India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Jun 2011 00:21

Rakesh wrote:And about the superiority of American equipment, if memory serves me right...the US supplied (and still does) Pagalstan with many "superior" Amreeki aircraft...but yet the IAF still managed to deny them air superiority or dominate the air space over India in all previous wars.


You're either talking about 1971, which was 40 YEARS AGO or Kargil, where both air forces stuck to their side of the line.

Rakesh wrote:The Amreekis admit - even with the mighty F-Solah Block 50/52 - that Pagalstan will at most be able to keep the IAF at bay for at most a week.


That's what overwhelming numerical superiority does for you and why Pakistan isn't a threat no matter what plane they get.

On the other hand it does point out an important factor: cost

Cheaper planes allow you to acquire more and counter-balance overwhelming numerical superiority of certain other nations.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Jun 2011 00:21

eklavya wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:the reality is that the Euro-canards will ALWAYS be behind in avionics and thus will ALWAYS be the inferior plane for the mission, even if they do turn a little bit sharper.


Two big claims in cap letters here. Please substantiate these assertions.


Eurofighter AESA

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby eklavya » 06 Jun 2011 00:41

GeorgeWelch wrote:Eurofighter AESA


Is under development I understand.

My question is why are you so sure that the radar/avionics on Typhoon and/or Rafale will "ALWAYS be behind" what was offered to India by the US manufacturers?

How do you know that the radar/avionics package on the Rafale or Typhoon that India will receive 3-4 years hence will be inferior to what would have come with the F-16IN and/or the F-18SH?

This is a serious question, and I would appreciate a serious answer. You seem to know a lot about these issues.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby svinayak » 06 Jun 2011 00:52

eklavya wrote: You seem to know a lot about these issues.

He is the PR guy from the Boeing and LM team

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Ashwini » 06 Jun 2011 00:59

Vishal Jolapara wrote:New upload, Beautiful Kesari Katrina > http://www.airliners.net/photo/1931286/L/


Lovely Photo Again Vishal & thanks for the clarification in the earlier post.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Jun 2011 01:07

eklavya wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:Eurofighter AESA


Is under development I understand.


SH was operational in 2005. EF HOPES to have theirs ready by 2015, 10 years later, by which time the US will have 3rd gen devices ready.

But the more important point behind the EF AESA saga is the government support (or lack thereof).

The member nations have REFUSED to fund AESA development and the current initiative is being entirely industry funded as a temporary measure in hopes of winning export orders (ie India). If they lose India, expect the AESA plans to get shelved rather quickly.

This is very telling. The member nations have no desire to fund upgrades and keep it current. They are cutting military spending to the bone and then whittling away at the bone itself. They will never catch up to the US because they are simply not willing/able to spend the money to do it.

eklavya wrote:My question is why are you so sure that the radar/avionics on Typhoon and/or Rafale will "ALWAYS be behind" what was offered to India by the US manufacturers?


Money

The euro nations refuse to spend it on the military.

eklavya wrote:How do you know that the radar/avionics package on the Rafale or Typhoon that India will receive 3-4 years hence will be inferior to what would have come with the F-16IN and/or the F-18SH?


Because they will be 1st gen devices with a ton of bugs and issues and limitations.

While they're trying to get their radar not to crash, the US will be implementing more advanced modes and features while having a decade of field experience to ensure that everything functions smoothly.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 06 Jun 2011 01:23

I am not sure if anywhere in these discussions it has been mentioned, but, none of the European countries have an enemy that they need to upgrade the EF or the Rafale. Like the Russians, there is really no need for these top notch systems. Declining economies is a smaller reason. even if the economies were bad, IF they had a USSR to contend with they would have minted funds to support upgrades.

One example is the UAE rec of a more powerful engine/radar for the Rafale.

This should not be seen as a knock on these nations (Russia included). It is a matter of fact. They have no need and have no funds.

