India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 11:11

indranilroy wrote:Gurinder ... this is baseless!!! When you don't know how the hardware behaves, what will you code for?! For example how can I write the source code for the FCS of Rafale ?!! or the weapons ?!! or the radar!!!

You cant even write a source code for a new computer if you don't know the architecture, let alone a complex plane. I mean System software like device drivers or Operating Systems or even a simple mp3 player.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 11:22

I think the issue is whether one can provide libraries of new threat data for the OEM computer to read and incorporate. or whether one is stuck with the original set of libraries and the updates from OEM. the OEM may not care or have the means to "sniff" out new threats in the region while we constantly do it. they may not want to reveal all such data sniffed by their own national intel assets.

the ability to update the library automatically means the OEM provides some tools to convert your raw data into a format their SW can understand and blend into existing libs.

its like of like Mcaffee supplying the actual virus control "engine" and a stream of updates but providing a tool for customers to add in their own virus sig updates as well.

when the euros say "provide full source codes" they mean the above and perhaps some ability to tune the countermeasures behaviour as well - like say firing gaps of the flare dispenser or the distance at which the MAWS will auto deploy chaff....with the americans there will be no such liberties and it will come in a stream of "sealed boxes" which you just plug in.

once can 400% certain neither the euros, americans or russians will part with all threat data esp about bleeding edge chinese systems. they will retain for own use. so the ability to gather and program that data ourselves is important imo.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 12:43

Singha wrote:I think the issue is whether one can provide libraries of new threat data for the OEM computer to read and incorporate. or whether one is stuck with the original set of libraries and the updates from OEM. the OEM may not care or have the means to "sniff" out new threats in the region while we constantly do it. they may not want to reveal all such data sniffed by their own national intel assets..

Singha, this is thinking outside the box... the ability to add / tweak / even delete threat data is way yoo important than the other things about Source Code...being able to understand or have a compiler type which would translate Desh format/Template filled data to Euro format would be a great improvement. Imagine we can upload different libraries for different missions. GREAT. Will they allow this ?!?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 12:47

well I posted what I understood from the "full access to source codes" marketing story. maybe I am wrong.
another variation could customer(India) supplies the raw data and they do the conversion and update of threat lib thats pushed to us in the next "sw maintainence release" .... from our pov it would be better we do that ourself using tools supplied by the OEM and put the data into a binary form before compiling it in or keeping it somewhere in the system where the main sw picks it up. agencies like DARE, BAE-HAL sw, HCL, Wipro, TCS, LRDE, the IAF sw dev center et al are fully capable of running such an operation.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Jul 2011 13:39

Combat aircraft bids opening soon
ExpressBuzz

Highly-placed sources have indicated that the bids for the most-awaited tender will be opened within the next 10 days, before present IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik demits his office.

“The bids’ envelope will be opened soon. But, the lowest bidder will not emerge immediately,” sources said and added: “We will be considering nine parameters, including life cycle cost, maintenance cost, cost of spare parts and so forth. The process is very tedious and will take couple of months before a price tag is put on the two down selected aircrafts.”

The opening of the bids will be followed by commercial negotiations around September with the vendors before the signing of the contract. “The contract negotiations will be based on 538 parameters based on which the IAF has arrived at a reasonable cost for the contract,” pointed the sources.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 13:55

shukla wrote:Highly-placed sources have indicated that the bids for the most-awaited tender will be opened within the next 10 days, before present IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik demits his office.
“The bids’ envelope will be opened soon. But, the lowest bidder will not emerge immediately,” sources said and added: “We will be considering nine parameters, including life cycle cost, maintenance cost, cost of spare parts and so forth. The process is very tedious and will take couple of months before a price tag is put on the two down selected aircrafts.”

this is a great news... kudos to ACM Naik for seeing this through. If only IA chiefs had shown similar doggedness in pursuing the Arjun MBT, we will have 20 Regiments of Arjun MBT by now. His Enthusiasm for LCA has been slightly less but then it was better than his predecessors. Air Marshal Browne has big shoes to fill.
Added: Mu 1,000th post!!!

