India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Boreas » 21 May 2011 21:33

Rahul M wrote:
NRao wrote:BTW, Germans are reducing the size of their army by 45,000 to 172,000. Data point.

krishnan wrote:Thats not reducing , thats increasing

how is a cut of 45,000 not reducing ? :-?

Probably, instead of this -
Present size - 45,000 = 172,000

He got this -
Present size = 45,000
Now going to = 172,000
Hence increase!
:roll:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 21 May 2011 23:13

Boreas wrote:Probably, instead of this -
Present size - 45,000 = 172,000

He got this -
Present size = 45,000
Now going to = 172,000
Hence increase!
:roll:


Quite a bit off topic, but the reduction in numbers is mostly staff. Germany will have more combat troops after the reform. The army will probably get an additional infantry brigade.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 22 May 2011 01:34

rafale weapons (brimstones and rocket are not yet integrated but AdA is interested) :

Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 22 May 2011 04:23

Is there a better resolution pic? I can't read the text under each weapon listed above?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Prasad » 22 May 2011 04:25

That picture was posted here earlier too. You shd be able to find it in the earlier pages or the previous thread (not sure which).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Shrinivasan » 22 May 2011 07:13

Link to a higher resolution picture please.

Admin Note: Please refer to post above.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby raj-ji » 22 May 2011 09:27

SaiK wrote:^do you know France is notorious in supplies to pakistan after a successful sale to India? take submarines, mirages, for a few. The point is we can't base purchases based on such relationships, rather based on requirements.

All strategic aspects must be covered by ToT, home grown technology infusion, and establishing certain advantages over the enemy by such capabilities. bottom line /end of the day, is all about what you have that enemy does not have, and there is no way in the world to be envious of your neighbor purchasing the same device you bought. Better work on, what is that makes it better for your doctrine.


Definitely agree with you that we should look out for ourselves first. The concern that several have is that we are unsure how the EF countries (UK, Germany, Italy) will react in times of conflict. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't. But this is just 1 opinion.

At the end of the day, the MMRCA has shortlisted IMHO the two best candidates, and while we have our favourites (Rafale for me), either of these will be a great addition to the IAF. This is very much a buyers market, will be interesting to see what the two chosen will throw in to sweeten the pot.

The MMRCA has been full of surprises, and IMO the most surprising is that the GOI chose the two (and only the two) shortlisted by the IAF. The government putting the needs of the armed forces before politics, who could have imagined that. Not something to take for granted.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby ashish raval » 22 May 2011 13:01

^do you know France is notorious in supplies to pakistan after a successful sale to India? take submarines, mirages, for a few. The point is we can't base purchases based on such relationships, rather based on requirements.

All strategic aspects must be covered by ToT, home grown technology infusion, and establishing certain advantages over the enemy by such capabilities. bottom line /end of the day, is all about what you have that enemy does not have, and there is no way in the world to be envious of your neighbor purchasing the same device you bought. Better work on, what is that makes it better for your doctrine.


I believe that was in past. Since 2000, Indo-French business and strategic exposure has grown to an extent that France will give a hard thought on selling (high end) weapons to pukes. They may offer low end tech to them which Russia also gives to pukes (helo's and transport a/c). On the other hand EU countries will bask on glory of making equal equal by sharing the profit made from Typhoon weapons sales to India with pukes giving them billion $ aide in name of development and fight against terror. We clearly ought to see where our money will end up. At the moment with Typhoon, I am seeing 4X times money landing in to pak while with French bird it will be 1X portion only. Agree that ToT and offset should be the way to go atleast to claw back some money from vendor and developing local industries.
Guess will be tough decision, I hope there is no corruption involved :-? .

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby abhik » 22 May 2011 13:33

indranilroy wrote:^^^ I think it wouldn't make sense to bring this discussion up again ... at around the time I brought up this question, there was a slew of posts which tended to pitch the EF as the better A2A platform (than rafale) owing to it's bigger radar everything else on the planes being almost similar. Well, this can not be validated. If anything, the Rafale has higher kills over the EF in DACT exercises (rules not withstanding). At the moment I atleast have no way to say which amongst the 2 is a better A2A option. It will on come down to the pilot and day IMHO.

However, the Rafale will have higher range and is definitely at the time the more potent multirole fighter. This is a huge advantage. The world over the development costs always balloons by atleast a 100%. And this costs will have to be partly/fully borne by us. Also, Rafale having the smaller RCS amongst the 2 can better suit the hunter-killer scenario. This is why I spoke about Su-30s. My point is we do not need to buy a platform who biggest asset is a bigger radar. We can easily obtain that with a mix of heavy fighters which will always have a much bigger nose and power supply.

...

