Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 2011

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 10:02

Rahul M wrote:who said they were working ? they were probably living in the base. if they were working they would probably have been caught in the attack.

ramana ji, even 600 km, minimum distance considering K15's range is beyond orion's effective zone. do note that the retd Commodore who wrote that article is an experienced ASW operator himself.

I doubt Khan folks would be living on the base, they'd be in a hotel, Even Paki Navy folks are bussed into the base (Remember the PN folks who were halald some weeks back) Probably, the Orions had some urgent work to be done and hence they were at it, still doubtfull. Also if there were 10+ Khan folks in an open area working on 3-4 planes (see couple of them were parked so close to each other in a line... then there should have been sentries around them... did they just melt away at the first sign of trouble? all maaya onlee..

more we mull this, more questions arise, no answers... The Najam Sethi Interview posted above asks so many questions... couldn't understand the answers in Urdu...

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 24 May 2011 10:04

ramana wrote: ...
Then they will let off a dirty nuke on Mumbai in Shiv Sena bhavan and watch the aftermath. UPA will tie itself in knots as to how to respond. Half of Pawar/INC guys will be gloating. Other half will be dead.
...

Sir,

I have been doing some dhoti shivering along similar lines for last few weeks or so. The question in my mind is when faced with their seemingly fast approaching internal collapse, what would the Pakistani establishment do: go down and disappear quietly or lob a few nukes on India in the hopes of going down and fulfilling their desire for an apocalyptic judgement day (which most Abrahamic faiths have an infatuation with) flash of total nuclear retaliation and exchange. I am starting to think that it is the latter option that they will prefer.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 24 May 2011 10:05

ranjbe wrote:The P3C if nuclear-armed, would not only be detected by radiation sniffers on satelllites or AWACs.

what are these "sniffers" that can achieve this feat?

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 24 May 2011 10:06

Sanku wrote:BTW, the PNS Mehran, essentially shares the airfield with the Pork eater Inter-ummah Airport in Karachi.

Quite likely that all sorts of nationalities are milling around the complex in any case.

In fact I am quite disappointed that no inter-ummah flights got accidentally hit.

<snip>
unprovoked personal attack edited out. consider this an unofficial warning.
Rahul.

1. The post starts off with a wrong premise. PNS Mehran does not share the strip or any component with KHI. There are enough Google Earth maps floating around for you to know that. The air-strips themselves are 4-5 Km apart.

2. That comment about the inter-ummah flight being hit is far out. What good will come off that?

Please exercise some judgement before posting.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 10:10

IF Pukes use a dirty bomb, even MMS would not keep quite. India would retaliate with full force. I hope Pakees know it. India has postulated its nuclear doctrine which enunciates its response. Once there is a nuclear attack in India, whether delivered by PAF planes, missiles or Jehadis or even Carrier Pigeons, all bets are off and it would be an "All out attack".

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 24 May 2011 10:11

Did any western media outlet confirm that Americans were on the base when the attack occurred ? It could purely be Paki propaganda to make its problem a problem for the west.Besides, the attack started at 10:20 PM Pakistani time on a sunday night, why would the Americans risk working in a cloak of darkness that late at night ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 10:12

Dhiman wrote:
ramana wrote: ...
Then they will let off a dirty nuke on Mumbai in Shiv Sena bhavan and watch the aftermath. UPA will tie itself in knots as to how to respond. Half of Pawar/INC guys will be gloating. Other half will be dead.
...
Sir,

I have been doing some dhoti shivering along similar lines for last few weeks or so. The question in my mind is when faced with their seemingly fast approaching internal collapse, what would the Pakistani establishment do: go down and disappear quietly or lob a few nukes on India in the hopes of going down and fulfilling their desire for an apocalyptic judgement day (which most Abrahamic faiths have an infatuation with) flash of total nuclear retaliation and exchange. I am starting to think that it is the latter option that they will prefer.

Well everyone should be allowed his delusions. Maybe they don;t have any working, deliverable nukes for that.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 24 May 2011 10:24

Sanku wrote:
Karna_A wrote: The other thing why would TTP attack Navy planes to be used against India.
According to BRaman, TSPN is the arm working most enthusiastically with US and west in putting down the jahil talebs.

