India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Jun 2011 01:47

Philip wrote:Here is a controversy that could affect the Rafale's chances.The M-2000 upgrade.The ET report carried in BR says that to upgrade our M-2000s will cost the same as buying a new aircraft and take 9 years to deliver,while taking only 6 for full delivery of the MMRCAs! In addition,though israel offered to do the same for "half the price",the MOD's "only OEM can do the job" policy flies in the face of its open tender for legacy Russian aircraft!.

IAF is not linking the two deals... the questions about the upgrade package have all been sorted out, the haggling then shifted to the weapons package which threatened the whole upgrade deal. It appears that even this has been sorted out now. Waiting for cabinet/CCS approval...

All questions about cost, upgrade schedule etc were known to IAF and MOD, probably the DDMs did not know about this. If IAF wanted a quicker upgrade schedule, they would have negotiated that. M2K line has been silent for years and thus, Dassault needs time to get the components readied.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Jun 2011 01:50

SDREs like to extract the maximum from all its aircrafts, be it the Mig series, Jag, M2ks etc. Only 1 plane were abandoned pretty early and it was the Marut HF-24. Another plane whose retirement was always puzzling for me was the Canberra. We retired the venerable bomber in 2007 suddenly without having another Bomber in the fleet.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 02:16

IAF officers also noted that Israel had also offered to upgrade the Mirages, but at half the price. But the defence ministry quoted an old policy that only OEMs could carry out an upgrade.

"The same ministry has called for competitive bids in recent months for equally complex fighter aircraft, particularly those from Russian or erstwhile Soviet stable," they said.


(have not read the original as yet.........)

Two different topics.

First and foremost, Israel IS an option to upgrade pretty much whatever India has. I recall Israel being mentioned in the MiG-21 upgrade too. And, at a much lesser price IIRC. Yet India went with the OEM. So, there is precedence in this matter too. Something that good IAF officer seems to have inadvertently missed, unless of course he too has a built-in bias, as some among us have.

Next, the issue of "The same ministry has called for competitive bids........". I think it was the client/user that complained often enough (read the article on what the IN did in Jan when the Russian naval chief was in town) to compel the MoD to change her tune from OEM to an alternative. This global tender is NOT fathered by the Indian MoD, just a step father, an issue forced by the vendor. The French too need to be careful, since rightly they can fall into this predicament too.

Having said that I do agree/feel that the M2K upgrade is too expensive to even consider it. I suspect that Rafale will win the MMRCA contest, in which case the M2Ks could go to the Israelis without the French having to complain about anything - which I am dead sure, the French being French, will yell and scream blue murder.

Better still, as some members have posted, pour that money into Indian R&D!!!!!!!!!

BTW, I would like the French to give (yes, give) the hot section of the engine as part of the MMRCA offsets, among a few other things.
Last edited by NRao on 20 Jun 2011 02:26, edited 1 time in total.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20953
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 20 Jun 2011 02:23

One big Q.Future support for the upgraded MIGs.We will face the same poblem as with legacy Russian aircraft.France will be concentrating only on current fighters and unlike the former SU bloc,where there were several manufacturers,will be a single supplier,who can charge at will for spares .I would personally opt for an intl. tender for upgrades or buy more new aircraft/invest the money in the LCA MK-2 development.A limited upgrade is also poss.,as we saw with the Israeli upgrade of Sea Harriers (LUSH).

A comparison of the MIG-29 upgrade costs must also me made as the MIG-29 was according to IAF evaluation (VAYU reports),a better aircraft than the M-2000.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 02:41

For India, TODAY, cost is not an issue. Even the cost of fleecing is not an issue (with embedded corruption, these just cannot be).

What makes cost an issue is preparedness of the armed forces. On a time continuum, what quality, in what quantity can be expected - granted this is too simplistic. Once any of these factors slide too far, then even the corrupt official has little say in the matter. Which is what happened to Russia. (Hate saying Russia, only a few bad apples there.)

