India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 04 Aug 2011 11:05

Victor wrote:
manum wrote:..start suggesting a unsustainable method..

What is this "unsustainable method"? Making or buying stealth aircraft is a MUST for us asap. If you don't think so, say why instead of blowing unintelligible hot air. Any street urchin can say "crap".


yup any street urchin can say crap...that is why I said so, you have been called crap by any street urchin.

Now coming to the point of asking why's, when water has gone over the head...F35 is still very costly and under development, till they don't sell any of these platforms in the quoted price of 65m$...Its not worth it to put our hands in another under development project, which is still to take off for few years to come and get deployed...Like typhoons and Rafales have done.
There are many issues surrounding these platforms of F's...and its better to be judged when they are more visible. best way for them is to bring F35 to India and make us fly and test them like we did other platforms...

But there are millions of more reasons, I can not recollect due to boredom...Please forgive this street urchin, cant really fathom the higher wisdom of F-35's. When we are already In FGFA, AMCA, MMRCA and LCA...We need to spend money in management than armament now...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby devesh » 04 Aug 2011 11:33

^^^
I don't understand the obsession with the F-35 either. even American fighter designers have come out and said the F-35 is a technically unsound aircraft with severe Lift vs. Stealth issues. they have created a very complicated system that is a PITA, and is virtually useless in WVR combat against more maneuverable Russian designed 4+ gen fighters.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 04 Aug 2011 12:27

^ I'd like to read about the issues that you mention. I've read Carlo Kopp's analysis, but can you please post some other links? Incidentally, he puts the Rafale and Typhoon in the same 'low capability' category as the JSF:
Image

And relax guys, we all want the best for desh, we're just debating different ideas of what this is and who to get it from :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Aug 2011 13:37

sohels wrote:^ I'd like to read about the issues that you mention. I've read Carlo Kopp's analysis, but can you please post some other links? Incidentally, he puts the Rafale and Typhoon in the same 'low capability' category as the JSF:

And relax guys, we all want the best for desh, we're just debating different ideas of what this is and who to get it from :)


A better ccategorisation would have been Heavy Fighters and Medium Fighters.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 04 Aug 2011 13:55

As stated several times by Indian officials, IAF will not go for F-35 and the choice is clearly between Rafale and Typhoon. JSF is in big troubles for the moment and we don't know much about its real capabilities. Even the brits don't have acces to ToT with the F-35, it would be the less relevant choice for India. Delays can still occur and the price will probably rise again. India should focus on MMRCA, T-50 and Tejas, this is more than enough to build a strong air force and a competitive industry.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Gurinder P » 04 Aug 2011 14:06

^Totally agree. JSF is a hole in the ground where you throw money into. FGFA and AMCA are perfectly agreeable for the IAF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 04 Aug 2011 17:44

kelesis wrote:As stated several times by Indian officials, IAF will not go for F-35 and the choice is clearly between Rafale and Typhoon. JSF is in big troubles for the moment and we don't know much about its real capabilities. Even the brits don't have acces to ToT with the F-35, it would be the less relevant choice for India. Delays can still occur and the price will probably rise again. India should focus on MMRCA, T-50 and Tejas, this is more than enough to build a strong air force and a competitive industry.


The focus is indeed on the MMRCA, just regarding which aircraft. Instead of reflexively stifling debate about the JSF, we should ask for further details - what do we get, when do we get it and how much do we pay? I'm not sure what you expect the others to offer in terms of ToT - I doubt if we'll learn how to design and manufacture potent fighter planes as a direct result of this purchase, regardless of what we buy. But yes, we should try and get similar terms from the US, and this can only be achieved by engaging them in serious negotiations, not rebuffing their offer without giving a serious, well considered response. Its in our interest to do the former. Most importantly, and as has been pointed out several times, we should make a concerted effort to make the JSF available for testing by the IAF - and I don't see why this can't happen.

