India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Karan M » 22 Jun 2011 05:27

Craig Alpert wrote:Radar ranges for RDY 3 might be "rumored" but their capabilities as oppose to EL/M 2032 far outweighs what 2032 can offer. I can tell you that the range for EL/M 2032 is a mere 80nm making it a WVR. Apart from the range, it is a pulse Doppler radar and is severely hampered with additional capabilities (not sure if it should be discussed on an open forum). There is a reason why 2052 is not being offered. RDY-3 has slightly better capabilities (and I don't mean 10 km greater detection range!) then 2032, but it offers certain features which 2032 "can't" seem to offer. In the event 2052 happens or if IAF is successful in developing their "indigenous" aesa radar for MkII then sure, LCA mk II would be a better option, but up until LCA delivers what IAF and TDAEC in specific requires, not upgrading Mirages and having them replaced with LCA is a non starter discussion.


Hilarious stuff. 80 nm is WVR? And who says the series Mk1 LCAs have 2032? They have MMR running Israeli and Indian software on Indian hardware with some Israeli processors added. Heck, its more powerful than the RDY3 to boot, which is a downgraded version of the RDY2. Once the MMR gets certified, its every bit the equal or even superior to the RDY3. And 2032 is now a "pulse doppler radar" and "severely hampered" - what?? Both radars are pulse doppler mechanically scan radars. Kindly don't throw terms around for the sake of using them.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 22 Jun 2011 05:35

Actually there is a chaiwala talk since the Elta was banned to sell 2052 to LCA.. Raytheon I believe wants directly handle LCA AESA radar deals.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby raajneesh » 22 Jun 2011 06:11

SaiK wrote:Again, if we need JSF, we could always buy it via FMS route.. if that is the strategy we are talking, we can always do that.. khan can give to us for low interest rate loan as well... because I see a strong direction change in khan attitude.. SD is controlling state media, to all praising India in today niche discussions.


Are you serious or just playing a trick on us? Buying warplanes on loans, is a baki policy fit for rented states. I don't see India going that way.
Last edited by raajneesh on 22 Jun 2011 06:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Avid » 22 Jun 2011 06:52

People who have never dealt with logistics nightmares, not have considered a multi objective optimization nightmare. Buying cool toys and gadgets as if for household use, with optimization remaining on cost alone.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby raajneesh » 22 Jun 2011 06:59

Avid wrote:People who have never dealt with logistics nightmares, not have considered a multi objective optimization nightmare. Buying cool toys and gadgets as if for household use, with optimization remaining on cost alone.


People used "logistics nightmares" as one of prime excuse for not inducting Arjun MBT in big numbers. Ironically, people won't have any second thoughts before talking about F-35 which is totally distinct bird.



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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby gakakkad » 22 Jun 2011 08:31

Why is the US gov't hell bent on selling us a fighter ? Even when they know that f 35 does not full-fill our requirements . It IS A COMBAT RADIUS MERELY 1000 KM . Its air to air capabilities are wholly reliant upon stealth. Its high altitude performance is unimpressive.

Former RAND author John Stillion has written of the F-35A's air-to-air combat performance that it “can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run”, but Lockheed Martin test pilot Jon Beesley has countered that in an air-to-air configuration the F-35 has almost as much thrust as weight and a flight control system that allows it to be fully maneuverable even at a 50-degree angle of attack.
Chen Hu, editor-in-chief of World Military Affairs magazine has said that the F-35 is too costly because it attempts to provide the capabilities needed for all three American services in a common airframe.[180] Dutch news program NOVA show interviewed US defense specialist Winslow T. Wheeler and aircraft designer Pierre Sprey who called the F-35 "heavy and sluggish" as well as having a "pitifully small load for all that money", and went on to criticize the value for money of the stealth measures as well as lacking fire safety measures. His final conclusion was that any air force would be better off maintaining its fleets of F-16s and F/A-18s compared to buying into the F-35 program. Lockheed spokesman John Kent has said that the missing fire-suppression systems would have offered "very small" improvements to survivability.


What could be the reason behind the offer ?