That may well be true, but TSPN assets are also the least defended among TSPAF and TSPA and hence easier target than others.
Moroever all TSPN assets are at Karachi so for Karachi yahoos that's the easiest target.

There is a distinct possibility that one or more Afghan militia factions have got so much disgusted with TSP perfidy in their country and have become nationalistic and have figured out that the only way AFG can really prosper is by TSP destruction. This faction is probably working with fringe TTP or Baluchis to take revenge on TSPA and TSPN and hence Rawalpindi, Karachi and Sri Lanka team attacks. They may be trained by Iran and funded by Oman and probably CIA. Oman's royal family is extensively related to Pakistani baluch tribes. Of course, some serving or retired TSP officers are always involved.
That would mean that slowly everyone has started doubting everyone else and everyone is against everyone in TSP which is back to tribal glory days.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 May 2011 10:32

Najam Sethi is really pis*ed here.

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 24 May 2011 10:35

Dhiman wrote:
ramana wrote: ...
Then they will let off a dirty nuke on Mumbai in Shiv Sena bhavan and watch the aftermath. UPA will tie itself in knots as to how to respond. Half of Pawar/INC guys will be gloating. Other half will be dead.
...
Sir,

I have been doing some dhoti shivering along similar lines for last few weeks or so. The question in my mind is when faced with their seemingly fast approaching internal collapse, what would the Pakistani establishment do: go down and disappear quietly or lob a few nukes on India in the hopes of going down and fulfilling their desire for an apocalyptic judgement day (which most Abrahamic faiths have an infatuation with) flash of total nuclear retaliation and exchange. I am starting to think that it is the latter option that they will prefer.

Dhiman ji,
I doubt they will do the second option because at the end of the day, ideology is more valuable than material and physical life for them....the likely way, they will try out is to carve out Pakistaniyat from some other place in the Subcontinent after the same experiment has been failed in the Indus basin....lets be very clear abt this....Armageddon is not their option neither they intend to do...ultimately their love for materialism is much much more than their fear of death....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 10:39

the US is believed to have shared 'laser simulation' techs with france to get them into the CTBT. this supposedly permits simulation testing without the real bumb. the french are world class at supercomputers, physics, chemistry and maths anyway.
US coop with UK probably runs far older and deeper - true biraders in thick and thin.
the chinese after being cut loose by the russia after 1971 about turn in relations seem to have done their stuff both alone and by stealing from the rest P4...
the US-Israel nuclear link is unknown...

only US, Rus, France and India can probably be said to have had truly independent nuclear weapon programs starting from scratch ? and india is always 'accused' of repurposing candu tech...

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 24 May 2011 10:50

SwamyG wrote: First, why would India do that? It is like playing with fire. Talibans have shown that they will bit the hand that feeds them. They are like the parasites that destroy the host. India is wise enough to not play with such species.

To understand and anticipate taliban moves, one needs to know Pashtunwali - their tribal code of conduct. It's not Pashtuns that bit the hand that fed them. Rather, it was the perceived treachery of TSPA (allowing drone strikes, throroughfare for INSAF etc etc.) that they are acting against. If any thing, Taliban has shown that it will go to ridiculously stupid extents (totally non-realpolitik) to maintain their code of honour.

An enemy's enemy is ones friend. So there shouldn't be any hesitation in extending "moral support" for their actions against TSPA that claims Jee-i-had-a-Fistulla as it's motto.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 24 May 2011 10:56

My guess is that US insisted on carpet bombing N.Waziristan and ear marked B-52. Pakis pleaded saying that they will use their planes. With F-16's scuttelled (unconfirmed reports), only options wa sto go for P-3C orions. Chinese ordianry bombs were mated with the A/c. US officals wathicng the proceedings

Telebunnies got the wind of it and hence the reaction

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 May 2011 11:39

symontk wrote:My guess is that US insisted on carpet bombing N.Waziristan and ear marked B-52. Pakis pleaded saying that they will use their planes. With F-16's scuttelled (unconfirmed reports), only options wa sto go for P-3C orions. Chinese ordianry bombs were mated with the A/c. US officals wathicng the proceedings

Telebunnies got the wind of it and hence the reaction

Hmmm...very plausible reason indeed!!! Else, specifically targetting the P-3C and walking out once its done ( though there were tons of other crafts waiting to meet their 72) doesn't make sense..

