India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 02:02

rajanb wrote:Rakeshji, cannot open this site.

Sorry for the delay Saar...here you go....enjoy! Please note that there are grammatical errors due to the bablefish transalation. Use your imagination, but not too much :) Thanks.

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How the Rafale and Eurofighter allured the Indians
On May 25, 2011 by Guillaume Lecompte-Boinet

The Indian invitation to tender for the purchase of 126 fighters entered a new phase. Baptized L 1 by the Indian ministry of Defense, this competition finally opposes the Rafale of Dassault to Eurofighter of the EADS-BAE-Finmeccanica trio. Return on the conditions of a very tight duel.

In face to face Rafale-Eurofighter, it is not any more question from now on of tests in vol. the airframe manufacturers of the two hunters will polish their commercial proposition and their offers as regards technology transfers.

The Indians are given a few months to slice, and give their decision from here - theoretically - March 2012. Theoretically, because all the specialists in India know that in this country, time does not have the same value as in Occident. Certain invitations to tender lasted several years, even of the decades before a contract in due form is signed.

This is why French and German were surprised relative speed with which official Indians finally the Rafale and Eurofighter-Typhoon, represented by EADS Germany selected. Between the launching of the invitation to tender at the end of 2007, and this decision, it hardly ran out four years.

This time, which can appear long, is rather normal when six should be tested have very different: in addition to the Rafale and Eurofighter-Typhoon, there were the F/A-18 of Boeing, the F-16 of Lookheed Martin, Gripen of Swedish Saab and the MIG-35 Russian.

The evaluations in flight, which took place during spring and of the summer 2010, lasted more than one month for each plane in string. Each one passed to the tail-leu-leu, the F/A 18, then the F-16, Gripen, the Rafale, Typhoon and finally the Mig one.

The Indian pilots were not unemployed! All the configurations were tested: flight with very high-altitude, low altitude, in desert medium, emergency landing, stopping and restarting of the engines.

In the same way, the Indians drew from the armaments, missiles and gun. They became to the fine comb the capacities of deployment of the planes with their teams of maintenance and the mechanics, with for example, a timing of times of charge-discharge of the engines.

Any cancellation of a flight for technical reasons - and that can arrive in this kind of evaluation - was taken into account. According to certain sources, the Rafale and Typhoon would have marked invaluable points on this type of criteria. “Potential customers do not want only one fighter plan super-powerful, he wants also a machine reliable and whose cost of implementation is reasonable over at least 30 years”, an expert indicates.


The planes in string were also confronted with the Indian MiGs in simulations of aerial combats. And so that all that is possible, the Indian pilots had to go in each country concerned to be formed, on simulators and in real flight. Dassault accomodated them on its site of Istres at the beginning of 2009, that is to say more than one year before the evaluations themselves. A true marathon!

But another will start since 2012. Indeed, gaining it of the competition will have a very tight timing to deliver the first plane since the Indians indicated to want it for 2014. However in general, one needs at least three years and half to develop the first specimen of a hunter bought by a foreign country.

Reason: there are always complementary developments claimed by the country customer, relating in particular to the embarked systems. One did not finish hearing of this competition.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 03 Jun 2011 09:31

Thanks Rakeshji.

This also substantiates a point that an old buddy who is my favourite chaiwallah told me that the IAF really put all the a/c through some "punishing" tests.

Cheers

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jun 2011 12:06

^^^That is some serious evaluation...I guess, the amirkhan companies thought that they'll razzle and dazzle IAF like they do to the sheikhdoms in ME and that Indians would just be grateful for the wares uncle was throwing at us (like beggars to the west).........surprise, surprise.....if nothing, the participation and attitude of IAF in various western exercises should have taught the americans what to expect from a thoroughly professional airforce.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Jun 2011 12:25

He quoted 3.5 years for Indian demands to be included. It may follow the SU-30 procurement. A handful lot for training etc. As newer ones arrive, the handful lot will be sent back for upgrades or exchange.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Lalmohan » 03 Jun 2011 15:23

so there is a cadre of senior pilots/test pilots and engineers who are now very familiar with all the aircraft in the competition, including detailed combat and performance parameters

useful knowledge...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratik_S » 03 Jun 2011 18:13

Decoding India's MMRCA decision- Ashley J. Telli
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/ ... cision.pdf