If we are then satisfied, we get a platform that will remain cutting edge for a long time to come. The JSF will be developed and optimized with a keen eye on the evolving threat from China. Remember, the current round of development for the Rafale and Typhoon is being done largely to win export orders, chiefly our own. Even if we assume that they successfully complete this on time and within budget, what about 20 years down the line when the only operator who has the need and the resources for further development is India? We'll be made to pay through our noses so that the jointly determined requirements may perhaps get fulfilled. And lets not forget, the current Typhoon operators are not exactly a happy lot, while the Rafale has not won a single export order and still needs an Etendard in tow to function properly. Why be blind to the faults of these two, while being hypersensitive to those of the JSF? Let us explore ALL our options with an open mind?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 04 Aug 2011 18:31

The question of JSF has already been explored by the IAF and the answer is no! Why should we speculate on this? Even the closest allies of US don't have acces to ToT, which is a basic requirements of IAF. Each month we can read reports on the F-35 problems (cost, delays, doubt on capabilities etc...), the brits, the dutch and aussies are looking for a way out of this mess... I don't think India will delete years of work by the IAF and postponed the MMRCA for 2 or 3 years just to test the F-35. The IAF seems to be convinced that both Rafale and Typhoon meets their highest requirements.

the Rafale has not won a single export order and still needs an Etendard in tow to function properly


Surprising statement! I didn't find a single report showing that the Rafale needs a SEM to work properly, can you provide a link from a credible source? I've read all daily reports of french mindef since the beginning of the strikes in Libya and I found nothing about this. Nothing more in the huge quantity of serious papers written this past few month about the operations in Libya. On the contrary it seems that the Rafale have impressed observers.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby yantra » 04 Aug 2011 18:59

sohels wrote:
The focus is indeed on the MMRCA, just regarding which aircraft.


That is what the IAF and MoD has been doing so far and have spent these last 8-10 years on. US presented 2 aircraft which fell short. Period.

sohels wrote: Most importantly, and as has been pointed out several times, we should make a concerted effort to make the JSF available for testing by the IAF - and I don't see why this can't happen.


Do you mean to say, we go through another 2-3 years of grind to find out if JSF is good for us and then place on order on MMRCA? Even if we then - optimistically- place on order on JSF it will take LM 4-6 yrs further to deliver (2020-2022 time-frame). The focus of this MMRCA is not 5th gen stealth fighters - they are for 4.5+ Gen fighters for immediate induction.

sohels wrote:The JSF will be developed and optimized with a keen eye on the evolving threat from China.


By who?

sohels wrote:... Even if we assume that they successfully complete this on time and within budget, what about 20 years down the line when the only operator who has the need and the resources for further development is India? We'll be made to pay through our noses so that the jointly determined requirements may perhaps get fulfilled.


That is why India is insisting on full ToT which has been offered by Rafale and Typhoon and NOT by US manufacturers so far. Do you think LM will agree to manufacture 200+ JSFs in HAL facilities? Can they manufacture 20+ JSF fighters per month out of HAL (which is required by GoI)?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Danell » 04 Aug 2011 19:22

kelesis wrote:
the Rafale has not won a single export order and still needs an Etendard in tow to function properly


Surprising statement! I didn't find a single report showing that the Rafale needs a SEM to work properly, can you provide a link from a credible source? I've read all daily reports of french mindef since the beginning of the strikes in Libya and I found nothing about this. Nothing more in the huge quantity of serious papers written this past few month about the operations in Libya. On the contrary it seems that the Rafale have impressed observers.


Problably outdated infos .. at the time when the Damocles pod was not yet operational on Rafale ...

[...]Naval aviation has led, in January, its first operational missions with the couples Damocles / Rafale. From the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, during the last mission Agapanthus, pilots of Rafale F3 have implemented the new laser designation pod developed by Thales. This equipment, which began to be delivered in 2010, allows Navy and Air Force aircrafts to perform independently in firing laser-guided weapons. Previously, the use of laser guided bombs required, in effect, two aircraft, a Super Etendard was illuminating the target while the other device was using its weapons. With the commissioning of the F3 standard Rafale and the arrival of Damocles, a single aircraft can now identify and treat a target.[...]