kidoman · Post by **kidoman** » 24 May 2011 11:49

Apologies if already posted..
Pakistan to ask US for two more Orion planes

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will ask the United States to supply it two additional PC-3 Orion planes for its Navy to make up the deficiency of the loss of two planes which were destroyed by the terrorists on Sunday evening at Mehran Air Base Karachi in an act of terrorism.
Pakistan being an ally of the US in the so-called war on terrorism reserves the right for making such demand. The Defence Committee of the Cabinet (DCC) that will discuss various aspects of the matter in its meeting on Wednesday could take a position about the demand.

Pakistan’s plea has strong backing in view of the act of terrorism that caused the destruction of the two planes. Pakistan Naval Aviation is an important arm of the Pakistan Navy and assists in the surface and submarine flights to guarantee the safety of Pakistan sea borders.The loss of the planes could weaken the capacity of the Navy in actions against the terror activities across the sea.

The headquarters remained on its toes the whole night. The CNS will submit detailed technical report about the whole terrible episode in the DCC, the sources said. The sources pointed out that Pakistan Navy’s aviation force currently consists of three Westland Lynx - anti-ship/anti-submarine/transport helicopters, six Westland Sea King Mk45 - Anti Submarine/ Anti Surface Warfare helicopters (Based at Karachi), eight Aerospatiale SA-319B Alouette III - transport/anti-ship helicopters, seven Lockheed P-3C Orion - maritime surveillance/ anti-submarine warfare aircraft/airborne early warning. Future supply of seven more under an agreement with Lockheed Martin signed in 2006; two upgraded P-3C Orion delivered on 7th Jan 2010 while one was delivered in Nov 2009. Another two advanced P-3C Orion aircraft to be delivered soon (Two of the upgraded version have been destroyed overnight terrorism action), seven Fokker F27-200 Friendship - maritime surveillance aircraft, four Hawker 850 - VIP transport aircraft, two Breguet Atlantique, one maritime surveillance/anti-submarine warfare aircraft, thirty two Dassault Mirage V - anti-ship attack aircraft flown by PAF which are based at PAF base Masroor in Karachi, (operated by the PAF), Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, twelve Harbin Z-9EC anti-submarine warfare helicopters equipped with a surface-search radar, low frequency dipping sonar, radar warning receiver, Doppler navigation system and armed with torpedoes.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 24 May 2011 11:57

The discrepancy in the number of militants is interesting. Also interesting is how the attack ended - from militants holed up in one building with foreign hostages to "all militants dead and no hostages".

Looks like they took the Chinies as hostage and then negotiated a safe passage. At least 10 of them got away.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 May 2011 11:57

Considering that the important point on the presence of Chinese and American personal was side tracked by the personal attacks made on me by VikramS, let me try and reiterate the basic point.

It is not necessarily a major point that Chinese and American personnel were found in close proximity given the nature in which PAF bases (both Faisal and Masroor) are used regularly for. I am sure that shipments for Nato are flown from this airbase as well as to Chinese facilities elsewhere in Pakistan.

What this means is nothing more than yet another confirmation that PRC-US-Chinese nexus is alive and well, despite the hiccups that come its way, at least as of right, now. We have just more visible proof now from Mehran. Possibly the same happens elsewhere too.

If the Orions were indeed being retrofitted in a joint project, that can be considered possible even without the information that we recently got. In fact I would go on to claim that this is possibly just the tip of iceberg in terms of places where possibly, joint work is being carried out.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 24 May 2011 12:09

Another 'juicy' possibility is that the inside information was provided by the american civilian contractors working there!

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 24 May 2011 12:12

In what way the Taliban and / or AQ harmed or intended to harm India--I do not recall any Taliban good or bad-- threat to India. Similarly If my memory serves me right OBL was never interested in K or any other Indian issue or threatened India.
If that is the case why should we not build bridges with Taliban and if they want to rule Afghan or Pak --let them. The enemies of Pak Army/ISI or USA need not be our enemies.
A religious group ruling Pakistan is better than current thugs of PA/ISI
May be I am not getting it right?

