India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Jun 2011 03:20

^^ apart from "left engine flame out"

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 23 Jun 2011 03:30

Rakesh wrote:Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-ne ... dar-30149/

Thales is “five years ahead of anybody in Europe or the U.S.” in active arrays for airborne radars, according to Jean-Nöel Stock, Thales vice-president UAVs and intelligence, and a former program director for Dassault Rafale airborne systems.
My goodness....such cockiness is NOT good. Secondly, I find that really hard to believe considering that the US is the leader in this field.

Ahead of what is publicly known/available in the field - i.e. the handicapped radar being supplied in the teens

or French Math
(F)16 + 5 = 21 < (F-)22 ----> i.e. Rafale is only tiny bit short of F-22

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Jun 2011 03:51

^^^ It's a business pitch at an airshow. I wouldn't care too much about it.

raajneesh · Post by **raajneesh** » 23 Jun 2011 03:59

I agree with that poor French guy. we Indians should learn one thing from him - big mouth marketting. We need that, don't we? come on, we can do better than him, when our time comes.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jun 2011 04:11

India averse to inking military pacts with U.S.

.........................

While the U.S. was denied a strategic foothold in the IAF's offensive capabilities segment, it could face continued stonewalling with respect to three military pacts — Logistics Sharing Agreement (LSA), Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA).

The Indian attitude a month ahead of the strategic dialogue between External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is to keep the issue away from the main agenda.

No hidden objective

The U.S. argues that there is no hidden aim behind the LSA. It is an inter-bank type of clearing arrangement — there will be periodical settlement of accounts for the use of each other's facilities.

For instance, Indian naval ships have had 45 refuellings from the U.S. ships in the Gulf of Aden. Under the LSA, payments need not be made each time. The expenses could be adjusted against the money owed to India if U.S. ships came calling here.

But the Indian leadership feels that the LSA will give the impression of a strategic agreement with the Pentagon in military operations.

After the Defence-Secretary level Defence Policy Group (DPG) meeting in Washington earlier this year, both sides agreed to work towards a more “mature arrangement.'' But there was no “question of a blanket agreement,'' said the official sources.

India confronts a technical issue in signing the CISMOA, though officials feel it sounds heavier than it is. They also feel that interoperability, as argued by the U.S., need not be dependent on signing the CISMOA.

The communication will be encrypted and no other algorithm can be used on the system. During joint exercises, U.S. personnel sit on Indian ships with their own equipment.

But on aircraft there is no space for two or three different kinds of equipment.

The Navy and the Air Force have said they had no problems either way but politically this remains a sensitive issue though officials say it is not as heavy as it sounds.

India also has reservations on the third military agreement sought by the U.S. — BECA. The U.S. says the pact will enable C-130 and C-17 planes to fly close to the ground.

This entails installation of ground sensors, which none in the security establishment, except the Defence Research & Development Organisation is keen on.

raajneesh · Post by **raajneesh** » 23 Jun 2011 04:20

^^ Quite contrary to public notion, I think it is USA who is averse to closer high-technology relationship with India. They are still paranoid of India. That's why all this LMAO, CISMAO thing comes up.

With Russians, there hasn't been such hypocrisy in high-tech collaboration.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 23 Jun 2011 05:48

Avid wrote:
or French Math
(F)16 + 5 = 21 < (F-)22 ----> i.e. Rafale is only tiny bit short of F-22

If only

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 23 Jun 2011 08:28

Eurofighter confirm 2015 as entry date for aesa

So CAPTOR-E radar is still in development and Indian order will only fast track its progress

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 23 Jun 2011 15:46

Eurofighter, Dassault Submit Revised Offset Bids, Indian MMRCA Contest Enters Final Round
Defensenews

the updated offset bids included individual MoUs with third part equipment providers which supply critical equipment such as engine, avionics and other critical systems. Earlier offset propsal submitted had only offset commitments on the part of the bidders who are essentially platform integrators

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 24 Jun 2011 00:53

Livefist: Eurofighter Unveils Future Roadmap For Typhoon

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 24 Jun 2011 02:26

the MMRCA contest will won by a company who really needs this contract, pure and simple.
Euro consortium is leaving nothing for a chance. I won't be surprised if they are one who win in the end.
rafale is fine, but french consider themselves to be little superior and EURO consortium reall really need this contract. they would give us much more TOT as compared to Rafale.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Jun 2011 03:46

^^What about Germans? No guns for Indian Armed forces on the pretext of Gujarat and Kashmir........ Hmmmmmmm and now these krauts are licking their own spit by begging us to buy their jet, sending angela merkel, I would rather have French superiority anyday!