It is not that Russia cannot support India. Russia cannot support the preparedness of the Indian forces on a continuous basis, to the satisfaction of the military planner. If there was not current levels of threat from China/Pakistan, I very much doubt it would have escalated to the level it has today.

Come the next Kargil India would be willing to pay twice what is asked for today.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 02:50

And ..................... just BTW, this little thing called preparedness has a HUGE political component. I would, in fact, suspect that the floated tender had more to do with the political angle. Else I very much doubt that it would have moved forward.

Unrelated to this thread, but this article shows the dynamics, between civilians and armed forces, very well. Note how the Home ministry reacted a few years back. Let us see how they react now - with the same request from the IA and MoD.

Army wants operational control of ITBP for better border posture against China

IF the IA does get such control it should mean that LAC is a lot more active than we know it to be.

Also, I wonder if the IAF global tender and such requests are related. I suspect they are.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2011 03:16

cheenum ..whoa! so it was naive of us to have thought for so many cold years to be allied with Russia? Just asking for the naivety alone here.

We have distributed our risks equally now, and we are heading towards pleasing every tom dick harry nation which is willing to provide us new technology.

So, risk factors are not the same anymore.. the degree of freedom has increased.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Jun 2011 03:35

NRao wrote:... I would like the French to give (yes, give) the hot section of the engine as part of the MMRCA offsets, among a few other things.

In the near future, offsets are going to be really interesting, wonder what goodies are in store for Desh. The order for 10C-17s is giving us an High altitude engine testing, imagine the offsets for MMRCA or the subsequent order for C-17s and C-130Js... Wonder what it is going to be for the Mirage upgrade deal?
A Pooch, what were the offsets for Mig-29 upgrade deal and the first C130J deals?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 03:44

So, risk factors are not the same anymore.. the degree of freedom has increased.


Sadly, NO.

Risks will be manageable IF the actors behave as modeled. Else, ALL hell will break loose.

I am inclined to go with the latter. Even Israel seems to be leaning towards moving away from India. THIS GoI has not too well in managing strategic goals for India.

In fact I would toss the L1 issues out and take the Rafale - purely from a strategic PoV.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Jun 2011 03:47

SaiK wrote:cheenum ..whoa! so it was naive of us to have thought for so many cold years to be allied with Russia? Just asking for the naivety alone here.
We have distributed our risks equally now, and we are heading towards pleasing every tom dick harry nation which is willing to provide us new technology.
So, risk factors are not the same anymore.. the degree of freedom has increased.

I understand you are giving me a retort, but for what? would appreciate details. I was saying, having to trust 4 countries partnering the Eurofighter project imposes an undue risk higher than Rafale, and hence I favor the Dassault Rafale for our MMRCA.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2011 04:07

I am not saying your risks are not existent. My thoughts are that these risks of 4 countries in partnership against 1 has no basis in my reasoning, in that actually lies more opportunity for us being the 5th element of the partnership. Actually, I would not even classify as risk, but an opportunity for us.

--

NRao, per my thoughts, these risks are largely because of dependency relationship our forces have established.. say tomorrow, we can be more independent, in the sense relying on LCA & MCA perhaps in the near future, then these risks will become zero. In fact, there would be more countries trying to offer us and partner with us.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 04:25

per my thoughts, these risks are largely because of dependency relationship our forces have established.. say tomorrow, we can be more independent, in the sense relying on LCA & MCA perhaps in the near future, then these risks will become zero. In fact, there would be more countries trying to offer us and partner with us.


Sure. PROVIDED they behave then (in the future) the way you expect them to behave today (as you have modeled or thought of).

I am betting they will not.

That is all. Not saying you are wrong.

Some random thoughts:

In fact, I expect Israel to change her behavior in a year or two. So, in my books, after this whatever, barak-8(?), we are done. I really do not see an Indo-Israel project that takes off as we had all thought they may have in the past.