kelesis · Post by **kelesis** » 21 Jul 2011 14:11

Well, here in Paris the french seems very confident. Dassault consider the IAF has already chosen the Rafale and they only fear a US come back like it happened in Brazil. That's the possible "political problem" mentioned by Longuet. According to many observers, the US (help by indian politics and lobbies) have more than enough influence to make India cancel MMRCA and go for F-35.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 14:22

kelesis wrote:Well, here in Paris the french seems very confident. Dassault consider the IAF has already chosen the Rafale and they only fear a US come back like it happened in Brazil. That's the possible "political problem" mentioned by Longuet. According to many observers, the US (help by indian politics and lobbies) have more than enough influence to make India cancel MMRCA and go for F-35.

This fear in the French is good for Desh, it will help us to get couple of interesting things from them during our arm twisting exercise. Maybe bring down cost? May be get more stuff for Kaveri etc.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2011 14:49

Lot of learning is there for IA from IAF on the MRCA front since the start of trials, and selection. kudos. DS++ for the loser.

paramyog · Post by **paramyog** » 21 Jul 2011 16:52

Pretty much clear that MoD@GoI is not headed the F-35 way. They'v got their hands full with PAK-FGFA. Very much justified beacuse F-35 is not yet fully inducted in to service. Maybe the navy could take a call, but thats much later.
Now if its L1, keeping the 9 costing parameters in mind, Rafale is almost a no-brainer winner UNTIL...
EF accountants can prove otherwise.
The only way they could do that is, exhibit the cost differential by ACTUALLY manufacturing all components in India. I wonder how much low would that bring the overall costs, especially when RAF is plannin to get rid of EF themselves on cost based parameters.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2011 17:02

As golfers well know," tis many a slip 'tween the cup and the lip..." Or as they say in Rome about papal conclaves,"the favourite who goes in as pope comes out a cardinal"!

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 21 Jul 2011 19:27

Yeah, but it's not about a new pope. After the M2K upgrade signed it should be clear that Rafale wins. No sane person would spend that much money on old airframes. Well, unless this upgrade is used to offload part of the throughlife costs of the Rafale.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jul 2011 20:23

The article starts from page 24 of the pdf. Some good info in there....

A Fighter Pilot's Dream
http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/SP_ ... y_2011.pdf

Ouch...those cockpits are TIGHT!!!

A beautiful picture though.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GguFi-4bMtU/T ... /R4-18.jpg

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2011 22:03

all they need is 3" either side.. and that would also increase the number of t/rs to 15-20%, plus the space for retractable probes and pods.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 22:07

the seating looks right out of kingfisher red or older air asia planes - super tight.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2011 22:11

It could add the restriction to IAF pilot's size and weight. I know they must be fit and agile, but not necessarily conforming to size and shape and height.

Kat is a no no for khan sized fighter pilots.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 22:51

but the cockpit of F16 and A10 must be quite tight...maybe smaller rice eating khan pilots are sent into these.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 02:46

SaiK wrote:It could add the restriction to IAF pilot's size and weight. I know they must be fit and agile, but not necessarily conforming to size and shape and height.
Kat is a no no for khan sized fighter pilots.

So are you saying super duper TFTA Fizzleya pilots cannot fit into Rafale... Scrap the MMRCA, they are useless... Let us But Bhandar!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jul 2011 03:05

Rakesh wrote: Ouch...those cockpits are TIGHT!!! A beautiful picture though.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GguFi-4bMtU/T ... /R4-18.jpg

Rafale's are a tight fit. The seats better have a reclining and a sliding button.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2011 03:32

Time prhaps to repost Shiv A's experience of flying all the MMRCA contenders and his cockpit experiences? His comparison of the aircraft is well worth a review,now hat we are in the "home stretch".