Whichever vendor does not get the Indian contract can be expected to close down or merge. More likely the latter.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby eklavya » 06 Jun 2011 01:41

It seems the US has a lead in this technology, but it doesn't mean that Selex or Thales cannot catch up, and even exceed what the US manufacturers were offering India. This sort of catch-up happens all the time, in every industry/product. With the IAF MMRCA order, presume funding will be taken care of. The MMRCA begins induction 3-4 years hence, and will then serve for 30-40y. I expect that the AESA equipped Rafale or Typhoon will be superior to the F-16IN and F-18SH offered to India in every respect by the middle of the decade, and that is why they were shortlisted.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 06 Jun 2011 01:45

NRao, you know how much any player can be thin enough to accept our requirements, and we all know even more that money can buy only to a certain level of expertise. Anything and above screwdriver++ is waster of money just for the books.

This is the reason, I am a proponent of buy off the shelf, but have the rights to change sub systems deal only, there by we can float partnership to change either the radar, mission computer, electronic suite or avionics from which ever nation or our own national labs be it. The more we integrate for major players, the better is our back bone for self reliance.

Now, all these will go down the drains, if we don't support projects like AMCA. That is a motivation for all these ToT aspects. Else, why waste money, and go for off the shelf, imports.

Bottom line, HAL is now in a position to build a/cs all by themselves of 2nd generation types.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Jun 2011 02:38

eklavya wrote:It seems the US has a lead in this technology, but it doesn't mean that Selex or Thales cannot catch up


Sure they could . . . if they had the money.

eklavya wrote:This sort of catch-up happens all the time, in every industry/product.


But as NRao touched on, this is a structural problem that is NOT going to get better. The Euro nations don't NEED super-advanced weaponry to toy with Libya.

Until something changes to make them invest heavily in defense, the situation will only get worse.

eklavya wrote:With the IAF MMRCA order, presume funding will be taken care of.


So India is going to fund Europe's military R&D for the next 30 years?

eklavya wrote:I expect that the AESA equipped Rafale or Typhoon will be superior to the F-16IN and F-18SH offered to India in every respect by the middle of the decade


Middle of the decade? You mean 2015? As in when the most optimistic schedule has the EF AESA being operational for the first time?

eklavya wrote:and that is why they were shortlisted.


No, they were shortlisted DESPITE their avionics shortcomings.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 06 Jun 2011 02:41

eklavya wrote:It seems the US has a lead in this technology, but it doesn't mean that Selex or Thales cannot catch up, and even exceed what the US manufacturers were offering India. This sort of catch-up happens all the time, in every industry/product. With the IAF MMRCA order, presume funding will be taken care of. The MMRCA begins induction 3-4 years hence, and will then serve for 30-40y. I expect that the AESA equipped Rafale or Typhoon will be superior to the F-16IN and F-18SH offered to India in every respect by the middle of the decade, and that is why they were shortlisted.



No two ways about that. Neither the Europeans nor the Russians are fools, they have a robust tech industry for sure. However, catching up means funding. They neither have the funds nor the incentive take loans to provide that kind of support. It is not their fault, to be clear.

Another point is that even the Europeans will NOT provide the latest and greatest to India, specially source code, etc. IF the US is at Gen 4 (let us assume) and US is willing to part with Gen 2, so too the Europeans will part with Gen 1 and never provide Gen 2 (let us assume that Gen 2 is their latest). They cannot. IF they do, India, instantly is ahead of them.

What the europeans are providing is great. But the cost to go beyond a certain threshold will be humongous for India. And, here is my reason. Indian needs for upgrades far outstrip those of the Europeans. So, with EF, India will be a single vote (Spain/Italy have no reason to upgrade, UK/Germany -may be, but none on the horizon). India being in the hod she is she better upgrade every 5 yearish.