Haven't read it full yet but the article is biased towards American "cause" (as usual). But good info on the cause of rejection and IAF mindset.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 18:58

^^^Pratik Saar: You pre-empted me! :) I just finished reading that link. Makes for very interesting reading as to why the F/A-18 and F-16 were eliminated. A must read for all Rakshaks. Remember ramana had predicted that the IAF is primarily looking for an air superiority fighter, with an important (but secondary) strike role. Going by the yardstick in the above article, Typhoon will this competition. Muppala was right after all! I would be surprised if Katrina made it. The IAF is obsessed with WVR combat regardless of all the BVR missiles we have.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratik_S » 03 Jun 2011 19:06

The article basically blames the IAF for not putting premium on stuff the Americans fighters are good at and not considering the monetary aspect (Flyaway cost). Mr. Ashley has failed to understand that if Premium was given to the sensors and electronics to the Americans even still the result would have been the same given the fact the Eurofighter and Rafael are equally good. He also failed to understand that the armed forces in India don't look into the money matters. He also said the Rafael and Eurofighter are not as good as the Super Hornet in strike role which in case of Rafael is hard to believe(He also proclaimed that this will come to haunt the IAF in future). He also said that IAF has been partial towards the SH by considering the future AESA's of europe(no proof given whatsoever) and not considering the GE's EPE program for GE-414. He also said that IAF is dumb as it gave preference to flight envelope of aircraft rather than its war fighting capability. By considering this statement the MiG-35 also should have been selected because nothing flies better than it. All in all its just a waste of 30 mins reading it.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 19:10

PratikS: I have to disagree with you on the sensors bit. Nobody - absolutely no one - can catch up to the Americans in AESA technology. They hold all the aces. By the time the Euros (Dassault and EADS) catch up to the full-spec capability of Raytheon's APG-79 AESA, the latter will already be FAR ahead.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratik_S » 03 Jun 2011 19:16

Rakesh wrote:^^^Pratik Saar: You pre-empted me! :) I just finished reading that link. Makes for very interesting reading as to why the F/A-18 and F-16 were eliminated. A must read for all Rakshaks. Remember ramana had predicted that the IAF is primarily looking for an air superiority fighter, with an important (but secondary) strike role. Going by the yardstick in the above article, Typhoon will this competition. Muppala was right after all! I would be surprised if Katrina made it. The IAF is obsessed with WVR combat regardless of all the BVR missiles we have.


I am not really sure of that, the article was pretty much written in a way to give a feeling that IAF is nuts and is only looking at the flight performance which the biggest factor in which the American fighters lag (surprisingly even the F-16). The ASQR kept a reasonable baseline of 9G's and 16 degrees turn rate in flight performance requirements which is not very high bar which almost every modern fighters should be able to reach. Its the problem of America that their fighters can't do basic stuff. Also if sensors and off-bore sight are soooo important (I am not saying they aren't) than why the hell these American birds get their @$$ kicked in almost every exercises including in the hands of Typhoon and Rafael. He is trying to pass the buck on IAF and hiding the fact that US birds aren't good enough, at least for India.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 19:17

Pratik_S wrote:Decoding India's MMRCA decision- Ashley J. Telli
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/ ... cision.pdf


Quote from the above link...interesting view point....

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the Eurofighter and the F/A-18E/F were equal in all other respects save sustained turn rate, with the former demonstrating 16.2 degrees against the latter's 15 degrees at 5,000 feet. By this measurement, the Eurofighter is clearly the tighter turning aircraft and, thus, more manoeuvrable. Therefore, by technical standards alone — the only criterion encoded in the first step in India’s procurement procedure — it would be the desired airplane.

A more effective procurement procedure, however, would require the IAF to assess two other important questions before it conclusively rejected the F/A-18E/F as a competitor. First, do the assessed differences in turn rate have any operational significance on the battlefield? And, second, how are the assessed differences in turn rate to be valued relative to the costs of the two aircraft? Since the Eurofighter costs somewhere in the region of USD $125 million per copy against the F/A-18E/F’s cost of USD $60 million apiece, the questions then boils down to whether the Eurofighter’s 1.2 degree superiority in sustained turn rate is worth the additional USD $65 million that the IAF must commit to its acquisition?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratik_S » 03 Jun 2011 19:21

Rakesh wrote:PratikS: I have to disagree with you on the sensors bit. Nobody - absolutely no one - can catch up to the Americans in AESA technology. They hold all the aces. By the time the Euros (Dassault and EADS) catch up to the full-spec capability of Raytheon's APG-79 AESA, the latter will already be FAR ahead.


