and deconstruct it.

On the contrary, Pakistan is remarkably stable and it is completely daft to compare it to failed states such as Somalia, Congo or Yemen. The key question, Lieven asks, is not why Islamist political movements are so strong in 21st-century Pakistan. It is why they are so weak. His argument is for the most part persuasive. Most Western commentators look for the wrong things. It is certainly true that the institutions imposed by the British before independence – above all parliamentary democracy and the rule of law – are failing.

But that does mean that Pakistan itself is failing? Democracy and the rule of law were imposed by the West and have never taken hold. The big, powerful forces in Pakistan remain the same as ever – family and tribe. It is a profoundly traditional society and Lieven argues that even destabilising forces such as the Taliban are best understood as new manifestations of something very ancient: the implacable hostility to the outside world demonstrated by Pathan tribes since time immemorial.
...
...
This client-based structure of Pakistani politics – comparable in certain important respects to Lewis Namier’s famous analysis of 18th-century British politics – is certainly a fundamental obstacle to progress. But this same conservatism also blocks all other movements and ideologies, whether socialism, military dictatorship or radical Islam. Life just carries on.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Hari Seldon » 08 May 2011 18:20

Well, with a Democratic administration back in the saddle in DC, ansd with OSama out of the way, is it any surprise that things re J&K are veering back to where they were prior to Osama's emergence between the US_Pak and India.

Expect to see Robin Rafale clones crawl out of the woodwork. not to mention the supporting cast(e) of ass-orted pimtellectuals, anal-cysts and sthink-tankers. Yawn, been there and survived it once before under as unstable a regime as the UF gubmint in the mid to late 90s and then again after Pokhran II.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby anupmisra » 08 May 2011 18:30

shiv wrote:Gandhians are parodies of certain aspects of Gandhi


Well put.

I would even go to the length of accusing most latter day Gandhians in hijacking the "essence of Gandhi" to suit their latest "motive of the day". Recent examples being "24 hour fasting till death do us apart" to gain political mileage. In regards to pa'astan, peace at all cost with the pakis is the latest ploy by left-over octogenerians, blinkered common culturalists, and leftists. Gandhi died by the bullet. There are hardly any Gandhians who would ever sacrifice their lives or personal well being or yearning for hgh calorific food for the common good of India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Altair » 08 May 2011 18:50

Would TSPA conduct Nuke tests to erase the temporary memory of Abdul Pakis? Its completely logical for Pakistan to conduct a Nuclear test now more than ever.
1. Tell abdul who is the boss. Its the paki fauj. Now get back to your donkey! you abdul!!
2. America would be hard pressed to do anything as it needs to accommodate TSPA's concerns about the future of the country. They would call sanctions blah blah but after six months they would open the tap again. Its the same story all over again.
3. Tell bhartis not to mess and we would nuke India if they even whisper covert action!! In fact my dear BRFites and Lurkers, Pakis would declare that the nukes were to warn India against any misadventures. Our Sadhuman Singh would still cry peace and wave white flag onlee..
4. P5 will ask India to reduce tensions with Pakistan as it is a completely fckedup and retarded nation and spare the world of its crap if India is to even dream of a permanent seat in SC.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby partha » 08 May 2011 19:26

Realization after 60 years and billions and billions of aid.
The Double Game
The unintended consequences of American funding in Pakistan.
by Lawrence Wright May 16, 2011

It’s the end of the Second World War, and the United States is deciding what to do about two immense, poor, densely populated countries in Asia. America chooses one of the countries, becoming its benefactor. Over the decades, it pours billions of dollars into that country’s economy, training and equipping its military and its intelligence services. The stated goal is to create a reliable ally with strong institutions and a modern, vigorous democracy. The other country, meanwhile, is spurned because it forges alliances with America’s enemies.

The country not chosen was India, which “tilted” toward the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Pakistan became America’s protégé, firmly supporting its fight to contain Communism. The benefits that Pakistan accrued from this relationship were quickly apparent: in the nineteen-sixties, its economy was an exemplar. India, by contrast, was a byword for basket case. Fifty years then went by. What was the result of this social experiment?