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 24 May 2011 12:14

^^^ But the map posted by VikramS shows a national highway running between KHI and Faisal/Mehran - so they obviously do not share airstrips. If they did want to do economic damage they could have attacked KHI airport directly instead of a roundabout way of attacking Faisal, collecting stingers and then hitting civillian aircrafts. The target was purely the TSP armed forces.

If civillians had to be hit - a more damaging impact would be if they hit areas in Lahore / Pindi - the base of pakjab. Why screw Sindh any more? The target killings are doing it anyway. It is Pakjab which is safe.

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 May 2011 12:25

R Vaidya wrote:In what way the Taliban and / or AQ harmed or intended to harm India--I do not recall any Taliban good or bad-- threat to India. Similarly If my memory serves me right OBL was never interested in K or any other Indian issue or threatened India.
If that is the case why should we not build bridges with Taliban and if they want to rule Afghan or Pak --let them.

Remember IC-814 and the reason why it was taken to Afghanistan ? OBL did speak about K multiple times.

The enemies of Pak Army/ISI or USA need not be our enemies. A religious group ruling Pakistan is better than current thugs of PA/ISI.May be I am not getting it right?

The Taliban are the proxy of the PA . The "friends" that India has in Afghanistan is the Tajik/Uzbeg northern alliance. The best thing that could happen to india strategically is if Afghanistan is partitioned, India can continue supporting the Northern Alliance part of Afghanistan,the new Pashtunistan will demand the FATA and other areas on the east of the Durand line and that Pasthunistan will renew the traditional friendship and relationship with India and Pakiland will get squeezed like a nut in a nutcracker between the two.

That is the nightmare scenarios that the Pakis want to avoid by keeping and Indian role out of Afghanistan. I do think that a multi ethnic Afghanistan is unviable. The Pashtuns deserve their own country and the other minorities are distinct.

That partition of Afghanistan is the Plan B of US as it withdraws. I am willing to wager that Pakistan will create conditions to make sure that it becomes plan A when the US withdraws.

The Northern Alliance part will be protected by India, Russia and the the US, while the Pashtun part will have US presence in kandhar and Kabul and can work to draw in the "good taliban" back to the Pashtunistan and then erase the Durand line (which Afghanistan never recognized anyways) and claim the Khyber Pakthunwa province, FATA and the other Pashtun areas.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 24 May 2011 12:32

FIR, Malik present contradictory account of PNS base attack

KARACHI: Noticeable contradictions have appeared in the statement of Interior Minister Rehman Malik and the FIR registered at Shara-e-Faisal Police Station regarding Taliban militants’ attack on PNS Mehran base.

The FIR has exposed Rehman Malik’s lack of knowledge about the actual facts of naval base attack.

Briefing media about the end of operation, Malik had claimed that four terrorists were killed and two managed to flee.

According to the FIR (2011/447) under clause 303, 324, 427, 353, the attack took place at 10:25pm. Ten to 12 militants sneaked into the naval base by crossing boundary walls.

Terrorists fired rockets at two planes, hurled grenades and started firing.

It further said that four Kalashnikovs, 10 hand grenades, one launcher and two suicide vests were recovered from the possession of terrorists. SAMAA

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 May 2011 12:39

there are american, french and chinese aircraft on site. it is a main maintenance base - not surprising that engineers or other personnel are present from both nationalities. no reason to suspect anything above the ordinary

the attackers headed for the flight line where they could see aircraft and attacked the first few they could find. the reason that more aircraft were not torched was probably because they were not carrying enough RPG's or grenades to hit more. it was a small force and they had to cover a lot of ground - most likely they would have carried more AK rounds than RPG's. very unlikely that they sought out the al-jabbar's specifically to be targetted

there is a high likelihood that the other aircraft were sprayed with ak-phyrr (inshallah!)

also, quite clear that PN and possibly other forces installations in the karachi area did not expect or fear any kind of infiltration attack. that shows that they viewed the virus strain in karachi as being different to the virus strain in the punjab and again different to the virus strain in pashtunishtan... perhaps the virii are merging into one?

enjoy paquis, this is the least that you deserve for your psychotic obsession and evil propagation of terror
schadenfreude++

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 May 2011 12:50

cheenum wrote:
Rahul M wrote:who said they were working ? they were probably living in the base. if they were working they would probably have been caught in the attack.

ramana ji, even 600 km, minimum distance considering K15's range is beyond orion's effective zone. do note that the retd Commodore who wrote that article is an experienced ASW operator himself.
I doubt Khan folks would be living on the base, they'd be in a hotel, Even Paki Navy folks are bussed into the base (Remember the PN folks who were halald some weeks back)

not necessarily, this is karachi after all. why risk lives by staying in hotel when pakis can certainly provide colonial sahib standard accommodation for a handful of americans inside the 'secure' base ?
pakis would have their homes in the city and it's anyway difficult to provide accommodation to all staff of a major base. so that's a separate issue.

