India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Pogula
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pogula » 05 Nov 2011 21:21

shiv wrote: :D And the nation would have done a Bofors on those who took the decision.


Hahaha... SO true :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2011 21:32

in my opinion you can take a good airframe like rafale/EF and even if sensors or thrust are lacking, you can throw time and money on it and pull their level up in a2a.

but a airframe optimized for carrier ops, strike and low level fight (relative to eurocanards) like the F-18 would still have a hard time given growth model engines to match these birds in the a2a air dominance regime.

remember that aesa radar and amraam is a temporary advantage when selex and thales are both working out their own radars and meteor is also in testing. moreover EF carries the amraam and can carry the aim9x too. all of these euro/american aesa's should end up being substantially better in various degrees than the chinese crop of aesa/pesa radars..thats all we need to care about....granted the american model radar might be #1 but they might decide to offer a slightly downrated model like the P8A > P8I.

CFT have been demoed on rafale. EF could do it too no doubt.

stealthy weapon CFT stations and carriers is where Silent eagle given the US a early lead, but again these could well be possible for eurocanards as they do not involve much core airframe change.

rafale has a basic IRST, and needs some money for OSF2. EF was supposed to get a Pirate IRST and given money I am sure Thales can come up with a very good kit.
Last edited by Singha on 05 Nov 2011 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Christopher Sidor » 05 Nov 2011 21:36

Taygibay wrote:by Kartik
Quote:
There is no way on earth that the US will allow India to set up a dedicated F-35 assembly line here itself that will eventually manufacture them from raw material phase itself. At best there will be transfer of some technology and source codes, but never to the level to which any of the MRCA companies would be willing to give. So that is one fundamental aspect of the MRCA that we will get next to nothing from going with the F-35.


Thank you, buddy! Very few people here seem to understand that the US refused
full source codes to the United Kingdom which was their best support since WWII.
That is why the Franco-British cooperation resurrected since. So, if the yanks do
NOT share with their tier one partners, how much will they share with India?

What would the MMRCA winner be sharing with us, 4th Generation or 5th Generation capabilities? And over here you are assuming that F-35 manufacturing line would not be setup in India. We have not asked US about this and nor has any US official said that this manufacturing line would not be given. Till such a development occurs, we should have a wait and see. Just to be clear if this not on offer, then we can drop F-35.
About the source code issue, UK is essentially a poodle as far as US-UK relationship is concerned. UK needs US more than the reverse. India and US are not on the same level.
It seems to me that you are concerned more about what US might or might-not offer. But let us be clear, we have not asked them for what is on offer. We, or shall I say GoI/MoD should seriously engage with the yanks on figuring out what is on offer and on what price.

Taygibay wrote:
Finally from ChristopherSidor :
Till date none of the posters who have argued against F-35 have ever refuted some plain facts
1) F-35 is more than a match for any of the Chinese fighters in inventory, excluding J-20.
2) F-35 is more than capable of handling most of the Chinese air defense systems. The same cannot be said of EFT of Rafael.
F-35 as an option is beyond anything that MMRCA competitors have on offer.


Wow, a litany of errors man!
1)The F-35 is not a match to anything until it gets FOC and its Blocks done i.e. 2016+ minimum.

Yes I agree and when that happens in 2016 will it be equal or less equal then Rafael or EFT? And oh by the way please keep the time-lines for deliver of the winning MMRCA contender in mind before answering. And let us not forget that the initial batch of Su-30 which was delivered to IAF also lacked significant capabilities. It was only later that they were upgraded to their full and their most lethal potential.

Taygibay wrote:2)The F-35 may have a better capacity of air defenses handling but the point is moot ...
as I for one won't trust you not only because the Rafale can as of now but mostly
because I wont give credibility to someone who still cannot spell the name of a plane ...
that has been in service for over ten years, very sorry Qristougher, :wink:

Defeating air-defense systems is not the moot point. It is in fact the main point. If you have info on how F-35 would be less capable than any of MMRCA contenders in handling chinese air-defenses please share it with us. We can then come to some conclusion.
And can you please elaborate why is it a moot point?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 05 Nov 2011 21:37

Will wrote:
Rahul M wrote:>> J-20 is a work in progress. But if we do not cater for its eventual arrival we will be loosing some very important time.

we already have.