From
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=115613

Flying two to three CAS missions per day over Afghanistan with four bombs; either 500lb (227kg) GBU-12 Paveway IIs or AASMs and the internal 30mm cannon. For targeting, the Rafale now utilises the same Damocles M targeting pod carried by the SEM, with the first operational flight of a Damocles-equipped Rafale taking place on january 2, 2011

From:
AFM April 2011, page 70

Now Rafale routinely use Damocles over Libya.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 04 Aug 2011 20:06

^Yes, outdated info indeed I'm afraid.

kelesis wrote:The question of JSF has already been explored by the IAF and the answer is no!


But there's been no effort to explain why this is so, or to get a better deal:

We have already entered into a partnership with Russia in developing our own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA),” Defence Minister A K Antony said.

An official spokesperson from the Ministry of Defence (MoD), said that, "We have progressed a lot in the MMRCA programme, we have crossed a lot of stages that have become part of history and there is no turning back."

These are not criticisms of the F-35 per se. I did however find one good reason to not enter the JSF program in the early stages: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/israel-plans-to-buy-over-100-f35s-02381/
Lockheed Martin, meanwhile, is trying to ramp up orders for the F-35 quickly, even though the aircraft are now expected to remain in testing until 2015. A large order book would allow the firm to offer early buyers much lower prices for each plane, using dollar averaging over a substantial initial batch, instead of charging $150 – $170 million for early production aircraft and $100 million or so for the same plane 3 years later.

That dynamic is standard for military aircraft of all types, but the F-35 is about 5-7 years late versus its market ideal market window. Potential customers with air fleets that are reaching their expiry dates are reluctant to pay those early production costs, and if enough of them defect, the F-35 program as a whole could find itself in trouble. Hence the F-35 program’s interest in a substantial early order from Israel.


So if we enter too early, it seems we would effectively subsidize the purchases of early buyers! Unless of course, we are offered a 'special price' by Madame Hillary (yes, further info needed). Would this also be the reason why some customers might want to cut orders now and avoid paying those early production costs, but then place them again later when they can avail the lower price? If so, they might pretend to be concerned about the aircraft itself to justify backing out!

Also from the same article:
Access to the F-35’s software source code remains a live issue for the Israelis, as it has been with the Australians, British, and others. That access is necessary for countries that want to upgrade the aircraft’s computers, and/or integrate new weapons, communications, or electronic warfare systems. Israeli planes generally undergo heavy modifications to incorporate Israeli electronics and weapons systems, and the US has allowed the Israelis access to the F-15 and F-16’s software. In June 2006, Snir said that he is confident the F-35A’s computers will not be an issue. He reiterated that there was:

”...no dispute with the US that IAF F-35s would include Israeli communications and electronic warfare technologies and missiles developed by Rafael Armament Development Authority Ltd.”

Israel will certainly seek to ensure that items like its communications systems, LITENING surveillance and targeting pod technology, ECM and defensive electronics, Python short-range missiles, and other weapons will be part of its initial F-35A buy – or at the very least, slotted into the overall program’s formal integration plans by a reasonable date.

Those possibilities are now in question, and will not be an option for its initial buy.

In Israel's case, it seems the US has offered to integrate their stuff before handing over delivery, presumably in order not to part with source codes. Bummer. We should still ask for them though, never know what they'd agree to when they're eager to make a sale!


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby yantra » 04 Aug 2011 20:34

F-35 no doubt, is likely to be a formidable fighter.