Probably, the Orions had some urgent work to be done and hence they were at it, still doubtfull. Also if there were 10+ Khan folks in an open area working on 3-4 planes (see couple of them were parked so close to each other in a line... then there should have been sentries around them... did they just melt away at the first sign of trouble? all maaya onlee..

don't think they were working or we would have heard reports of them being caught in crossfire or at least narrowly escaping.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 24 May 2011 13:01

I very much doubt any one would be working at 10:30PM on a weekend (at least for the Americans). The planes which were damaged were out in the open; the workers were more likely in their night quarters.

There were reports that the less pious had some problem engaging the foreigners since the foreigners were not sure about the piousness of whom they were dealing with. It took some time for the foreigners to be comfortable of the piousness of the rescue party. After the less pious verified their degree of piousness, the foreigners were herded into armored vehicles. The more pious then sprayed those vehicles with AK phyrr but the armor held.

As RahulM pointed out to me, the next time the more pious attack TSP air assets, they should also include some Incendiary rounds in their magazines. That way even if they run out of explosives, AK phyrr in the wings and the belly will likely result in enough fuel leakage to light the pyre.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 May 2011 13:04

VikramS wrote:I very much doubt any one would be working at 10:30PM on a weekend (at least for the Americans). The planes which were damaged were out in the open; the workers were more likely in their night quarters.

Not necessarily a big deal. BRaman says the orions are being used to monitor NATO supply ships and other surveillance for sea borne insertions around Karachi.

Probably they were being readied for their next mission.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 May 2011 13:05

R Vaidya wrote:In what way the Taliban and / or AQ harmed or intended to harm India--I do not recall any Taliban good or bad-- threat to India. Similarly If my memory serves me right OBL was never interested in K or any other Indian issue or threatened India.
If that is the case why should we not build bridges with Taliban and if they want to rule Afghan or Pak --let them. The enemies of Pak Army/ISI or USA need not be our enemies.
A religious group ruling Pakistan is better than current thugs of PA/ISI
May be I am not getting it right?

With regard to the Taliban, India should pursue a 3. point program:

Northern Afghanistan is hardened, so that the Taliban have no chance whatsoever in extending their domination there.
In Southern and Eastern Afghanistan, the American forces should retreat, so that the Taliban have no excuse to continue the war.
All efforts are taken to wean away the Pushtuns, especially the Taliban, from the control of Pakistan.

We could open a Taliban liaison office in Qandahar or Jalalabad, primarily to talk about humanitarian issues with Taliban, how we can support the medical infrastructure in areas under their control, how we can provide critical surgery for those who need it, etc. All transactions from this office should take place only with Taliban area commanders. If the Taliban wish, they should also be allowed to open an office in New Delhi. Of course, we have to be aware that the Pakistanis would try to give Indians a bad name, perhaps by tampering with the medicines.

We need to open channels of communication with the Taliban.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 May 2011 13:05

yes indeed, avgas does not light with matches... needs something stronger

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 May 2011 13:16

Lalmohan wrote: enjoy paquis, this is the least that you deserve for your psychotic obsession and evil propagation of terror
schadenfreude++

++ to the entire post.

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 May 2011 13:22

Lalmohan wrote:yes indeed, avgas does not light with matches... needs something stronger

They will be using turbine fuel (ATF). AVgas is 100 octane petrol types onree, will light with a match easily.That is used for piston engined planes which nowdays are restricted to private small planes onree. ATF is a kerosene like fuel which is used in turbines.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 13:36

About "American personnel" - the could be Pakis with US passport. An air base is like a hospital - 24x7 work and would have people on duty 24x7 - so the presence of foreign personnel at night is not unusual.