I do NOT see Germany, Spain or Italy as players. Unless India is this India in 2030. But I doubt that will be - the forces of economics and politics will drive (talk of prarabdha) it in a certain direction or we will witness a colossal collapse.

----------------------------

added l8r:

Actually, I would not even classify as risk, but an opportunity for us.


Opportunity has an unknown component - THAT is a risk.

Risk by itself is not bad. What is bad about risk is not knowing what to manage or how to manage what is known.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2011 05:35

You see, if we can not measure or quantify "uncertainty", then it is very hard to classify that as risk. It may be management of hows to knowledge of whats., including how we model, deal with enemies and allies (if we do have one?).

So, unless proven something within a time span (scope), that is sure to happen, then I would rather not call it risk but put it in opportunity basket. Quantifiable uncertainty could be considered risk, which is like Italy is going to go bust in a years time or UK will withdraw in 6 months time etc..

So, we need strong data for this risk analysis.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 20 Jun 2011 06:19

SaiK wrote:So, Viv S, do you say Ef would be comparable to Rf on cost? Do you think they would have reduced the costs to match Rf? Having come so close to lose to Rf in final round for a fist full of $ would be pretty bad. what are your thoughts on Ef pricing and other cost?


Manufactured in India, very much so. Actually I'm convinced it'll be good bit cheaper. Two reasons why -

1. Development Cost -

I've already posted this but what's one more time.

EUROFIGHTER:

Total program cost : $96 billion
Units contracted: 560
Unit cost: $170 million
http://www.channel4.com/news/multibilli ... d-revealed
(Assuming the UK financed 1/3 of the program) (Includes Tranche 3 spending)


RAFALE

Total program cost: $53 billion
Units contracted: 180
Unit cost: $295 million
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-2 ... tback.html


We mostly hear about the EF being over-budget. I don't speak French but I'm betting the Rafale's gotten a shellacking in the France's domestic media over cost escalation as well.


2. Economies of Scale - of the imports for components that do take place, the larger considerably larger order sizes will depress costs incurred by the subcontractors employed by the EF.




NRao wrote:
In the Indian context, the entire production line will be progressively setup in India.


For Rafale, in due time, yes.

For EF, in due time, No. India would be a one of five partners and therefore will be assigned some components. What components that India does not manufacture will come from the other work-share partners.

The enticing news WRT the EF is the design shop they have either already set up or intend to do so.


The details of India's future participation in the consortium remain to be negotiated. The MRCA contract on the other hand very clearly spells out the fact that HAL will be manufacturing whichever aircraft is selected. Like the MKI production, the imported content will eventually be scaled down, with the eventual aim being to manufacture it completely in-house. There is no question of basic fabrication being performed according to the current model. Development work or spares production yes, but sheer logistics would make manufacturing completely unworkable. The production facilities in Europe on the other hand are 12-18 hours away by road and being part of a single economic zone, its simpler from a legal/accounting perspective.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 20 Jun 2011 06:31

Philip wrote:Here is a controversy that could affect the Rafale's chances.The M-2000 upgrade.The ET report carried in BR says that to upgrade our M-2000s will cost the same as buying a new aircraft and take 9 years to deliver,while taking only 6 for full delivery of the MMRCAs! In addition,though israel offered to do the same for "half the price",the MOD's "only OEM can do the job" policy flies in the face of its open tender for legacy Russian aircraft!.


I'm convinced the Mirage upgrade is a bad idea. Though I confess I'm biased because a retiring Mirage-2000 improves the Tejas' prospects. Why spend $45 million+ on upgrading an aircraft when the same figure nets you a better aircraft with a lower operating cost and at least twice the airframe life.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 06:34

SaiK wrote:You see, if we can not measure or quantify "uncertainty", then it is very hard to classify that as risk. It may be management of hows to knowledge of whats., including how we model, deal with enemies and allies (if we do have one?).