The ONLY good stuff I see is that India can hopefully take these Gen X techs and run on her own - at a huge cost no doubt but down stream it hopefully helps India. However, that does mean leaving these partners - and for good reason. Even then India will have to lean on them - they have the research data, India does not. All India has is source code and a bunch means to build Gen x technologies. Beyond how to make these latest T/R modules, India has no clue as to how to get to the next step. Remember ToT (from anyone) does not buy the research data, it does not buy supply chain, it does not buy design of processes, etc, etc, etc. What India is buying (from anyone) is a set of technologies, manufacturing knowledge in a given point in time. To improve on ALL this will cost a huge amount.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 06 Jun 2011 03:40

NRao wrote:No two ways about that. Neither the Europeans nor the Russians are fools, they have a robust tech industry for sure. However, catching up means funding. They neither have the funds nor the incentive take loans to provide that kind of support. It is not their fault, to be clear.

Another point is that even the Europeans will NOT provide the latest and greatest to India, specially source code, etc. IF the US is at Gen 4 (let us assume) and US is willing to part with Gen 2, so too the Europeans will part with Gen 1 and never provide Gen 2 (let us assume that Gen 2 is their latest). They cannot. IF they do, India, instantly is ahead of them.


I'd dispute that. Especially if one assumes that they have limitations in funding. The Russians for example provided the kind of access the west would never have contemplated right through the 90s.

While I can't produce paperwork to back it up, I'm convinced the EF consortium will give India access that will justify its investment. The need an infusion of Indian funds a lot more than the US which, perhaps because of a Cold War mentality, will not. If the Astra or Sudarshan were to be mated to the SH, you can bet your pants it would be done by Raytheon and Boeing with only a token participation by DRDO.

So if I may borrow your simplification - if the US is at Gen 4, provides equipment at Gen 3 and technology at Gen 2, the Europeans will provide equipment and technology at Gen 3.

And yes, getting those technologies doesn't mean the technological gap can simply be leapfrogged, but it certainly makes it lot easier for domestic research into derivative and alternative technologies. Radars obtained from Israel being a good example of that.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby eklavya » 06 Jun 2011 03:50

If a small country like Israel can develop an AESA system that the US considers an effective competitor, then there is no reason why Thales and Selex cannot do the same. If this means continued support from India, then so be it, especially as Selex and Thales are independent of the US in their export control decisions.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... india.html

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 06 Jun 2011 04:07

I'd dispute that. Especially if one assumes that they have limitations in funding. The Russians for example provided the kind of access the west would never have contemplated right through the 90s.


There is huge difference what was given and what could have been given.

True the USSR (NOT Russia) provided a good deal of assistance, but, they too held back a great deal (for good reason and it is their prerogative). (BTW, I have a few stories that you will not relish about the MiG-21s.) And, IF Russia was THAT good I doubt India would have floated multiple tenders for spares. Again, it is just business. But, all things said I am not going to complain about that era. Past.

As usual the issues are being confused. I am not arguing that India will not get good stuff, just that even the good stuff will very quickly be out dated and India will have to go back to the Europeans to get more. Which they will provide, but at an additional cost. MMRCA will NOT solve the granular issues that India has. It nor the FGFA will help in making India independent - if anyone feels that a way. NOT possible. That is my point.

While I can't produce paperwork to back it up, I'm convinced the EF consortium will give India access that will justify its investment. The US on the other hand, perhaps because of Cold War era mentality, will not. If the Astra or Sudarshan were to be mated to the SH, you can bet your pants it would be done by Raytheon and Boeing with only a token participation by DRDO.


Plenty of points here.

On investment: I agree. I have to, that was my point too. Just that when the time comes to upgrade, guess what: investment. Again. Back to France or EADS. Which is OK, I am not complaining. Just saying that India is still got that hook in the mouth.

I have been of the opinion - for 10 years or so - that the US will be forced to do things they will otherwise would not be willing to. How much, I could not say. But that Bruce Riedel has come around to saying Indo-US axis, is enough for the time being. That old thinking will have to change on both sides. IMHO, circumstances will force the issue. Prarabdha? Dunno.

I do not see technical issues being a roadblock.

So if I may borrow your simplification - if the US is at Gen 4, provides equipment at Gen 3 and technology at Gen 2, the Europeans will provide equipment and technology at Gen 3.