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 24 May 2011 13:37

RajeshA wrote:
R Vaidya wrote:In what way the Taliban and / or AQ harmed or intended to harm India--I do not recall any Taliban good or bad-- threat to India. Similarly If my memory serves me right OBL was never interested in K or any other Indian issue or threatened India.
If that is the case why should we not build bridges with Taliban and if they want to rule Afghan or Pak --let them. The enemies of Pak Army/ISI or USA need not be our enemies.
A religious group ruling Pakistan is better than current thugs of PA/ISI
May be I am not getting it right?
With regard to the Taliban, India should pursue a 3. point program:

Northern Afghanistan is hardened, so that the Taliban have no chance whatsoever in extending their domination there.

In Southern and Eastern Afghanistan, the American forces should retreat, so that the Taliban have no excuse to continue the war.

All efforts are taken to wean away the Pushtuns, especially the Taliban, from the control of Pakistan.
We could open a Taliban liaison office in Qandahar or Jalalabad, primarily to talk about humanitarian issues with Taliban, how we can support the medical infrastructure in areas under their control, how we can provide critical surgery for those who need it, etc. All transactions from this office should take place only with Taliban area commanders. If the Taliban wish, they should also be allowed to open an office in New Delhi. Of course, we have to be aware that the Pakistanis would try to give Indians a bad name, perhaps by tampering with the medicines.

We need to open channels of communication with the Taliban.

Excellent points. I was given to understand by a very reliable source that during PVN time we did have understanding with several such groups including incipient Talibans.. We even funded some--one condition is always look west or near east but not far east. PVN says that he is from Kurnool and he knows fractional politics plus he undestands Primordial tribal affinities.

This Kandhahar Plane business is not Taliban done but ISI done and Taliban were forced to go along with it.
As far as OBL on K --it was token talk to give comfort to his hosts--He never included India in his US/JEW axis. We might have been too small for his arabian idealogy/strategy.
My reading is that any group from afganistan--sons of soil--cannot be intrinsically anti-India since old Indic civilisational remnants are still in their genes.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 May 2011 13:49

Reading Kidoman post above, looks the PN will have 15 P-3C's and in total of about 30 Fixed Wing and 30 Helicopters plus Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. and 32 Maritime attack Mirages of the PAF. Thier Sub fleet conists of 3 old Dalphens, 3 Old Augustas and 3 Augusta 90B and 8 CHinese SUbmarines on order.

Considering the IN has only 12 submarines isn't the PN aviation and submarine arms way too many than requirements and represents a serious and ever present danger to the IN.

We really need to beef up to take the PN out quickly in the event of war.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 24 May 2011 13:57

Vaidyaji,
I think you are not right on Indic memes.The Taliban are essentially primitive/barbarian and even the kabul elite looked up to Persian influence.But given Indias rise and pakiness of pakis,it will be not be surprising if people recall non-existent Indian roots.The Indic influences in AfghanishtAN vanished around 1000 AD.

Indias influence in Afghanisthan in recent times has little to do with ancient history.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 14:03

sir I dont know about the 15 P3C, but the two ancient Daphne (hangor class it was called iirc) are retired and the two old Agosta's are soon to be. PN's future is the 3 x Agosta90b and whatever Yuan/Song clones/hand-me-downs it can get from china. I would be very skeptical about the 8 chinese submarines part...maybe 3-4. at present they have 3 sea going subs, 1 of it with AIP.
dhoti shiver is prudent always but I wouldnt shiver too much at PN.

the MirageIII "haiders" are pretty long in the tooth themselves, worn out, kept flying using cannibal parts from libyan boneyard they picked up cheaply (vs costly OEM parts from france)....they urgently need replacement and I believe Bandar is it.

their orions will be used to guard a small region around karachi and gwader against intrusions by IN ships/subs....you'd need 30-40 to reach further out 24x7 and present a threat in the deep ocean...rather its easier to sneak up down the gujarat coast and fire missiles in general directions of large targets like Jamnagar or bombay high rigs - they will hit something.

the oil rigs have just MANPAD shooters , so there's no way they can detect let alone target harpoons/exocets unless a IN warship were at hand .... earlier I had visions of a "warship" oil rig modded to hold around 200 SAMs with a big radar dome on top and parked north of the rigs. then I realized having a IN ship patrol there is far cheaper and practical.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 May 2011 14:14

Anyways its too many and its time Indians start poitning out Pakistan is over armed. 1/4th land area, 1/7th population armed force men and material should be 1/4th in number No.

