India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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NRao
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by NRao »

SaiK wrote:Nope... unkill has failed on many aspects.. His anti IeD is all based on low tech now-a-days, and the billions have been wasted.. all c/o thank you sniffing dog!.
Will get back on the IDE front.

BUT, without Billions one will be on the sidelines only - AKA Russians. Brains yes, funds no.

There are a few surprises on this front in particular
That laser weapon is not matured yet. unkill has to get low tech on few things too. /OT
Starter:

Tactical laser weapons technology entering its most difficult phase
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

remember APG-77 that the raptor uses, could fry enemy electronics with high power jamming. I am not sure, how much of the AESA feature these two Europeans have developed yet. And, for communications, video transfers, etc, the APG uses the multi role AESA modules.

The russkies went on to a different route with Zhuk/ae? with dedicated features and I have not read that it combines other features included in that for communications, transfers, jamming, etc.

Wondering why not use some of the receiver modules for passive mode scanning and tracking.? I am sure raptor must be doing it although a dedicated one that I am aware of.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by VishalJ »

Pls forgive me if this has been posted before, the thread is moving at a fast pace & i have been away for the past ~10 days.

Katrina in Black

Image Image
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Kartik »

arthuro wrote:
"Wells: Exactly. If they’ve got money on the table to say we need this capability and this number of aircraft in this time frame, then those requirements would be dealt with, together with those of the existing partner nations."
Anyone who comes with money and a development requirement will get what it wants. That's absolutely not specific to the Typhoon program.
"Wells: The immediate impact is that we will have a large set of operational requirements that we would need to fulfill in a pretty short time span. Currently, the only official future upgrade that is currently being funded is Meteor. There are indications that there will be additional new weapons, but funding is a problem."
It looks than behind the marketed partnership it is a way to pass the upgrade bill to the indians....
I agree with you Arthuro. There is no great shakes in developing upgrades IF India has to pay for it. Any damn OEM will do that.

Compare this situation to Saab's Gripen NG which was being developed entirely on company and Flygvapnet funds to MRCA offered specifications, or Dassault's Rafale, neither requires extensive funding AFTER the bloody deal had been signed to bring them to the RFP specifications itself !! This is ridiculous since it is most likely not included in the sticker price (fly-away costs or whatever) that EADS must be mentioning in its pricing submission. And then have Indian defence firms work on those upgrades so that money spent by EADS on offset contracts eventually end up becoming funding for the Typhoon which can then be marketed to everyone else, including a Wahabi fanatic Saudi kingdom that is quite close to our biggest nuisance neighbour.

But presenting a Typhoon with great air-to-air capabilities and no-so-great A2G capabilities as an opportunity for India to get "upto speed" and gain technology transfer can possibly be viewed in 2 different ways.

1) Optimistic- It actually is an opportunity to pick up technology and knowledge that will be useful for the AURA UCAV and AMCA 5th gen fighter. And being a nation that may have funded these "upgrades" (which ideally should have been part of the baseline capabilities since its not a truly capable 4.5 gen multirole fighter if it can only drop LGBs), India should get IP rights to them so as to be able to install them as is on their own platforms.

This isn't a bad way in which to do things if funding is not a critical issue, but technology restrictions/denial or lack of advanced technology/knowhow are. This is the way in which South Korea went about learning how to do things- first take up Western platforms, take extensive help, then come up with variants with handholding and by the third iteration, you're pretty much on your own. For e.g the Surion helicopter or the T-50 (followed on from building the KF-16) which will lead on now to the K-FX.

2) Pessimistic- This is just a marketing gimmick. A half-baked product that has apparent funding issues that prevent A2G capabilities to be developed optimally is being presented as an opportunity, despite being the costliest in the entire competition.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Kartik »

Vishal Jolapara wrote:Pls forgive me if this has been posted before, the thread is moving at a fast pace & i have been away for the past ~10 days.