Yes, I will agree with that. But the French seem to be getting close. But than again they are (US) offering us the watered down version with lot of strings attached. Atleast the Europeans have promised us the full stuff with "less" strings attached. Again there is more to the words sensors and electronics than just radar.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 19:29

Pratik_S wrote:I am not really sure of that, the article was pretty much written in a way to give a feeling that IAF is nuts and is only looking at the flight performance which the biggest factor in which the American fighters lag (surprisingly even the F-16). The ASQR kept a reasonable baseline of 9G's and 16 degrees turn rate in flight performance requirements which is not very high bar which almost every modern fighters should be able to reach. Its the problem of America that their fighters can't do basic stuff. Also if sensors and off-bore sight are soooo important (I am not saying they aren't) than why the hell these American birds get their @$$ kicked in almost every exercises including in the hands of Typhoon and Rafael. He is trying to pass the buck on IAF and hiding the fact that US birds aren't good enough, at least for India.

Boss don't underestimate - even for a minute - the capabilities of the US spec F/A-18 Super Hornet. Yes it may not be manouverable when compared to the Eurofighter, but her sensors and BVR missiles will largely negate that. Add the US spec Growler into the mix and the advantage for the Super Hornet will be even greater. Even US Navy pilots have stated that the aircraft's sensors are powerful enough to destroy enemy aircraft well before they meet for WVR combat. It is all about adopting tactics with the technology you have.

You will have to get into the specifics of all those exercises you mention of Americans losing against the Typhoon and Rafale. Secondly, please remember EADS and Dassault are in marketing mode and beating the Americans in exercises is a good thing for sales. In the BVR sphere, the game will change and the US spec APG-79 AESA is a game changer. Just like Indian pilots are instructed not to go to full power of their classified BARS radar in multi-national exercises, the same is true for the American pilots as well in exercises against the Typhoon and Rafale. You have to keep a few aces up your sleeve.

Pratik_S wrote:Yes, I will agree with that. But the French seem to be getting close. But than again they are (US) offering us the watered down version with lot of strings attached. Atleast the Europeans have promised us the full stuff with "less" strings attached. Again there is more to the words sensors and electronics than just radar.

What parameters are you using to judge that the French are getting close? AESA technology is classified and what you read in brochures are the advertised ranges, but not the actual range. I agree with you on the water downed version with lot of strings attached bit. For me the latter (strings attached) was the real worry.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratik_S » 03 Jun 2011 19:40

He made at point with that but I will argue that
#Yes, its not worth paying $65 million more for just 1.2 degrees but than again its not the only factor at which t$he SH has failed. A 7.5G capability is far less than 9G which means it will a lot poorer in almost all maneuvers when compared with the Typhoon or even the Rafael.
#The Rafael and Tyhoon meet more requirement and come with less interference and more technology transfer.
#We will actually get to use them in all situation unlike in case of SH where US's permission will be needed.
#All in all, if paying $65 million more gets us a fighter which meets our needs (set by IAF who obviously know more than Mr. Tellis) without compromising our fighting capability than I say its money well spent (The difference is reduced to 25 million in case of Rafael, but he choose to ignore it in his rather very long analysis)

I also failed to understand how choosing a less technologically advance fighter (according to him) would not expand India's technological knowledge ?? Is US giving us its "superior" tech in form of ToT ??? I think not.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nachiket » 03 Jun 2011 19:50

^^
Ashley Tellis isn't aware of the IAF's evaluation procedure any more than we are. He is pulling data points and arguments out of his musharraf to show how amirkhan aircraft are soup-e-rear onlee and how dumb SDRE's missed the trick by not selecting them. This isn't the first time he has wriiten such a ridiculous article either. All in all, the MRCA rejection has caused a bigger echandee loss than you'd imagine it seems.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 19:55

Pratik_S wrote:He made at point with that but I will argue that
#Yes, its not worth paying $65 million more for just 1.2 degrees but than again its not the only factor at which t$he SH has failed. A 7.5G capability is far less than 9G which means it will a lot poorer in almost all maneuvers when compared with the Typhoon or even the Rafael.