Do not know what you are saying. But, as far as certain techs go, EU is a Gen 0 right now, going to Gen 1. What they give or do not I will wait and see.

And yes, getting those technologies doesn't mean the technological gap can simply be leapfrogged, but it certainly makes it lot easier for domestic research into derivative and alternative technologies. Radars obtained from Israel being a good example of that.


What has Israeli radars done? Have they given India all the research data?

May be they have, I do not know. But I doubt India can go on her own in any field outside of LCA types. I am placing my hopes on the AMCA. Let us see.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 06 Jun 2011 04:12

eklavya wrote:If a small country like Israel can develop an AESA system that the US considers an effective competitor, then there is no reason why Thales and Selex cannot do the same. If this means continued support from India, then so be it, especially as Selex and Thales are independent of the US in their export control decisions.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... india.html


I am not sure why you are not getting some basic things.

Israel has a huge need for these techs (Iron Dome, etc) and finds the funds.

Thales and Selex are tech companies. Their governmentS do NOT have a need and therefore no funds.

It is not a tech capability issue. Thales + Selex are more than capable. They do not have the funds.

BTW, even the PAK-FA was Sukhoi funded. Let us see how far it goes.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby UBanerjee » 06 Jun 2011 04:16

Frankly the lesson for India in all this should be apparent by now- many nations will choose to sell you equipment and ToT and all that, but basically no one will sell you their process and their background research that lets you stand on your own feet. They will sell you the tech (and that too usually not the top of the line) but they won't sell you how to develop that tech.

It simply has to be done domestically with blood sweat and tears. Its not that partnerships and JVs are bad for us, we gain a decent amount, but they will not give us what we seek, which is self-reliance and indigenous capabilities.

There are no short cuts in this world, no one will carry you to the cutting edge of military tech. This includes PAKFA and the rest.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 06 Jun 2011 04:35

^^correct.. the problem where our babooze are caught is in between the gaps drdo has, and the requirement what IAF wants exceeds any plan drdo can put forward., which is entirely correct from IAF perspective, in the sense they have to maintain force while encourage domestic growth.

the short coming and gaps could be attributed many factors, that we do not have to go into detail here, since that would become out of scope.. but RFP do say ToT to a level that encourages local shops, and I guess a screwdriver++ mftr production setup.. and it is not a technology of the hows, but it would be about whats that goes into these nuts and bolts. So, don't get misguided there, unless somebody as seen the RFP, even then no nation would be ready to foolishly spoon feed us.. this mentality we have to out grow when we seek ToT.

LCA++ is more important than AMCA. sub component level participation is the first step to self reliance (example: Arjun, though it contains imported parts).

Bringing AMCA, is like 30-40 years ahead.. and most of us may not even be alive then.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 06 Jun 2011 04:51

cutting edge


Production or lab?

$10ish is for production.

However, as an example Aug, 2010 :: Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3 ..................

2010 wrote:Thales head of electronic combat system, Pierre Yves Chatiel, explains that those modules, using the Thales Cloud architecture, could be used as conformal antennas on the aircraft sharing the same aperture as the main antenna. However, this will requiered between 5 and 10 years of developpement and 1 billion € of funding.


And, 2005 :: this .............

2005 wrote:The next big step in US military radar technology will this week be put under test. The subject is a five-element-by-five-element subpanel of a low-band active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, but it is unusual in that it also functions as a load-bearing part of an airframe structure, such as a fuselage panel or length of wing.


They are just about to fit an F-18 with one of these - as a test.

Catch up!!!

Russia, on the PAK-FA, has conformal radar units, BUT not as a load-bearing panel.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Chinmayanand » 06 Jun 2011 05:03

The eurobirds won't have to undergo lungi check like the american teens and secondly , specially , the rafale won't be prone to whims of cold war warriors in american establishment. Rafale will be used as and when required unlike the teens.

The difference between the eurobirds and the teens is same as " complete independence " vs "dominion status ".