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 24 Jun 2011 04:22

Old Tornado jets no crutch for Typhoon in Libya - pilot

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Jun 2011 04:25

Manish_Sharma wrote:^^What about Germans? No guns for Indian Armed forces on the pretext of Gujarat and Kashmir........ Hmmmmmmm and now these krauts are licking their own spit by begging us to buy their jet, sending angela merkel, I would rather have French superiority anyday!

Well the fact that four countries are part of the Eurofighter means that no single country needs to listen to some lobbies shouting about "hooman rights", etc.

If somebody in Germany starts shouting about that, the German Government can go ahead a plead helplessness, as there are other partners in the sales game as well (UK, Italy, Spain). So no single partner can manage to sabotage the sales, for the other three would think differently about it. If one partner becomes unsympathetic to India for some reason, India would have other partners to lobby to.

If India goes to war with some country, that country cannot simply manage to lobby a single Eurofighter partner, and hope to get deliveries scuttled.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Jun 2011 05:11

I think it was german govt. that refused to sell the guns......... will look up the news and post link.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Jun 2011 05:21

RajeshA wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:^^What about Germans? No guns for Indian Armed forces on the pretext of Gujarat and Kashmir........ Hmmmmmmm and now these krauts are licking their own spit by begging us to buy their jet, sending angela merkel, I would rather have French superiority anyday!
Well the fact that four countries are part of the Eurofighter means that no single country needs to listen to some lobbies shouting about "hooman rights", etc.

If somebody in Germany starts shouting about that, the German Government can go ahead a plead helplessness, as there are other partners in the sales game as well (UK, Italy, Spain). So no single partner can manage to sabotage the sales, for the other three would think differently about it. If one partner becomes unsympathetic to India for some reason, India would have other partners to lobby to.

If India goes to war with some country, that country cannot simply manage to lobby a single Eurofighter partner, and hope to get deliveries scuttled.

Unfortunately keeping a plane operational means that ALL the parts must work. So if any of these 4 nations could be persuaded to stop providing spares, it would be a problem. So an adversary succeeds by persuading any of the 4 countries. Also remember that economy may be an adversary too.

Manish_Sharma wrote:I think it was german govt. that refused to sell the guns......... will look up the news and post link.

It was.

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 24 Jun 2011 07:53

One noob point....the typhoon was originally planned to operate as an Air-Superiority fighter to take on the Su- 27 class Soviet Fighters over the European Sky....Now the PLAAF consisists of lot of Su-27 and its copy J10...which they are planning to introduce in the mass scale....
If the above points are correct then does it not make sense the we select EF...to counter the New generation PLAAF platforms over the Tibetian Airspace.....Now there is hell lot of difference btwn Tibet and Eastern Europe....probably Guuru's can explain....

paramyog · Post by **paramyog** » 24 Jun 2011 13:51

Ask the Khan..!!

F-35 नही चाहिये.. F-22 देता हो तो बता..वो भी discount समेत..!!
(..F-35 not needed...if you can offer F-22, tell us, and along with discount..!!)

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 24 Jun 2011 14:16

Got this from LiveFist:

Anyone knows about it?

Commander Nigel ‘Sharkey’ Ward, decorated for flying Harrier jump jets during the Falklands war, said:‘The Typhoon is an astronomically expensive aircraft that is ill-suited to any role outside UK airspace.
‘It is essentially a very expensive RAF sacred cow.’

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 24 Jun 2011 14:47

Hi all,
This is my first post at BR. I think this news piece slipped through the radar lately..

US-India ties in primary colours

"An imminent decision by the Nuclear Supply Group [NSG] at its forthcoming plenary at The Hague next week to approve new guidelines barring transfer of enrichment and reprocessing technology and equipment [EPR] to India has forced the government in Delhi to take the nation into confidence that the United States has committed a grave breach of trust with the country. The dark cloud looming on the horizon presaging squalls at some indeterminate future date in the India-US relationship"

http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2 ... y-colours/

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 24 Jun 2011 14:57

US-India ties in primary colours

An imminent decision by the Nuclear Supply Group [NSG] at its forthcoming plenary at The Hague next week to approve new guidelines barring transfer of enrichment and reprocessing technology and equipment [EPR] to India has forced the government in Delhi to take the nation into confidence that the United States has committed a grave breach of trust with the country. The dark cloud looming on the horizon presaging squalls at some indeterminate future date in the India-US relationship, which was obvious to careful observers for some time already, has indeed turned out to be real and unavoidable. For the uninitiated, the ‘breaking news’ comes as an absolute stunner as it exposes the India-US strategic partnership to be in actuality an empty drum. For the pro-American lobby in Delhi circles, this poses an acute dilemma as they won’t know what to say - whether to laugh it away or sit down on the floor and cry.