India has become the state that we tried to create in Pakistan. It is a rising economic star, militarily powerful and democratic, and it shares American interests. Pakistan, however, is one of the most anti-American countries in the world, and a covert sponsor of terrorism. Politically and economically, it verges on being a failed state. And, despite Pakistani avowals to the contrary, America’s worst enemy, Osama bin Laden, had been hiding there for years—in strikingly comfortable circumstances—before U.S. commandos finally tracked him down and killed him, on May 2nd.

American aid is hardly the only factor that led these two countries to such disparate outcomes. But, at this pivotal moment, it would be a mistake not to examine the degree to which U.S. dollars have undermined our strategic relationship with Pakistan—and created monstrous contradictions within Pakistan itself.

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011 ... z1LlsVtnkp

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby kittoo » 08 May 2011 19:53

abhishek_sharma wrote:From the link posted above ^

Eliminating, or sharply reducing, military aid to Pakistan would have consequences, but they may not be the ones we fear. Diminishing the power of the military class would open up more room for civilian rule. Many Pakistanis are in favor of less U.S. aid; their slogan is “trade not aid.” In particular, Pakistani businessmen have long sought U.S. tax breaks for their textiles, which American manufacturers have resisted. Such a move would empower the civilian middle class. India would no doubt welcome a reduction in military aid to Pakistan, and the U.S. could use this as leverage to pressure India to allow the Kashmiris to vote on their future, which would very likely be a vote for independence. These two actions might do far more to enhance Pakistan’s stability, and to insure its friendship, than the billions of dollars that America now pays like a ransom.


Do these guys even know the recent history?

No amount of pressure if going to make India yield Kashmir. We have been through much worse in much weaker state and even then nobody could take Kashmir. Nowadays, nations don't even talk about Kashmir lest it anger India and these guys think they can pressure us for something over it? LOL

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby arun » 08 May 2011 20:08

The US President Barak Obama expects the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to investigate its own Government and Intelligence Agencies to determine if the Islamic Republic was sheltering Osama Bin Laden.

Quite a change in position from not informing the Pakistani’s about the mission to take down Osama Bin Laden owing to a lack of trust that the Pakistani’s would not tip Osama Bin Laden about the mission to take him down:

STEVE KROFT: "Do you believe people in the Pakistani government, Pakistani intelligence agencies knew that bin Laden was living there?"

PRESIDENT OBAMA: "We think that there had to be some sort of support network for bin Laden inside of Pakistan. But we don't know who or what that support network was.

We don't know whether there might have been some people inside of government, people outside of government, and that's something that we have to investigate and, more importantly, the Pakistani government has to investigate.

And we've already communicated to them, and they have indicated they have a profound interest in finding out what kinds of support networks bin Laden might have had. But these are questions that we're not going to be able to answer three or four days after the event.

It's going to take some time for us to be able to exploit the intelligence that we were able to gather on site."

Obama: Bin Laden had support in Pakistan, but we don't know who

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Muppalla » 08 May 2011 20:17

Hari Seldon wrote:Well, with a Democratic administration back in the saddle in DC, ansd with OSama out of the way, is it any surprise that things re J&K are veering back to where they were prior to Osama's emergence between the US_Pak and India.

Expect to see Robin Rafale clones crawl out of the woodwork. not to mention the supporting cast(e) of ass-orted pimtellectuals, anal-cysts and sthink-tankers. Yawn, been there and survived it once before under as unstable a regime as the UF gubmint in the mid to late 90s and then again after Pokhran II.


The entire game was to move the Islamism terror machinery to Af-Pk-JK area from Israel and west. It started during Rubin regime of some piece-meal deal with palestine. US has this extreme (over?) confidence of ability to control the gini. However, 911 and other western stuff happened and some pause got into its grand plan. It still has this confidence of rolling back to its original plan. The whole terror plan( name it as Alqeeda or LeT of something else) was meant to be India specific. All other theories are all spin and BS per my IMVHO.

During the forced pause (it is forced because of 911 and also some good manuvering by India), virulent anti-Indianism was replaced by accomadation with glimpses of India-may-be-doing-US-bidding. There were thoughts that India can next Pakistan. Hence the nuke deal happened. There were several expectations regarding MMRCA deal. Had India gone with US planes, India's air superiority would have been in US's remote control. As the decision being a huge setback, now those glimpses are gone. So let's get back to rollback game will be definitely on and hence I will bet all the Osama's killing will be more used to put pressure on India and nothing else.