Wiki has reams of data available on the Program so far. This snippet caught my attention:

"In January 2011 Defense Secretary Robert Gates expressed the Pentagon's frustration with the skyrocketing costs of the F-35 program when he said "The culture of endless money that has taken hold must be replaced by a culture of restraint." Focusing his attention on the troubled VTOL F-35B Gates ordered "a two-year probation", saying it "should be canceled" if corrections are unsuccessful. However, Gates has stated his support for the program. Some private analysts, such as Richard Aboulafia, of the Teal Group state that the whole F-35 program is becoming a money pit."

There could be an opportunity for India (Unkil does not have deep pockets to support this) to do what the Israelis are doing - put our own/modified avionics (with the help of Israelis, of course :)) and some modifications to suit us. It of course cannot replace the MMRCA. India has to pursue this independent of MMRCA, if at all, and see how it can fit into IAF doctrines in 2020s.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 04 Aug 2011 21:10



"He said: "We told the tender committee that this particular unit is experimental, and that in future we will make a larger radar antenna [capable of being used at a longer range]."

Barkovsky pointed out that the Eurofighter Typhoon is yet to be fitted with a working AESA radar."


"While the Russians demonstrated their radar fitted to the real fighter and working, [Eurofighter] demonstrated their radar on a helicopter," he said."

Well I think the RBE2 AESA has been tested on Rafale and has meet all IAF requirements :twisted:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 04 Aug 2011 21:19

F-35 fleet grounded after electrical subsystem failure

The incident marks the third grounding order for the F-35 fleet since last October, and the second in five months involving the AF-4 test aircraft.

That incident also triggered a fleet-wide grounding in March until Lockheed fixed a flaw with a new generator system design introduced on AF-4. Some aircraft remained grounded for several weeks until the problem was fixed.

Last October, the fleet was also grounded after Lockheed discovered a software glitch that could have allowed the fuel pump to shut down above 10,000ft.



http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/08/03/360325/f-35-fleet-grounded-after-electrical-subsystem-failure.html

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Ghatotkacha » 04 Aug 2011 22:37

:) Slightly off-topic

MOD's South Asia peace check-list should look like this:

1. Post Tender for MMRCA (Completed)
3. Weed out weak contenders (Completed)
4. Select Typhoon (In Progress)
5. Buy 180 Typhoon by 2013 (Pending)
6. Pulverize PAF by 2014 (Pending)
7. Ban PAF existence by enforcing No-fly zone (Pending)
8. Re-integrate POK to India (Pending)
9. Live happily in eternal piece (Pending)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 04 Aug 2011 23:53

Imo,
tfta process: apply technology
sdre process: adapt technology

so, there is no point bringing in JaSooF stuffs here.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby ramana » 05 Aug 2011 00:55

PTI reports:

IAF to have 42 combat aircraft squadrons
New Delhi, Aug 4 (PTI)

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is mulling over increasing its sanctioned strength of combat aircraft from 39.5 squadrons to 42 squadrons, a Parliamentary panel report has said.


"The IAF Vice Chief has informed that target has been fixed to reach a level of 42 squadrons," the report of the Standing Committee on Defence, said.

The Committee had laid its report in the Parliament yesterday. The current squadron strength of the force is 33. A squadron comprises around 18 to 20 aircraft. In view of increasing Chinese military deployment along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the IAF has been strengthening its presence in the northeastern sector and has plans of deploying four squadrons of the air superiority Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft there by 2015.

Under its modernisation plans, air bases on the western front are also being equipped with modern airfield infrastructure and new fighter planes. The IAF has plans of inducting more than 350 fighter jet aircraft by the end of this decade which includes the 126 multi-role combat planes (M-MRCA), over 160 new Su-30 MKIs and over 140 indigenously-built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Over 140 new Su-30s will be inducted along with 126 M-MRCAs, the deal for which is expected to be finalised by the end of September. The IAF is also phasing out its old Russian-origin fleet of MiG aircraft -- the 21, 23 and 27 series. The oldest MiG-21 Type-77 is likely to be decommissioned by the end of next year.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 05 Aug 2011 03:53

Aditya_V wrote:A better ccategorisation would have been Heavy Fighters and Medium Fighters.