NRao saab, i find your repeated backing of teens in poor taste. You seem to like dominion status viz-a-viz complete independence.

Operational freedom is much more important than a degraded aesa radar from teens.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 06 Jun 2011 05:33

i find your repeated backing of teens in poor taste.


Yup. That is an statement I have faced since the IAF's decision. It is unfortunate that people do not follow the points being made and get emotional.

Poor taste or not, the fact remains that to make a point (that the Rafale/EF in a few years will be relatively pedestrian - see below) that I have to compare. Since both the teens are history there is no reason for me to defend them - what purpose would that serve. Think about it.

But to make a point - as in my previous post - I have to compare techs. What is wrong with that? Where is the poor taste?

On pedestrain: I feel that by 2020 Indian NEEDS will far outstretch those of France or EADS group. They will not face the treats that India will potentially face in 2020. For all i know by 2020 France will be delighted to sell more advanced techs to China too.

But, they will have the R&D and India will have to go back to them - at a great cost. Just imagine $1 Billion+ for conformal AESA from Thales!!! And that too perhaps by 2020. + they retain the IP.

MMRCA gets you nothing of that.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 06 Jun 2011 05:41

Operational freedom is much more important than a degraded aesa radar from teens.


Two points here.

I would love operational freedom too, and, to that extent kudos to the selection team. I would be very uncomfortable with any AESA that is monitored by the vendor.

However, I have to wonder how mature will the AESAs be on either of these two planes when they get into the IAF. IMHO, this too makes me equally uncomfortable.

OK guys, me am done.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jun 2011 06:10

NRao: Do you believe they will be more mature than anything the Chipandas or Pagalstan can come up with? The Euros will likely never catch up with the Amreekis in AESA technology, but the technology they are offering is more than sufficient to deal with China or Pakistan. No one is going to give us their best technology, that is for us to develop. Anyways, I am glad the down select happened the way it did.

George Welch: Go read the history of the Indo-Pak air war of 1971, before you come up with gems like "...where both air forces stuck to their side of the line."

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 06 Jun 2011 06:10

Regarding comfortability of technology and levels, I guess we are too early to talk.. we need to revisit this topic only after couple of years to take stock, where we are w.r.t to AESA. The fact that our enemies are not advancing faster than us may be the only point our unformtablity must sit with a consisstent efforts on home grown technologies.. That is the only long term solution.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jun 2011 07:41

SaiK: No issue there. But to suggest that the IAF is at a disadvantage because they picked the Euro Canards over the Teens is hilarious. The tears and heartache that has been spent in this forum and elsewhere - due to the down select - is quite funny. The IAF - which many forget is the user of the MMRCA - made its selection based on its threat perception today and in the future (on which the ASRs were based on) and not what a vendor wants it to believe. Now if the Typhoon and Rafale made the shortlist, why the need to make anyone believe otherwise?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jun 2011 07:47

X-Posting from the LCA News & Discussion thread...

vina wrote:
shiv wrote:Actually I liked that Tellis article. I think it was informative. For example he states that the F-16 would never be in contention because it flies like a brick with conformal tanks. And I was quiet surprise to learn that F/A 18 is limited to 7.5G - a bit more than the 7 G prototype of the LCA.

Well, yes and no. The airframe is fully 9G capable. The export "Air Force" versions in service with other countries are fully 9G capable per what I understand. It is only in USN service it is G limited, where it is anyways was primarily a striker with A2A being the role of the F-14 Tomcats. With the new Super Hornets coming in, and the F-14s being retired, it is only now that the Hornets transitioned from being a striker to a full multi role.

But all said,the radar and senor fusion in the F-18 must have been simply the top of the heap and unmatched by any of the other contenders. Pity, it's basic airframe is not upto scratch.

vina: Sensor fusion on the Super Hornet must have been top notch indeed, but if they lost in the kinematics department...what do you think that says about how the IAF perceives a future air war to be like? :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jun 2011 08:15

Talking about Katrina....has anyone seen this? A photoshopped image of a Rafale in Brazilian colours..