Anti-Indian JK posturing will be high on the agenda with Kerry, Madeline, Clinton types being in the forefront. Regarding India, inspite of too many changes, it is still sticking to basic fundamentals. Seems promising so far. It will be interesting to watch the game.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby jrjrao » 08 May 2011 20:25

This US Army major should be made the next defense secretary, instead of idiots like Rumsfeld who even today are wanting to eagerly carry water for Pakistani terrorist sponsors and Pakistani terror organizers and Pakistani terrorist hiders.

U.S. aid to Pakistan was a wasted effort
We have given over $18 billion in aid to Pakistan, and what do we get in return? The very terrorist we have been looking everywhere for nearly 10 years was living directly in the middle of a military community and no one knew?

Now is the time to bring our foreign aid back to our shores. the $18 billion and the loss of life are just not worth it.

- Jeffrey J. Showers, U.S. Army major retired, Ankeny

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby KrishG » 08 May 2011 20:34

A_Gupta wrote:Review of Anatole Lieven's book on Pakistan by Peter Oborne
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... eview.html

It would be good to read and deconstruct it.

On the contrary, Pakistan is remarkably stable and it is completely daft to compare it to failed states such as Somalia, Congo or Yemen. The key question, Lieven asks, is not why Islamist political movements are so strong in 21st-century Pakistan. It is why they are so weak. His argument is for the most part persuasive. Most Western commentators look for the wrong things. It is certainly true that the institutions imposed by the British before independence – above all parliamentary democracy and the rule of law – are failing.

But that does mean that Pakistan itself is failing? Democracy and the rule of law were imposed by the West and have never taken hold. The big, powerful forces in Pakistan remain the same as ever – family and tribe. It is a profoundly traditional society and Lieven argues that even destabilising forces such as the Taliban are best understood as new manifestations of something very ancient: the implacable hostility to the outside world demonstrated by Pathan tribes since time immemorial.
...
...
This client-based structure of Pakistani politics – comparable in certain important respects to Lewis Namier’s famous analysis of 18th-century British politics – is certainly a fundamental obstacle to progress. But this same conservatism also blocks all other movements and ideologies, whether socialism, military dictatorship or radical Islam. Life just carries on.


I agree for the most part except the "blocking of radical Islam". It was an ideology that would ensure that their traditional power hierarchy remained the same. That was the reason it was adopted while other ideologies like socialism etc which demand change in their fundamental and traditional beliefs about their society were/are rejected.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Naidu » 08 May 2011 21:06

kittoo wrote:
India told the General Council of the WTO, the organisation's topmost decision-making body, that the package would affect the exports of competing countries that would have to continue to pay 6%-12% import duties on textiles in the EU.

India also argued that the relief did not help flood victims in any way. Bangladesh, Peru and Vietnam supported India at the Council, which took up the matter after a lower level 'Goods Council' could not take a decision within the specified period of 90 days.


Nice!
Man we will really be in a very good position if we can make Vietnam our staunch ally.
With Bangladesh, the current govt seem on the correct path of economic integration.


Sorry to go OT, but a couple of points:

1) Vietnam is already an ally to India. Definitely the relationship can be upgraded and could do with a higher public profile, but overall, we are on the right path with Vietnam.

2) This subsidy that the EU was preparing to offer the Pakis would have had a horrible side effect had it been approved. The monetary gain for the Pakis would have been paid for by the textile industries of the countries which were disadvantaged by the 6-12% discount. So the Bangladesh, Vietnam and India's textile industries would be funding the flood relief to the Pakis, but the Euros would reap the benefits for it. The whole scheme was just too Paki if you know what I mean. If the Euros are really feeling that bad about the flood victims, they should send their money directly to the victims, don't subsidize it on the backs of third-party nations.

Glad it was denied.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Christopher Sidor » 08 May 2011 21:08

Pakistan's 82% budget for 2011-12 would go for three items
  • Debt Servicing
  • Defense
  • Running of civil administration.
Source The Daily times.

That leaves 18% for other purposes. How can an expenditure of 18% of the whole budget, meet the energy/electricity demands of Pakistan, schools/colleges/universities. It has been reported that there have been rolling power cuts of 12 hours or more in major cities. These have led to shortages in cng/petrol/disel. After all without electricity even petrol/gas pumps cannot dispense the fuel.