The low capability has more measures for analyzing role, but when go by weights, I guess it would be the MTOW, and max weapon load.

I could have a heavy fighter but single role, thus lowering capability.

EoD, it all depends on the configuration, and requirements.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 05 Aug 2011 15:42

Dassault May Sell 63 Rafales to UAE

Such an order would be worth between 6 billion euros ($8.5 billion) and 8 billion euros, the French newspaper said. The negotiations include plans for the purchase of Meteor missiles built by MBDA, a missile maker comprised of European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., BAE Systems Plc (BA/) and Italy’s Finmecanicca SpA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Vashishtha » 05 Aug 2011 15:51

Dassault May Sell 63 Rafales to UAE


UAE muscling up to iran perhaps?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rohitvats » 05 Aug 2011 16:45

^^^Does that means we may get used Mirages?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 05 Aug 2011 17:09

mmm.. quite possible, while phackies get used Rafale from UAE!

DSI++

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Fidel Guevara » 05 Aug 2011 21:39

sohels wrote:^ I'd like to read about the issues that you mention. I've read Carlo Kopp's analysis, but can you please post some other links? Incidentally, he puts the Rafale and Typhoon in the same 'low capability' category as the JSF:
Image

And relax guys, we all want the best for desh, we're just debating different ideas of what this is and who to get it from :)


I fail to understand how we can call these "low capability" planes...they are lighter, smaller planes which have other benefits that the so-called "high-capability" planes do not have. $ for $, they have as much bang for the buck as the higher-end planes. eg F16 vs F15.

Also the mission profiles are quite different - the so-called high-capability planes are primarily for air-superiority and the "low-capability" planes are mostly multipurpose...again look at the original intent of the F16 and the pre-F22 F15.

And why is the F111 included at all?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 05 Aug 2011 21:48

In the end Kopp has a strong dislike for any aircraft that's not called F-22 or F-111. In his article about EF he sums it up as "F-15 class performance in a F-18 sized airframe."
And now he rates the F-15 higher in this chart. And unfortunately he's wrong in both. Tiffy offers better performance than F-15 in a smaller airframe than F-18. Same can be said about Rafale.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 05 Aug 2011 22:09

shukla wrote:Dassault May Sell 63 Rafales to UAE

Such an order would be worth between 6 billion euros ($8.5 billion) and 8 billion euros, the French newspaper said. The negotiations include plans for the purchase of Meteor missiles built by MBDA, a missile maker comprised of European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., BAE Systems Plc (BA/) and Italy’s Finmecanicca SpA.


so its $134 million a piece. :roll:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby yantra » 05 Aug 2011 22:22

If you take the high-end figure, assuming Euro 1 bn for support/training/infra, it is closer to US$156 mn/plane (Euro 7 bn for 63 planes)!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby vishnu.nv » 06 Aug 2011 02:29

The Amounts for which UAE spends on aircraft also includes the life long support from the OEM technicians and training and set of airbases etc. Along with that add all the bells and whistles they add to the airframe for which they French may happily charge them.

The IAF will mostly opt for the same configuration the French air force uses or as per our requirements.

The Pakis getting used aircrafts from saudis and UAE is their wet dream....

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 06 Aug 2011 05:43

The price also seems to include missiles. I do not think the Indian price includes them. ????

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shiv » 06 Aug 2011 06:16

Publicly discussed prices of planes is pure trash. That means that total cost divided by number of aircraft will be an equally misleading figure. The real figures and exactly why those figures are being quoted will always remain hidden for various reasons.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 06 Aug 2011 09:15

To arrive at a price per plane here would be misleading and simplistic.

They will all be in fly away condition. All components will come from Dassault (vs. we manufacturing some locally). Quantity and sophistication of the bells and whistles etc. Training fully outsourced and many other factors.