Not if the PAK-FA/FGFA comes in reasonable time. You cant tell me that the Chinese can build a better plane than our friends the Russians.

err, that's what I meant. as in we already have 'catered for its eventual arrival' in the form of FGFA. any objective person would opine that IAF will operate 5th gen fighters before PLAAF. (unless it decides to induct aircraft before certification like PAF did)

Yup, mine too, sorry for my ultraIndiacentric mates here but the Greek crisis
takes precedence over the MMRCA at least at that G20 summit
as a matter of fact I can't see what they would discuss in the first place. heads of state are not the ones who will decide the outcome at this stage. sarky's newborn baby is probably a more relevant topic for smalltalk.

Victor wrote:They can't. The J-20 is a Ruskie plane, designed and built by Ruskies in China. Chengdu has a colony of expat Russian engineers from defunct Russian aircraft firms. It is fanciful to expect a country that has (badly) copied every Russian design to suddenly design its own 5th Gen fighter out of the blue. Doesn't happen in the real world. What is important is that china has gobs of money. Russia doesn't.
Victor, that's bunkum, sorry to say. there is absolutely no evidence that russians designed J-20, if at all such a thing is possible. developing a 5th gen aircraft requires expertise over a wide variety of domains, you CANNOT get that by just lifting a few 2nd or 3rd grade russian scientists (the top grade has been retained by russia with appropriate remunerations).
china is nothing if not ambitious and while their level may not match that of russia they are hardly incapable of developing a low end 5th gen aircraft. for that matter I fully expect the AMCA to roll out by 2018 and fly by 2020. I also expect it to be a better system overall than J-20, esp in A2A.
I do not share your views about mythical capabilities of J-20, it is a strike fighter optimised for stealth with unknown avionics capabilities. that's it. we would have better aircraft and possibly before PLAAF gets its first J-20.

china has money russia doesn't is BS of the same variety, MIC has been one of russia's primary money spinners and the cutting edge has been lavishly funded since the start of czar putin's era.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arunsrinivasan » 05 Nov 2011 21:38

Q to the gurus - having spent $2bn on the M2K upgrade does it make sense from a economic & logistics perspective (spares / maintenance etc) to go with EF? Alternatively does Rafale get any advantage from a the M2K upgrade? Apologies if this has been answered before - since the price difference is reportedly marginal, I had this doubt.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2011 21:48

afaik the Growler is not on the table for sale to any NATO ally yet, let alone India. the US is happy to depute some naval air arms Growlers on land like it did in Libya ops to help out.

some of the next-gen electronic attack, self-defence and SEAD features to be seen in USAF/USN JSF will likely not be for export at all.

ECM and ECCM is one area where the US likes to keep tight control and retain the best for itself...afaik AN/ALE-50 never exported, likewise for AN/ALR-94....

so JSF might be super in USAF/USN hands with their national security kit and within their ecosystem but might not be as capable in exported lands.
Last edited by Singha on 05 Nov 2011 21:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pogula » 05 Nov 2011 21:49

The numbers below are estimations and based on open source (online) information (edited with corrections from Rahul & Singha). I have ignored the 3rd Gen interceptors across all 3 airforces (including MiG 21 variants that will be phased out in the near future).

But, I uploaded this to show some users on this thread that there is a desperate necessity to fill up gaps in IAF's multirole capabilities ASAP! Seeing the numbers below for multirole fighters in IAF as compared to PLAAF and PAF, I wonder how anyone can say IAF can afford waiting any longer for other alternatives to MMRCA.

We need over 100 multirole aircrafts to fill the gaps and MMRCA (especially Rafale, imho) is the only way forward to get that job done. As far as near-future inductions in PLAAF and PAF (like the J-20 and so on) are concerned, India has its share of inductions in the works too (like Tejas and FGFA). It is not right to compare MMRCA to those future projects.

Image
Last edited by Pogula on 05 Nov 2011 22:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2011 21:52

Pogula, the PAF has around 20 JF-17 not 60 at present and the uptime of the Mirage3 fleet is quite weak...but those are minor nits.

what I find surprising is you have left out the huge number of Jag+Mig27 in our account. sure they are not a2a capable but can strike quite hard when deployed in enough numbers....so pls add that to the M2K. out of the new lot of 39 Jags ordered I think atleast 25 must have been delivered by now.

our Bison number is 120 iirc not 150. not sure if any old Mig21Bis sqdn still exists or all gone now. FLs are likely all gone.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 05 Nov 2011 21:53

The JSF would have been a no show when all the a/c in the MMRCA were undertaking the tough trials set by the MMRCA tender.
A big fat 0 out of the >600 parameters. So why didn't the US offer it? just seem to be like after thoughts, and hoping to distract us from the T50. A good idea to keep them hoping as an insurance if, heavens forbid, we have problems on the Ru front.