Is Pakistan going to become another PIIGS country?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby JE Menon » 08 May 2011 22:00

NDTV: Two blasts in Abbottabad.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Sadler » 08 May 2011 22:04

KLNMurthy wrote:...............Islam................ empire-smashing marauder meme that is a part of Islamic lore. There is more to Islam than that........


Actually, yes there is more to it. Rape of the infidel, looting their wealth etc. But not much more than that except for pillage and rapine. Such has been the historical nature of islam during and after mohammad, and I would argue that nothing has changed. Where islam is in dominance, its approach to kaffirs is no different today than mohammad's was in the 700's.

This is not the place to discuss this further, but I felt that i could not let go this sentence unchallenged.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby saip » 08 May 2011 22:09

Christopher Sidor wrote:Pakistan's 82% budget for 2011-12 would go for three items
  • Debt Servicing
  • Defense
  • Running of civil administration.
Source The Daily times.

That leaves 18% for other purposes. How can an expenditure of 18% of the whole budget, meet the energy/electricity demands of Pakistan, schools/colleges/universities. It has been reported that there have been rolling power cuts of 12 hours or more in major cities. These have led to shortages in cng/petrol/disel. After all without electricity even petrol/gas pumps cannot dispense the fuel.

Is Pakistan going to become another PIIGS country?


It has been that way for years and they survived. How? Blame it on their 3.5 friends.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby amdavadi » 08 May 2011 22:10

Porkis must be destroying rest of the evidance..Blow up the builing so na raha ga baas, na baje ge basuri...

Blowing up buildings & blowing up empty fields.... :lol: :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Mahendra » 08 May 2011 22:12

JE Menon wrote:NDTV: Two blasts in Abbottabad.


As there is enough water to use a hose pipe to wash away all the evidence, the tactically brilliant pakistanese have decided to use a blast

Or, may be the Americans came back to pick up Zawahiri from the next house

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Prem » 08 May 2011 22:14

kittoo wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:From the link posted above ^
[Do these guys even know the recent history?
No amount of pressure if going to make India yield Kashmir. We have been through much worse in much weaker state and even then nobody could take Kashmir. Nowadays, nations don't even talk about Kashmir lest it anger India and these guys think they can pressure us for something over it? LOL


If they bring in the question of J&K Muslim Jihadis then ask them if they are willing to take 150Million immigrants of same variety in their own homeland?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby CRamS » 08 May 2011 22:29

abhishek_sharma wrote:From the link posted above

Eliminating, or sharply reducing, military aid to Pakistan would have consequences, but they may not be the ones we fear. Diminishing the power of the military class would open up more room for civilian rule. Many Pakistanis are in favor of less U.S. aid; their slogan is “trade not aid.” In particular, Pakistani businessmen have long sought U.S. tax breaks for their textiles, which American manufacturers have resisted. Such a move would empower the civilian middle class. India would no doubt welcome a reduction in military aid to Pakistan, and the U.S. could use this as leverage to pressure India to allow the Kashmiris to vote on their future, which would very likely be a vote for independence. These two actions might do far more to enhance Pakistan’s stability, and to insure its friendship, than the billions of dollars that America now pays like a ransom.




Just the tone of this colonial arse hole is condescending and shows the contempt he has for India. He is shamelessly agreeing that US aid to the terrorist entity is a pressure point on India, and if US agrees to go back on such a diabolical policy of arming TSP against India, India must agree to give the Kashmiri Muslims what they want. India must tell these type of colonial chutiyas to shove a red hot iron into their back sides. Bloody b#$%^&rd.

Its like India saying, Oh jee we will give Al Quaida military aid, and we won't give them anymore as a way of pressuring uS to agree to Al Qudai's demands, namely, withdraw US troops from Arab lands, and give Palestinains their right of self of determination. Can you imagine anybody suggesting this to US?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby CRamS » 08 May 2011 22:34

X-posted from TSP thread

abhishek_sharma wrote:From the link posted above

Eliminating, or sharply reducing, military aid to Pakistan would have consequences, but they may not be the ones we fear. Diminishing the power of the military class would open up more room for civilian rule. Many Pakistanis are in favor of less U.S. aid; their slogan is “trade not aid.” In particular, Pakistani businessmen have long sought U.S. tax breaks for their textiles, which American manufacturers have resisted. Such a move would empower the civilian middle class. India would no doubt welcome a reduction in military aid to Pakistan, and the U.S. could use this as leverage to pressure India to allow the Kashmiris to vote on their future, which would very likely be a vote for independence. These two actions might do far more to enhance Pakistan’s stability, and to insure its friendship, than the billions of dollars that America now pays like a ransom.