+1 to that. Another thing that EF supporters repeatedly bring up is that we already have an excellent A2G platform in the MKI. But how "multirole" is it really? Apart from from some soviet era munitions of which we probably have only a hand full of, what current generation smart and cost effective weapons have been integrated with it? Does it come anywhere close to what we see with any of khan's fighters in conflicts or the Refale/EF atleast in their posters?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 22 May 2011 13:47

the MKI has been integrated with the Litening LDP few years ago. so it can fire israeli LGB kit equipped bombs. these may be more expensive than american paveway kits but then nobody has made so many bombs as the paveway family to amortize cost. israeli maal will be cheaper the AASM imo. I am sure sudarshan is coming to MKI the moment it enters IOC. we also have lots of KAB/FAB series bombs. we also have a 1500kg israeli made anti personnel bomb.

for long range strike it has the KH31 and KH59 - the corresponding western weapon Scalp will surely be more expensive.

MKI will not get meteor, but the Rus would be working on the aa12 successor now that pakfa is on track.

so imo MKI is as multirole as Rafale (albeit it doesnt have something as integrated as spectra) and far more multirole than EF.

on top of it can also do buddy buddy refueling.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shiv » 22 May 2011 13:52

krishnan wrote:
NRao wrote:BTW, Germans are reducing the size of their army by 45,000 to 172,000. Data point.


Thats not reducing , thats increasing


Not at all. Let me state the same thing in a more easily understandable way

i am reducing my number of girlfriends by 4 to 6. I currently have 10 girlfriends. I am reducing by 4 to arrive at the number 6.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Juggi G » 22 May 2011 14:05

Image


Clicky
Image
Last edited by Juggi G on 22 May 2011 17:01, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby BENNY » 22 May 2011 14:18

krishnan wrote:
NRao wrote:BTW, Germans are reducing the size of their army by 45,000 to 172,000. Data point.


Thats not reducing , thats increasing


German armed forces cut by one-fifth in new shake-up

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15087066,00.html

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby abhik » 22 May 2011 19:05

Singha wrote:the MKI has been integrated with the Litening LDP few years ago. so it can fire israeli LGB kit equipped bombs.

The LDP can also be used recon, My guess is that in the current scheme of things most of our limited stock of LGBs/smart weapons are to be used by our dedicated strike aircraft the M-2000 and the Jaguar. Only very high end stuff(Brahmos, heavy duty bunker busting bombs) are left for the MKI.
we also have lots of KAB/FAB series bombs.

again soviet era and how many of those do we have?
we also have a 1500kg israeli made anti personnel bomb

I think thats the popeye (bunker busting) bomb.

What I am asking is where are the 500lb LGBs, the anti-armor missiles, the glide bombs, smart cluster bombs ? Not only do they not exist in the MKIs weapon lineup but they is seemingly no indication of any future plans to integrate these either. So what is the comparison in current effectiveness across the spectrum of A2G wrt khans aircraft and that at least claimed by the rafale and the EF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 22 May 2011 20:06

A good article about Katrina and her AASMs

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/05/in-press-latinaero-articles-about.html

Since we are showing off weapons, here is another one of Katrina;

Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RoyG » 22 May 2011 20:08

^^Good find rakesh bhai...potent!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 22 May 2011 20:10

abhik wrote:What I am asking is where are the 500lb LGBs, the anti-armor missiles, the glide bombs, smart cluster bombs?

the KAB series has 500lb bombs. I dont think they are soviet era but newer.
anti armour missiles - if you are referring to brimstone, even khan does not have it and neither does rafale. khan has the dated maverick which iirc is retired now.
glide bombs - if you are referring to folding wing range extention kits indeed the su30 has none and nobody else in IAF does either.
smart cluster bombs - we ordered a limited number from khan perhaps to be used in jaguars first.

point is all the stuff out there is expensive, nothing is cheap. and sure nothing is as multirole as the f-18 given its gigantic family of compatible khan munitions.

true multirole in our context is pushing through the astra mk1, astra mk2, sudarshan and a wing extention kit to completion and making that our bread and butter. add python6 to the mix.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 22 May 2011 20:16

RoyG wrote:^^Good find rakesh bhai...potent!

You are welcome Roy! I see Mica, AASM, Paveway, SCALP, GIAT 30/719B cannon...but can someone identify that missile (in all grey) right next to Katrina's nose wheel? What is that?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 22 May 2011 20:38

That missile is the Meteor indeed. Got it from this link;

http://www.latinaero.com/news/defence/2011_05/nws_dfc_110503-001.html

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 22 May 2011 20:52

Rakesh,

It is not the meteor but the Nuclear missile ASMP-A. It is a 5m long ramjet missile with a mach 3+ speed and a range of approximatively 500Km. It can carry various type of nuclear warheads.

The meteor is also displayed near the micas.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sum » 22 May 2011 21:10

^^ Sorry for the OT but couldnt resist after the pic of the ASMP-A:

Is there ever any pic of a IAF plane carrying a nuclear weapon or even a pic of the final IAF usable Indian nuke ( similar to the ASMP-A of the Frenchies)?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RoyG » 23 May 2011 01:55

Arthuro,

I believe Rakesh is right. The inlets are on the bottom.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 23 May 2011 02:05

indeed I thought he was referring to the first picture with weapons.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2011 02:24

abhik wrote:The LDP can also be used recon, My guess is that in the current scheme of things most of our limited stock of LGBs/smart weapons are to be used by our dedicated strike aircraft the M-2000 and the Jaguar. Only very high end stuff(Brahmos, heavy duty bunker busting bombs) are left for the MKI.