1) Is the development of AMCA going @ real fast pace and they fell the need to halt it ? Their chaiwalas may know something ours don't . (something similar to raytheons "combat proven" laser guides )
2)Do the 35s suck so badly in spite of the money they spent on them that they want to sell them @ all cost for recovery .
2) They have some enmity against the European industries . Honestly I dont see the reason for NATO now . Why should europeans send their men to die and strain their resources for attacting random countries when US plays such a sissy boy for a mere aircraft sale . Barack Husein is said to have written MMS a letter for the purpose . First time in history of aviation did such a thing happen . "please ,please buy our aircrafts , yaar election aaa rahe hain , jaan bacha le yaar paaji ".

3)Is the financial data of lockheed is worse then they declare ? (are they creatively accounting?) Yikes I better sell my lockheed stocks :)

4) :) Is the US finally repentant on all the help it provided to the terrorist state of pakistan? that it is desperate to make amends now . :) far fetched :)

5) A conspiracy by TSP to delay signing of the mmrca tenders to slow down the enhancement of overwhelming air superiority that we even currently enjoy over them and thereby reducing some of their salwaar shivers . :) Even more far fetched.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 22 Jun 2011 09:05

The wikipedia is wikeyed with Rafale N being canceled due to paucity of funds. Anyone has more information on this?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 22 Jun 2011 09:17

I wonder why we are even discussing this - the JSF was never a contender for MRCA.

it could potentially come into picture if the AMCA is a flop in terms of benchmarks or badly delayed - near about 2025.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 22 Jun 2011 09:23

And... why is that non finalist keep thinking they can come back again to win the 126++ fighters? All the 4 non finalists except the Russians feel they have the right to win.

Now, how much of the legal aspects we cater to such provocation is anybody's guess. Some time back we highlighted a case, where supreme court trashed a counter move to deny an order placement., and it quoted the laws are here to protect the citizens of India, and to see there is no corruption involved. And this is not something the losers can take up to win business deals based on some loop hole built on abstract legal thin air.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Jun 2011 09:28

gakakkad wrote:Why is the US gov't hell bent on selling us a fighter ? Even when they know that f 35 does not full-fill our requirements . It IS A COMBAT RADIUS MERELY 1000 KM . Its air to air capabilities are wholly reliant upon stealth. Its high altitude performance is unimpressive.


Combat radius of "merely" 1000km? That is not bad at all for a single engined fighter, not too many that can top that (I can only think of the GripenNG). And it probly is a bit more. The range on internal fuel for the bird is about 2200km, v.similar to Tiffy or Rafale, and better than the F-16 it is replacing. Payload is excellent.

The area where it probly does suck is kinematics - mediocre TWR , and wingloading but with internal weapons (4-6 AAMs) carriage, drag should be kept to a minimum in A2A. Probly better than a Shornet anyways. And of course, it has stealth, which might v.well mean a game changer. AVionics/sensor wise it is every bit as good as (if not better than) the F-18e/f that was offered, and arguably the v. best in the MRCA race.

No sirji, this is not a bird to diss esp. in terms of survivability. It might provide just the versatility reqd. vs. S300 type SAMs adding to IAF operational tactics in a big way. But no doubt, the tradeoff vis a vis kinematics is rather big. it might pose a big danger to the AMCA program as well - who knows? Anyways, I doubt anything will come off this.

CM

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 22 Jun 2011 09:34

So, all that SH lacks is JSF wings or Rafale wings?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Juggi G » 22 Jun 2011 09:50

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Boreas » 22 Jun 2011 09:51

SaiK wrote:Actually there is a chaiwala talk since the Elta was banned to sell 2052 to LCA.. Raytheon I believe wants directly handle LCA AESA radar deals.

Seconded!

unkil didnt had a problem with american aesa on Tejas. When they issued that list of nation prohibited for sale of elta, all they wanted to acheive was to downgrade chances of Grippen in Mrca. But that stunt backfired big time.

Now that saga being finished unkil's businessman wont let go some easy money.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Juggi G » 22 Jun 2011 09:59


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohamn » 22 Jun 2011 10:18

gakakkad wrote:Why is the US gov't hell bent on selling us a fighter ? Even when they know that f 35 does not full-fill our requirements . It IS A COMBAT RADIUS MERELY 1000 KM . Its air to air capabilities are wholly reliant upon stealth. Its high altitude performance is unimpressive.