The US’ perfidy is so obvious. Having entered into a civil nuclear cooperation agreement with India in 2008, which provides for a ‘clean waiver’ for EPR transfer to India, US immediately began undercutting the provision by prompting the NSG to introduce new guidelines that will effectively reinstate the previous embargo. The sordid story and the diplomatic exchanges thereof speaks volumes about the contrived nature of Barack Obama’s claim that he regarded India as the US’s “indispensable partner in the 21st centruy”. In sum, what the US wants is to tap into the vast Indian market for lucrative business and to cajole India to be a collaborator in its containment strategy toward China, which is, after all, what the strategic partnership is all about.

India could well be paying the price for its dogged refusal to become part of the US’ containment strategy toward China. To ‘insiders’ and perceptive outside observers alike in Delhi, many recent developments were unmistakably suggesting for a while already that contrary to the soap operas of the US state department singing songs of glory about the US’ partnership with India, things were not exactly going well - and were getting to be more and more problematic. Delhi was getting to be wiser and wiser about the US strategies toward India but indeed wouldn’t feel the urge to contradict the US’ public diplomacy, which, therefore, misled the public perceptions. Indian diplomacy works in strange ways - and has quietly done an extraordinary amount of ‘new thinking’ as to how to steer the country ahead in a complicated regional and international milieu.

But to begin with, let us draw the balance sheet. One, India has refused to join a new avaatr of the US’ 6-year old fanciful idea of an alliance of Asian democracies against China (which South Block mandarins almost signed up for in 2005). Two, in the past couple of years, India began steadily distancing itself from the US and started working on the normalisation of relations with China on a bilateral track (against stiff opposition bordering on sabotage by sections within the Indian establishment - often hand in glove with the media - which are hopelessly, crudely wedded to the past and simply lack the intellectual capacity or the sophistication to comprehend the spirit of our times.)

Three, in the more recent past, India point blank refused to play ball with the US to pile pressure on Pakistan. Four, Indian policymakers instead opened the track of dialogue with Pakistan with primacy, again, placed on bilateralism. Five, Indian rhetoric against Pakistan (and China) has become ‘nil. (Refer to the proceedings of the recent Shangri-La conference in Singapore.)

Six, India finally took a measured step toward seeking membership of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation whose main agenda is to check the expansion and consolidation of US/Nato military presence int he region. Seven, India reworked its Afghan policies and has all but delinked from the US strategies. Eight, India bluntly refused to be drawn into the propagandistic exercises of the Rana trial at Chicago despite US urgings, directly or indirectly, to have an old-fashioned bash at the Pakistani security establishment. (Sections of our media fell into the trap.)

Nine, India has distanced itself from the US game plan to corner the regime of Mahinda Rajapaksa in Sri Lanka. Ten, Indian policy in Nepal is shifting gear with greater accent on regional stability rather than the ‘new great game’.

Eleven, India overlooked the bids by Boeing and Lockheed in the MMRCA tender. Twelve, India has kept an independent stance in the UN Security Council on the issues of LIbya and Syria. Thirteen, India abstained at the IAEA vote on Syria. Fourteen, India turned down the US proposal to have a new format of strategic dialogue known as ‘two-plus-two’ (involving defence ministers in addition to foreign ministers). Fifteen, India finds it difficult to accede the request of the US companies exporting nuclear reactors to amend its Nuclear Liability law to suit exactly their business needs.

So, is this the end of the road for US-India ties? Far from it. There is a broad consensus in favour of expanding and deepening ties with the US, as our country moves into a higher trajectory of growth and it has needs of high technology for the modernisation of its economy, its society and human resources and its military. Didn’t India recently place one of its biggest orders for procurement of weapons from US - handing over a highly lucrative 4.1 billion dollar order to Boeing which is estimated to generate around 25000 jobs in the US and would allow a profit margin of around 2 billion dollars?