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jul 2011 04:40

Guys, the more appropriate word is snug...tight may be the wrong term to use. Snug but functional

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 07:56

Rakesh wrote:Guys, the more appropriate word is snug...tight may be the wrong term to use. Snug but functional

It is a snug fit, packed with everything a pilot needs to excel in his mission. An asset to any Air Force. Rafales excelled in the Libyan Campaign by a mile when compared to other platforms. Waiting to see Katrina wrapped in the Indian Tricolor.
They should get 50% of single seat and two seat babies.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jul 2011 07:59

So, did they say why those emergency landings happened?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Jul 2011 08:20

SaiK wrote:So, did they say why those emergency landings happened?

The emergency landings were by Mirage F1 jets, not Rafale:

Two French Air Force Mirage F1 fighters made emergency landing in Malta

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2011 09:43

I think generally anything related to the fuel systems or engines results in a safety protocol kicking in and they scrub mission and head for the nearest runway. seems to work well, because NATO lost only the solitary F-15E so far, rest all made it back.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 11:08

Singha wrote:I think generally anything related to the fuel systems or engines results in a safety protocol kicking in and they scrub mission and head for the nearest runway. seems to work well, because NATO lost only the solitary F-15E so far, rest all made it back.

Methinks Frenchies are being extra careful considering the fact that crucial selections are in the process currently. Hence you see more emergency landings without endangering the air-frame or the pilot(s).

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Jul 2011 12:42

plus its a phoney war... why risk expensive beasts in a war that has little meaning?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Jul 2011 13:53

A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words

Click the Image below to See the 2029 x 1617 Very Large Image, 3 Megapixel edition of the Rafale's Weapon Loadout Options

The New Thing is You will be able to Read the Text Easily

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jul 2011 14:09

Thanks Juggi, text very clear.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 22 Jul 2011 15:30

That's a lovely pic. Thanks a ton Juggi G

Danell · Post by **Danell** » 22 Jul 2011 19:03

PratikDas wrote:
SaiK wrote:So, did they say why those emergency landings happened?
The emergency landings were by Mirage F1 jets, not Rafale:

Two French Air Force Mirage F1 fighters made emergency landing in Malta

About landings in Malta...

Never forget that the coordination of air operations over a war zone is a very complex thing especially when aircrafts must fly thousands of miles to reach or leave the combat zone.
So since day 1, most French Air Force aircrafts operating above Lybia took off from France (for example Rafale from Saint Dizier, 1300 miles from Lybia) or Corsica, unlike others Nato aircrafts which were coming from closer bases located in southern Italy, Crete and especially Sicily. So, since the beginning, Malta is an alternate airport used as things come, mainly for refueling the aircrafts with the furthest airbases that have consumed more fuel than expected and could miss or have missed one of their rendezvous with their tanker.

It should be less complex for the French Air force now since Rafales have been transfered to Sigonella/Sicily, 10 days ago, and since every Mirage 2000 N/D are in Suda/Crete. But that's not the case of the Mirage F1CR now coming from Mont-de-Marsan , Southwest of France.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest
http://www.corsematin.com/article/corse ... -sigonella

What is important is that, regardless of duration and distance, no Rafale missions over Lybia were aborted because of aircraft unavailability and that the availability rate was always close to 100%.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 23 Jul 2011 03:20

Why India Wouldn’t Buy American Fighter Jets

In an interview earlier this week with the U.S. National Bureau of Asian Research, U.S.-India defense expert Stephen Cohen, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, laid out some more provocative theories. India is “uneasy” about using U.S. planes on missions that could involve combat in Pakistan, he said, and “there may also be U.S. laws limiting the planes from carrying nuclear weapons.”

But the real reason U.S. hopes were spiked, Mr. Cohen said, was that India doesn’t think it can rely politically on Washington to supply planes over the long-term. “India would have given the order to a U.S. firm if it had been assured that the United States would back India politically thereafter,” Mr. Cohen said in the interview. “Since this guarantee was not available, and awarding a U.S. firm the contract would increase Washington’s ability to influence New Delhi, the United States was a not a good choice politically as a supplier.”