Former RAND author John Stillion has written of the F-35A's air-to-air combat performance that it “can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run”, but Lockheed Martin test pilot Jon Beesley has countered that in an air-to-air configuration the F-35 has almost as much thrust as weight and a flight control system that allows it to be fully maneuverable even at a 50-degree angle of attack.
Chen Hu, editor-in-chief of World Military Affairs magazine has said that the F-35 is too costly because it attempts to provide the capabilities needed for all three American services in a common airframe.[180] Dutch news program NOVA show interviewed US defense specialist Winslow T. Wheeler and aircraft designer Pierre Sprey who called the F-35 "heavy and sluggish" as well as having a "pitifully small load for all that money", and went on to criticize the value for money of the stealth measures as well as lacking fire safety measures. His final conclusion was that any air force would be better off maintaining its fleets of F-16s and F/A-18s compared to buying into the F-35 program. Lockheed spokesman John Kent has said that the missing fire-suppression systems would have offered "very small" improvements to survivability.


What could be the reason behind the offer ?

1) Is the development of AMCA going @ real fast pace and they fell the need to halt it ? Their chaiwalas may know something ours don't . (something similar to raytheons "combat proven" laser guides )
2)Do the 35s suck so badly in spite of the money they spent on them that they want to sell them @ all cost for recovery .
2) They have some enmity against the European industries . Honestly I dont see the reason for NATO now . Why should europeans send their men to die and strain their resources for attacting random countries when US plays such a sissy boy for a mere aircraft sale . Barack Husein is said to have written MMS a letter for the purpose . First time in history of aviation did such a thing happen . "please ,please buy our aircrafts , yaar election aaa rahe hain , jaan bacha le yaar paaji ".

3)Is the financial data of lockheed is worse then they declare ? (are they creatively accounting?) Yikes I better sell my lockheed stocks :)

4) :) Is the US finally repentant on all the help it provided to the terrorist state of pakistan? that it is desperate to make amends now . :) far fetched :)

5) A conspiracy by TSP to delay signing of the mmrca tenders to slow down the enhancement of overwhelming air superiority that we even currently enjoy over them and thereby reducing some of their salwaar shivers . :) Even more far fetched.


Don't go with the quote of John Stillion and Winslow T. Wheeler. They have vested interests and hence they make such statements.
F -35 A lightning is definitely better than any MRCA contenders in fray. India would only have a better aircraft in PAK-FA, but till then we will not have any aircraft to match F-35 JSF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby uddu » 22 Jun 2011 10:27

What about Tejas being offered to Brazil?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Jun 2011 10:32

Actually, the TWR on the JSF isn't so bad. I guess the PW F-135 spouts close to 20 tons of thrust in AB, which means a better TWR than the current Shornet for sure. At 50% internal fuel, you are looking at a TWR of > 1 with 4 internal AAMS. Now if you take a look at the F-16 blk 60 (or even blk50 with a similar loadout, the TWR is slightly lower on the solah, wingloadingwise, the JSF is v.similar, and of course range would be much better on the JSF. So, while it might not match the ecanards in kinematics, it will probly be equal/better than the F-16blk50/60, and Shornet (for sure).

No slouch A2A I'd say WVR and totally kickass BVR. But I could be wrong, aero gurus might have better informed estimates.

CM.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chetak » 22 Jun 2011 11:00

gakakkad wrote:Why is the US gov't hell bent on selling us a fighter ? Even when they know that f 35 does not full-fill our requirements . It IS A COMBAT RADIUS MERELY 1000 KM . Its air to air capabilities are wholly reliant upon stealth. Its high altitude performance is unimpressive.