An issue that Ashley Saar states will be negated with the Super Hornet's sensors. However the US spec was NOT on offer, but rather a SH-lite. Some argue that even the sensors of the SH-lite was superior to anything else the other vendors had on offer. If that is true, just imagine how far America is in AESA technology. We are SDREs...we will have to live with the poor man's version of AESA...we are like this onlee :) No need for takleef.

Pratik_S wrote:#The Rafael and Tyhoon meet more requirement and come with less interference and more technology transfer.

Agree with you there, but they believe the interference is a good thing to ensure their technology does not fall into the wrong hands.

Pratik_S wrote:#We will actually get to use them in all situation unlike in case of SH where US's permission will be needed.

An issue that some have argued will not be there. But highly doubt that, judging by past experience.

Pratik_S wrote:I also failed to understand how choosing a less technologically advance fighter (according to him) would not expand India's technological knowledge? Is US giving us its "superior" tech in form of ToT ??? I think not.

One IAF officer put it best - after the MMRCA downselect --> "If they wanted to win, they should have offered the F-35." End of story :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratik_S » 03 Jun 2011 20:01

I agree with you that the SH is good in BVR ranges but so are Typhoon are Rafael. Yes, ok may be not as good the SH but they are not hopeless. Also you cannot totally claim that WVR dogfights will not happen, incase of India WVR engagements look more likely than BVR.(But lets not go into it). I won't believe what US navy pilots says, they will always say good stuff on record. Eurobirds beating American legacies might be good for marketing but than again NATO performs these exercises in a manner which is as realistic as possible. Also using the radar at lower capacity should not drastically affect the WVR performance.

A friend working at HAL said to me that if anyone who could catch up with Americans are French. Also I meant that France is very close to fielding a AESA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Jun 2011 20:05

@Rakesh^^^:

"Super Hornet's sensors. However the US spec was NOT on offer, but rather a SH-lite. " Any open source corroboration? I'd be interested.

"If they wanted to win, they should have offered the F-35." End of story"

http://www.google.com/search?q=lockheed ... 80&bih=841

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 20:09

Pratik_S wrote:I agree with you that the SH is good in BVR ranges but so are Typhoon are Rafael. Yes, ok may be not as good the SH but they are not hopeless.

The "not as good" makes all the difference in air combat :) Then again, our enemy is not America.

Pratik_S wrote:Also you cannot totally claim that WVR dogfights will not happen, incase of India WVR engagements look more likely than BVR. (But lets not go into it).

In an Indo-Pak air war, I believe, there will be more WVR combat than BVR combat. Don't get me wrong, for India...the downselect is perfect. Alas, Ashley Saar does not see it that way.

Then again, that is not India's problem :)

Pratik_S wrote:A friend working at HAL said to me that if anyone who could catch up with Americans are French. Also I meant that France is very close to fielding a AESA.

With all due respect to your friend at HAL, he does not work at Raytheon :) Don't get me wrong Pratik...the Euro AESAs will be more than sufficient for our needs. But to catch up with the Americans in AESA technology is not as easy as you think. What are you going to measure it against, when the best of AESA technology is classified? There is no benchmark available out in the open.

America has been working on AESA, long before the Euros could even put those four alphabets together.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2011 20:10

US has grown a bit fat and complacent in the a2a regime
- most of the time they never have to fight a2a because a barrage of SEAD/SLCM destroys the AD system
- on the rare occasions they have solid E3 support , good radar and a good amraam
- on those rare occasions the enemy does not have good planes like su27/su30/rafale/ef

its become a strike oriented game - take any airframe, load it up with sensors, hang bombs off every piece of real estate and off it goes - the F16 has morphed from a agile, superb day interceptor to a obese, flabby , all-weather long range striker. the F18 has morphed from a 150km radius air defence cum strike into a huge beast, oriented to strike with poor performance vs the eurocanards, the F15C of old, the best a2a bird they had, has been retired and replaced with the heavy F15E, bombs and missiles hanging off every hook and pylon they can plug in, right upto the tailpipe.

other than the f22, it would be fair to say the USAF no longer has any proper a2a bird. the JSF is not going to be it.

they can get away with it, due to huge unit nos, solid E3 and EW support, 2nd class enemies .... we cannot get away with any of such superior attitude vs china or even pakistan. we have to be very good at air to air to survive and give our strike birds a chance. we do not have 100s of cruise missiles to rain on anyone.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratik_S » 03 Jun 2011 20:13

@ Rakesh Saab
#Nobody knows that. You said that US will keep things up its selves even in case of its allies than considering this fact they should offer us even lower specs. Still than they are losing in ex's. I really doubt water-downed SH is as good as Typhoon and Rafael.

#Tech falling in wrong hands isnt a problem. India has a good record with it.

# F-35 would have never fulfilled our timeline. This also points out that the IAF officer considers US birds inferiors to the Eurobird.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 20:13

Cosmo_R wrote:Any open source corroboration? I'd be interested.

Cosmo, I am bit confused with your post. Are you asking for open sources corroboration that a SH-lite was on offer? Also the link you posted....what is that for?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2011 20:22

Pratik_S wrote:#Nobody knows that. You said that US will keep things up its selves even in case of its allies than considering this fact they should offer us even lower specs. Still than they are losing in ex's. I really doubt water-downed SH is as good as Typhoon and Rafael.

You are right Pratik. Whether that was just an American marketing ploy or if it was the real deal, we will never know. But in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is the king :)

Singha wrote:they can get away with it, due to huge unit nos, solid E3 and EW support, 2nd class enemies .... we cannot get away with any of such superior attitude vs china or even pakistan. we have to be very good at air to air to survive and give our strike birds a chance. we do not have 100s of cruise missiles to rain on anyone.

Singha hit the nail on the head - like always. This contest was all about air to air.

Open the champagne bottles - Shatru is coming :lol: Barfi production has commenced...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby devesh » 03 Jun 2011 20:42

^^^

imvho, that Tellis article is good for the technical coverage of MMRCA competition. rest everything like his assessment of Indian politics, India's trust on US, etc etc is his own spin based on US perspective. we need not worry about or borrow those ideas. the first 3.5 pages that cover the technical grounds and aspects seem to be very well researched. the last 1.5-2 pages is not completely but almost half way Lahori logic.

on a side note, I thought Tellis was TFTA. but instead he is SDRE....anybody know his views on other aspects of India beyond US military sales? if yes, should post in relevant thread...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Lalmohan » 03 Jun 2011 20:46

tellis book on india's nuclear weapons programme is a must read

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 03 Jun 2011 20:49

I thought we moved away from shatru to sonakshi. mmm...I am seeing some game changing here :twisted: .

On the AESA front, only the home grown one can give you all the best we are asking for, and none including kat's mom or sona's dad would provide us the needed support for our advanced thinking array use, that actually infuses with IAF doctrine and missions. So, let us see who gives us more here.

Chippanda A-A need to be compared if we are thinking only about air superiority., assuming a stealth bhandar in making that is supposed to be Jumping 20 years ahead, with all flashing one can see.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Jun 2011 20:56

Rakesh wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Any open source corroboration? I'd be interested.

Cosmo, I am bit confused with your post. Are you asking for open sources corroboration that a SH-lite was on offer? Also the link you posted....what is that for?

Yes. All during the run up, Jeff Kohler and & Co were talking SH-Block II + EPE Engine etc. So, I'd be curious to know if that was not the case from an open/independent source. It's true, then it's clear why they lost.

The link is simply a google search for 'Lockheed Martin offers f-35 to India'. They actually did and even offered to do a trade-in for the F-16IN to bridge the gap in the time line.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby svinayak » 03 Jun 2011 22:12

Rakesh wrote:PratikS: I have to disagree with you on the sensors bit. Nobody - absolutely no one - can catch up to the Americans in AESA technology. They hold all the aces. By the time the Euros (Dassault and EADS) catch up to the full-spec capability of Raytheon's APG-79 AESA, the latter will already be FAR ahead.

Pratik_S wrote: Yes, I will agree with that. But the French seem to be getting close. But than again they are (US) offering us the watered down version with lot of strings attached. Atleast the Europeans have promised us the full stuff with "less" strings attached. Again there is more to the words sensors and electronics than just radar.

US will never share the latest with any other country. Hence the total input inside India will be less than what India can get out of TOT from the others even though they may not be the most advanced. This is a primary criteria at the current level of Indian tech knowhow.