Just the tone of this colonial arse hole is condescending and shows the contempt he has for India. He is shamelessly agreeing that US aid to the terrorist entity is a pressure point on India, and if US agrees to go back on such a diabolical policy of arming TSP against India, India must agree to give the Kashmiri Muslims what they want. India must tell these type of colonial chutiyas to shove a red hot iron into their back sides. Bloody b#$%^&rd.

Its like India saying, Oh jee we will give Al Quaida military aid, and we won't give them anymore as a way of pressuring uS to agree to Al Qudai's demands, namely, withdraw US troops from Arab lands, and give Palestinains their right of self of determination. Can you imagine anybody suggesting this to US?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Brad Goodman » 08 May 2011 22:34

PA preparing a dog & pony show for abduls and unkil

Pakistan Ambassador Vows 'Heads Will Roll' Following Bin Laden Probe

Pakistan's ambassador to the United States vowed Sunday that "heads will roll" following an investigation into how Usama bin Laden was able to hide out for years in a military city in northern Pakistan, as officials from both countries sought to ease tensions in the wake of bin Laden's death.


Amid discussion on Capitol Hill about the possibility of cutting off billions in U.S. aid to Pakistan, the country's U.S. ambassador said the U.S. and Pakistan "need each other" and will continue to cooperate.


Plus, he said, Pakistan was "offended" by the "violation of our sovereignty" allegedly inherent in the U.S. raid last weekend.

"America has a selling job to do in Pakistan, too. Convince more Pakistanis that you are more of our ally and, therefore, there would be less offense," Haqqani said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Brad Goodman » 08 May 2011 22:37

^^^ from the same link above

Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., in an interview with CNN's "State of the Union," said the U.S. should not suspend aid to Pakistan over its misgivings on bin Laden.

Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., also said the questions raised over bin Laden's location could actually present an opportunity to fix the myriad problems with the U.S.-Pakistani relationship.

"I see opportunity in all of this to sort of punch a reset button," Kerry told CBS' "Face the Nation."



Can some BRFites in Indiana and Mass please write to curry langoor. Let them face some heat from their constituency. Also I have a question for some NRI folks in US can people on H1/ L1 (non immigrant visa) as well as GC holders write to senators & congressmen or this is only meant for US citizens. I know many would be scared to write feeling they dont want to on other side of law. Though all are legit tax payers.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Brad Goodman » 08 May 2011 22:43

nothing new but just for archives

Gitmo detainees told US how ISI allowed attacks on India

The ISI facilitated militants to cross the border to carry out strikes on Indian targets chosen by the Pakistan Army, several detainees at the Guantanamo Bay facility told US interrogators, according to a fresh set of American diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks.

The interrogation reports quoted a detainee as saying that ISI "allowed" militants to travel to India where they conducted bombings, kidnappings and killing of Kashmiri people and the targets were picked up by the Pakistani Army.


The US was long aware of the presence of anti-India terror training camps in Pakistan with several inmates telling investigators how ISI allowed militants to carry attacks in India.


An Algerian detainee Abdul Azia admitted he was a member of LeT for which he noted that "their mission (was) to kill Indians in India", says a detailed report of his interrogation, released by the whistleblower website.
"Detainee is assessed to have recruited in Saudi Arabia and received training from the LT in Pakistan. The detainees is further assessed to have participated in combat in Kashmir, and then travelled to Afghanistan where he was injured," says a note about Azia.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby CRamS » 08 May 2011 22:45

Guys:

Just as it was soon after 9/11, this is another pivotal moment. TSP is in the docks and all kinds of guboing behind the scenes are going on. And we all know TSP's one and only objective and neurotic obsession is to make sure that any action it takes to please US will not alter the equal equal with India.

I argued aeons ago that Jasoo bhai & Vajpayee after 9/11 lost an opportunity to play hard ball with US and looked helplessly as Munna was conferred on TSP, and India was sold out.