It's called the embrace of death. :)

See what they have done to the pakis

Transferring the succulent teat required by the american defense lobby from the US govt breast to the Indian republic breast.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 22 Jun 2011 11:10

so far not much details exist about the JSFs supersonic performance, climb rates, turn rates at supersonic and radar performance (@ 1200 modules its diameter will be smaller than Captor-E but bigger than RBE2AA )..it will be the best radar money can buy in that form factor for sure, will it be enough against Pakfa/J-xx threats time will tell....for most "normal" enemies like iran/noko/africanwarlordistan/TSPaf it will sweep anything aside roughly without a sweat.

there is a arms race in radars, passive sensors and jammers.

it will no doubt have a formidable bvr weapon in the shape of aim-120D just entering service and the future aam they are working on for IOC around 2020. and for sure they will improve the AIM9x in a decade. 360' spherical threat warning and defence system will be there. if they stick a good IRST in there, will be definitely way above the F-solah-50/52/60 it will replace around the world. new families of small munitions for internal carriage are being worked out.

it wont be cheap, but will work brilliantly within Khans overall system-of-systems as a "node in the network". for other less well endowed Munna's it will be better than F-16-52 which is all they want and expect given their lack of resources.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Jun 2011 11:26

^ Singhaji, the JSF already has a topnotch IRST and 360 deg coverage I believe - EO DAS. Probly the best in the business. Anything short of gen 5 (even an Irbis equipped Su-35 ) is going to have trouble against this a/c. AS far as price goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it came in cheaper than Ecanards. Economies of scale are totally in favor of JSF. The USN alone estimates a good 4-500. I'd expect a run of about 12-1500 birds between US and Tier I-III partners.

CM.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby paramyog » 22 Jun 2011 11:34

कितनी बार बतायेँ कि हमे तुम्हारा तोता नही चाहिये...!!
(how many times do v need to tell u, we do not want ur parrot..!!) :rotfl: :rotfl:

http://www.defencetalk.com/india-reject ... fer-31733/

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 22 Jun 2011 11:54

This thread sure seems to encompass quite a wide variety of subjects, lurching from the MRCA to the Mirage to the Tejas over to the F-35 ... heck even the MI-6 and DGSE came up at some point. Nothing wrong with it though - one can spend only so much time comparing the EF and Rafale.

Regarding the inclusion of the F-35:

1. Its not being fielded as a replacement. The US isn't seriously pursuing it and India isn't going entertain a completely new entry at this stage. Frankly speaking, its probably a couple of congressmen in Washington who're trying to see what can be done without having a clear picture about the specifics of the RFP and current stage of the process.

2. Its not surprising that the IAF/MoD hasn't publicly reacted to this news rumor seeing as there's been nothing official from the American side.

3. Regarding capability, its well above the rest no doubt. In terms of kinematics its better than the F-16 and probably close to a loaded Rafale while flying clean(comparable range too). I'm betting the APG-81, DAS and EOTS are a cut above anything available on the Rafale or EF as well, and all that paranoia is there for a reason. They're scheduled to have invested around $60 billion just in development by the time the aircraft reaches IOC. Probably not ideal value for money given the law of diminishing returns but that's still a humongous amount of R&D that has gone into the aircraft.

4. That said this is all a waste of space since - (a) its not available for licensed production, (b) the US will not share software codes, (c) there is limited ToT on offer even to members of the JSF project, and finally of course (d) its going to gain its IOC by 2018-19 and FOC around 2021-22, [all MRCA requirements] by which time the IAF would have deliveries of all 126 aircraft to have concluded.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 22 Jun 2011 12:08

A couple of links of interest:

http://www.defencetalk.com/northrop-completes-f-35-jsf-sensor-testing-35126/
Participating in the Northern Edge exercise for the second time, the AN/APG-81 radar demonstrated robust electronic protection, electronic attack, passive, maritime and experimental modes, and data-linked air and surface tracks to improve legacy fighter situational awareness. The AN/AAQ-37 DAS displayed its spherical situational awareness and target tracking capabilities during its operational environment debut at Northern Edge this year.
"The ability that DAS provides to track multiple aircraft in every direction simultaneously is something that has never been seen in an air combat environment before," said Chuck Brinkman, sector vice president and general manager of Northrop Grumman's Targeting Systems Division.