Trade is flourishing. Only yesterday, Robert Blake, US assistant secretary of state, who came all the way to Kolkatta to mark America’s high expectations from CM Mamata Bannerjee and Finance Minister Amit Mitra said at a speech, “A quick look at the data reveals a trade relationship that is accelerating, mutually beneficial and relatively balanced.” Washington cannot complain. At a time when World Bank forecasts a meagre 2.6 percent growth for US economy through 2013, Indian market is becoming a veritable milch cow it can’t do without.

Blake said: “2010 broke records for US-India trade in goods with US exports to India up 17%… [and] moved India up two notches to become our 12th largest trading partner.” He was thrilled that Indian investment in US compounded rapidly to establish India’s position as the “7th fastest-growing source of investment in the US.” He frankly admitted, “India’s market offers tremendous opportunity to US exporters of goods and services.”

In sum, what is happening is a certain removal of the blinkers on the US-India relationship. From the Indian side, the policymaker almost completely sequestered himself from the needless excitement of the “pro-American” lobby and sundry other fatcats who stand to gain out of the US-India tango, as well as the US’ own propaganda machinery, which incessantly churns out the spin about the relationship being a rare thing in contemporary global politics. From the US propaganda, it may appear the Indian policymaker is being passively led by the skillful American master who knows the ways of the poodles.

But in reality, both Delhi and Washington know - as WikiLeaks cables reveal - that it is just not in India’s DNA (to borrow a memorable phrase from the People’s Daily) to be a poodle. The rupture that threatens to break out next week could well throw the entire US-India nuclear deal into a spin, but it has also brought out into the open the real alchemy of the US-India relationship as a hard-nosed, selective partnership based on mutual advantage. It stands out in primary colours. Sans misleading euphoria, sans false pretensions, sans unrealistic expectations.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 24 Jun 2011 15:13

mallikarjun wrote:Hi all,
This is my first post at BR. I think this news piece slipped through the radar lately..

Welcome to BRF. The news hasn't slipped through, it's being discussed in the Indian Nuclear Discussion thread. Since American aircrafts have not been shortlisted, this would be OT on this thread unless it concentrates on French or the Eurofighter member countries.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2011 15:17

Mallikarjun,

welcome.

Try it in this thread:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3720

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 24 Jun 2011 15:44

Thanks for the warm welcome. Could n't help that previous post coz now a days I am just watching everything through the MMRCA glasses.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 24 Jun 2011 15:44

Manish_Sharma wrote:I think it was german govt. that refused to sell the guns......... will look up the news and post link.

Yups it was Germany indeed. And the other 'Arundhoti Roy' country was Austria.

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 24 Jun 2011 15:53

Asit P wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:I think it was german govt. that refused to sell the guns......... will look up the news and post link.
Yups it was Germany indeed. And the other 'Arundhoti Roy' country was Austria.

To add to it one green/left German MP Asked the Govt, not to offer typhoon to India to prevent "arms race" in the region.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Jun 2011 18:27

mallikarjun wrote:To add to it one green/left German MP Asked the Govt, not to offer typhoon to India to prevent "arms race" in the region.

That was the President of the Green Party of Germany, Claudia Roth!

I wrote her a letter emphasizing her misreading of the situation and ethics.

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 25 Jun 2011 02:42

RajeshA wrote:
mallikarjun wrote:To add to it one green/left German MP Asked the Govt, not to offer typhoon to India to prevent "arms race" in the region.
That was the President of the Green Party of Germany, Claudia Roth!

I wrote her a letter emphasizing her misreading of the situation and ethics.

Rajesh any luck getting reply from her?

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 25 Jun 2011 04:00

Paris airshow: eurofighter update

http://fb.me/141s2Zdd5

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 Jun 2011 04:44

New helmet to give Typhoon pilots killer look
Reuters UK

British RAF pilots tested the first helmets last summer,and while they are not being used in Libya -- where the Typhoon has flown its first combat missions -- analysts believe the conflict is speeding up their roll-out.

Built by Britain's BAE Systems specifically for Typhoon jets, the Striker helmets are tailored to each of the pilots, who have their heads scanned to ensure a perfect fit.

"The helmet gives you the edge in a dogfight; the ability to see a target and lock onto it," BAE test pilot Nat Makepeace told Reuters, adding that the helmet also improved situational awareness, crucial to fighter pilots.

So far 50 helmets have been delivered to the air forces of Italy, Germany, Spain and UK, with a delivery rate of about eight per month, Eurofighter spokesman Marco-Valerio Bonelli told Reuters. In the UK, they will be operational by the end of the year.