So - you haven't found out details on your own & are jumping to conclusions as well. For instance, statements like this: again soviet era and how many of those do we have? Why don't you read this thread discussion earlier before making such sweeping statements? The KAB-500 & Kh-59ME are both modern Russian weapons operationalized and exported much after the breakup of the "Soviet" era. They are both available for the MKI. Please do some looking up about the range of each, especially about the former when released at speed and at altitude. They are every bit the equal of "non Soviet" weapons for their uses.

What I am asking is where are the 500lb LGBs, the anti-armor missiles, the glide bombs, smart cluster bombs ? Not only do they not exist in the MKIs weapon lineup but they is seemingly no indication of any future plans to integrate these either. So what is the comparison in current effectiveness across the spectrum of A2G wrt khans aircraft and that at least claimed by the rafale and the EF.

How do you know there is seemingly no indication? Which LGBs does the IAF operate - take a look and are you certain they havent been integrated on the MKI?

In fact, the MKI is currently ahead of both aircraft. It has ARMs: Where are the Rafale & EF's current Kh-31P equivalents?
It has Kh-29 missiles which can be used against a variety of targets, equivalent to the US Maverick.
Coming to multirole capabilities, it has SAR pods like the ELTA which neither the Rafale or EF have for long range, all weather surveillance.

Coming to inventory, why will the IAF publicize its inventory of smart weaponry and why should we debate it publically? It is in their best interest not to release publically all the systems they have on the MKI as well. For what they have decided to share publicly, or what is known from public sources, please go through pages six and seven of this thread, looking through mine & srai's posts. Remember, it is not in the IAF's interest to publicize the inventory of smart weaponry they have procured, nor in our interest to finesse such estimates.

Your "guess" that in the current scheme of things only the dedicated strike aircraft the M-2000 and Jaguar can use "more of our limited stock" of weaponry would be wrong. Without even debating things like inventory for obvious reasons, as things stand, the Mirage 2000's are multirole, they are not dedicated strike aircraft, and they lag the MKIs in several criteria. And till the DARIN-3 upgrade, the Jaguars are nowhere comparable to the MKI for all weather strike. Even otherwise, the MKIs have the edge in range, payload and weapons combinations, eg. a combo of ARMs, PGMs, and dumb bombs plus self defense equipment for SEAD which no other aircraft in the IAF has.

If you followed MKI exercises, at Red Flag the MKIs conducted both Air to Air and Air to Ground (equipped with Litenings). They are currently our preeminent multirole aircraft.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2011 02:59

The other point is the IAF is not selling the MKI, they are not going to advertise each and every requirement they have or tom tom their needs and integration either. For instance,
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... srael.html

The Improved Fragmentation Bomb (IFB) family has been developed by Israel Military Industries (IMI) for customers with Russian-built combat aircraft who are seeking a new generation of reliable and effective freefall ordnance. The design of the IFB series closely follows the Russian FAB-100M-62, FAB-250M-62 and FAB-500M-62 bombs in size, shape and weight. This is to ensure maximum compatibility with Russian-sourced platforms, primarily MiG and Sukhoi tactical jets. As such, the IFB series is something of a departure from IMI's typical product line. The IFB design was shown in public for the first time at the 2007 Aero India show, held in February. The bomb's development is understood to have been driven largely by an Indian Air Force requirement.


Read the last line. Has it been publicized the way (say) an EF requirement would be, because it would directly affect the export prospects if another weapon was added? Who knows whether the IAF acquired the IFB or not? Why even speculate. All I can say is, the IAF usually reveals its acquisitions over time, and they are usually a surprise. And so it should be.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby srai » 23 May 2011 03:34

abhik wrote:
Singha wrote:the MKI has been integrated with the Litening LDP few years ago. so it can fire israeli LGB kit equipped bombs.

The LDP can also be used recon, My guess is that in the current scheme of things most of our limited stock of LGBs/smart weapons are to be used by our dedicated strike aircraft the M-2000 and the Jaguar. Only very high end stuff(Brahmos, heavy duty bunker busting bombs) are left for the MKI.
we also have lots of KAB/FAB series bombs.

again soviet era and how many of those do we have?
we also have a 1500kg israeli made anti personnel bomb

I think thats the popeye (bunker busting) bomb.

What I am asking is where are the 500lb LGBs, the anti-armor missiles, the glide bombs, smart cluster bombs ? Not only do they not exist in the MKIs weapon lineup but they is seemingly no indication of any future plans to integrate these either. So what is the comparison in current effectiveness across the spectrum of A2G wrt khans aircraft and that at least claimed by the rafale and the EF.