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 23 Jul 2011 03:34

Well I don't know whether the decision to eliminate US birds was political or technical, but I guess Mr Cohen is correct with his assessment that owing to some hostile moves of US in the past, there still exists a great deal of mistrust about USA in India.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jul 2011 04:03

Yeah!.. it is a correlated argument, but as everyone knows it is nothing do with politics. We have told many times, and our forces have specifically briefed the masan companies (both the teens), and they have acknowledged the decision. Is that political or a technical process?

Of course SD forcing our babus to succumb to give an explanations why they were not shortlisted, is political. Had these companies directly followed the process, and directly interacted with IAF, then it may not be political.

BTW, post nuke deal lot of mil support systems and defensive system orders have gone to masa, and more than $30b is projected to go to them in the years to come.

Put that cohen's mark in trash.. We at BR don't like paki cohen

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 23 Jul 2011 04:26

Juggi G wrote:3 Megapixel edition of the Rafale's Weapon Loadout Options

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7946/weaponfoldout.png

Here's the real thing, blasting-off Malta 3 weeks ago, only 1 mp edition though

How i wish we could shoot like this at Indian Military Airfields

Came across some nice shots of Katrina & EF2K by our Aero India mate Andreas & others:

From Airpower 2011 Airshow, Zeltwig. Austrian EF2k positive-climb from both sides

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jul 2011 04:30

Other than the cost and delay in the AESA program, EF2k is ideal a/c for IAF. Of course, what Kat brings in, would be awesome as well.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 23 Jul 2011 09:20

IMO MMRCA may have a greater impact on US Pak relations rather than Indo US relations. I feel the rejection of US birds have reduced the leverage US may have had over pak in dictating their foriegn policy as MMRCA can be perceived as an offensive platform where a sound relationship with US would be the key to keep india at bay this may be one reason why US was hell-bent upon securing the deal.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 11:41

Asit P wrote:Well I don't know whether the decision to eliminate US birds was political or technical, but I guess Mr Cohen is correct with his assessment that owing to some hostile moves of US in the past, there still exists a great deal of mistrust about USA in India.

... and what has the US done to correct this impression? nothing perceptible... Pakees are still being armed...
Also this statement by Uneven is to white-wash the fact that the teens sucked in the tech eval, so starting a bush fire to avoid any criticism of the teens.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 12:07

G@nesh wrote:IMO MMRCA may have a greater impact on US Pak relations rather than Indo US relations. I feel the rejection of US birds have reduced the leverage US may have had over pak in dictating their foriegn policy as MMRCA can be perceived as an offensive platform where a sound relationship with US would be the key to keep india at bay this may be one reason why US was hell-bent upon securing the deal.

possible but rather a loose logic. It could have worked the other way too, because of Desh getting the F-18, Pakees might have felt Piqued and demanded ==; this might further aggravate relationships. Also this might constraint future Bhakshees to the Bekhari. Also increase suspicion to Bekari about Khan. for Desh it would have been a "sword hanging above ones head" sitn.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 23 Jul 2011 16:40

Shrinivasan wrote:
G@nesh wrote:IMO MMRCA may have a greater impact on US Pak relations rather than Indo US relations. I feel the rejection of US birds have reduced the leverage US may have had over pak in dictating their foriegn policy as MMRCA can be perceived as an offensive platform where a sound relationship with US would be the key to keep india at bay this may be one reason why US was hell-bent upon securing the deal.
possible but rather a loose logic. It could have worked the other way too, because of Desh getting the F-18, Pakees might have felt Piqued and demanded ==; this might further aggravate relationships. Also this might constraint future Bhakshees to the Bekhari. Also increase suspicion to Bekari about Khan. for Desh it would have been a "sword hanging above ones head" sitn.

Either way it works advantage still possibly lies with the US as this would have further increased dependancy of both nations on them and hence make US a key player in this region post afghan exit. In this case india could act as a deterrent to pakistans deviation from the US.