Katrina in Black
absolutely stunning !
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Kartik wrote: 2) Pessimistic- This is just a marketing gimmick. A half-baked product that has apparent funding issues that prevent A2G capabilities to be developed optimally is being presented as an opportunity, despite being the costliest in the entire competition.
Kartik to me this seems more like "Realistic" than "pessimistic" view. If we are buying Typhoon less a2g capable, carrying less CFTs still pay more/equal to Rafale price, then pay more to bring it at par with Rafale then it seems like ......... unwise to go with them.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by siddharth »

Katrina in Black

Mean machine 8) Are they commemorating a special milestone? I see a number painted on the sides of the aircraft. Any idea what it means?
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Viv S »

siddharth wrote:Katrina in Black

Mean machine 8) Are they commemorating a special milestone? I see a number painted on the sides of the aircraft. Any idea what it means?
30,000 hours flown.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

aah the decimal comma! was pretty interesting to see the three zeros after decimal point, for about 5 minutes. Thanks for the clarity now.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

Avionics Magazine has done an excellent article of Katrina... see link below.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/59102760/Avio ... at-2011-07
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Manish_Sharma »

nitinr wrote: Sorry. It was never a denial for army. It was denial to sell guns directly to certain states. Then it was planned to import guns through NSG and re distribute to these states.

Just posting the link because this argument had been stated on every page of this thread.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=14431
Doesn't make it any better. Still they denied guns to certain Indian states.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

nitinr wrote: Sorry. It was never a denial for army. It was denial to sell guns directly to certain states. Then it was planned to import guns through NSG and re distribute to these states.
Manish_Sharma wrote: Doesn't make it any better. Still they denied guns to certain Indian states.
+1000 Manish Sharma, Uropeans love Porkis and might easily decide to take their side one day and stop us cold in our tracks. even if one of the lesser power decide to turn the screws on us, we instanly gain 100+ hangar queens. also these countries are paranoid about Jehadi attacks on their homeland, will not hesitate to cut a deal with "Good Taliban" and their overlords to screw Injuns. Risk of disruptions is rather high for EF2K (almost like uncle)
Nitinr: the DENIAL was for India, impacts our national security by weakening the security posture of a critical state. These are the same guys who ferry Taliban around to Europe for discussion and shower aid / weapons / lavish praise on the TSP.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by sanjeevpunj »

Vishal Jolapara wrote:Pls forgive me if this has been posted before, the thread is moving at a fast pace & i have been away for the past ~10 days.

Katrina in Black

Image Image
Aweome images.Would love to see one of these in a trial dogfight with the Amereekan F-16.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Singha »

rafale display at paris airshow is now linked from livefist.

seems to be a more aggressive all-out show than in aeroindia2011...kind of like what EF did in AI.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Thanks Singha. Fabulous!
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by shukla »

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

technical or fuel problems!? those Rafales in the video appear to be loaded with drop tanks.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by GeorgeWelch »

SaiK wrote:technical or fuel problems!? those Rafales in the video appear to be loaded with drop tanks.
French planes seem to do it quite frequently for whatever reason

http://alert5.com/?s=malta
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Viv S »

Shrinivasan wrote:Risk of disruptions is rather high for EF2K (almost like uncle)
Don't know that the French have a particularly good record in that regard either. I am sure Gaddafi was expecting a very different sort of after sales support from France after awarding Dassault a contract to refit his air force's Mirage F1s in 2007.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

that alert5 link is not good.. that would seriously hamper operational readiness.

And, we are not a super power to handle logistics nightmare.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

Viv S wrote:Don't know that the French have a particularly good record in that regard either. I am sure Gaddafi was expecting a very different sort of after sales support from France after awarding Dassault a contract to refit his air force's Mirage F1s in 2007.
India and France don't have the same reln as France and Libya... he was already an international Pariyah... as a Littoral state, they knew what happens in Libya will impact them... French knew they had to decide soon, which way they wanna lean. Also French caught the drift pretty early about which way the wind was blowing WRT Libya... so when the UN resolution came they were ready. also the french firgured that Libyan ops would be good advert for French gear... whichever side prevails, they'll be customers for France, forever!!!
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Singha »

*cough cough* atleast the rafales made it back . I seem to recall in the few days that USAF was active over libya they lost a F-15E to engine failure (surprising considering it has two proven engines) and the pilots were separately rescued by a CSAR team.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Singha wrote:I seem to recall in the few days that USAF was active over libya they lost a F-15E to engine failure
:?:

The USAF has been active from the beginning and is STILL active.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/ ... ns-063011/
Air Force and Navy aircraft are still flying hundreds of strike missions over Libya . . . “As of today, and since 31 March, the U.S. has flown a total of 3,475 sorties in support of OUP. Of those, 801 were strike sorties, 132 of which actually dropped ordnance.”
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Singha »

interesting - so Obama is downplaying the us contrib to keep the war weary public happy it seems...