So, unless proven something within a time span (scope), that is sure to happen, then I would rather not call it risk but put it in opportunity basket. Quantifiable uncertainty could be considered risk, which is like Italy is going to go bust in a years time or UK will withdraw in 6 months time etc..

So, we need strong data for this risk analysis.


Old stuff. There is nothing new to this area. Everyone does it every moment of their lives, just that some acts are so natural that we do not even consider it as a risk, until something happens - driving as an example. Some of us do it for a living (financial planners, etc).

It would be a huge travesty if India had not (say in 1995 onwards) taken the current situation with the Russians into account to manage that risk.

Seems to me that India did a horrendous job WRT Israel.

There is much more to be said, but, enough on the topic. Does not help this thread.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 06:35


The details of India's future participation in the consortium remain to be negotiated. The MRCA contract on the other hand very clearly spells out the fact that HAL will be manufacturing whichever aircraft is selected. Like the MKI production, the imported content will eventually be scaled down, with the eventual aim being to manufacture it completely in-house.


May be that memo did not reach the Prez of EF then. He was very clear that India will NOT build the EF completely.

There was another article where he responded to a question posed by an indian reporter, but here is another ref:

Eurofighter board meet in New Delhi for strategic talks

"The Eurofighter Supervisory Board is meeting in New Delhi to underline the importance we attach to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner. Even ahead of any contract, we are ready to engage India's defence and aerospace industry in joint production and research & development (R&D) for Eurofighter Typhoon," Bernhard Gerwert, Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems, was quoted as saying in the company news release.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 06:50

Eurofighter woos India with partner offer

By James Lamont in Bangalore

Published: February 10 2011 22:30 | Last updated: February 10 2011 22:30

All of the partners will have to reduce content in Europe and shift to India,” he said.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 20 Jun 2011 07:35

NRao wrote:

The details of India's future participation in the consortium remain to be negotiated. The MRCA contract on the other hand very clearly spells out the fact that HAL will be manufacturing whichever aircraft is selected. Like the MKI production, the imported content will eventually be scaled down, with the eventual aim being to manufacture it completely in-house.


May be that memo did not reach the Prez of EF then. He was very clear that India will NOT build the EF completely.

There was another article where he responded to a question posed by an indian reporter, but here is another ref:

Eurofighter board meet in New Delhi for strategic talks

"The Eurofighter Supervisory Board is meeting in New Delhi to underline the importance we attach to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner. Even ahead of any contract, we are ready to engage India's defence and aerospace industry in joint production and research & development (R&D) for Eurofighter Typhoon," Bernhard Gerwert, Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems, was quoted as saying in the company news release.



The setting up of comprehensive manufacturing facilities at HAL is specified as a part of the contract and not something that EF may or may not choose to provide at its president's discretion. Joint production like R&D is reference to the future presumably vis-a-vis export orders.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby svinayak » 20 Jun 2011 07:47

NRao wrote:For India, TODAY, cost is not an issue. Even the cost of fleecing is not an issue (with embedded corruption, these just cannot be).

What makes cost an issue is preparedness of the armed forces. On a time continuum, what quality, in what quantity can be expected - granted this is too simplistic. Once any of these factors slide too far, then even the corrupt official has little say in the matter. Which is what happened to Russia. (Hate saying Russia, only a few bad apples there.)

It is not that Russia cannot support India. Russia cannot support the preparedness of the Indian forces on a continuous basis, to the satisfaction of the military planner. If there was not current levels of threat from China/Pakistan, I very much doubt it would have escalated to the level it has today.

Come the next Kargil India would be willing to pay twice what is asked for today.

Good observation. India in the process of MMRCA will have to upgrade its entire industry in 30 years to reach the level to support preparedness of the armed forces.
It does not have a choice.

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Dmurphy » 20 Jun 2011 07:54

NRao wrote:Eurofighter woos India with partner offer

By James Lamont in Bangalore

Published: February 10 2011 22:30 | Last updated: February 10 2011 22:30

All of the partners will have to reduce content in Europe and shift to India,” he said.