Not to mention how well the UAE is capable of utilising its negotiating skills.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby abhik » 06 Aug 2011 10:34

shiv wrote:Publicly discussed prices of planes is pure trash. That means that total cost divided by number of aircraft will be an equally misleading figure. The real figures and exactly why those figures are being quoted will always remain hidden for various reasons.

That I believe is total crap, To think that a politician will risk his/her political career just so that the OEM can keep his price secret.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby abhik » 06 Aug 2011 10:44

shiv wrote:As an aside - India can get 1000 stealth fighters if we want, but how will that help if Pakistan has 2000 nuclear armed surface to surface missiles each costing 1/10th of the stealth aircraft?

The surface to surface missiles may cost 1/10th of the stealth aircraft but not the nuclear warhead. Just saying.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 06 Aug 2011 11:14

yantra wrote:If you take the high-end figure, assuming Euro 1 bn for support/training/infra, it is closer to US$156 mn/plane (Euro 7 bn for 63 planes)!


That deal, if signed, will ensure smooth sailing through our benchmarking process? But given that the flyaway cost of the super hornet is ~$55 mil, or around $80 mil with masala and that of the Su-30MKI is still lower (yes, yes, diversification etc) - I sure hope we're not making a huge mistake. But then we paid 2.4 $bil to upgrade 51 Mirages, or about $47 mil each. Where's the CAG when you need him?!

MarcH wrote:Tiffy offers better performance than F-15 in a smaller airframe than F-18. Same can be said about Rafale.


And yet the Americans (using F-15s and A-10s?) had to clear the way in Libya before the Tiffy and Rafale could work their magic :-? Or do you mean just better kinematic performance, and not overall battle performance/effectiveness?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 06 Aug 2011 19:55

And yet the Americans (using F-15s and A-10s?) had to clear the way in Libya before the Tiffy and Rafale could work


WTF!It is well known that the french Rafales were the first fighters flying over Libya. The F-15, even very usefull, came only after. This is the second time you write obviously wrong informations about the Rafale in Libya...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Danell » 06 Aug 2011 20:49

Saving Benghazi
Combat Aircraft magazine; Vol 12 n°6

The leading role played by the French AF fast jets in the leading stage of the Lybia operation was daring and impressive

In November 1, 1911, an aircraft carried out an air raid for the first time in history. It took place during the ltalo-Turkish war, and the type was a French-built Bleriot XI flown by Italian military pilot 2nd Lt Guilio Guidotti who threw Cipelli Fragmentation grenades at troops occupying the Taguira and Ain Zara oases, east of Tripoli in what was then Tripolitania, now Libya. Fast forward 100 years to 2011, an air power was again bein deployed 'in anger' over Libya, albeit in rather more potent form — this time with France's "Armee de l'Air" leading the way.

As early as March 4, 2011, with the situation in Libya deteriorating, French military aircraft began to carry out surveillance and electronic warfare missions over the Mediterranean, alongside those of the US and UK. The aim, of course, was to build up intelligence relating to Libya's electronic order of battle and tap into its communications. After the Paris meeting organized by French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Saturday March 19, the other major members of the coalition being built up to impose a no-fly zone, British Prime Minister David Cameron and US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, agreed to take part in the imposition of UN Resolution 1973. Much to the surprise of many observers, the participants in the summit had hardly left the Elysee Palace when French aircraft went into action.