http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/paris-2011-what-will-the-f-35-cost-30079/
According to some observers, there is unquantifiable value in some of the avionics advances in the Lockheed-Martin F-35.
In a presentation at the Mitchell Centre for Airpower Studies last year, Barry Watts, Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessment, said, “If you look at F-117 and B-2 missions, low observability doesn’t give you [total] invisibility to air defenses, particularly to radar-guided SAMs.
“Those routes [to the target], relative to the defenses that we were aware of, had to be carefully planned prior to the mission,” Watts continued. “This airplane’s going to be able to do that in real time [thanks to] the huge amount of computational power that’s available.”
In another presentation given at the same event, Lt. Gen. David Deptula, former U.S. Air Force Deputy Chief of Staff, A-2, stated, “With the ability to rapidly collect, analyze, transmit, display and share decision-quality information across a wide battlespace rapidly...we create...a value that becomes more important than individual unit cost.
“The F-35 can take a SAR [synthetic aperture radar] map down to a very fine degree, add that SAR image to its ground moving target indicator and display the difference between fixed and moving, land or maritime,” said Deptula. “This is something we have to do today with several separate aircraft and a ground station.”

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 22 Jun 2011 13:27

Jane's Defence Weekly
Subscribe



Lockheed Martin to build plant in Japan if MoD selects F-35
Lockheed Martin plans to establish a manufacturing and assembly plant in Japan should Tokyo select the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter to meet its F-X multirole fighter competition, a company spokesman has told Jane's . The spokesman added that Lockheed Martin remains confident it can fulfill the Japan Air Self-Defence Force (JASDF) delivery requirements, despite what will likely be challenging development and testing phases for the F-35 programme in the next few years




Looks like, that after the recent review of the F-35 program, they are looking at infusion of funds from others.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby UBanerjee » 22 Jun 2011 13:43

Cain Marko wrote:^ Singhaji, the JSF already has a topnotch IRST and 360 deg coverage I believe - EO DAS. Probly the best in the business. Anything short of gen 5 (even an Irbis equipped Su-35 ) is going to have trouble against this a/c. AS far as price goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it came in cheaper than Ecanards. Economies of scale are totally in favor of JSF. The USN alone estimates a good 4-500. I'd expect a run of about 12-1500 birds between US and Tier I-III partners.

CM.


Have they revised the JSF order downwards? Wasn't the order planned for 2300+ (I am purely going by wiki here)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 22 Jun 2011 14:34

2300 - most of the buyers and usa itself do not have the funds situation envisaged in mid 1990s when project started.

1200 would be a good number - 400 for usaf, 300 for usn, 500 for the rest.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 22 Jun 2011 15:21

Singha wrote:2300 - most of the buyers and usa itself do not have the funds situation envisaged in mid 1990s when project started.

1200 would be a good number - 400 for usaf, 300 for usn, 500 for the rest.


I would estimate a figure far larger than 400 for the USAF. The USN, Russia, China as well as most European air forces have been inducting new aircraft all the way through the last two decades. The USAF's major acquisitions on the other hand have been restricted to the F-15E, last of which was delivered about a decade back and the F-22, which was capped at 187 units. They have a massive fleet of 2200+ fighters (incl. A-10) of which only about 300 are expected to be in service past 2030.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 22 Jun 2011 16:12

Media reports are now downplaying the JSF offer.This a tactic to sabotage the MMRCA selection.Earlier too,when India was about to sign the FGFA agreement with Russia,the JSF was again obliquely touted.Wth concern in many quarters about the high cost of modernising our Mirage-2000s,it is incoinceivable that the IAF/GOI would dump all its efforts thus far in choosing a suitable aircraft,a bird in the hand certainly worth more than an aircraft yet to enter production,with many development issues to be sorted out and three times the price of a Gripen!-a JSF in the bush!

The HIndu report today about the new conmmittee comprising eminent members of the defence fraternity,past top brass,AM Krishnamurthy,Adn.Prakash,Manoj Joshi etc.,etc.,to study the nation's defence strategy,why recommendations earlier have not been met, and report back within 6 months is a very welcome step. AS far as the MMRCA eal is oncerned,its slot in the entire IAF's future order of battle should be clearly seen.We already have the SU-30 as the heavy air dominance fighter,to be joined by the GFA stealth fighter,both 250-300 each,plus the LCA at the "light" end.The MMRCA is supposed to be a cost-effective medium sized multi-role fighter hat also helps make up the numbers.The Rolls or Bentley requirement doesn't exist in this deal,as the desi AMCA is supposed to replace all existing medium sized aircraft being upgraded, and fill the "middle/medium" role come 2025.By then we will have far fewer types in service,most probably just 5 (FGFA,AMCA,LCA,MMRCA,and SU-30s) along with whatever UCAVs are developed by then.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 22 Jun 2011 16:34

What can JSF program help in FGFA might be something babooze and khanlets can think now.. like the APG series AESA radar, and raytheon weapon systems integration. Stores integration (including internal bay) area is something I am open with the khans.. and it would make FGFA (desh version) unique like MKI. Try to get those divertless data as well.