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jLVLfZTK3fevVel-BYqypA

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Virupaksha » 06 Jun 2011 08:52

Rakesh wrote:X-Posting from the LCA News & Discussion thread...

vina: Sensor fusion on the Super Hornet must have been top notch indeed, but if they lost in the kinematics department...what do you think that says about how the IAF perceives a future air war to be like? :)

Actually nothing, US-SPEC teen might definitely be much much better than Euro birds.

But is India-SPEC is? is India-SPEC teen so much better than Euro birds to overcome its disadvantages in kinematics.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby UBanerjee » 06 Jun 2011 10:29

Few if any of us have the wisdom to know how the next air wars will be fought and specifically how they will be fought in and around the subcontinent. let us trust in the wisdom of the IAF on this matter that they know the aircraft qualities which will be valuable in their theatre of operations.

it is unsurprising that the american spokesmen are arguing for their case in their articles. it's not our responsibility to make them see the strengths of our position, as long as it remains just that, statements, and not tantrum throwing like the recent Roosi behavior or legal action like past arms deals, which should meet with swift retaliation. Perhaps they can also learn something in the process for future deals.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 06 Jun 2011 16:18

may be IAF wanted only capable delta wings! :twisted: .. btw, any guess if IAF tested these a/cs at above or near Mach 1, for the turn rate or much below that speed?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 06 Jun 2011 18:14

@SaiK

As an decades old chaiwallah told me the testing was quite comprehensive and "brutal". I would interpret it as to the limits the manufacturer let it go. The greater the limits allowed the more points for the manufacturer.

Also it was so brutal that a few panted as we have been discussing in the thread prior to the down select. And unfortunately some insist on discussing it on this thread.

Ashley Tellis has also corrobarated this.

Cheers

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 06 Jun 2011 19:43

Ef2K actually need to think really hard on its unreasonable la black market type pricing.

I think America will insist on the babooze to go for Ef, as they can come with khan A2G, and anti SEAD weaons from Raytheon.


Fr, will now have tuff time to resist a new low price offer from Ef is what I am guessing. I did read about various members of the consortium to take look at pricing of the fighter relative to competing a/cs.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RajeshA » 07 Jun 2011 01:30

If the Europeans do not perceive a future threat to themselves, they do not need to keep back on the technology they transfer to India, unless of course, they want to keep India dependent, but as long as India has not selected one of the two down-selected a/cs, India has the upper-hand and can make the final selection conditional on receiving the top-notch of what they have and on going into a deeper ToT, with India receiving the research documentation as well. They might as well turn over their databases to India.

If the Eurofighter or Rafale cannot live just on the state support and have to rely on Indian shopping bags, then they should be willing to do a dance for us.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Jun 2011 03:00

Seems f 35 is not coming as good as expected, europeans might stick to their own programs:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=14841
The European fighter development community’s views on the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) have become more negative since 2005-06, and this is not, primarily, the result of marketing. The commentary expressed in offline meetings at conferences and shows is much more negative than on-the-record statements suggest.

People at Saab, Eurofighter and Dassault are of one voice on JSF and do not believe it will deliver its promised affordability, whether in acquisition, upgrades or operational cost, or that it will deliver capability on its present schedule. They expect that when JSF emerges from development, its stealth technology will be less valuable than expected, and that it will be inferior in other respects to European products.

The non-competitive selections of the JSF by the Netherlands, Norway and Canada are attributed to three main factors: political pressure by the U.S. (suspected for years but confirmed in 2010 by WikiLeaks), U.S.-oriented air forces, and political vacillation enabled by the fact that full-rate production JSFs are not available for order.

This worldview underpins the Europeans’ determination to keep their programs alive until the JSF program runs its course, or unravels, as they expect it to.


Seems US is trying to shove an inferior jet down their throats..........