Three sections of Rafale F3s from Base Aérienne (BA) 113 Saint-Dizier belonging to Escadron de Chasse 1/7 'Provence' took off from their home base at around 11.00hrs. The first four-ship consisted of single-seat aircraft in air defense configuration, each equipped with six MICA missiles — four MICA EMs and two MICA IRs — as well as three 1,250-liter drop tanks. Six minutes later they were followed by another two Rafales equipped with the Reco NG reconnaissance pod, while in the early afternoon a further two-aircraft section comprised one jet in close air support configuration toting four AASM (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire) inertial and CPS-guided modular bombs, four MICAS (again of EM and IR types) and two 2,000-liter drop tanks, with its wingman providing air defense cover in commbat air patrol fit.
At 15.00hrs that same day, two Mirage 2000Ds operated by EC 3/3 'Ardennes' at BA 133 Nancy-Ochey got airborne, armed with GBU-12 Paveway II and GBU-49 Enhanced Paveway II laser-guided bombs. They soon joined up with a pair of MICA- armed Mirage 2000-5F air superiority Fighters of EC 1/2 'Cigognes' which had departed BA102 Dijon. Naturally, an E-3F -AWACS from BA701 Avord an, for maritime patrol and ELINT duties, an Aeronavale Atlantique ATL2 were already on patrol, while six C-135FR tankers belonging to Groupe de Ravitaillement en Vol (GRV) 93 'Bretagne' had taken off from BA 125 lstres in support of the French fast jet assets.
The first mission over Libyan territory as a long and, given the circumstances, Wiring one. The Rafales engaged in setting up the CAP maintained a 60 x 40nm air superiority zone under the control of the orbiting E-3F, while their CAS counterparts opened fire on and destroyed four Libyan government tanks which were about to enter the rebel-held Benghazi area. Close surveillance of the locality was carried out by the two Rafales with the Reco NG pods, the imagery from which was downloaded during their flight back to Saint-Dizier. These valuable images were to be shown as soon as possible to the highest government authorities. After a sortie lasting more than six hours, all aircraft involved returned safely to their home bases.

Meanwhile, two anti-aircraft and air defense frigates of the Marine Nationale, the Jean-Bart and Forbin, were patrolling off the Libyan coast. These ships would, as reported elsewhere, soon be joined by the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier and its escort and protection ships, the Aconit and Dupleix frigates, as well as the fleet refueling tanker Meuse and a nuclear attack submarine.
A heavy logistical effort was necessary in parallel with France's combat operations. C-160 Transalls on the strength of ET 1/61 `Touraine' at BA 123 Orleans and ET 1/64 'Bearn' at BA105 Evreux carried the equipment required to detach Armee de l'Air combat aircraft to BA 126 Solenzara on the island of Corsica, regularly used as the host airfield for gunnery training exercise deployments. Solenzara thus began to act as another'aircraft carrier/ in the middle of the Mediterranean.
The following days saw Armee de l'Air assets again assuming a leading position in what the French have called Operation 'Harmattan'. During the night between the fourth and fifth days of the commitment, Rafales fired SCALP EG cruise missiles for the first time at night as part of a 20-aircraft raid against a Libyan government base in the Tripoli area. And on March 24 came the notable incident when an on-station E-3F detected a Libyan Arab AF G-2 Galeb flying towards its base at Misrata, whereupon a section of Rafales was sent after it, leading to the Galeb being destroyed by an AASM as it was about to land. An aerial victory (nearly) obtained using an airto-ground weapon: quite a novelty!
In answering a message of congratulation sent by an Armee de l'Air general, the station commander of BA113 Saint-Dizier, Col Michel Friesling, noted that operation 'Harmattan' had seen the air force fighting from its bases in the mother country and in Corsica for the first time since 1940. In the first instance, this had been made possible by the outstanding capabilities of the Rafale, brought to the fore in the fight against Gaddafi's regime.


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sohels
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 06 Aug 2011 21:25

Danell wrote:As early as March 4, 2011, with the situation in Libya deteriorating, French military aircraft began to carry out surveillance and electronic warfare missions over the Mediterranean, alongside those of the US and UK.

kelesis wrote:It is well known that the french Rafales were the first fighters flying over Libya.