Like the NG was "so called present" but actually a "shadow" product. Lots to prove in its intended capabilities.

So why do we fall for this JSF offer as an MMRCA possibility?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Nov 2011 21:54

Singha wrote:afaik the Growler is not on the table for sale to any NATO ally yet, let alone India. the US is happy to depute some naval air arms Growlers on land like it did in Libya ops to help out.

some of the next-gen electronic attack, self-defence and SEAD features to be seen in USAF/USN JSF will likely not be for export at all.

ECM and ECCM is one area where the US likes to keep tight control and retain the best for itself...afaik AN/ALE-50 never exported, likewise for AN/ALR-94....

so JSF might be super in USAF/USN hands with their national security kit and within their ecosystem but might not be as capable in exported lands.


I believe Growlers are in the pipeline to Oz

"In 2008 the Australian Government requested export approval from the US government to purchase up to six EA-18Gs,[40] which would be part of the order for 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets.[41] On 27 February 2009, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon announced that 12 of the 24 Super Hornets on order would be wired on the production line for future fit-out as EA-18Gs. The additional wiring would cost A$35 million. The final decision on conversion to EA-18Gs, at a cost of A$300 million, would be made in 2012.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_EA-18G_Growler

India could get them if it wanted to but the SH platform would be another logistics nightmare now that EF/Rafale are the shortlisted planes.

I don't think the Euros have an equivalent to the EA-18 else they would not have needed to ask the US in Libya.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Nov 2011 21:57

rajanb wrote:The JSF would have been a no show when all the a/c in the MMRCA were undertaking the tough trials set by the MMRCA tender.
A big fat 0 out of the >600 parameters. So why didn't the US offer it? just seem to be like after thoughts, and hoping to distract us from the T50. A good idea to keep them hoping as an insurance if, heavens forbid, we have problems on the Ru front.

Like the NG was "so called present" but actually a "shadow" product. Lots to prove in its intended capabilities.

So why do we fall for this JSF offer as an MMRCA possibility?


You may recall LM's 'offer' to 'replace' (meaning trade-in) F-16s with JSFs when the latter came on stream. Since that is not what the IAF request was, it never went anywhere.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2011 22:00

indeed. electronic attack in NATO is a US dominated playing yard with EC-130, RC-135, EP3, E3, Prowlers/Growlers and F-16CJ (specialized sqdn in germany)

the only dedicated SEAD a/c in western europe stable appears to be the HARM equipped Tornado ECR. italy, germany and uk have some. UK had the nimrod ELINT birds I think.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pogula » 05 Nov 2011 22:01

Singha wrote:Pogula, the PAF has around 20 JF-17 not 60 at present and the uptime of the Mirage3 fleet is quite weak...but those are minor nits.

what I find surprising is you have left out the huge number of Jag+Mig27 in our account. sure they are not a2a capable but can strike quite hard when deployed in enough numbers....so pls add that to the M2K. out of the new lot of 39 Jags ordered I think atleast 25 must have been delivered by now.

our Bison number is 120 iirc not 150. not sure if any old Mig21Bis sqdn still exists or all gone now. FLs are likely all gone.


I did think of the strike/bomber jets and ignored them for this comparison. I did so across all 3 airforces, so if I add the Jags and MiG 27s to IAF, then I would have to add numbers to PLAAF and PAF as well, which pretty much counters the move. Anyway, this is just a very rough guesstimate. Not really trying to be accurate or anything. I just wanted to make a point that IAF is desperately in need of more multirole fighters.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2011 22:02

more than J-8 and J-7 imo it would be more meaningful to add our strike birds, add the JH7 likewise for china and delete the J-8 and J-7 from the tibet account.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Christopher Sidor » 05 Nov 2011 22:04

Cosmo_R wrote:
rajanb wrote:The JSF would have been a no show when all the a/c in the MMRCA were undertaking the tough trials set by the MMRCA tender.
A big fat 0 out of the >600 parameters. So why didn't the US offer it? just seem to be like after thoughts, and hoping to distract us from the T50. A good idea to keep them hoping as an insurance if, heavens forbid, we have problems on the Ru front.

Like the NG was "so called present" but actually a "shadow" product. Lots to prove in its intended capabilities.

So why do we fall for this JSF offer as an MMRCA possibility?


You may recall LM's 'offer' to 'replace' (meaning trade-in) F-16s with JSFs when the latter came on stream. Since that is not what the IAF request was, it never went anywhere.

The problem was that if IAF had allowed this swap, then other contenders would have protested. One of contenders had offered to upgrade the engine of its fighter in mid-trial and even that was refused. Moreover by that time countries like UK were not cutting down on F-35 order so USA were on a stronger wicket. Now equations are modifying to our advantage.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 05 Nov 2011 22:04

^^^ really poor data pogula. even unreliable wikipedia would serve you better.

here's a rough one you can use.
PLAAF
60 JH7
180 J8
190 J10
120 J11
76 Su-27
76 Su-30
700 Total

IAF
60 Mig29
50 m2k
125 Bison
140 MKI
40 Mig27UPG
70 Mig27ML
110 Jag

675 Total

what gap ? 25 ? we can live with that. will china bring in all fighters from the far east and declare open skies for USAF, USN, USMC, RoCAF and JASDF ?? :mrgreen:

out of the new lot of 39 Jags ordered I think atleast 25 must have been delivered by now.
all delivered by 2010, line has moved on to hawks. 37, not 39 btw.

we were offered something growler-lite IIRC.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 05 Nov 2011 22:07

Cosmo_R wrote:
rajanb wrote:The JSF would have been a no show when all the a/c in the MMRCA were undertaking the tough trials set by the MMRCA tender.
A big fat 0 out of the >600 parameters. So why didn't the US offer it? just seem to be like after thoughts, and hoping to distract us from the T50. A good idea to keep them hoping as an insurance if, heavens forbid, we have problems on the Ru front.

Like the NG was "so called present" but actually a "shadow" product. Lots to prove in its intended capabilities.

So why do we fall for this JSF offer as an MMRCA possibility?


You may recall LM's 'offer' to 'replace' (meaning trade-in) F-16s with JSFs when the latter came on stream. Since that is not what the IAF request was, it never went anywhere.


Cosmoji,

When I buy something, and it is going to be replaced by a product whose abilities I haven't been able to evaluate, then I would be cautious.

Even if I accepted it I would insist on certain conditions, or all my money back.

But that is not the issue. I have a gap to fulfill in my defense. Which I would think cannot be valued in terms of price. So would I even consider it?

Isn't a 4 gen bird in hand worth more than a 5 gen bird in the bush?

Salesmen will be salesmen, thats their job. :wink:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 05 Nov 2011 22:11

Pogula wrote:I did think of the strike/bomber jets and ignored them for this comparison. I did so across all 3 airforces, so if I add the Jags and MiG 27s to IAF, then I would have to add numbers to PLAAF and PAF as well, which pretty much counters the move. Anyway, this is just a very rough guesstimate. Not really trying to be accurate or anything. I just wanted to make a point that IAF is desperately in need of more multirole fighters.

for starters, why is the IAF su-30mki in the air superiority bracket, it is the best multirole fighter all 3 air forces considered ?

why are the J-7's in the list, which are meaningless wrt India. why is the JH-7 not there ? why isn't the mig-21bison in the multirole category ? it is nothing like the J-7's it has been clubbed with, it has BVR, helmet guided WVR shots and PGM capability. etc etc.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2011 22:12

per wiki we ordered 17 in 1st Jag lot and then another 20 = 37. perhaps you meant 37 not 27?
half were single seater and half two seater.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 05 Nov 2011 22:13

yes typo corrected.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 05 Nov 2011 22:15

@ arunsrinivasan
Yours is the most logical view.
I sincerely doubt that India would have paid that much if
it did not expect to gain from commonality.

@ Christopher Sidor
The time line for the Rafale is 6 to 12 months from now
for F3+ standard WITH AESA. Once again those are being produced as we write.
And yes, the F-35 should be ahead of the Rafale if only
for the superior stealth. The Typhoon may very well be
up to par as Rafale by 2016(read -18) but it should not be as versatile.

The moot comes from two things the first being the fact that F-35 won't face
Chinese air defenses for quite a while yet.
Then that the Rafale has demonstrated its SEAD abilities already.
In Libya when France declined the U.S. offer of Growlers on the first day(s) of
Operation Harmattan and in Al-Dhafra when it did SEAD routinely
whereas F-16CJs were unable to, having been tasked in another role.
The adaptation to the Chinese scenario is more of the resort of the IAF
but will constitute one of those cases where ToT can be applied as in :
The IAF operates the AC and Dassault/Thales/France gets access to the
threats signatures and incorporate those to the SPECTRA suite for India.
SPECTRA works, now, enough said.


About the source code issue, UK is essentially a poodle as far as US-UK relationship is concerned. UK needs US more than the reverse. India and US are not on the same level.

The very facts that BAe is a major contributor to the Lightning II and that
the codes denial brought even rumors of Rafale for the Royal Navy suffice
to show a) how little the USA can be trusted and b) that the poddle has
bared some teeth and may yet take a nip at that star-spangled hand.

What would the MMRCA winner be sharing with us, 4th Generation or 5th Generation capabilities?

Two remarks :
Primo, 4th gen vs 5th gen is advertising talk, those definitions being loose at best.
Secundo, 50% plus of 4th gen beats 5% of 5th gen tech transfer.
Tertio, the sharing can begin now?

BTW, mate : will it be equal or less equal then Rafael or EFT?
Again? Learn the minimal rigor and spell it right, please.
Rafael is an Israëli company and ExternalFuelTanks are available on both MMRCA contenders. :idea:

:) Tay.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Nov 2011 22:21


Cosmoji,

When I buy something, and it is going to be replaced by a product whose abilities I haven't been able to evaluate, then I would be cautious.

Even if I accepted it I would insist on certain conditions, or all my money back.

But that is not the issue. I have a gap to fulfill in my defense. Which I would think cannot be valued in terms of price. So would I even consider it?

Isn't a 4 gen bird in hand worth more than a 5 gen bird in the bush?

Salesmen will be salesmen, thats their job. :wink:


Who's disagreeing?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rohankumaon » 05 Nov 2011 22:24

Though I sincerely believe that talking F-35 here is OT, would still like to just put what was said by an evaluating officer of IAF. He said that if US was serious about this offer then they should have brought F-35 in the contest rather than F-18 and F-16. I do not have source for it but can dig it, if it is required.

Thus, people can say say that thus F-35 would have been a straight forward choice but I would interpret this statement in this way that IAF has some certain parameters and certain time frame in mind for evaluating the fighter. If certain capabilities are delivered by this amount of time and at this cost, IAF would take it. Thus, it seems that F-35 may be offering greater capabilities but not in the particular time frame. Many of us would say that F-35 delivery times are same but then why F-35 was not on the offer for trials. It may very well be delivered by the earlier timelines but then it may not be. IAF saw Rafale and EF and made a professional judgement that these capabilities would be delivered in certain time frame.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 05 Nov 2011 22:37

sorry what is the F-35's unit cost again ? secondly, US has so far said *nothing* about ToT or production in India and heaven knows they have had enough opportunity to make the point if they wanted to. it's not as if they do not know what MRCA requirements are.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Guddu » 05 Nov 2011 22:45

FWIW, I think we will go ahead with the MMRCA and get the F-35 when available. Its only money..we are talking about.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2011 22:51

the only entry point for F-35 is if the US gives us a easy time on ADS2 with EM cats, power plant (gas turbine & diesel) and E2-D++ and pls throw in a soft loan too.
and even there it will have to fight with Rafale...which will have a strong advantage if Rafale is chosen for MRCA.

the other entry point (shudder) is if we totally screw up the AMCA and cannot deliver a FOC'ed product in 2025 latest, which means 2022 is latest for IOC which means 2015 is when we need to first flight this bird. looking at manpower shortages, Tajes mk1 and mk2 work etc it is looking like a pretty tall order

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pogula » 05 Nov 2011 22:54

Singha wrote:Pogula, the PAF has around 20 JF-17 not 60 at present and the uptime of the Mirage3 fleet is quite weak...but those are minor nits.

what I find surprising is you have left out the huge number of Jag+Mig27 in our account. sure they are not a2a capable but can strike quite hard when deployed in enough numbers....so pls add that to the M2K. out of the new lot of 39 Jags ordered I think atleast 25 must have been delivered by now.

our Bison number is 120 iirc not 150. not sure if any old Mig21Bis sqdn still exists or all gone now. FLs are likely all gone.


Singha wrote:more than J-8 and J-7 imo it would be more meaningful to add our strike birds, add the JH7 likewise for china and delete the J-8 and J-7 from the tibet account.


Rahul M wrote:PLAAF
60 JH7
180 J8
190 J10
120 J11
76 Su-27
76 Su-30
700 Total

IAF
60 Mig29
50 m2k
125 Bison
140 MKI
40 Mig27UPG
70 Mig27ML
110 Jag

675 Total


I edited the table with the changes you guys suggested. Also, I ignored interceptors since they are being phased out soon in all 3 airforces.

Rahul M wrote:what gap ? 25 ? we can live with that.


I was comparing just multirole aircraft numbers across the board, and not the total inventory numbers as a whole.

Rahul M wrote:will china bring in all fighters from the far east and declare open skies for USAF, USN, USMC, RoCAF and JASDF ??


The same holds for India too. We can't use all our fighters against China either, leaving out western corridor open to the Pakis.

Rahul M wrote:for starters, why is the IAF su-30mki in the air superiority bracket, it is the best multirole fighter all 3 air forces considered ?


It is used by IAF as their primary Air Superiority Fighter as far as I know. It does have capabilities beyond that role, but moving it into the list of multirole fighters will anyway create a gap in the Air Superiority department. So, whether you look at Su-30MKI as an ASF or MRF, the gap still exists.

Rahul M wrote:why are the J-7's in the list, which are meaningless wrt India. why is the JH-7 not there ? why isn't the mig-21bison in the multirole category ?


Got rid of legacy crafts all together since you and Singha had issue with it. And I know the Bisons have had their share of upgrades, but lets face it, they are on their way out and considering them in evaluation and analysis of future IAF needs is unnecessary imho. Anyway, my focus was on Multirole Fighters, where the Bisons don't really add to the equation in the long run.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2011 23:03

offensive A2A - 70+120=(190) su27 vs 140 su30mki + 60 Mig29 = (200)
A2G - 190 J-10+ 100 su30 + 60 JH7=(350) vs (270) M2k/Mig27/Jag
let us consider the Bisons as purely defence CAP A2A
and leaving out the A-5 as even the pakis have retired it, the PLAAF will likely not clutter the limited bases in tibet by bringing this obsolete plane in.

its a close match as you can see if every sinew is used and we'd still have 125 Bisons as the 2nd line of defence and to cover the TSP front somewhat.

but I do not think tibet has the infra near border to host and operate 650 a/c of different types su27 , su30, jh7, j10 and neither can we deploy all the above near the border due to lack of bases...

imo it will be around 300 vs 300 ... and whoever has the better logistics, pilot pool, deeper store of weapons, ELINT, ECM , radar coverage and SEAD will have upper hand.
Last edited by Singha on 05 Nov 2011 23:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Multatuli » 05 Nov 2011 23:05

Rahul M wrote:

Will china bring in all fighters from the far east and declare open skies for USAF, USN, USMC, RoCAF and JASDF ??


South Korea, Japan, and the US are not likely to come to India's aid in case a war breaks out between India and China. However, it's more then likely that the Packee's would try to use the situation to their advantage.

I therefore think that China could afford to commit all of the modern aircraft in their inventory to the Indian front.
I also think that it serves no purpose to bring in the Japanese, South Korean and American air power into this equation, none of those countries would risk war with China to help defend India. India will have to deal with China all on her own. Nothing new here, this what India has done since the dissolution of the USSR. Sure, the US may move a carrier or two closer to China but that will be all the "help" India will get.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 05 Nov 2011 23:06

Cosmo_R wrote:

Cosmoji,

When I buy something, and it is going to be replaced by a product whose abilities I haven't been able to evaluate, then I would be cautious.

Even if I accepted it I would insist on certain conditions, or all my money back.

But that is not the issue. I have a gap to fulfill in my defense. Which I would think cannot be valued in terms of price. So would I even consider it?

Isn't a 4 gen bird in hand worth more than a 5 gen bird in the bush?

Salesmen will be salesmen, thats their job. :wink:


Who's disagreeing?


Apologies Cosmo if it came across as an argument. Was just expounding on your post is all. Cheers.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pogula » 05 Nov 2011 23:20

Singha wrote:its a close match as you can see if every sinew is used and we'd still have 125 Bisons as the 2nd line of defence and to cover the TSP front somewhat.


But, IAF is preparing for a 2.5 front war (Pak, China, Internal) and hence a close match with China leaves us short on the other front. If anything, IAF needs the MMRCA to counter the Sukhoi birds from PLAAF. Rafale or EF on the Chinese front would help divert the MKIs to the western front. I agree that Bisons make a very good 2nd line of defence.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 05 Nov 2011 23:30

Multatuli wrote:
Rahul M wrote:

Will china bring in all fighters from the far east and declare open skies for USAF, USN, USMC, RoCAF and JASDF ??


South Korea, Japan, and the US are not likely to come to India's aid in case a war breaks out between India and China. However, it's more then likely that the Packee's would try to use the situation to their advantage.

I therefore think that China could afford to commit all of the modern aircraft in their inventory to the Indian front.
I also think that it serves no purpose to bring in the Japanese, South Korean and American air power into this equation, none of those countries would risk war with China to help defend India. India will have to deal with China all on her own. Nothing new here, this what India has done since the dissolution of the USSR. Sure, the US may move a carrier or two closer to China but that will be all the "help" India will get.

who said anything about said countries coming to India's aid ? :roll:
FYI I didn't mention korea.
PLAAF can't leave the skies over shanghai, beijing and the highly industrialised coastal areas undefended no matter what. because the distances are too great for the fighters to shift front at short notice. even now the bulk of their air force continue to be stationed in those areas.
this is in fact the modern version of a classic problem from pre-modern era warfare, a defender of a fort with lesser amount of forces than the attacker can still afford to defend it because he can shift around his forces as required. his lines of communications are within the fort and hence smaller while those of the attacker have to go around the fort and hence longer.

pogula, do note that the vanilla su-27's and initial J-11's are markedly inferior to the MKI, they are roughly equivalent to our unupgraded mig-29's with better range and payload but only rudimentary A2G ability. even the su30MKK significantly lags behind the MKI.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Multatuli » 06 Nov 2011 00:37

Rahul sahib, I still don't think that there is a real military threat from Japan, Taiwan or even the US to China, and since India (IN/IAF) can certainly not reach their cities in the east, the Chinese do not require a reserve to protect their economic hearthland in the East.

Since it's certain that the IAF will order another 60 or so MMRCA, why not order them with the first 126? Gives us more bargaining power.

The point has been made that the Rafale, at present, is more multi-role then the Typhoon. Many have argued that France is a more reliable country for India.

However, if we look at the industrial/economic benefits that Germany offers then the scale tips in favour of the Typhoon.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Nov 2011 00:56

Will wrote:You cant tell me that the *deleted* can build a better plane than our friends the Ruskies.


Can we now officially start referring to neighboring states as ahem, "deleted" states? or may be "soon to be deleted"? I suppose Backspace has definitely been pressed for at least one of said states. Really funny thing is it is pretty much a self-delete :D

CM

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kartik » 06 Nov 2011 01:06

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Kartik wrote:Boss, no offence but stop peddling the Super Hornet here now.


I'm not peddling the SH, I'm pointing out the flaw in the argument that was presented. If IMMEDIATE availability was so important, they would have gone for the SH. If they're willing to wait a little for EF/Rafale, why not wait a little more and get a truly substantial leap in capability?


Why is the SH available immediately and not the Rafale or Typhoon ? The F-414 EPE engine that was offered for the MRCA is ready is it? Tested and ready to be deployed ? Are those conformal fuel tanks ready ? Is the IRST solution suggested as part of the 'International' program ready ? And I'm not referring to the ridiculous drop tank IRST solution but the one shown on the Super Hornet mock-up at AI-11.

France or Germany/UK could just as easily transfer a squadron or so of the fighters intended for them to the IAF to begin their familiarization till their own fighters start arriving.

And I'd like to ask why is it that the USN is still buying the F/A-18E/F and not waiting a little more to get a truly substantial leap in capability (if that is the F-35C that you're referring to).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Nov 2011 01:10

by Cain_Marko
If Saab could have an NG ready for demo,

But? They did not, mate? They sent the DEMO NG, not an NG yet and even
then the AESA trials had your evaluators move to Sweden.

But Tay my good man, the DEMO was at least largely representative of the final product and as such both SAAB as well as the IAF were satisfied enough to allow it trials. If the Silent Hornet could have made it to that stage of readinesss instead of a mock up, it would at least not have been such a mockery and f*** up.

I won't dispute the fact that complex alternatives exist as you suggested BUT
the ToT disappears mostly and your estimates are a bit off as in the M2000-5

Not completely accurate. M2k-5s will carry much of what Rafale can carry.

type of weapons yes, payload half that of the Raffy, no omnirole possible
and the availability still depends on those Qatari & UAE getting replaced by
the incoming Rafale first so no real timeline gains there.


There is no doubt that the Rafale is much more capable, however, the context was the weapons available, and here I think the M2000 offers some of Rafale's versatility - enough as an interim, quick induction. As far as TOT goes, it seems they alreaady have paid for M2k-5 TOT in the recently done deal. TOT for MKI has been absorbed it seems, and ditto for the MiG-29. Sure it might not be as advanced as what the Ecanards might offer, but then there is v.v. little btw an uber MKI/Su-35 and Ecanard imho.

Bet. M2k-5, MiG-29SMT, and Super-MKI, a nice 40-50 a/c can probly be inducted to stem the flow a bit. Bet these 3 types there is plenty of quality + quantity. Thereafter, the LCA should start kicking in its mk2 avatar. IMHO a solid upfront order of 200 a/c with options should be considered, which will keep the numbers from falling off. And then around 2018 the FGFA should kick in.

That one though :
is sadly very true and explains why India is a bit wary of the US
as a realistic partner, needed acquisitions are fine but trust ......


It will take a while to build a really solid relationship, but I think it is on the cards - near future.

Good day all, Tay.


And to you mate.

CM

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Nov 2011 01:17

Kartik wrote:Why is the SH available immediately and not the Rafale or Typhoon ?


Because the EF still isn't fully capable of ground attack while SH is fully capable of everything right now. And frankly some capabilities are more important than others. The AESA of the EF *might* be done by 2015, but there are always teething problems.

Also the production line is faster and more capable of rapid delivery if the need arises.

Kartik wrote:And I'd like to ask why is it that the USN is still buying the F/A-18E/F and not waiting a little more to get a truly substantial leap in capability (if that is the F-35C that you're referring to).


It's not an either/or for the USN. They are getting BOTH. As far as I can tell, India would only get one of the EF/Rafale/F-35.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Nov 2011 01:20

About MRCA though, I won't complain if they can manage to get one sqd. straight off existing stock (for training and familiarization purposes), and add to it another in 36 months after contract sig. After that manufacture in India can start in earnest.

Even so, the cost is mind boggling/

CM.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kartik » 06 Nov 2011 02:01

shiv wrote:The MMRCA is a requirement for "operational readiness" very quickly and not some glint in the eye "aspiration" for tomorrow's technology. That is different and that is being addressed with AMCA and FGFA. The disadvantage of having a dozen MMRCA threads and ten thousand messages about MMRCA is that people have forgotten what it is about.


agree completely with you.

Its tiresome to read the fantasy theories of scrap this, look at this or that instead, buy second hand fighters from everywhere instead of the MRCA, try to fit them in, buy some other fighters that were rejected because they didn't meet the IAF's requirements and what not..as if by some miracle all that will happen on time and on budget. We all know what happened with our Bison upgrade for instance..how much time it took to negotiate that and to finally get them all upgraded and into service..and the same story repeated with years of negotiations on the Mirage upgrade..

And all this while the IAF has been desperate to push this competition to its conclusion and get these into service as quickly as possible, to somehow arrest a fast eroding edge over two fronts.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nachiket » 06 Nov 2011 02:23

Regarding the aircraft lists mentioned by Pogula and Rahul da, why are the non-upgraded Mig-21s (Bis and M/MF) ignored? Sure they may be old, but they are still flying. I haven't seen any report that says they have been retired. Only the FL's are gone AFAIK. They aren't any worse than the PAF's Mirage 3s, which have been counted.


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