India diplomacy must be on overdrive, or else we we could very see US sell India down the indus river once again as TSP gubos profusely provided its India gameplan is bolstered.

Is it not possible for somebody with a nationalist bone like PC in UPA govt to mount a political coup d'tat of sorts and sideline MMS before he colludes with Americans and sells India out?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Altair » 08 May 2011 23:08

CRamS wrote:Guys:
Is it not possible for somebody with a nationalist bone like PC in UPA govt to mount a political coup d'tat of sorts and sideline MMS before he colludes with Americans and sells India out?


CRamS
Congress is in a big doodoo. I live in Andhra Pradesh and this state is going for President rule for all terms and purposes. There is similar situation in other Congress states as well. They have no chance of majority in next election. Their only chance to out think BJP is to go jingo and nationalistic. If Sonia & co manage to extract HS out of Pakistan, Congress is going to have a huge shift of fortunes. But it would be only a stunt. Just to cover up their sell out to Americans and make it all look jingo. HS might be worth say..max 100 Crores! Its pea nuts for someone like Sonia but huge for that ISI guy sipping whiskey in Islamabad.
Lots of money is going to be made by Pakistani Army and ISI. Its going to be a treacherous and bloody few months in Pakistan.
Altair
PS: Am I sounding like a Paki with all paranoid and CT's?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Amber G. » 08 May 2011 23:33

Brad Goodman wrote:Can some BRFites in Indiana and Mass please write to curry langoor. Let them face some heat from their constituency. Also I have a question for some NRI folks in US can people on H1/ L1 (non immigrant visa) as well as GC holders write to senators & congressmen or this is only meant for US citizens. I know many would be scared to write feeling they dont want to on other side of law. Though all are legit tax payers.


Brad, one of the thing non-citizens should be careful about, is not to give money to anybody's campaign. As far as writing letters (or even giving them piece of your mind) should be okay. (One need not mention the status, unless it is relevant)

I know Kerry will/has get/gotten an earful.. :!:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby asprinzl » 08 May 2011 23:53

Unfortunately dear good folks on this forum, the outcome will not be what we all would hope for. The gubo-ing has been good for both the gubo-ee and the gubo-er. Gubo-er got his three minutes of whatever whenever he wants and the gubo-ee got his dollars whenever gubo happens. This is a mutually satisfaying contract and both the parties are not going abandon the agreement. Just like in all gubo-ing....sometimes there would be pain (9/11, drone attacks, Raymond Davis, Daniel Pearl, KSM, Abbotabad etc) but there are also times of great pleasure.

Let the parties stew in their own soup (aids, herpes etc). They all asked for it and despite the evidence of massive perfiddy, many of the gubo masters are still calling for the preservation of the gubo contract. Big F U to them all. Just make sure in the coming elections you, your family and friends don't vote for any of these bstrds (Republicans or Democrats or Tea Partiers or Coffee makers). Send them all to their retirement homes.

To have a new beginning, you dont want to have old hands sullying the room. Get new blood in.
Avram

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby jagga » 09 May 2011 00:03

The Osama aftermath: Where is ISI chief Pasha?
The influential Dawn newspaper had reported that Pasha had gone to Washington on a "critical mission for putting an end to misgivings about Pakistan in the US" but the sources said the ISI chief had not gone to the US. Some reports said Pasha may have travelled to a friendly country like China or Saudi Arabia but this could not immediately be confirmed.

May be Americans have some sort of evidence that Pasha protected the OBL.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Mahendra » 09 May 2011 00:06

jagga wrote:The Osama aftermath: Where is ISI chief Pasha?
The influential Dawn newspaper had reported that Pasha had gone to Washington on a "critical mission for putting an end to misgivings about Pakistan in the US" but the sources said the ISI chief had not gone to the US. Some reports said Pasha may have travelled to a friendly country like China or Saudi Arabia but this could not immediately be confirmed.

May be Americans have some sort of evidence that Pasha protected the OBL.


Or, Pasha could be the guy rumoured to have been picked up along with OBL's body.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby CRamS » 09 May 2011 00:07

asprinzl:

I don't mind the guboing, especially if the one who gets gubo-ee does not sell India down the Indus river. We all know what the objectives of the gubo-er are. Its up to the gubo-ee to make sure that the gubo-er does not make a distinction between "good terrorists" and "bad terrorists", and the gubo-ee's leverage over the gubo-er are unprecedented in the aftermath of OBL's killing.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby svinayak » 09 May 2011 00:10

CRamS wrote: Its up to the gubo-ee to make sure that the gubo-er does not make a distinction between "good terrorists" and "bad terrorists", and the gubo-ee's leverage over the gubo-er are unprecedented in the aftermath of OBL's killing.