Well, technically you may be right. But:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/world/africa/20libya.html?pagewanted=all
Admiral Gortney cast the United States as the “leading edge” among coalition partners in the opening phase of the attack. But in keeping with Mr. Obama’s and Mrs. Clinton’s emphasis that the administration was not driving the efforts to strike Libya, the admiral and other Pentagon officials repeated that the United States would step back within days and hand over command of the coalition to one of its European allies.


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/19/world/la-fg-libya-fighting-20110320
The U.S. takes the lead in the assault to cripple air-defense systems and armor in order to establish a no-fly zone to protect rebel-held areas.


http://www.theworldreporter.com/2011/03/us-launches-missile-strike-in-libya.html
US has launched missile strikes in Libya in a move to destroy their air defence guns and missiles, clearing the way for European (read French) fighter aircrafts to enforce a no-fly zone to limit Gaddafi's actions against the rebels.

^I'm not sure about the reputation of this website, but at least the article doesn't appear to be lifafa material.

Which then led to Robert Gates being annoyed with Nato:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... agon-chief
The Libya mission was a case in point, Gates said, pointing out that the Anglo-French-led campaign was running out of munitions just weeks into operations against an insubstantial foe. The US had again had to come to the rescue of the Europeans in a campaign on Europe's shores and deemed to be of vital interest to the Europeans, he complained.

"The mightiest military alliance in history is only 11 weeks into an operation against a poorly armed regime in a sparsely populated country. Yet many allies are beginning to run short of munitions, requiring the US, once more, to make up the difference."

In March, all 28 Nato members had voted for the Libya mission, he said. "Less than half have participated, and fewer than a third have been willing to participate in the strike mission … Many of those allies sitting on the sidelines do so not because they do not want to participate, but simply because they can't. The military capabilities simply aren't there."

The air campaign had been designed to mount 300 sorties daily but was struggling to deliver 150, Gates added.


But I digress; the Rafale might indeed have been the first fighter plane to fly over Libya. I apologize.

Victor
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Victor » 06 Aug 2011 22:11

One trainer shot down, several holes in the ground, one pilot's pants on fire. The Rafale and Typhoon have obviously proved how sophisticated and battle worthy they are by their operations in Libya. :roll: Judging from the "mine is better" reports in the Euro press, I only hope the killing wasn't done solely to advertise their 'effectiveness' to prospective clients.

Image
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Aero India 2011? Nope--Libya 2009 :twisted:. With friends like these who needs enemies.

On a serious note, after the F-18 with its battle-ready AESA was not chosen, I hoped we would choose the Rafale and get the show on the road as we will be dealing with only one country and that too a independent-minded, strong-headed one without any scruples. The last thing we need is some holier-than-thou Euro country stipulating that Gujarati pilots can't fly the Typhoon.
Gunned Down
Germany and Austria have refused to give export licences to their weapon manufacturers wanting to sell to certain Indian states which they believe have a poor human rights record.
States on the blacklist include Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra, Gujarat, Manipur, Orissa and Jammu and Kashmir
.

SaiK
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 06 Aug 2011 23:35

So, what is Rafale's plan ahead for the reduced size nose comparing Ef2k's size, where it could house more number of t/rs?

shukla
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 07 Aug 2011 06:20

X post

Making foreign aircraft makers bound to disclose crash information
The Hindu

Expressing concern over countries selling aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF) not divulging vital information on accidents, the Parliamentary panel on defence strongly recommended that all future contracts incorporate clause for mandatory sharing of data.

The committee recommendation came after an IAF representative told the panel in regard to questions on MiG crashes that Russians were “extremely reluctant” to share certain information…and “they are very secretive about what goes wrong with the machine
.”

“The committee strongly recommended that in all future purchases, the condition to mandatorily share the information with regard to the accidents and helping in case of technical defect should be inbuilt in the agreement itself,” the latest report evaluating Demands for Grants said.

With the government expected to finalise the Rs. 45,000-crore 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft deal besides Basic Trainer this financial year, it remains to be seen whether the mandatory clause recommendation finds place during negotiations.


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