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 07 Jun 2011 03:04

^why do we care? we have already decided what is our stealth requirements are.
--
Well, we don't need anyone to dance for us. All we want is, to have a very good a/c that satisfies IAF's requirement and does not come with strings attached, and exorbitant pricing.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Jun 2011 03:10

SaiK, it could mean that europeans might fund typhoon techs more seriously and keep up on upgradations......... once the f 35 shortcomings get more exposed.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Jun 2011 04:33

THe bottomline here seems to be that most of the bluster coming out re. various platforms is nothing but fanboyism or special interests whereby an objective opinion is simply not possible. Diehard fans/interest groups ala Mr. Tellis still hold on to the idea that the Shornet/Solah would've been the best choice - this in the face of what has probably been the most rigorous evaluation ever done by an AF that is valued for its professionalism!

Sure avionics are important, wouldn't the IAF know this? Under the circumstances, one may conclude that perhaps it was evident that in this particular criterion the Shornet/F16 does not hold as much of an edge as some would like to believe. If it was somewhat equal-equal in terms of sensors/avionics, and the Rafale/Tiffy outclassed the Shornet on parameters such as acceleration, turn rates, tolerance to/performance in extreme conditions (Rajasthan, Ladakh etc), the decision would be straightforward, no? Afterall, such a conclusion could certainly be supported by open sources. THat the Rafale/Tiffy are very cutting edge in terms of avionics is not surprising, and that the Shornet/16 flies poorly in comparison should not be either. Re. the EPE engines - was the "international" superhornet even brought for evals? No. Otoh, the EF AESA was demoed to the IAF inflight!

AVionics and gizmos, and fancy roadmaps might impress; but a fighting fit, professional AF would look at some brick-mortar stuff as well. FWIW, I thought the Shornet with the EPEs and the integrated IRST would've been alright - however, the proposal should have come much earlier - they should've demoed it ala the Gripen NG during the evals. Setting up a prop at the last moment (AI 11), was a little too little and a little too late. The blk 60 otoh, was a poor idea from the onset - an aging platform with little future, and the possibility of a PAF catch up was ever doomed to fail this test.

However, there is something redeeming about Tellis' article - it is clearly an attempt to smooth over ruffled feathers - the biggest conclusion here (in opposition to Reidel's in the Wash Post) is that the US ought not to see this decision as cold war suspicion over US as a reliable supplier BUT more as an outcome of strict adherance to rules, a stance the GOI had no choice but to take in the wake of current scandals. The fact that the Russian bird was also left out should lend credibiility to such a line of thought. Of course the possibility of pissing off the traditional heavyweight might have also motivated decisionmakers to go the way they did. AFterall, going Oiropean is by far the most "neutral" choice!

CM.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Jun 2011 04:42

^^Exactly, What AESA will do if SH had problems taking off without any payload from Leh airfield compared to Typhoon and Rafale carrying payload + using shorter runway to take off easily. Now it mus've been clear to IAF after that to reject teens since to use their super radar/avionics first they have to take off with meaningful payload.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Jun 2011 04:55

INteresting work on Tiffy vs. Rafale Kinematics:

http://www.2shared.com/document/AsllGC_ ... phoon.html

I guess, Tiffy is slightly better @ higher altitude and high speed. Good for BVR. Rafale has the edge the slower and lower it gets. Of course this can turn around if the TIffy gets TVC or the Rafale gets the M88.3s/Kaveri.

CM.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 07 Jun 2011 05:10

thx for posting that, nice comparision document.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 07 Jun 2011 05:39

Cain Marko wrote:Re. the EPE engines - was the "international" superhornet even brought for evals? No. Otoh, the EF AESA was demoed to the IAF inflight!

CM.


From what I gathered, the problem with the F414 was that it had/has reached the end of its development cycle. The EJ-200, M88 and the F414 were all designed with the thrust having a growth potential of upto 20% or possibly higher in future evolved variants. The GE engine has reached or is due to reach that level with the EPE thrust of 120kN, while the EJ-200 is still intended to be upgraded (to a 110-120kN variant possibly with TVC), as is the M88 (90kN).


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