Here is a compiled list of AAMs & PGMs in the IAF's service:

Code: Select all

A list of current/planned AAMs/PGMs in IAF's inventory (1980-2010). These numbers are as reported in public domain.


IAF's Air-to-Air Missile (AAM)

Munition (weight)                      Induction    Est. Price/Unit^  Quantity    Status     Aircraft Types
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R-550 Magic-1 (89kg)                     1980           $71,280        1,000      retired    Mirage-2000, Jaguar
R-60/AA-8 Aphid (43.5kg)                 1983               ?          3,000      retiring   MiG-21bis,MiG-27M,MiG-29
Super-530D^^^ (275kg)                    1984           $256,850         200      retiring   Mirage-2000
R-73/AA-11 Archer (105kg)             1987/1995/1996        ?          4,400      active     Jaguar, Mirage-2000(?)
R-550 Magic-2^^^ (89kg)                  1988           $93,600          550      retiring   Mirage-2000, Jaguar
R-27/ER/AA-10 Alamo (253kg)             1995/1996           ?            636      active     MiG-29, Su-30MKI
RVV-AE/AA-12 Adder (175/226kg)           1999               ?          1,000      active     MiG-21Bison,MiG-29,Su-30MKI
Mistral (18.7kg)                         2006           $15,000          150      on order   Dhruv WSH, LCH
MICA (112kg)                             2010          $1.5 million      600      on order   Mirage-2000UPG
Astra (154kg)                            2015               ?             ?         R&D      LCA, Su-30MKI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Total AAM (in-service/ordered)                                  11,661 ^^



IAF's Precision Guided Munition (PGM)

Munition (weight)                      Induction    Est. Price/Unit^  Quantity      Status     Aircraft Types
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matra BGL 1000 (1,000kg bomb)              ?            $21,136         **(?)       unknown    Mirage-2000
Paveway II LGB (1,000lb GP bomb)          1993          $20,000          315        active     Mirage-2000, Jaguar
KAB-500Kr (500kg)                         1998             ?             500        active     MiG-21 Bison, Su-30MKI
Griffin 3 LGB (1,000lb GP bomb)           2005             ?         250+(~1,000*)  active     Jaguar, Mirage-2000(?)
CBU-105 WCMD (1,000lb bomb)               2010          $380,000         510        on order   Jaguar, Mirage-2000(?)
Sudarshan LGB (450kg/1,000lb GP/HSLD)     2014             ?              ?           R&D      All IAF a/c w/ Litening pod
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         Total PGM (in-service/ordered)                                2,575 ^^



IAF's Air-Surface Missile (ASM)

Munition (weight)                      Induction    Est. Price/Unit^  Quantity      Status       Aircraft Types
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sea Eagle (580kg)                         1983         $270,000        24***        retiring     Jaguar IM
Kh-23/AS-7 Kerry (287kg)                  1985            ?              250        retired(?)   MiG-27ML
Kh-25MP/MLT (315kg)                     1989/1995         ?              600        active       MiG-27ML
Kh-29 T/TE (690kg)                         ?              ?              ?          active       Su-30MKI
Kh-31A1/P/AS-17 (600kg)                   1997            ?              200        active       Su-30MKI
Kh-59ME/AS-18 Kazoo (930kg)               2010            ?              100        active       Su-30MKI
Popeye-2 Crystal Maze (3,000lb)           2001          $700,000          30        active       Mirage-2000
AGM-84 Block II Harpoon (691kg)           2010          $420,000          24        on order     Jaguar IM
Brahmos AL (2,500kg)                      2014        $2.7 million    200****(?)      R&D        Su-30MKI
"K" series Air-Launched Article (2,000kg)   ?             ?               ?           R&D        Su-30MKI
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         Total ASM (in-service/ordered)                                1,428 ^^


Notes: Most quantities from SIPRI database.

* Second order in 2009 for Griffin-3 LGB kits worth tens of millions dollars.
** Quantities not known. Estimates provided in the low side because IAF did not use it in Kargil because of it being expensive (and probably small quantity in service).
*** Although 160 Sea Eagles were ordered, IAF share is probably around 24 missiles as the new order of Harpoon indicates and also as the IAF only has 6 Jaguar IM that are capable of using these missiles.
**** Brahmos missile's total planned units is 1,000 SSM/ASM variants for all services. IAF's share is estimated to be 200 units.
^ Price quoted as in The Naval Institute guide to world naval weapons systems, 1997-1998, Paul Mulcahy’s Pages & About.com Air Force Munitions Acquisition Costs
^^^ Being replaced by MICA IR/RF.
^^ Does not account for numbers used in exercises and combat.


The IAF seems to have a preference for 1,000lb (450kg) GP/HSLD bomb for precision-strike at targets. All the LGB kits are for this size. So far, the IAF seems to not use the 250kg (or smaller) sized bombs for "precision-enabled" strike. Part of the reason may have to do with costs.
Last edited by srai on 23 May 2011 04:19, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2011 03:40

SRai, to add to your compilation, the MiG-21 Bison can also use the KAB-500 and Kh-25 ARMs. These were sold as highlights of the MiG-21 -93 upgrade (which IAF version is called the Bison). A picture of the KAB-500 may be found here:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 9.jpg.html
MiG itself mentions the KAB-500 in particular:
http://migavia.ru/eng/military_e/MiG_21_93_e.htm
Note mention of Kh-25 MP, and KAB-500 Kr
http://www.enemyforces.net/aircraft/mig21.htm

In fact, given that the IAF places (or at least used to) orders for munitions by aircraft type, actual PGM numbers may vary from public estimates from SIPRI, though like I said, not in our best interest to speculate.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VinodTK » 23 May 2011 05:18

India goes full steam to finalize $10.4bn jet deal
The aim is to ensure that deliveries of the 126 fighters begin from December 2014 onwards to stem IAF's fast-eroding combat edge. Top defence sources, in fact, said plans were afoot to base the first MMRCA squadron in the western sector, most probably at Ambala, by end-2015.

The first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition" from the aviation major -- only Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS) and French Rafale (Dassault) are now left in contention -- finally selected for the project.

Subsequent batches of the 108 fighters, to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) after transfer of technology, will progressively be based in other operationally relevant locations, with special focus on the eastern front with China.

"The first fighter built in HAL should roll out in December 2016. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end,'' said a source.

But what about the crucial AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, which is operational only on American fighters at present? MoD said the ASQRs did "not require a flying AESA radar''. Instead, vendors had to demonstrate "a baseline radar model in flight or on a test-bed, the complete working model in a lab and how it would be integrated'' on the Indian MMRCA. "Five fighters, including Rafale and Typhoon, met this requirement,'' said the source.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby k prasad » 23 May 2011 14:35

Haha... wow. I sure do have a lot to reply to, don't I. :-) Apologies for the late response, but sometimes real life does intervene.

Power post about tactics on Page 4/5 VivS.

First things first. I think a lot of posters on this forum seem to invest too much faith in some technology/weapons, to the point of thinking that they are invincible silver bullets. They aren't. Specifically, things like LPI and the Su-30MKI (especially the latter). They do have their limitations.

Even the Su-30, while a brilliant platform, we must acknowledge, was developed in 1997-2000. It is coming up for an upgrade soon enough. It is a powerful bird, but to think that it can whoop the asses of either of the two contenders (or vice versa) would be wrong. Secondly, the Russians DO have limitations in technologies, especially in things like avionics and sensor integration. Nothing to be ashamed of though. Horses for courses. Phenomenal stuff in one area, reasonably ok tech in the other.

A few notes before that though:

a) Captor-E doesn't exist yet, and the earliest timeline is only post 2015. So i'd rather not try and use that to bolster the Tiffy's superiority much. I'm sure a swashplate RBE-2EE will exist before the Captor-E swashbuckler :-).

b) The Tiffy people are more media savvy and open than the Rafale's. Doesn't mean the Kat doesn't have the goods. Wrt random goodies that one might or might not have, i'd rather not speculate, and i'd rather as much as possible make comparisons wrt concrete goods.

MarcH wrote:K prasad,

Irregardless of how much range you have (or don't have) on your radar a modern RWR will always detect you earlier than you get a useful return. LPI get's better, as do RWR's. In the end, you've got just a less powerful radar. There is nothing positive about it. Even the Raptor has a very powerful radar, and it has way better stealth than Rafale. Because if you have to activate it, you want as much power as possible. And btw a bigger antenna is more subtle than a smaller one. Simply because you need less power output to get a useful return.

Further more, typical targets tend to become more difficult to detect, too. While you may detect a 5 sqm fighter at 150km, a stealthy cruise missile will be detectable at considerably less range. And all those passive detection stuff is useless in that very situation. A cruise missiles doesn't emit radar signals. Plus the French diva doesn't even have an IRST at the moment. So much for the superior passive detection qualities.

In the end it boils down to always the same conclusion. Rafale is better at deep strike missions. (Where I would raise doubts about it's stealthines thanks to tons of external stores)

Tiffy is better at airdefense. Radar, Pirate, climb rate, supersonic performance, two way datalink for Meteor, Striker + supermanouverable WVR missles, Libelle... you name it. Only true selling point for Rafale is in my opinion SPECTRA. Transplanting it into a true 5th gen airframe (e.g. AMCA) is a quite mouth watering idea. Remains to be seen if Thales would be willing to share the crown jeweles.
*shrug*


Sigh. Here goes.

a) Rafale DOES have an IRST - google for OSF please. This should start you off - http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... afale.html . Note that they wouldn't remove an IR channel without having an equally effective alternative.

b) F-22 has stealth for so many reasons. Apart from the VLO aspect itself, the APG-77 is a revolutionary radar. So yes, that is probably the ideal of LPI we want to have, and the ideal of LPI that people have been talking about. But no other radars are there yet. Or even close. And even the APG-77 mgiht be vulnerable for all we know. By the time other radars reach that level, the ESM and avionics would also have caught up

c) A powerful radar isnt just because it puts out more watts. If you can have a more sensitive receiver, you won't need to. Radar power is a function of so many things. Which is why they don't give you the output power, and let you calculate the range from it. They tell you the range for typical targets, because its not a simple 1-to-1 relation between the power and range. Other factors do play a role. Second, even stray emissions are a danger. Third, a less powerful radar doesn't mean a less lethal system, which is what i've been trying to state.

d) You are right about the bigger collector aperture of course. The question is, by how much.

SaiK wrote:1. "If I can see you, I am aware you are there. and I hope I can reach to hit you" [radar+weapons].

2. If you can't see me, and I am still aware you are there [given the range scope of weapons], and I get to hit you.

I guess the 2 takes over 1, in any operational sense.

Range is important in one sense, where all this works say 100km range, where I have both radar and weapons to deliver. Now if that can be increased, it would be great to have.

I agree, it is useless illumination and worries if scanning emits can be tracked by enemies. Now, if that can done without them knowing it [scan and track mode, special frequency at which we operate, or some other technique by which we can track], then it is unnecessary over weight of t/r modules on the nose. OTOH, if the range increase comes with additional benefit such that it satisfies case 2 above, then it is wonderful.

Currently, I don't see any long ranged AAMs that is greater than 200km.


It would, if the "I can hit you" could happen soon after the "I can see you", then 2. would be great. But it isnt so. Statement 2 is a misnomer, considering that radar emissions go out much farther than they are received back. Which means ideally, someone can sense your emissions much before you even detect them.

I think on this forum, a lot of people are bought over by technologies into thinking they are invincible, or the be-all-and -end-all. In most cases, they aren't. They might confer advantages, but not invincibility. LPI is no silver bullet as of now. Its a red queen race. Let us not make the mistake of thinking that Low Probability of Intercept means No Probability of Intercept. It doesn't. Every bit of emissions jeopardizes the stealth of the mission. Hell, thats why radio silence is maintained, even though they can use short range radio.

What I'm trying to make clear here is the need for a compromise re. awareness and stealth. Is it a disadvantage? Of course it is. Is it suboptimal? I don't think so.

Take an eg of a SEAD operation inside enemy airspace. Obviously the first aim is mission success. Followed by survival. If the mission is detected and has to scamper back, that's it. The enemy will be vigilant, and we would've lost our chance to destroy their SAMs and radars. I don't need to explain what would happen then. As the commander of that theater, I would rather lose 3-4 aircraft so as to ensure control of that airspace rather than have those aircraft survive and not have control, and worse, alert the enemy to my plans.

Note that when we're inside enemy territory, he has waaay more eyes than us. What then happens is that the moment there is even a semblance of emission picked up, even a faint signal received by an RWR, they would be extremely alert. they don't even need to confirm it. The enemy will then switch on his own radars on wideband, and flood the area, exposing the bandits. mission finito. no success, even if the bandits can successfully egress.

Its like trying to infiltrate a fort to open the gate. If we switch on our torch, chances are, someone might see something, and switch on their searchlights and find our assault party. That forever closes that gate to us. The best bet is to stay in the dark, sneak up on the guards and shoot them and open the gate.

With re RCS, a larger aparture array does have a larger RCS. Since the nose radome of an aircraft is RF permeable, the array, being what it is (an excellent collector and reflector of RF energy), acts like a cat's eyes for any emissions. Hence the canted arrays that we see nowadays. Even that doesn't guarantee no returns. Thus, a smaller array. (This is me putting on the Dassault cap).

Which means that if the same or equivalent SYSTEM (not radar, but the complete platform) effectiveness were achievable, a smaller array might be preferred, or a slightly less capable radar could be tolerated. Lets also remember that array size is only one aspect of radar performance - processing, operation, array sensitivity, power density, beam agility and versatility, spectrum, interleaved modes, all of these add up and are important to radar performance.

Assuming that all these are equal on both platforms, given the smaller nose, Kat will always have a slightly less powerful radar. How much less is one question, and I believe that it would not be cripplingly lower. If the system in totality helps us achieve a greater mission success rate, which is what the Rafale designers have sought to do, then so much the better. A small sacrifice at the micro level which gives greater returns at the macro level is desirable. The question now stands about whether the Rafale has achieved that. Do I say it has? No, I don't. Do I think it has achieved it. I'm leaning towards saying yes.

At the end, we would all (me included), like a bigger radar aperture on the Rafale. The big questions though, are:

a) If a bigger array isnt possible, how much does it degrade the Rafale's advantage vis-a-vis the Tiffy.

b) How much would the bigger array influence or affect the Rafales performance, for good or bad? A bigger radar might give x % more range, but would also make the rafale y % more susceptible to detection. The larger nose would also lead to z% change in airframe performance. Does the x improvement justify y and z costs? With the interactions between x, y, z and others lead to a better killing machine or a worse one?

These are answers that no one here might be equipped enough to answer. But the French and the IAF eval team would certainly be able to. Do we trust the former to have found the most optimal solution, and the latter to have made the best judgement on this? I'd certainly say yes.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chetak » 23 May 2011 14:55

ashish raval wrote:
^do you know France is notorious in supplies to pakistan after a successful sale to India? take submarines, mirages, for a few. The point is we can't base purchases based on such relationships, rather based on requirements.

All strategic aspects must be covered by ToT, home grown technology infusion, and establishing certain advantages over the enemy by such capabilities. bottom line /end of the day, is all about what you have that enemy does not have, and there is no way in the world to be envious of your neighbor purchasing the same device you bought. Better work on, what is that makes it better for your doctrine.


I believe that was in past. Since 2000, Indo-French business and strategic exposure has grown to an extent that France will give a hard thought on selling (high end) weapons to pukes. They may offer low end tech to them which Russia also gives to pukes (helo's and transport a/c). On the other hand EU countries will bask on glory of making equal equal by sharing the profit made from Typhoon weapons sales to India with pukes giving them billion $ aide in name of development and fight against terror. We clearly ought to see where our money will end up. At the moment with Typhoon, I am seeing 4X times money landing in to pak while with French bird it will be 1X portion only. Agree that ToT and offset should be the way to go atleast to claw back some money from vendor and developing local industries.
Guess will be tough decision, I hope there is no corruption involved :-? .


Like the godfather said, "nothing personal, it's purely business"

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nrshah » 23 May 2011 15:09

To add to radar tussle, my POV is that decision will not be tilted because of one component called radar. Had that been the case teens would have made a cut. Decision will be based on the platform as a whole.

Besides, the deals are to be assesed on staff requirements. I distinctly remember radar requirement being 130 kms for 5 sq m. The same was quoted by UAC to compare the performance of Mig 35 radar. If Rafale is able to achieve that figure, dont have any reason for asking 200 Kms (assuming tiffy with larger nose housing more T/x modules will achieve) and sacrificing the long legged (Payload greater than MKI / More wet points than tiffy), more versatile (Versatile here means Omni role + Naval option; I understand tiffy will also be multirole some day and hence have used the word versatile); ready to fire Rafale.

Besides one more point we tend to ignore is MMRCA is to address declining fleet. Hence there will be no/least MKIsation of it. The more mature the product is, the better. Ofcourse, Tiffy will get multirole and AESA by 2015, but that is an estimate. Can't decline delays and unfortunately, IAF does not seem to have time for that.

In the hindsight, it looks IAF does not subsribe to idea promoted by LM and Unkil that let the missile do maneuver.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nrshah » 23 May 2011 15:09

To add to radar tussle, my POV is that decision will not be tilted because of one component called radar. Had that been the case teens would have made a cut. Decision will be based on the platform as a whole.

Besides, the deals are to be assesed on staff requirements. I distinctly remember radar requirement being 130 kms for 5 sq m. The same was quoted by UAC to compare the performance of Mig 35 radar. If Rafale is able to achieve that figure, dont have any reason for asking 200 Kms (assuming tiffy with larger nose housing more T/x modules will achieve) and sacrificing the long legged (Payload greater than MKI / More wet points than tiffy), more versatile (Versatile here means Omni role + Naval option; I understand tiffy will also be multirole some day and hence have used the word versatile); ready to fire Rafale.

Besides one more point we tend to ignore is MMRCA is to address declining fleet. Hence there will be no/least MKIsation of it. The more mature the product is, the better. Ofcourse, Tiffy will get multirole and AESA by 2015, but that is an estimate. Can't decline delays and unfortunately, IAF does not seem to have time for that.

In the hindsight, it looks IAF does not subsribe to idea promoted by LM and Unkil that let the missile do maneuver.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 23 May 2011 18:44

arthuro wrote:indeed I thought he was referring to the first picture with weapons.

Damn, the ASMP-A looks sleek and sexy! Beautiful pictures Arthuro. I also liked the cockpit picture of the Rafale which you posted earlier. Well explained.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 23 May 2011 19:26

k prasad, so more radiation collectors (receivers spread all over 360*) on the a/c, that much lesser would be the exposure? so increasing passive sensor area could increase stealth. permeable skins should be aerodynamic composites while inner larger array collectors could focus on swallowing emissions?

:idea: /ot

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby k prasad » 23 May 2011 19:43

SaiK wrote:k prasad, so more radiation collectors (receivers spread all over 360*) on the a/c, that much lesser would be the exposure? so increasing passive sensor area could increase stealth. permeable skins should be aerodynamic composites while inner larger array collectors could focus on swallowing emissions?