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/06/d ... ns-063011/
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by UBanerjee »

Singha wrote:interesting - so Obama is downplaying the us contrib to keep the war weary public happy it seems...
Oh yeah. :wink:
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by mallikarjun »

I was watching typhoon and rafale performance at Paris 2011. have to tell you to the disappointment of Katrina fans that as an aam aadmi, EADS will walk away with this MMRCA deal. Its all about EJ 200 Vs M88. Rafale 30000 hours trick is good but it looks very clumsy to the naked eye. I dont think IAF will settle for yet another underpowered aircraft. Strongly believe it wil go for a power pack and mold it to its needs.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Neshant »

How is it possible that US military can keep bombing away in Libya even after Congress voted against war in Libya?

As per the US constitution, Congressional approval for war is required after 90 days of hostilities. Approval has been rejected by 230+ votes. Yet war continues ?

The US constitution is truly turning into a piece of toilet paper - violated whenever its convenient. Seems corporate lobbyists for oil companies and banking goons have grown so powerful even Congress is no obsticle.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Singha »

I suppose the US is using the fig leaf of providing logistical, esm, ecm, sead support only as part of its nato commitments. predators being unmanned dont raise hackles.

the real deal is how many F16/F15/B1b are roaming around on strike sorties ? no word on any CVN being involved in ops.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

Most people are creatures of habit and maasans have an organized setup that enhances the habitual behavior, so Obama understands these better I suppose. Btw, gen petraeus is now to head CIA... the whole game of strategy and military power can not be won unless it is engaged in some sort of conflict[mad theory of course]. Their doctrine will suffer seriously on a conventional war and please note the recent fear against chippanda, where the massive ways their new commie force is taking shape has increased the fear factor by 10 folds, but they have no way to get inroads against the chips.

If the maasan forces are not engaged, they are vulnerable to Eu giants on the sales of military hardware as well, just for referring to use of such equipment in recent war. It has a plus point, and France did not lose a second in ops against libya, as IAF was watching the whole thing.

It is going to be tough road ahead for the maasan teens.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by siddharth »

Viv S wrote:
siddharth wrote:Katrina in Black

Mean machine 8) Are they commemorating a special milestone? I see a number painted on the sides of the aircraft. Any idea what it means?
30,000 hours flown.
Thanks Viv.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by UBanerjee »

Neshant wrote:How is it possible that US military can keep bombing away in Libya even after Congress voted against war in Libya?

As per the US constitution, Congressional approval for war is required after 90 days of hostilities. Approval has been rejected by 230+ votes. Yet war continues ?

The US constitution is truly turning into a piece of toilet paper - violated whenever its convenient. Seems corporate lobbyists for oil companies and banking goons have grown so powerful even Congress is no obsticle.
Not per the constitution, but the War Powers Act. Which is being violated for sure. Many lawmakers have mentioned it, but no one is bold enough to cut funding, which was the real test.

Obama holds the WPA in such contempt he basically ignored Congress demands for full detailed briefings (required by the act for approval).
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

^^spoken like a true yanked journo from capital DC. :D
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

Neshant wrote:How is it possible that US military can keep bombing away in Libya even after Congress voted against war in Libya?
Even though It is not publicly stated, US is legally hiding behind the fact that It is a NATO led operation in which US platforms (not US forces) are deployed as part of NATO operations.
This sort of backfired when war-mongering repubs took Ombaba to task for leading from upfront in the Libyan conflict and sort of spewed out a rhetoric about US being led by other blah blah blah... it is like a high stakes tight rope walk... anytime ombaba can fall down.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by nitish »

Apologies if posted earlier
U.K., France Fine-tune Libyan Air Ops

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 0Air%20Ops
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by shukla »

Europe asks Korea to join Eurofighter program
A multination consortium in Europe has invited Korea to join its high-end jet production project in an apparent attempt to win what would be Korea’s biggest arms-procurement deal. The move came following Seoul’s announcement that it would purchase 60 advanced fighter aircraft in line with its push to shift the country’s military posture from passive defense to proactive deterrence with a projected budget of up to 10 trillion won ($8.96 billion).

“We welcome the Korean industry to participate as EADS’s full member,” Erwin Obermeier, a senior advisor of export projects at EADS, said at the International Conference for Air and Space Power held downtown Seoul last week. “It’ll share all the benefits, knowledge and technologies of Eurofighters.”