Jai FGFA, with API source and integration codes for raytheon products. Now, we can discuss some aspects of technical challenges and collaboration here in a new thread.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 22 Jun 2011 16:47

usaf and eu air forces have been shrinking from their cold war peak of GW1. and they are going to have to continue to shrink. just buying a plane is not enough - there is huge opex, munitions, 30 yr lifecycle of spares, pilot training, salaries, pensions, ground infra and ground crew driven by each additional plane in the inventory.

even the chinese for all their 3000 F7 (alleged) are coalescing into force of 400 heavy fighter and 400 light fighters - but modern ones and backed with awacs and proper munitions and training.

for SDRE yindu we had never got past the 800 mark in recent memory, so number will not increase or decrease but force composition will continue to undergo changes.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 22 Jun 2011 17:01

So, something like 4 to 5 squadrons of MRCA with say couple of AAMs each, all firing in a target clutter composed of swarm of F7, Jxxs and each of these AAM identifying targets independently, and still communicating with AWACs system having individual roles with integrated terminal fire and forget logic, can at the most take out about 150 of them in one sortie.

And.. not enough when we are talking chippanda coming with 3000 F series. Worst case analysis could be thought off.. perhaps let MKI taking the lead role, while MRCA as backup role, when MKI squadrons batched to replenish stores at a nearby NE base.

Still it would take many rounds and perhaps days/weeks to overcome a strong swarm of Fxx chippanda bees.

DSI = 9.7

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 22 Jun 2011 18:55

well the thing is even in ideal conditions wherein a hi-tech force is going to "turkey shoot" a mass of low tech planes your best chance of scoring a mass of hits is in the first "ambush" moment of attack...after that they will all scatter, head low and become very difficult to hunt down in numbers given the limits of your loiter time, afterburner use, geographical limits, operational areas, awacs cover etc.

see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banja_Luka_incident

so yes it would take many a fight to rout and wipe out even a F7 equipped a/c who fields good numbers (Pak, the old China)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 22 Jun 2011 19:14

then, the expensive JSFs against chippanda low tech bees is no use, actually when ultimately when they sting and cross the mountains... not sure how many akash batteries we need.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 22 Jun 2011 21:38

The US sabotages with JSF, Russia with lack of spares (yes, check this from 2002, FGFA will follow this pattern too), France does not sabotage - she just asks for more monies, Pakistan has her Jihadis, China breaks her promises. ....................UK, Italy, Germany, will take the $$ and route India down non-alignment ...................

Long live the AMCA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jun 2011 22:45

Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/paris-2011-thales-brings-consistency-to-rafale-radar-30149/

Thales is “five years ahead of anybody in Europe or the U.S.” in active arrays for airborne radars, according to Jean-Nöel Stock, Thales vice-president UAVs and intelligence, and a former program director for Dassault Rafale airborne systems.

My goodness....such cockiness is NOT good. Secondly, I find that really hard to believe considering that the US is the leader in this field.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jun 2011 23:06

Viv S wrote:2. Its not surprising that the IAF/MoD hasn't publicly reacted to this news rumor seeing as there's been nothing official from the American side.

No plan to buy F-35: Govt
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/no-plan-to-buy-f35-govt/807277/

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Chinmayanand » 23 Jun 2011 01:12

NRao wrote:The US sabotages with JSF, Russia with lack of spares (yes, check this from 2002, FGFA will follow this pattern too), France does not sabotage - she just asks for more monies, Pakistan has her Jihadis, China breaks her promises. ....................UK, Italy, Germany, will take the $$ and route India down non-alignment ...................

Long live the AMCA.

You are wishing long life to something which is not yet born. :mrgreen: there are so many ifs , hows and whens.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 23 Jun 2011 02:19

Revolutionary new generation HUD for the rafale (several colors, 3D and complex graphic display) :

Video demo :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjge9h ... rique_news


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