Sorry, I couldn't read the article since I'm not registered on that site. However, I'm quite skeptical about EF's partner offer. They have divided the aircraft building work among themselves quite objectively and have spent substantial amount of money in setting up that infrastructure. So much so, that either of the 4 partner countries is unable to manufacture the entire EF independently even if they need to, because of the diversified work they all do (unlike France). In such a scenario, if India does go in for the EF, it will end up being merely be a part of the EF consortium - the work getting divided 5 ways instead of 4 ways. So that would mean very little chances of India getting a good amount of TOT - forget 100%. It will of course mean India has to keep sourcing 80% of the parts from EU while the EF consortium sources 20% from India - something they're self sufficient in manufacturing already. That will be giving the EU too much leverage in our production schedule and even after sales service. I would rather go in for rafale and manufacture the entire aircraft just for the Indian order here than manufacture canopies and wings for all the orders of EF.

Viv S wrote:The setting up of comprehensive manufacturing facilities at HAL is specified as a part of the contract and not something that EF may or may not choose to provide at its president's discretion. Joint production like R&D is reference to the future presumably vis-a-vis export orders.
Viv S, I really doubt if its that straight forward. If you're presuming the down select of the EF means they've agreed for a "comprehensive manufacturing facilities" then it may not be true. What if the down select of EF & Rafale is based solely on their performance in the trials - which I think is the case and they're treating the manufacturing / sourcing strategy as a completely different thing? How can one be so sure when the EF has repeatedly offered "partnership" in the media but never promised a complete TOT like Gripen or Rafale has?

This link throws some light on the matter:
The French government has also cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. France also agreed to transfer software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if needed.

EADS has also invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies :| for new Eurofighters.
As you see, "manufacture assemblies" doesn't really sound like a "comprehensive manufacturing facility"

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2011 09:30

the brits have already said they will zealously guard their workshare of jobs for EF. likewise all the others need to guard jobs too.

we could supply some nerolac paints maybe, a cup holder for pepsi, rubber floor mats, landing lights....if it shapes up as they want.

Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Juggi G » 20 Jun 2011 14:18

:D The Eurofighter Guys are Certainly Trumpeting the Fact that They are Shortlisted for India's MMRCA Contest

Image

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16815
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 20 Jun 2011 15:57

Viv S wrote:The setting up of comprehensive manufacturing facilities at HAL is specified as a part of the contract and not something that EF may or may not choose to provide at its president's discretion. Joint production like R&D is reference to the future presumably vis-a-vis export orders.


OK, let us reboot.

Oct, 2010 :: If India picks Eurofighter, it will create thousands of jobs here

You have reportedly said that if you win the contract, you will move avionics operations and a few thousand jobs from Europe to India. In light of the above situation, isn’t that a bit too far fetched? Isn’t avionics too high end a domain to be moved to India?

Bernhard Gerwert: Let me correct you. We already have an EADS engineering centre in Bangalore, which was started three years ago for Airbus. In the beginning of this year, we have also opened our military engineering centre in Bangalore. We have hired twenty engineers there, but our intention is to ramp up our strength to 250-300 people by 2012. This program is independent from the Eurofighter. So, for the moment, we are not talking of moving thousands of jobs to India. If, however, the Eurofighter is selected, then, we would be contractually bound to affect a sixty percent technology transfer. Now, in Europe, the Eurofighter program employs roughly one hundred thousand people. We have roughly 400 main sub-contractors in Europe. So, if India decides for the Eurofighter, the technology transfer clause would mean that we would create thousands of jobs in India.


That is it!!!

I am not sure what you mean by comprehensive manufacturing facilities, but I hope you are not implying with-in-reason close to 100% ToT.

