India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby keshavchandra » 08 Oct 2011 18:40

I still have confusion about the bid figures? For the given estimated price of 42000 Rs or 10.4 billion how could they purchase 126 aircraft, when we have a higher value of dollars and the value of both the aircraft also varies.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Indaruta » 08 Oct 2011 20:04

Drishyaman wrote:
Indaruta wrote:If the Indian government has any sense they should wait for the euro to crash and burn and only then with heavy discounts or ask the brits to sod off


And in your sense when is the euro crashing ? You aware of the specific date ? What if the euro goes the other way round ? What will be the impact on the MMRCA deal ? You will then come and say "If the Indian government has any sense should have made the deal earlier"

Buddy, its not so easy to make predictions on currency fluctuations, even the top financial analysts have made mistakes on that.... but it is relatively very easy to criticise. :)


Dear friend ..this is your,mine and our country mens's hard earned money (11 bn $), God has blessed up with this golden opportunity to leverage the Euro's weakness..for once can we not take heed of this or use this...then surely we will rue this later...remember when the rouble had crashed after the soviet union demise...we paid the Russian's with the older prevailing rate ..do you think that earned us any gratitude? ..I know you may have India's best interest at heart I am not sure of the same of our government..why the rush to go ahead with the deal....we have waited so long ...a month wont be too long and if greek does default...then we can take our hard earned money farther

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Oct 2011 20:56

Indaruta wrote:
Drishyaman wrote:quote="Indaruta"]If the Indian government has any sense they should wait for the euro to crash and burn and only then with heavy discounts or ask the brits to sod off/quote]

And in your sense when is the euro crashing ? You aware of the specific date ? What if the euro goes the other way round ? What will be the impact on the MMRCA deal ? You will then come and say "If the Indian government has any sense should have made the deal earlier"

Buddy, its not so easy to make predictions on currency fluctuations, even the top financial analysts have made mistakes on that.... but it is relatively very easy to criticise. :)


Dear friend ..this is your,mine and our country mens's hard earned money (11 bn $), God has blessed up with this golden opportunity to leverage the Euro's weakness..for once can we not take heed of this or use this...then surely we will rue this later...remember when the rouble had crashed after the soviet union demise...we paid the Russian's with the older prevailing rate ..do you think that earned us any gratitude? ..I know you may have India's best interest at heart I am not sure of the same of our government..why the rush to go ahead with the deal....we have waited so long ...a month wont be too long and if greek does default...then we can take our hard earned money farther


Boss all payments are not made when the Deal is struck or at fixed exchange rates. They are made at different times in future (based on payment dates forex rates) where we cannot guess what the exchange rate would be. Besides most contracts have some adjustments for exchange rate fluctuations within tolerable limits.

So signing today or next month will have much of a difference. Besides we are already late on the deal and political situations etc can change and we desperately need these multirole aircraft.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Vipul » 09 Oct 2011 03:41

IAF to seal $10.4bn mega combat plane deal in Nov.

The winner of India's $10.4-billion tender for 126 combat aircraft is expected to be announced in November, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne said Saturday.

Browne's assertion comes a day after the acquisition council led by Defence Minister A.K. Antony gave its go-ahead for the opening of commercial bids from European consortium EADS Cassidian and French Dassault, after clearing the ministry's report on their offset proposals.

"In the middle of November, we shall be able to announce to the whole world which plane we have selected, the L1 vendor (lowest bidder)," Browne said in his interaction with reporters after he inspected the 79th Air Force Day parade here.

Earlier in his address to the air warriors, Browne said: "The process for acquisition of the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) is in its last lap and we should be able to open the bids in 10 days' time from now."

However, explaining the complexities involved in finalising the winner, the IAF chief said that after opening of the commercial bids, "complex calculations" would be done in a tabular format of the entire life-cycle cost, the acquisition cost and the technology transfer.

"It may take two to three weeks to calculate these," he added. EADS Cassidian has offered its Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault its Rafale to the IAF, which is looking at inducting these aircraft from the beginning of 2015.

The two planes had been shortlisted in April this year after eliminating other competitors -- American Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian UAC's MiG-35 and Swedish Saab's Gripen -- through a rigorous technical and weapons evaluation process that lasted for over a year.

India had issued the tender for the 126 planes in August 2007 and has reached a stage of finalisation of the tender just over four years, a remarkable feat considering that it has as a norm taken over two decades for it to finalise deals for other defence equipment.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 09 Oct 2011 03:45

DAC nod to bids for $10 billion MMRCA deal
DNA India

A meeting of DAC, headed by director general acquisition, Vivek Rai, decidedto issue letters to vendors for opening of commercial proposals by the month end


Ministry of defence approves offset proposals for $11bn MMRCA tender
TOI

"All the spade work for opening of the commercial bids of Eurofighter and Rafale has now been completed. It will be done towards the end of this month,'' said an official.


It will, however, take at least two-three weeks to determine the lowest bidder (L-1) after the bids are opened. "Huge amounts of mathematical and data verification of the lifecycle costs of operating the jets over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, as well as cost of ToT (transfer of technology) will have to be done,'' he added. Final commercial negotiations with the L-1 vendor will then begin before the contract is ready for signing by early-2012.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 09 Oct 2011 03:51

Commercial bids for fighter deal to be opened later this month

"In the middle of November, we shall be able to announce to the whole world which plane we have selected, the L1 vendor (lowest bidder)," Browne said in his interaction with reporters after he inspected the 79th Air Force Day parade here.

However, explaining the complexities involved in finalising the winner, the IAF chief said that after opening of the commercial bids, "complex calculations" would be done in a tabular format of the entire life-cycle cost, the acquisition cost and the technology transfer.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Indrajit » 09 Oct 2011 08:08

Quote Philip "Shorry Shrini,posted when in my cups! Oui,Longewala was in '71 where our Hunters had a field day with the Paki Pattons."

Dear Dir,the Paki Tanks were mostly T-59s and some Shermans.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby mallikarjun » 09 Oct 2011 08:50

12 months ago i did not think both MMRCA and Telangana which are very close to my heart, will be decided almost same time or may be few weeks apart. I have to find some other things worry about now :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 10 Oct 2011 11:46

Goodness growcious!I musht be getting senile or imbibing too much! Getting Pattons,Shermans and T-59s all mixed up! Anyway,one gets the broad picture what?

V.Interesting to see the ACM say that the decision will be made by mid-Nov.Does this reflect an urgency on the part of the GOI to get cracking with decision-making,or the system making its influence felt? There was a piece in the media about the "steel frame" which assembled in strength at the UN getting its act together (a good thing said the author) in the wake of huge ministerial indecision given the infighting within the UPA/Cong.Ministers not appearing at work,senior babu posts lying vacant because of indecision in appointments,etc.In other words there is acute paralysis in the govt. with the PM ("prime mouse") allowing drift to develop as his alarm-clock is ticking.It will be a truly remarkable exercise if the decision is made Mid-Nov,but it in reality should be a straightforward one because both contenders are European.Had it been between a European and American fighter,there would've been a bloodbath! The big Q now is whether the French get the whole lot,or the cake is shared out between all,with the French getting only crumbs in the form of avionics,weapon systems ,etc if the EF wins.I wonder whose "WINTER OF DISCONTENT" it is going to be,Dassault's or EF!
Last edited by Philip on 10 Oct 2011 13:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 Oct 2011 12:42

mallikarjun wrote:12 months ago i did not think both MMRCA and Telangana which are very close to my heart, will be decided almost same time or may be few weeks apart. I have to find some other things worry about now :)


Hee hee, let me remind you we still have enough to worry about howitzers, Arjun inductions & mountain divisions to name a few.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pratyush » 10 Oct 2011 14:10

^^^

If the decision if indeed made by mid Nov. I hope that the looser does not cries foul regarding the selection process. Thereby derailing the whole project.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby krishnan » 10 Oct 2011 14:25

They would have cried foul by now.

US and Russia is being kept happy by giving them other orders.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 11 Oct 2011 03:24

India Approves Offset Deals From Fighter Bids

After the lowest bidder is identified, the proposal will move to the Finance Ministry for the first round of approvals. It then will go to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which is expected by March 2012.


March 2012 sounds a bit more realistic..

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Shrinivasan » 11 Oct 2011 12:10

^^^the only problem is, the bids expire on 31st dec 2011, if MOD desires, they need to request for a revised bid, or An extension of validity for the current bid? Will the euro birds oblidge?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 11 Oct 2011 13:26

That explains the Nov. decision.The GOI would come in from heavy criticism if post Dec. the prices skyrocketed and it would be seen as another huge scam!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Shrinivasan » 11 Oct 2011 19:31

Philip wrote:That explains the Nov. decision.The GOI would come in from heavy criticism if post Dec. the prices skyrocketed and it would be seen as another huge scam!
Impending elections in some key states in 2012 is also a reason, they wouldn't be able to announce a deal (might also become a political handicap) just ahead of the election. Also the accruing funds would come in handy for Con-grass! A possible reason for the current delay MIGHT be the Anna Effect!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 11 Oct 2011 21:20

well.. to have process maturity, we need the basic steps of have good loophole less processes in the first place. if we have no confidence in the established processes, then we have to revisit and check them to be correct.

how long can we accept this shiver-cower aam mentality of this will get worse, 'cause of that yadi yad...???

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Oct 2011 05:36

Is it possible that the since the selection of the MMRCA is near, that currency speculators are deliberately devaluing the INR? Or at least they are putting pressure on the INR?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RajSingh » 12 Oct 2011 06:03

^^

Cmmon the deal is only 10-15 Billion spread over Multiyear. Thats not too big in front of India's total yearly Global trade !!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2011 07:58

Typhoon will be the likely winner of this competition. The Min of Fin is going to get a sticker shock when they see the price, but UK and Germany are going to win in the offsets. L1 will have some bearing on the decision, but in IMHO it all boils down to the offsets.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby prithvi » 12 Oct 2011 08:06

Mort Walker wrote:Is it possible that the since the selection of the MMRCA is near, that currency speculators are deliberately devaluing the INR? Or at least they are putting pressure on the INR?


no..we put too much of self importance on ourselves

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Jarita » 12 Oct 2011 22:12

Go Bankrupt, Air Force Style

http://the-diplomat.com/indian-decade/2 ... rce-style/

While there have been news reports of the Italian relatives of a prominent political family in India showing an interest in the MMRCA acquisition, the Indian media has, as is its wont, not dared explore the possibility of any such connection. Instead, they have lapped up the Defense Ministry’s handouts, which tout the deal as giving ‘teeth’ to India’s air attack capability. That such teeth would be false teeth doesn’t seem to bother many. Thus far, the Defense Ministry has refused to budge from its policy of relying on foreign rather than Indian companies for big ticket items.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 12 Oct 2011 22:49

Interestingly, while the choice of radar has been given as the reason why the lower cost Gripen was eliminated, the Eurofighter has the exact same radar system as the Swedish aircraft, made by the same manufacturer. Additionally, the lifecycle costs of the Eurofighter are believed to be nearly ten times that of the Saab option, while the costs of the Dassault option are reportedly eight times the cost of the Gripen, for every hour of flight. This will make operation of either of the two shortlisted variants prohibitively expensive for the Indian Air Force.


I don't want to be disrespectful to an old man, but he doesn't seem to know much about fighter radars and manufacturers.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 13 Oct 2011 03:41

Go bankrupt air force style
The Diplomat

Consistent delays by Russia in procurement, slipshod service and repeated cost escalations elbowed out the MiG-35,while US reluctance to give India anything other than the 20th century F-16, as well as crippling conditions on local production sharing of the more futuristic F-18, put paid to the hopes of the Obama administration that the Indian taxpayer would bailout Lockheed or boost Boeing. That left the Saab Gripen, which was eliminated by the Defense Ministry from consideration, reportedly on the grounds that it had a less than optimal radar capability.
 
This columnist favoured the Gripen, not only because it’s much cheaper than the two other European Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) under consideration, but because Saab would have been agreeable to the location within India of far more significant chunks of aircraft production than the Eurofighter consortium or Dassault, both of whom seem seek to confine production operations of higher technology items to Europe rather than partnering with India to lower overall costs. Unlike Germany and France, the Scandinavian countries are far more willing to enter into equal partnerships with Indian industry, and hence the acquisition of the Swedish aircraft would have boosted local capabilities far more than either of the two options now shortlisted.
 

Interestingly, while the choice of radar has been given as the reason why the lower cost Gripen was eliminated, the Eurofighter has the exact same radar system as the Swedish aircraft, made by the same manufacturer. Additionally, the lifecycle costs of the Eurofighter are believed to be nearly ten times that of the Saab option, while the costs of the Dassault option are reportedly eight times the cost of the Gripen, for every hour of flight. This will make operation of either of the two shortlisted variants prohibitively expensive for the Indian Air Force.
 
Purchasing white elephants has become the sport of choice for the Defense Ministry. The Indian Navy has bought the mothballed Admiral Gorshkov from Russia at a price that will cross the $3.2 billion mark, or three times the estimate given at the time the decision to purchase this aircraft carrier was made. Like the Eurofighter or the Dassault options, the Admiral Gorshkov (now re-christened Vikramaditya and awaiting induction sometime in 2012) will be hugely expensive to operate. Of course, as the just-concluded $2 billion deal for the ‘upgrade’ of the Mirage squadrons shows, the higher the cost, the more the hidden ‘sweeteners’ are likely to be.
 
While there have been news reports of the Italian relatives of a prominent political family in India showing an interest in the MMRCA acquisition, the Indian media has, as is its wont, not dared explore the possibility of any such connection. Instead, they have lapped up the Defense Ministry’s handouts, which tout the deal as giving ‘teeth’ to India’s air attack capability. That such teeth would be false teeth doesn’t seem to bother many. Thus far, the Defense Ministry has refused to budge from its policy of relying on foreign rather than Indian companies for big ticket items.
 
Antony has presided over the biggest spending binge ever entered into by the Defense Ministry. This legacy is the polar opposite of that of previous Defense Minister V.K. Krishna Menon, who during his tenure sought to deepen ‘self-reliance’ for defence items and technology. Given the financial hole that Europe is in, the murderous expense involved in purchasing, maintaining and operating the Eurofighter or the Dassault Rafaele may be put down to charity.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 13 Oct 2011 05:02

I think these kind of articles are exactly the reason, many see us corrupt, leading to conspiracies and what not.

and wow! it took 15 years for him to realize this is a mega deal. what the heck.. it is a shame even putting that link here.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 13 Oct 2011 19:11

Don't shoot the messenger.Sometime ago,even a very knowledgable pal with an inside line,said much the same.We on BT ourselves keep asking the big Q,how much per bird? Will it be more expensive than even a more capable than an SU-30MKI? Yet again we shoudl ask ourselves what is the exotic tech that we hope to get out of this deal? AESA radars and engines? That being the case we could've just invited foreign collaborators for the same,as we are doing with the LCA! Knowledgable Europeans have been criticisng the EF for a long tiem,saying that it was designed for Cold War scenarios,and conceptually gvien the scenario today,is overkill for the job and "obsolete" .The latest issue of AWST has a superb Italian bird ,light turbo-prop aircraft ,that is meant to be a better option than even UCAVs and very cost-effective.I'm not saying that this cheap little bird is a better aircraft than an EF,but it shows the direction in which manufacturers and air forces are thinking today.
The JSF is also proving too expensive and the delays are also making nations look for cheaper and easily available alternatives.

If I was the CoAS,I would take a long hard look at the prices and life-cycle costs of the two Eurocanards,and examine/review the entire present and future force structure of the IAF very carefully,looking at all options, before taking a decision.There are other force multipliers like more AWACS,AEW aircraft,extra tankers,dedicated sats,the arrival of the FGFA,LCA MK-2 (when?) bfore deciding upon which aircraft and how many of them.There is also litte point in obtaining tech which might be obsolete in a decade or so.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Oct 2011 19:33

prithvi wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Is it possible that the since the selection of the MMRCA is near, that currency speculators are deliberately devaluing the INR? Or at least they are putting pressure on the INR?


no..we put too much of self importance on ourselves


afraid so, $10bn is less than peanuts in terms of FX transactions around the world

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Oct 2011 20:59

Ummm what expensive ?? 9 ton Rafale more than double its weight with fuel sipping engines. Just compared to mkis will save so much money on the fuel costs its self over next 40 years. We expect IAF to take on porki/panda AFs with their 95-100 squadrons with just 39.5 squadrons (that too in future). And their too we have bean counters suggesting to buy cheaper a/cs. :roll:

It may not just be AESA also manufacturing tech etc. useful for AMCA and Nirbhays.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby ramana » 13 Oct 2011 22:59

Wonder what ticked off Nalapatji?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Jarita » 14 Oct 2011 02:19

^^^ A lot of History from PNVR's time

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Christopher Sidor » 14 Oct 2011 09:09

MarcH wrote:
Interestingly, while the choice of radar has been given as the reason why the lower cost Gripen was eliminated, the Eurofighter has the exact same radar system as the Swedish aircraft, made by the same manufacturer. Additionally, the lifecycle costs of the Eurofighter are believed to be nearly ten times that of the Saab option, while the costs of the Dassault option are reportedly eight times the cost of the Gripen, for every hour of flight. This will make operation of either of the two shortlisted variants prohibitively expensive for the Indian Air Force.


I don't want to be disrespectful to an old man, but he doesn't seem to know much about fighter radars and manufacturers.


Please elaborate on this....

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 14 Oct 2011 18:47

^^^^^^

Although not my place since the question was adressed to MarcH,
the short answer is that even while coming both from Selex, the
AESA radars for the Gripen and Typhoon are being designed by
different teams of that manufacturer. The Gripen one is slightly
smaller and comes with a new antenna repositioner whereas the
one for the Typhoon should employ the rear end of the present
Captor radar. They are thus two different products from Finmeccanica.
The one for the Gripen is being built in order to both equip the NG
AND be retrofitted to the existing Gripen C/D. The other is built for
and with Euroradar and expected somewhat later.


In answer to Philip's last post, I would like to say that most of it being
quite sound, I simply cannot agree with the relative "uselessness" of the
MMRCA deal. Your comments on the EF are quite correct in the sense
that the Typhoon has yet to demonstrate full spectrum abilities ( i.e.
low altitude AtoG strike misssions for instances ) as those critics outlined.
Not so with the Rafale however. Long range strike missions could easily
reach all of Pakistan and many bordering installations in China.
In the latter case scenarii, successful raids of such nature would effectively
cripple the "panda's" ability to get at India SAFELY. When forced to launch
their aerial armada from further in the country, the Chineses will have to
make use of refueling ( what is the state of their air force in this regard? )
and that is where the Su-30s will come in play.

Another point which you raised yourself is the uncertainties concerning FOC
of the LCA ( preferably MK2 ) in the IAF. Should this come later than expected
for any reason, the usefulness of the MMRCA will become quite clear.
I have been and will always remain an admirer of India for its determination
to consolidate its legendary mathematic prowesses into modern day engineering,
especially in the case of military material procurement but let's keep cool.
The LCA is almost a development tool. It will grow into a very capable AC.
Suppose that it gets in service in time and order to replace all older types in
the IAF inventory ( i.e. Migs and Jags )? The qualitative upgrade would be
tremendous and justify the amount of rupees invested by replacing the
existing fleet with a local product. Further down the road, the FGFA/T-50 will
do the same with the high end of the said fleet as it is a joint effort between
Russia and India and thus can be partially upgraded locally too? Then will
come the AMCA to almost complete a sovereign IAF. Still, we are talking about
UPCOMING programs and we all know those may see delays, right?

Here comes the MMRCA! Let's picture the Rafale ( not simply for personal
chauvinistic preferences but as explained before in regard to needs of the IAF )
being selected. The first AESA radars are in production and the birds could be
delivered in 6 months ( best case scenario ) to a "big" year. This promises initial
training to begin on Indian soil so that when the first locally assembled planes
roll out of HAL or a HAL-Dassault JV plant, they can serve as an IOC minimal
fleet to form the first squadrons. Time is quintessential here in order to avoid a
capacity gap in the IAF as you mentioned considering China's AC numbers.

If time was a known quantity as far as development to production, the LCA would
be fully integrated in all of its aspects, that Russian hull would be India's naval
war pride, all mid-sized jet engines in the IAF would be Kaveri AND, lol big and,
the MRCA would have been passed 12 years ago ... ??? :wink:

As things stand now, the MMRCA acquisition could reveal itself the key piece in
that timeframe puzzle :

-providing a near immediate answer to the shrinking squadrons format
-giving proper leeway in completing the Tejas' induction
-offering more development of Indian manufacturing abilities
-opening the learning path towards use of PAK-FA and AMCA
-and most of all keeping China at arm's ( arms' ) length for now.

"Cause" let's face it, J-7s, FC-1s nor even J-10s won't scare the famed Indian pilots
onboard a Rafale ... :rotfl:

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. I wholeheartedly agree with you, Philip, in stating that low cost
alternatives exist to complement air power and it is surprising that
these have not been explored more as they would also provide tools
both for the now andhere and for furthering aerospace development.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 15 Oct 2011 00:50


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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2011 01:51

well this will be soon overshadowed by pakfa order. ddm needs to relax.

i hope, we double up our local (lca++/amca) investments, with more learning from this deal.

It would be so good to get real tech here.

go for the one who provides us the best technology to absorb.

Christopher Sidor
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Christopher Sidor » 15 Oct 2011 20:45

Taygibay wrote:^^^^^^
Although not my place since the question was adressed to MarcH,
the short answer is that even while coming both from Selex, the
AESA radars for the Gripen and Typhoon are being designed by
different teams of that manufacturer. The Gripen one is slightly
smaller and comes with a new antenna repositioner whereas the
one for the Typhoon should employ the rear end of the present
Captor radar. They are thus two different products from Finmeccanica.
The one for the Gripen is being built in order to both equip the NG
AND be retrofitted to the existing Gripen C/D. The other is built for
and with Euroradar and expected somewhat later.


What determines the value of radar, AESA or non-AESA, passive or active is their effectiveness. Which team is making what is immaterial. Even Su-30MKK and SU-30MKI are made by two different teams, does that imply that PLAAF's Su-30MKK are not potent or are some how inferior to SU-30MKI ?

MarchT had made some claims regarding the radar of two of MMRCA contenders. Radar is one of the most important aspects of a fighter. I would like him to elaborate on this.

Karan M
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Karan M » 16 Oct 2011 01:42

Christopher Sidor wrote:What determines the value of radar, AESA or non-AESA, passive or active is their effectiveness. Which team is making what is immaterial. Even Su-30MKK and SU-30MKI are made by two different teams, does that imply that PLAAF's Su-30MKK are not potent or are some how inferior to SU-30MKI ?


Wrong. It does matter who is making what, since experience, funding, production capabilities are all linked to the history of the design house and the manufacturer (if they are not one and the same).

The radar for the Su-30 MKK and Su-30 MKI are both of NIIP design and made by Ryazan. So literally the same overall "teams" per se, as at the organization level there is commonality. Second, the PLAAF's Su-30 MKK are indeed inferior to the Su-30 MKI. The latter has better avionics and versatility across the board, and the radar on the latter is far superior to the former, especially the radar.

The IAF knows how the Su-30 MKK avionics shape up as it has operated the Su-30 K, which had significant commonality in terms of systems. The Su-30 MKI is entirely different, even systems wise (even the FBW is different) apart from the mission sensors. Not to mention the Super 30 upgrade which will take the MKI to an entirely different class.

Taygibay
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 16 Oct 2011 02:12

But, but, huh, Christopher, I took your question as pertaining to the
bold passages mostly?
As such I believe my answer covered those.
And even your own remark since I did specify that the Gripen's radar
will be somewhat smaller? That refers to the number of MMICs that
can be fitted on it and considering lenghtwaves as the physical prerequisite
in the MMICs size, I did give the Captor as probably more efficient
since bigger and both being set on a similar mechanical repositioner.

So that those MMICs coming out of the same foundry and covering the
same bandwith, the CEASAR/AESA Captor has the upper hand ...

But sure, let's have MarcH answer then 8)

MarcH
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 16 Oct 2011 03:35

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Please elaborate on this....


Well, the article claimed that Gripen and Tiffy use the same radar system by the same manufacturer. That is wrong. Gripens ES-05 is produced by Ericsson, Eurofighters CAPTOR-E by Euroradar consortium (Cassidian, Indra, Selex).
What they have in common is their heritage (both designs based upon blue vixen) and the repositioner design from Selex for their respective AESA frontend upgrades. If they use the same MMICS or not remains to be seen. Selex competes with UMS for both antennas.


Viv S
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 16 Oct 2011 09:58

According to the MoD’s letter to the company, the Gripen NG was found non-compliant with the IAF’s tender requirements on 51 counts, of which 43 relate to the critical Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. Gripen International argues it is unfair to say the IAF has not been provided “proof of technology”, or proof that the Gripen NG’s Selex AESA radar (still under development) had surmounted the key technological obstacles needed for operationalising it in time for delivery to India. That is because Selex (in partnership with Euroradar) is also developing the Eurofighter’s AESA radar, which the IAF has accepted as technologically viable, and likely to be ready in time for delivery to India. Gripen points out that if Selex has convinced the IAF about having mastered the technology for the Eurofighter’s AESA radar, that same technology will drive the Gripen NG’s radar.

But IAF sources reveal that Gripen failed to provide proof that their AESA radar development was on track and that they could integrate it on a fighter. In contrast, Dassault had fitted two prototype AESA radars on Rafale fighters, proving they were close to completion. Eurofighter, too, test-flew a prototype AESA radar for the IAF evaluation team, convincing them it would be ready by 2014-15.


http://business-standard.com/india/news ... rn/435542/


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