Admin Note: Please be careful when you use the "quote" feature. I have edited your post, as the first paragraph is from Rakesh, while the second one is from PratikS. Your post had merged both quotes as if it came from one individual.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2011 22:18

EFFECTIVENESS in bvr is not just about the radar and missile, but also about raw speed , climb rate, acceleration from patrol speed to launch speed. the EF/Rafale do all three better than the SH, esp the acceleration and climb rate part I would think. they will get a longer stick than amraam in the meteor (EF has amraam too). higher and faster the launch the better the missile pk.thats why EF pilots brag about "sitting higher and faster" when doing DACT with more sdre types.

that leaves the supposed advantages of the bhookha nanga monkey model APG79 vs the captorE/rbe2ee both of which are allegedly being offered in full spec and with stuff like option to modify 'id codes' of EW libraries which sher khan typically does not offer. we know the f22/JSF std EW kit is not on the table, but france seems willing to offer the latest mark of Spectra and likewise EADS its equivalent system.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Jun 2011 22:52

@Singha^^^: Would we want a NATO threat library? I thought we'd want to do our own. Or am I misreading you?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2011 23:03

If the turn rate is lower and the g limits also lower its a mota lota. What will it do in air to air combat? IAF rightly or wrongly percives that is the criteria when it meets the Fizzlya or PLAAF. I think his article is more to assuage US H&D that all izz well. SDRE didn't know the difference between zafran (F-teens) and turmeric(Rafale and EF) while what was offered was Yellow Dye No.2 (Degraded mota lotas)!

------

Quite a contrast to his eralier report recommending India buy American for strategic reasons. If as he says the US planes were inferior then how can he recommend US planes? Even here he says all is still well and not to panic as there are other goods yet to be bought by India. He should give consideration to others opinion too and suggest the US do whats need to enable commerce.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jun 2011 02:16

Was I the only that just missed this? When did Samtel of India partner with Thales of France to produce an IRST for the Dassault Rafale? Katrina has an IRST?

http://www.samteldisplays.com/?page=irst

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jun 2011 02:21

Cosmo_R wrote:Yes. All during the run up, Jeff Kohler and & Co were talking SH-Block II + EPE Engine etc. So, I'd be curious to know if that was not the case from an open/independent source. It's true, then it's clear why they lost.

It is well known that the APG-79 AESA radar on offer was not the full spec version that the US Navy used. The counter argument to that was that the APG-79 AESA radar being offered to India met the parameters as stated in the ASR (Air Staff Requirements). Alas the IAF may have taken that as a snub, because rather than adopt an aircraft with an operational AESA radar, they selected two aircraft that are still testing their AESA radar. The IAF knows that EADS and Dassault - even confirmed by them - will provide full TOT on their AESAs + source codes.

http://www.brahmand.com/news/The-future-air-power-of-India-MMRCA/5105/2/15.html

On the availability of Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA radar, the US government has given its approval but has stated that there would be some restrictions and pre-conditions for the purchase of the aircraft.

http://jpnuclear7.jpplace.net/?p=635

Non committal on Radar TOT: Idrw.org also had reported through the same source that American proposal didn?t clarify or had confusing terms regarding Transfer of technology particularly regarding Second generation Aesa Radar which were offered by American firms , IAF suspected a downgraded or limited capability Aesa might be offered, classic example quoted by official was of Australian F-18 SH having limited tracking and detection range due to software limitation or intentional software bug which later Australian expert were able to rectify after working on them for years with out US help.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 04 Jun 2011 03:05

@Rakesh^^^; OK but I really need to make sure (really sure) I understand:

If this is true: "The counter argument to that was that the APG-79 AESA radar being offered to India met the parameters as stated in the ASR (Air Staff Requirements). Alas the IAF took that as a snub, because rather than adopt an aircraft with an operational AESA radar."

Then it could be (legally) construed as changing the goalposts: If Boeing met the ASQR even with the 'lite' version, and the IAF subjectively opted (snub) for non operational AESAs in pique because they did not get the 'US spec', then there is a problem. Why? because it violates the terms of the original tender which is supposedly "just the criteria". You understand where I am coming from--it negates the basis of the down select.

The first link you provided is not something I could use as an authority.