What EADS has stated is that India will have access to 100% EF related stuff (NOTE: This does NOT imply that India will have access to other on-going research at EADS!! It means ONLY related to the EF, granted that is something too.)

(This is a great article to catch up on.)

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2011 16:28

I think many would be in rude shock in a few months, just like the one on shortlist, where we eliminated SH that was even on BR's strongly voted a/c list for top selection.

I don't speak to chaiwalas

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2011 16:32

we need manufacturing expertise in metallury, machining, QC, electro-optics, electronics...not just munna itvity jobs inside the offsets dossier.

cast a net along ORR and you will sweep up 100K munna's easy to run itvity.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2011 16:43

but, those are the areas normally companies keep to themselves under IP rights, and we have no idea what exactly we are seeking yet (rfp: not public).

Of course, these expertise can't be easily transferred by perhaps some data given the hard way for us to realize where we want to go. Now is the time to take stock of current status, and do a reality check for the exact areas we need external knowledge bank to help us out.

Obvious cases are normally on the borderline status every time we came to a thought, we need some kind of help... and the real work horses get worked up to deliver. May be, few whips can help as well. /jmt

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 20 Jun 2011 17:02

Dassault: India Set ‘Difficult’ Conditions on MMRCA
Defensenews

The Indian request for tender including offsets which were “very tough,” Edelstenne told journalists ahead of the Paris Air Show which opens June 20.
It will be “very difficult to answer to this request. We want to be chosen; we will negotiate on this subject,” he said.


The Rafale was also being considered by other undisclosed countries, a company executive said. The French government has made export of the Rafale a “priority” because of the perceived importance of the fighter industry in political, technological and economic terms, and also because of the domestic budgetary needs, Edelstenne said.

France has written into its defense budgets export of the Rafale, and if those foreign sales fail to appear, funding must be found from other defense programs to finance an annual output of 11 aircraft, the minimum deemed for economic sense.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Jun 2011 17:08

Italian Eurofighters complete 1000 flying hours over Libya

The ItAF’s Typhoons have been responsible for the defence of high value airborne assets deployed by NATO in Libya such as AWACS, ISR and air tankers plus the protection of tactical assets involved in Combined Air Operations (COMAO).

PrithviRajChauhan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Sep 2009 00:59

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby PrithviRajChauhan » 20 Jun 2011 17:57

Backchannel diplomacy on afterburners !
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-20/lockheed-may-pitch-f-35-to-rejoin-11-billion-india-jet-contest.html

“I certainly believe it’s possible,” Dewar said when asked if the potential F-35 offer could lead to the Indian Air Force reopening the contest. India “might think differently about the competition” should the stealthy jet become available.


Picture abhi baaki hai dost !

jagbani
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 07 Jun 2011 19:37

Defence brass split over French Mirage upgrade deal

Postby jagbani » 20 Jun 2011 18:03

NEW DELHI: With the $2.4 billion Mirage-2000 upgrade deal with France in its final stages, India's defence ministry and air force top brass seem to be split over the high costs and likely benefits to the country's future air power needs.

With the contract papers said to be headed to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), the volume against the deal is rising, top officials told IANS here.
source:- http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/news/ ... 110_120777

UBanerjee
BRFite
Posts: 516
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 01:41
Location: Washington DC

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby UBanerjee » 20 Jun 2011 18:04

LM should realize the whole point of the MMRCA is that we need these jets yesterday, not in 20XX when the F35 program finally gets under control.
Last edited by UBanerjee on 20 Jun 2011 18:08, edited 1 time in total.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Jun 2011 18:06

Eurofighter completes first phase of Meteor missiles tests

Eurofighter have completed a range of air-carriage trials for the MBDA Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM), which forms part of the process of integrating the missile onto the Typhoon swing-role combat aircraft.

The first of a series of trials to ensure the safe separation of the missile across the flight envelope were carried out by Eurofighter Partner Company BAE Systems with Instrumented Production Aircraft IPA 1 on the Aberporth range, UK.