The helmets work by optically tracking the pilot's head movements and projecting flight data and target information onto the visor instead of the traditional head-up display (HUD).

Without the helmet, pilots have to point the nose of their jet towards the target until they can see it in the HUD. With it, they can aim at enemy jets anywhere in the sky around them.

Costing about 250,000 pounds apiece, the helmets will be deployed in all Typhoons, of which Eurofighter has delivered 278 to six air forces and has orders for 429 more.

The Typhoon is built by BAE, Italy's Finmeccanica and European aerospace and defence firm EADS.

Eurofighter puts the cost of a jet at 59 million euros (52.4 million pounds), although the UK's Committee of Public Accounts has estimated the price per plane at 126 million pounds ($202 million), based on overall costs.

Military analysts believe the helmet-mounted displays will become standard equipment for all new fighter jets.

"The future of air combat is unmanned flight, but in this last generation of manned flight, these helmets will be the only way to interface pilots with their weapons systems," Philip Stonor, former UK deputy defence attache in Paris, told Reuters.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter -- which will be the world's most advanced warplane when it goes into service later this decade -- has dropped the HUD altogether and replaced it with a helmet-mounted display connected to cameras on the outside of the jet that let the pilot literally look through the aircraft.

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 25 Jun 2011 05:08

any video links for paris airshow 2011 flying displays of refale or eurofighter???

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 25 Jun 2011 05:34

I have to admit, that is the most ugliest conformal tank i ever seen on any fighter upgrade.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/06/eu ... p-for.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2011 05:56

Seriously, I think India should wait till 2020 to select the MMRCA.

This EF puppy needs to grow.

Who knows, IAF may find that the conformal tank has degraded the performance of the EF!!!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Jun 2011 08:12

Rakesh wrote:
Viv S wrote:2. Its not surprising that the IAF/MoD hasn't publicly reacted to this ~~news~~ rumor seeing as there's been nothing official from the American side.
No plan to buy F-35: Govt
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/no ... vt/807277/

I'm sorry I should been more clear - I was referring to a response for the US companies/govt. involved not the media. Of course the government will not ignore a clarification requested by a prominent media outlet.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Jun 2011 08:21

Regarding Typhoons HMS:

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/id ... 4?irpc=932

But like the F-35 itself, developed by Lockheed Martin Corp, the new helmet has suffered technical problems, including with night vision and latency -- the delay between a pilot's head movement and the movement of the screen image.

There has even been talk of bringing the HUD back.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jun 2011 08:50

I see that most of the posts are concentrating on the EF as a platform of choice for the IAF. So just to balance it:

http://www.military.com/video/aircraft/ ... 651546001/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvOTBvJJw4E

From what I know of the procurement process (having been involved in many a Govt. tender) that normally the technical considerations will never get modified to reflect anything that is announced in a product between the end of the tech evaluation and the conclusion of the contract.)

Like someone said changes to a fighter could not only be positive for the product but also negatively effect other parameters which have already been demonstrated and evaluated)

Here is one of the EF at the Paris Airshow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZNRvVx6PdU

Personally, between the two, I hope the one that suits the IAF's requirement most, with the minimum of risk (sanctions, maintainability etc.) and reasonable ToT wins.

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 25 Jun 2011 10:43

"Personally, between the two, I hope the one that suits the IAF's requirement most, with the minimum of risk (sanctions, maintainability etc.) and reasonable ToT wins.""

That is the best outcome every indian can wish for now at the moment..Sooner the better though...

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Jun 2011 11:31

Manish_Sharma wrote:Regarding Typhoons HMS:

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/id ... 4?irpc=932

But like the F-35 itself, developed by Lockheed Martin Corp, the new helmet has suffered technical problems, including with night vision and latency -- the delay between a pilot's head movement and the movement of the screen image.

There has even been talk of bringing the HUD back.

How does the F-35's problems with its HMDS relate to the Eurofighter's HMSS?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Jun 2011 11:35

NRao wrote:Who knows, IAF may find that the conformal tank has degraded the performance of the EF!!!

It may marginally degrade performance but it will create less drag than a 1000L drop tank let alone a 2000L tank, while still carrying a considerable 1500L of fuel.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 25 Jun 2011 11:35

^^Yeah, I think Manish you have misread the article - the problems referred to are with the f35's HMS not the Typhoon's.