The second is ambiguous because the terms of the tender were that in phase I, the IAF pilots were going to test against the ASQR--they (or even MoD) are not lawyers and were not being asked to clarify "confusing terms regarding transfer of technology..." which is "extrapolation" and "intent" not the actual reality. All of this would come into force in the downselect when the commercial bids were opened.

On the Australian issue, the plane referred to are the Hornets not the Super Hornets. One Ozzie who is working US-Australia defense issues told me that it was a minor issue exacerbated by the Oz Rep to DC being female and the DoD guy being macho.

It's important to get the story right. If there's even a hint it was subjective in phase 1, God help us because it is going to wind up in the courts. That's why I am asking whether there's any hard evidence (not conjecture) that Boeing in particular might have been disqualified on a subjective basis.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jun 2011 03:17

^^^Cosmo: The key point is "if" Boeing met the ASQR target with the lite version. And that no one else knows, apart from Boeing and the IAF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 04 Jun 2011 04:01

Dunno, but I can't follow Mr. Tellis argumentation. Rafoon doesn't only offer the better kinematic performance, but score in those very areas, where the Shornet is supposedly superior. BVR combat ? Better supersonic manouverbility + superior missile (Meteor) + long range radar (at least EF) + better passive sensors. WVR only Rafale lacks HMCS + advanced WVR missiles, but compensates with BVR IR missiles. Judging by paper specs, ASRAAM and Iris-T are at least as good as AIM-9X.
But we see two finalists, and not exclusive talks with Eurofighter. Therefore I assume that Mr. Tellis is wrong. The IAF doesn't want a one-trick-pony. Even if that would be the case: it's relativly easy to turn a fighter into a bomber, but nigh impossible to turn a bomber into a fighter.
New EPE engines for the Shornet don't solve the wingdrop and flutter issues, and they don't remove the transsonic drag resulting from the low wing sweep angle. Plus the canted pylons + heavy structure (beeing a naval fighter) won't get magically rectified either. So no, new engines wouldn't fix the Shornets performance issues.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VishalJ » 04 Jun 2011 04:52

Katrina C/106 ~Burners Hot~ http://www.airliners.net/photo/1930352/L/

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 04 Jun 2011 05:12

^^Sometime time back, I vaguely remember from a report, that IAF inquiry into AESA offered by both Boeing and LM. They wanted certain traditional all weather mode, in the AESA.. I could understand that my be a Doppler AESA as in EL/M 2052 that supports "PULSE DOPPLER MODE", and uses side lobe antenna as well. They wanted all those stripped off for Carlo Capos and United Abduls that are normal khan sales practice, including in the wanted list was interleaved pulse mode, data mode, AA,AS, AG, SAR, terrain and active beam mapping, and all aspect TwS. We can say, a carbon copy requirement made from the specification of Elta 2052. that is it! (imo).

Now, comes the ban,.. the Khans hated this, and talked to Elta folks get outta India or you would have troubles.. the Israelis succumbed to pressure.. Antony hated it!, and went many times off South Delhi, and relaxed in God's own country often to stay away from worst khan corporate 100% pure capitalistic politics. :wink:

IAF irritated on 643rd + 72 perhaps! :twisted: . I am basing this on various events that happened in the past.. India is not a country that would say no advanced technology especially from the Khans, that would not come with usage infringements, banning third party suppliers, pure conservativeness, hydenic laws, and what not.

Please don't take this at phase value. jmt conspiracy.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratik_S » 04 Jun 2011 13:17

Rakesh wrote:The "not as good" makes all the difference in air combat :) Then again, our enemy is not America.

Not really, lot of other factors come into play like self defense capability, BVR missiles, AWACS support. Fractional differences have hardly affected air combat. IMVHO BVR is less likely scenario in case of India because of the short distances between India and Pak and the Himalayan ranges between India and China.


Also the SH wasn't kicked out because of its Radar, strings, etc but purely on its performance and engines. If the lite version met the ASQR than fine because IAF doesn't look in economics (price) and politics (strings).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby pragnya » 04 Jun 2011 13:18

Rakesh wrote:Was I the only that just missed this? When did Samtel of India partner with Thales of France to produce an IRST for the Dassault Rafale? Katrina has an IRST?

http://www.samteldisplays.com/?page=irst


possibly will get into production if Rafale wins the MMRCA and M2K upgrade goes through. :wink:


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