EADS, or European Aeronautic Defense and Space, is a multi-national consortium from Germany, UK, Spain and Italy.

The largest aerospace and defense contractor in Europe reportedly offered a better deal in Korea’s last jet acquisition project in 2008 than its American competitor Boeing, but lost the bid due largely to political decisions. Obermeier underlined that EADS’s Eurofighter program will offer a unique potential for the Korean industry to access the global market.

“The Eurofighter program is jointly owned, developed, produced, and delivered by all four European companies,” he said, suggesting that Korea will also have much to benefit by joining the consortium. He said if Korea chooses EADS’s Eurofighter Typhoon, which can fly at a maximum supercruise speed of Mach 2, his company will offer Korea the chance to assemble and partly manufacture the advanced jets in Korea.

“The first 10 deliveries will be assembled in Europe, but the next 24 will be built with components manufactured in Korea,” he said, adding that the remainder will be assembled here. He also downplayed concerns over compatibility, saying all Korean fighters and Eurofighters are built to be inter-operable in the NATO environment.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Apologies if posted earlier, but a nice article on the pros and cons of the euro-canards, and the scepticism about the JSF program

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ky&next=20
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Gurneesh »

If 60 planes for Korea will cost 8.9 bill USD, then how come 124 for india will only cost 11 - 12 bill ??
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Shrinivasan »

Gurneesh wrote:If 60 planes for Korea will cost 8.9 bill USD, then how come 124 for india will only cost 11 - 12 bill ??
Economy of scale!!!
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by arthuro »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ_Y7P4bBa8

Impressive video of a AASM "HAMMER" (laser variant) test firing against a mobile high of bore sight target.

For the record :
Successful firing test of AASM with laser terminal guidance offering 1-meter accuracy, against a high-speed moving target

Paris, May 2, 2011 – On Thursday, April 21, French defense procurement agency DGA successfully performed a demonstration firing test of the AASM modular air-to-ground weapon against a land target moving at high speed.

The test was carried out at the DGA’s missile test range in Biscarosse by a production Rafale fighter deployed by the DGA’s flight-test center in Cazaux. The AASM was fired from an extreme off-axis angle (90°) at a range exceeding 15 kilometers.

The impact was at a very low angle, against a moving target represented by a laser spot generated by a ground illuminator mounted on a turret, to simulate a vehicle moving at a speed of 80 km/h.

Using its algorithms for detection and slaving of the trajectory to the laser spot, plus its excellent maneuverability, the AASM hit its target to within less than one meter.

This firing test demonstrates the AASM Laser’s ability to offer 1-meter accuracy against high-speed, agile land or maritime targets. Coupling this performance with its standoff firing capability, the AASM is unrivaled in the market for tactical air-to-ground weapons. It perfectly meets the precision and opportunity strike requirements highlighted by recent operations.

The inertial/GPS/laser-guided version of the AASM is fitted with a semi-active laser seeker, and features algorithms to track fixed or highly mobile targets during the terminal phase. It will enhance the operational flexibility already offered by the AASM family, including two versions that have been qualified for firing by the Rafale multirole fighter: inertial/GPS and inertial/GPS/infrared.

The laser terminal guidance version of the AASM will enter volume production for the French air force and navy starting at the end of 2012.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by shukla »

Israel, Germany developing smart missile for Eurofighter.
The new missile is unique in its ability to hit targets by using a GPS satellite guidance system, or alternatively with electro-optical guidance – meaning that the pilot or navigator can direct the missile towards its target by watching live video footage as the missile speeds towards it.

Diehl said that the dual-targeting systems make the PILUM an ideal weapon for use in operations when targets are on the move. The Spice is operational in the Israeli Air Force and is configured to be launched from F- 16 and F-15 fighter jets. The PILUM, Diehl said, could be used against ships, enemy radar positions as well as air defense systems.

“It opens new possibilities of flexible mission planning and execution in view of rapidly changing air-to-ground scenarios,” the German company said. A decision to develop the new missile was concluded a few months ago and a sketch of it was unveiled in late June at the Paris Air Show.

The primary advantage of the missile is the ability to use two different systems to bomb targets. For example, in the event that satellite systems are not working during a future conflict, an operator will be able to upload a picture of a target into the missile, which, using unique scene-matching algorithms, adjusts the missile’s flight path to find the target.
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