And based on what you said look the 7P-3c plus 7 they are getting seem to be most potent weapons, so I were GOI I would crying, using p-8I, M-777, C-17, commercial jet purchase deals as leverage to reduce this backshesh along with have keys to kill switches for F-16's in Indian hands.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 24 May 2011 14:26

The Onions have a Magnetic anamoly detector that's sensitive instrumentation detecting changes in the Earths natural magnetic field as the metallic sub hull passes through it. This detection requires very sensitive instrumentation and requires the sub to be in the vicinity nearby. Open ocean and deep sea it is very difficult. Latest subs including Arihant would have wiring on the hull and computers to calculate counter currents required to be generated to neutralize change in flux as the sub hull passes through the Earths magnetic field. So detection through MAD gets even tougher. Technology one day probably could exist when it's possible to place sats in space with equipment that could detect anamoly over a large swathe of ocean. Minus the anamloies due to known shipping etc, it may be possible to detect subs..but that sort of capability is just not there.

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 May 2011 14:27

On May 22 the UK’s Financial Times carried a story quoting the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Defence Minister Chaudhary Ahmed Mukhtar that P.R. China had been approached to build a Naval Base at Gwadar:

Pakistan turns to China for naval base

By Farhan Bokhari in Islamabad and Kathrin Hille in Beijing

Published: May 22 2011 13:22 | Last updated: May 22 2011 19:46

Pakistan has asked China to build a naval base at its south-western port of Gwadar and expects the Chinese navy to maintain a regular presence there, a plan likely to alarm both India and the US.

“We have asked our Chinese brothers to please build a naval base at Gwadar,” Chaudhary Ahmed Mukhtar, Pakistan’s defence minister, told the Financial Times, confirming that the request was conveyed to China during a visit last week by Yusuf Raza Gilani, Pakistan’s prime minister. ……………………..

FT

The Taller than Mountains, Deeper than Oceans “Chinese Brothers” seem to be playing deaf and now claim they have heard of no such request

:

China says it is unaware of Gwadar port proposal

There seems to be a consistent pattern by the senior leadership of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan on their foreign visits to make claims that are subsequently rejected by the host governments. Recollect the then Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi claiming 2 years ago that France was prepared to provide an India like Nuclear deal to the Islamic Republic, a claim which the French rejected outright.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 14:33

afaik the MAD stinger in tail is used only after sonobuoys have very much localized the contact , and needs the a/c to fly low over the water....not really standoff sensor .... the US has deleted the MAD on P8A but P8I retains it.

wiki
In mid-2008, the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment. This was part of a NAVAIR-directed effort to reduce P-8A aircraft weight by 3,500 lb (1,600 kg) to improve aircraft range and endurance. P-8Is destined for the Indian Navy will continue to retain MAD. The P-8A will use a new hydrocarbon sensor to detect fuel vapors from diesel submarines and other conventionally powered ships.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 24 May 2011 14:38

Vaidya Ji, alliances must be made with people/ groups/ nations that share similar value systems primarily. Any other type of alliance is bound to fail and rebound with repurcussions galore with interest. Too many examples in history i could keep quoting. If at all there is engagement with barbaric ideologies as the Taliban it should be one of expediency and very short term direct benefit under very rare and compelling circumstances and no more. Look at TSP itself it is purely anti Indian, authoritative, militaristic, doesn't believe in pluralistic value systems..who does it genuinely get along with? China. It's alliance with the West etc are breaking it from the seams due to contradictions that are being exposed now to every aam hilda, joe, shyam, abdul the world over. "real politic' is a loser game ultimately. Short term benefits yes you can get, but to use real politic continuosly as a policy mission over engaging and standing by/ defending your own value systems, down grades what you should cherish most. Compromise (with your own value system) should never be state policy. Real politic engages in a continuos compromise or negates 'value system'. That leads to contradictions that can destroy a society or 'civilization'. India has not survived so long civilizationally by doing real politic. It has by standing by and fighting to preserve it's own value systems.