:idea: /ot


Haha SaiK. Not a bad idea at all, something which I believe is something being worked on right now. IRSI had a few talks about such future developments of sensor arrays, and conformal passive sensors and detectors got a lot of talktime.

However, as I mentioned, these would have their own problems. The main problem with conformal arrays is analyzing and developing them. Sadly, its much more difficult than a simple paint on job. Plus, the maintenance would be a bitch. Which is why you don't even see arrays that are in shapes other than planar. Even simple curved surfaces like spheres or cylinders are too difficult to do. So loads of work to do there. Plus, putting phased array sensors on a

The main reason for the small range of secondary passive detectors (apart from the main radar as a passive sensor) is the small apertures. If these receiver collectors become larger, so much the better for sensitivity. The permeable skins is a good idea :-). IIRC, at AeroSem, Subramanyam (LCA PD) had mentioned inboard signature reduction as an area of work, since composites are permeable to RF. Putting a passive receiver array behind that might just be a good idea :-D.

Haha... we BRFites should start our own Defence Tech firm :-)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 23 May 2011 19:46

KP, you have mail.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby k prasad » 23 May 2011 19:55

Received Sirjee.... I'll get to work on it :-).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 23 May 2011 21:48

k prasad wrote:
Sigh. Here goes.

a) Rafale DOES have an IRST - google for OSF please. This should start you off - http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... afale.html . Note that they wouldn't remove an IR channel without having an equally effective alternative.

You may want to read up on this. Current OSF has NO IRST. Production of the IR channel has stopped after 48 examples because of obsolescenses. Replacement system yet to be developed.

b) F-22 has stealth for so many reasons. Apart from the VLO aspect itself, the APG-77 is a revolutionary radar. So yes, that is probably the ideal of LPI we want to have, and the ideal of LPI that people have been talking about. But no other radars are there yet. Or even close. And even the APG-77 mgiht be vulnerable for all we know. By the time other radars reach that level, the ESM and avionics would also have caught up

c) A powerful radar isnt just because it puts out more watts. If you can have a more sensitive receiver, you won't need to. Radar power is a function of so many things. Which is why they don't give you the output power, and let you calculate the range from it. They tell you the range for typical targets, because its not a simple 1-to-1 relation between the power and range. Other factors do play a role. Second, even stray emissions are a danger. Third, a less powerful radar doesn't mean a less lethal system, which is what i've been trying to state.

It just means less flexiblity. The British are dead serious about the electronic attack mode of the Captor E, a capability so far not projected for Rafale. And since both AESA antennas are based on the same modules from UMS I see no reason why the 40% larger Captor shouldn't keep it's performance advantage.

d) You are right about the bigger collector aperture of course. The question is, by how much.

Well, both aircraft follow different philosophies. So far I can't decide which one I would pick. Sometimes I just get the impression people dismiss the Tiffy way too quick, and not based on technical merits.



answers in blue

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2011 21:55

March, are the British serious about integrating ALARM onto the Typhoon or are they just counting on the EA capability? Its not going to work against radars in different bands.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Henrik » 23 May 2011 22:57

MarcH wrote:
k prasad wrote:
Sigh. Here goes.

a) Rafale DOES have an IRST - google for OSF please. This should start you off - http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... afale.html . Note that they wouldn't remove an IR channel without having an equally effective alternative.

You may want to read up on this. Current OSF has NO IRST. Production of the IR channel has stopped after 48 examples because of obsolescenses. Replacement system yet to be developed.

b) F-22 has stealth for so many reasons. Apart from the VLO aspect itself, the APG-77 is a revolutionary radar. So yes, that is probably the ideal of LPI we want to have, and the ideal of LPI that people have been talking about. But no other radars are there yet. Or even close. And even the APG-77 mgiht be vulnerable for all we know. By the time other radars reach that level, the ESM and avionics would also have caught up

c) A powerful radar isnt just because it puts out more watts. If you can have a more sensitive receiver, you won't need to. Radar power is a function of so many things. Which is why they don't give you the output power, and let you calculate the range from it. They tell you the range for typical targets, because its not a simple 1-to-1 relation between the power and range. Other factors do play a role. Second, even stray emissions are a danger. Third, a less powerful radar doesn't mean a less lethal system, which is what i've been trying to state.

It just means less flexiblity. The British are dead serious about the electronic attack mode of the Captor E, a capability so far not projected for Rafale. And since both AESA antennas are based on the same modules from UMS I see no reason why the 40% larger Captor shouldn't keep it's performance advantage.

d) You are right about the bigger collector aperture of course. The question is, by how much.

Well, both aircraft follow different philosophies. So far I can't decide which one I would pick. Sometimes I just get the impression people dismiss the Tiffy way too quick, and not based on technical merits.



answers in blue

But isn't the IRST and OSF on Rafale two seperate "things"? I mean the OSF (square thingy) does tracking long range with a laser range finder but only in visible light spectrum, while the IRST (bubble) does the tracking shorter range but in IR? Or have I completely misunderstood everything?


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