It is something bigger and the objective is global for the west. By bringing in a global terror mind they are able to rally all the Xtians of the west and bring them to fight a global just war which they want to use it for paradigm change in the world. This is a revival of their medivial movement

If they focus on India related Islamic terror then it loses the focus and it gets diffused. All the western media only focuses on the attacks on the west and how the threat is to their way of life. Eastern countries and non western world cannot be given media attention since it reduces the image and purpose of the media based anti terror movement.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Vivek_A » 09 May 2011 01:06

Brad Goodman wrote:nothing new but just for archives

Gitmo detainees told US how ISI allowed attacks on India

The ISI facilitated militants to cross the border to carry out strikes on Indian targets chosen by the Pakistan Army, several detainees at the Guantanamo Bay facility told US interrogators, according to a fresh set of American diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks.

The interrogation reports quoted a detainee as saying that ISI "allowed" militants to travel to India where they conducted bombings, kidnappings and killing of Kashmiri people and the targets were picked up by the Pakistani Army.


The US was long aware of the presence of anti-India terror training camps in Pakistan with several inmates telling investigators how ISI allowed militants to carry attacks in India.


An Algerian detainee Abdul Azia admitted he was a member of LeT for which he noted that "their mission (was) to kill Indians in India", says a detailed report of his interrogation, released by the whistleblower website.
"Detainee is assessed to have recruited in Saudi Arabia and received training from the LT in Pakistan. The detainees is further assessed to have participated in combat in Kashmir, and then travelled to Afghanistan where he was injured," says a note about Azia.



The only people this is news to is Manmohan "let's play cricket" Singh and the Gandhi family coterie...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby anmol » 09 May 2011 01:13

Following is a link for a CSPAN discussion titled "Death of Osama Bin Laden and the future of Pakistan"

Panelists are Sadanand Dhume(Wall Street Journal), Peter Hoekstra(U.S. Representative (Former)),Frederick W. Kagan (American Enterprise Institute), Shuja Nawaz(Atlantic Council), Danielle Pletka (American Enterprise Institute)

At around 32-33 minutes into discussion, Sadanand Dhume says that Richard Armitage "Will Bomb you back to stone age" GUBO session was pretty effective and another such session can motivate Pakistanis to do lot more :P .

With Paki H&D in tatters, Shuja Nawaz says that and no "Bomb you back to stone age" GUBO session ever took place and Sadanand Dhume shouldn't base his views on a piece of fiction that is Musharraf's autobiography which makes that claim. He also says Pakistanis never aspired for any "Strategic Depth".

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby CRamS » 09 May 2011 01:37

Vivek_A wrote:
The only people this is news to is Manmohan "let's play cricket" Singh and the Gandhi family coterie...


Please sir, you are giving him way too much credit than he deserves. Its not news to him, he knows about it, but like his Paki brothers and his Amercian masters, its equal equal in his mind, India has "Hindu extremists" and TSP needs LeT to counter them and its completely undertstandable why ISI would support LeT. And KMs have been oppressed by the "fascist Hindu army". Thats why India & TSP need to play cricket, India needs to give Kashmir to TSP (with "borders are irrelevant" to start with), meet TSP more than half way on any demand t makes, and we all live happily as "South Asians" ever after as American vassals, as he retires to a suburb in Virginia, collects the Nobel "piss" prize, and who knows he might even get a spot in the Arlington national cemetery as one who served Amercian interests so very well.
Last edited by CRamS on 09 May 2011 02:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby Vivek_A » 09 May 2011 01:56

So it's the fault of the "American masters" that MMS is so eager to forget 26/11 and play cricket with the pakis?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Postby CRamS » 09 May 2011 02:49

Vivek_A wrote:So it's the fault of the "American masters" that MMS is so eager to forget 26/11 and play cricket with the pakis?


No its not their fault, it is MMS's predilection and his Amercian masters a catalyst. The fault lies with the Indian people for tolerating someone like MMS as their leader.


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