A lot of EF today :D

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2011 18:13

we do already have a desi JSFski planned - AMCA.

JSF cannot be the MRCA - we would not get a single one in the next decade.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Defence brass split over French Mirage upgrade deal

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Jun 2011 18:24

jagbani wrote:NEW DELHI: With the $2.4 billion Mirage-2000 upgrade deal with France in its final stages, India's defence ministry and air force top brass seem to be split over the high costs and likely benefits to the country's future air power needs.

With the contract papers said to be headed to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), the volume against the deal is rising, top officials told IANS here.
source:- http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/news/ ... 110_120777


compare cost of upgrade against 2G scam money siphoned off...

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2011 18:28

When France & Germany are playing hard ball and struggling to answer various difficult terms with MoD, how in the world people think unkill can without just having us sign up for various treaties? :evil:

saurav.jha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 40
Joined: 16 Dec 2009 20:53

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby saurav.jha » 20 Jun 2011 19:43

A little twist..

Lockheed May Pitch F-35 to Rejoin $11 Billion India Jet Contest

Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) may offer its latest F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to India in a bid to rejoin the Asian country’s $11 billion combat-jet contest after the older F-16 model was eliminated earlier in the evaluation process.
Lockheed’s chances of offering the F-35 for the 126-plane order were boosted when the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee last week asked the Defense Department to study by November the “desirability and feasibility” of a future JSF sale to India, Patrick Dewar, senior vice president for corporate strategy and business development, said in an interview at the Paris Air Show.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-20/lockheed-may-pitch-f-35-to-rejoin-11-billion-india-jet-contest.html

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2011 19:59

so, with greater than $115K or more, how the heck JSF would win an L1 deal given that maasans have a super power political ways to intoxicate our babooze?

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Jun 2011 20:04

ignore LM, its a spoiling tactic, believe unkil's words when he releases source code to two gora poodles first

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 20 Jun 2011 20:18

Dmurphy wrote:Viv S, I really doubt if its that straight forward. If you're presuming the down select of the EF means they've agreed for a "comprehensive manufacturing facilities" then it may not be true. What if the down select of EF & Rafale is based solely on their performance in the trials - which I think is the case and they're treating the manufacturing / sourcing strategy as a completely different thing? How can one be so sure when the EF has repeatedly offered "partnership" in the media but never promised a complete TOT like Gripen or Rafale has?

This link throws some light on the matter:
The French government has also cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. France also agreed to transfer software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if needed.

EADS has also invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies :| for new Eurofighters.
As you see, "manufacture assemblies" doesn't really sound like a "comprehensive manufacturing facility"


NRao wrote:I am not sure what you mean by comprehensive manufacturing facilities, but I hope you are not implying with-in-reason close to 100% ToT.

What EADS has stated is that India will have access to 100% EF related stuff (NOTE: This does NOT imply that India will have access to other on-going research at EADS!! It means ONLY related to the EF, granted that is something too.)

(This is a great article to catch up on.)



Hang on! I'm a little puzzled here. What I gathered from the hundreds of articles on the MRCA published over the last decade was that HAL was to manufacture 108 units of the selected aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... lease.html
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mir ... ges-01989/


Eurofighter decided to ice that cake by involving India in future (read: export) builds as well as the R&D effort. When did EF unilaterally decide to move manufacturing right back to Europe (domestic jobs be damned)? The MoD isn't going to tolerate that sort of deviance from the laid down modalities.


P.S. - By 'comprehensive manufacturing', I was drawing a parallel to the MKI's deep manufacture at HAL in contrast to EF's diffused manufacturing facilities. We don't have 100% ToT for the MKI (and Rafale's not going to provide that either regardless of what they're selling to the media). Certain critical components will certainly have to be imported (esp. vis-a-vis the engine and radar), but there is no way the MoD will accept fuselages being shipped in from Germany, wings from Spain and Italy, while HAL manufactures the canards.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests