India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chackojoseph » 16 Nov 2011 18:29

shukla wrote:Rafale warplane deal stalled, UAE says proposal 'unworkable'

A source close to the deal blamed the current impasse on the "arrogance" of Dassault, despite French military officials saying they were confident about securing a deal and hopes of finalising the sale at the Dubai Air Show.

"There is a shared frustration in both the UAE and French leaderships at the apparent arrogance of Dassault," the source said.
.
[/quote]

If you all remember Editorial: Dassault Aviation’s Rafale push got a bug , I had said the same thing. They got to work on their attitudes. You can see arrogance in all aspects of their operations, including PR.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2011 18:43

May be the design by intent is "not for sale" but they can't say it. For example, in some crowded cafeteria or restaurants we have chair designs that is so uncomfortable.. they want you to get out of there soon.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chaanakya » 16 Nov 2011 20:16

chackojoseph wrote:

If you all remember Editorial: Dassault Aviation’s Rafale push got a bug , I had said the same thing. They got to work on their attitudes. You can see arrogance in all aspects of their operations, including PR.


Wasn't there some issue By Dassault Officials in Aero India 2011 against one IAF officer? IAF had banned their entry to Air force Premises

Added later
here's the link

On a complaint by a Dassault executive, the Indian MoD had arrested an IAF officer for accepting a bribe. However, it has now transpired that the complaint was made after an initial payment had been made out of a consideration of INR300000 (approx Euro6000) for a favorable tarmac slot for the Rafale fighter in Aero India’s static display. The Dassault executive approached the Aero India organizers after the accused officer persisted to pay up the balance. A sum of INR20000 (approx Euro 340) was the paid to ‘trap’ the officer concerned to prove the bribery demand.



.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 16 Nov 2011 20:25

Taygibay wrote:
Published: 19 Nov 2009 12:45

The date from your link, mate!

at 10/21/2011 11:51 AM CDT

and
Nov 14, 2011 15:55 EST

The dates from mine. :rotfl:


The penalty clauses are still the same as they were in 2009. :mrgreen:

The UK started reducing orders of Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets three years ago, clinching a deal in spring 2009 which allowed it to sell on part of its Typhoon contingent to Saudi Arabia.
A similar plan is being considered for the aircraft Germany has contracted to buy but now considers surplus, although finding buyers is far from certain, according to industry experts.

October 19, 2011 7:37 pm


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7a97b0b4 ... z1doNAJ19b

Right on radar number of MMICs, wrong on supercruise.


And we'd all have been delighted to see the Rafale demonstrate supercruise. It would definitely have reflected well on the aircraft in the Singaporean and South Korean competitions.

Obscure reference was an indication if you look into it.


I wish I could, but I still have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Links to the first one, please? I have asked for those numerous times.
We'll know the second for sure when bids are revealed.


That's my opinion, and not something I'm reciting off an official document. The terrain is unsuitable for mobile armor or SAMs. The height of the mountains makes it easier to hide in ground clutter and every metre of height that an aircraft performing CAP can gain is valuable. Several airbases are located at high altitudes where engine thrust is at premium, thanks to the rarefied air. And most importantly, the PLAAF inventory includes a whopping 300 Flankers and 200 J-10s today, a number that could increase by over a quarter before the MRCA becomes operational with IAF.

Fanboy is the pejorative version of die-hard fan by opposition to reasonable?


Pity. I'm just getting used to it. :mrgreen:

Main acquisition on the Rafale up to Meteor range is passive through SPECTRA, Viv.
Let the Chineses emit then ...


Acquisition can be performed through the DASS as well, but issues of resolution vis-a-vis an AESA radar will still persist. In addition, if the PLAAF aircraft are sporting an AESA of their own, detecting it will be challenging, getting a tracking solution very unlikely. Even the SPECTRA will be able to acquire only emitting targets and others within range of its IRST. Silent PLAAF units networked to a Sukhoi or AEW&C will remain invisible. And finally, the Rafale will show up eventually on the Chinese fighter/AEW&C radar screens, and will be forced to undertake evasive maneuvers while providing mid course updates to the missiles its launched.
Last edited by Viv S on 16 Nov 2011 21:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 16 Nov 2011 20:49

abhischekcc wrote:MMS is an American nationalist. His 'pacifism' is relevant only when he wants India to not resist American aggression in its neighhbourhood. IOW, his pacifism is directed towards pakistan because this helps USA. And his desire to arm India (against China) is also in line with American policy to make the two Asian giants butt heads.

Both his 'pacifism' and his 'aggression' are dictated by American policy goals, not Indian.


Not to floccinaucinihilipilificate your theories, but does he also wear red, white and blue boxers?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby archan » 16 Nov 2011 23:29

^^ lets keep the S/N ratio up guys.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby khukri » 17 Nov 2011 00:17

And Dassault snatches defeat from the jaws of victory once again...!

UAE Says France's Rafale Deal 'Unworkable'
By PIERRE TRAN
Published: 16 Nov 2011 09:00
  
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - The industrial terms in the French effort to sell the Dassault Rafale fighter to the United Arab Emirates were "unworkable," Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed, deputy supreme commander of the armed forces, said Nov. 16.

EMIRATI OFFICIALS CITED the terms, specifications and price among the reasons for declaring France's Rafale package "unworkable." (Dassault Aviation)
"Thanks to President Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," bin Zayed said, according to WAM, the Emirati official news agency.

"Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said.

Dassault had been "at the forefront of our considerations," he added.

Dassault officials were not immediately available for comment.

France has been negotiating to sell 60 Rafales to the United Arab Emirates to replace its fleet of 60 Mirage 2000-9 fighters. The United Arab Emirates has been seen as the best prospect for the first export order for the fighter jet.

A Rafale order, however, was seen by the Emirati authorities as a political favor requested by Paris for domestic reasons.

"This is not a requirement," a Gulf source familiar with the talks said. "It was pushed as a political purchase."

Emirati authorities are unhappy with what they see as French industry's failure to "understand the political nature" of the deal.

That has led deep dissatisfaction in the United Arab Emirates with the entire package, including the terms, specifications and price.

"The price is ridiculous," the source said.

The United Arab Emirates has responded by issuing a request for proposal to Britain for the Typhoon, following an Oct. 17 briefing on the combat aircraft built by the Eurofighter consortium. Emirati officials had already requested information for the Boeing F-15 and F-18, as well as the Lockheed Martin F-16.

"This is now an open competition," the Gulf source said. "It is going to take months to go through the offers and compare the data."

No deal is expected in the near future.

There was a sense of unease among Emirati officials over the French "mechanism," seen as lacking coordination between the various parts of the offer.

Sarkozy's October appointment of foreign minister Alain Juppé as lead in the Rafale talks was seen by Emirati officials as a sign of distress and belated realization of a need to bring order to the fighter negotiations.

French media have reported that Sarkozy had been determined to secure a first export order for the Rafale, widely seen as a flagship of French aeronautical excellence and a much needed foreign revenue earner for the public purse.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 00:34

UEA has no requirement whatsoever so to speak about Air combat enemies. It can terrorize the whole planet with oil resources. Any price can't be ridiculous for them.. it has to be something else.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20292 » 17 Nov 2011 01:05

SaiK wrote:UEA has no requirement whatsoever so to speak about Air combat enemies. It can terrorize the whole planet with oil resources. Any price can't be ridiculous for them.. it has to be something else.


1. The French are usually pretty high and mighty and so I can understand people's reluctance to work with them and trust them with ease. They quit the Eurofighter consortium, negotiated like asses on the Mirage 2000 deal with India, etc. etc. etc. I can understand the UAE's discomfiture with working with the French.

2. If you or I am going shopping for tomatoes, and there is Martha Stewart also buying tomatoes at the same time and in the same aisle as I am. I will naturally wait and see what type of tomato, what price, what deal she gets from Walmart. I would not like to get a bum deal, especially since I have the opportunity to see an expert buyer like her in action.

Connect the dots.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sukhish » 17 Nov 2011 02:34

spot on,
everybody is looking at India, the way india goes so goes the UAE. India has very close relations to UAE.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 02:49

:rotfl: .. martha stewart will pay $5 per tomato while you may pay only $.5. now, we are going orthogonal to the thread topic.. bottom: no connection here, as Indian needs are totally different, and UAE and desh have different parameters of purchase, from ToT to usability of these machines.

for example, we might want to integrate with existing phalcon system.. that UAE has no clue.

spot off.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20292 » 17 Nov 2011 02:58

sukhish wrote:spot on,
everybody is looking at India, the way india goes so goes the UAE. India has very close relations to UAE.


yes. India is pretty important. The standards that our elite hold ourselves to is very clear to the rest of the world. IIT, IIM, Tata, IAF, Indian Navy, wagarah wagarah.

Its very clear that the decision that we are going to be taking in a months time is well considered and thoughtful. See the number of tests of the MMRCA that have been done.

India has some sense of fairness and honesty, and is not brutally self interested. We can never do an Israel on Pakistan or China. China might; the amount of self centered brutality that East Asians have shown and tend to show, is not the Indian way. For eg. the Japanese in WW2, China since ancient times has had internecine wars and massacres of extraordinary brutality . For reference see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wa ... death_toll

Since we are one of the few nations who is at peace with, has the support of and is trading in arms and ammunition with all current and past blocs and factions; a. Russia/FSU b. Israel c. Europe d. US. It is certain that our decisions, our technology and joint ventures, our strategic motion, our training in weaponry, will be looked up with interest in the corridors of power in most countries that matter.

Hence, what UAE is doing is not surprising.

It will be interesting to see how the CPC responds to this. They have painted themselves into a strategic corner by being 1. very nationalistically self centered 2. Copying the hell out of other nations arms and ammo 3. Supplying rogue states with weaponry.

Thus, even though India spends 1/4 of the PRC in the future, as India has a technologically superior force, the support of many nations, and a good tall fence with China {Himalayas}, I dont see much happening in the India vs China front anytime soon.

N.B: Spot on/off/absent: Their deal is very close in timeline of conclusion that ours is. The middle east is influenced by us, its our backyard. We undoubtedly have an influence there, even though we have not exercised it formally through diplomatic channels. The TOT and other details are secondary to the main, viz, "which aircraft-EF/Raf/F-teen"

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 03:09

I want to like your projections, but these are not on the plate:
1. The middle east is influenced by us.
2. timelines are close, hence we establish any other type of relationship
3. ToT matters, and is not secondary. It is primary to this deal.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20292 » 17 Nov 2011 03:14

I forget where I read this (DEW/Flightglobal/Ares) , but Bill Sweetman also commented on this (UAE) story with the same view.

He said that the UAE flip flop on the Rafale is related to the MMRCA which will be a "bear of a contract" to execute.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 03:26

can you please provide the link. thanks.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20292 » 17 Nov 2011 03:27

yaad aa gaya!! Ares!

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest



Bill Sweetman wrote:
Ploy, or a serious move? The UAE will have to look like they are serious if they want to see a counter-offer that will put real pressure on the French.

It seems to me that there's a lot here that rides on India. Whoever wins India (and I will say again that I am not sure if I am more sorry for the winner or the loser, because the contract will be a bear to execute) has a fast track to AESA, multi-role, and globalised production and support. That has to be worth money to customers like UAE, who will otherwise be leading the process.
11/13/2011 3:41 PM CST

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2011 03:32

okay.. that blog is an opinion. now, you can't go by that at all.. GoI has not given out any kind of information who will win this deal. All you might know, that EADS may be the loser here. 50-50.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20292 » 17 Nov 2011 03:54

SaiK wrote:okay.. that blog is an opinion. now, you can't go by that at all.. GoI has not given out any kind of information who will win this deal. All you might know, that EADS may be the loser here. 50-50.


you're right.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 17 Nov 2011 04:11

Lancashire BAE job losses ‘can’t be stopped' fear (with or without Indian order)

REDUNDANCIES at BAE Systems “probably won’t be stopped” even if a deal with the Indian Government is struck, according to trade union officials.

Phil Entwistle, Unison organiser, said: “We’ve known that the deal announcement is imminent for about a month, but everybody is still concerned.

“If we do get the Indian deal it would benefit both Samlesbury and Warton, but it could take up to two years before we’ve cut the first piece of metal.The planes might not be ready until 2019. I can’t see it helping this round of redundancies really.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sukhish » 17 Nov 2011 06:07

mahadevbhu,
you said it right. the test trials which india has done for years is a good benchmark. with a hostile security environment , what ever india selects, other know it would have to be
good for them as well. india has been very fair to all suppliers in this deal. french think that whatever they make is exotic and hence customers have no other choice but to buy.
china is very stupid. but that's what happens when you don't have democratic governments and power is shared by very few. they can't even talk in the same wavelength.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 17 Nov 2011 07:42

shukla wrote:Lancashire BAE job losses ‘can’t be stopped' fear (with or without Indian order)

“If we do get the Indian deal it would benefit both Samlesbury and Warton, but it could take up to two years before we’ve cut the first piece of metal.The planes might not be ready until 2019. I can’t see it helping this round of redundancies really.


:-o He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. The MRCA RFP called for an off-the-shelf delivery of just 18 aircraft starting within 36 months of the contract being signed i.e. at or before the start of 2015 (though its possible that the IAF will lease an additional squadron or so of EFs, possibly T1s later traded in for T3s, to tide it over, like it did with the Jaguar and Su-30MKI), with the remainder being built by HAL. Of these 18 aircraft, if the UK gets a proportionate allotment, BAE will be building/assembling just 6 aircraft. Given that their current production rate is about 20 aircraft/year, delivering 6 units by 2015 will hardly be a burden. Oh and its not likely to save any jobs either.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 17 Nov 2011 08:08

@Viv_S

Budget pressures halt Eurofighter Tranche 3B talks, says Cassidian boss
“There is nothing on the agenda this year or next year," Zoller said ...

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/budget-pressures-halt-eurofighter-tranche-3b-talks-says-cassidian-boss-354941/

Which led to this :
BAE reveals dramatic cut to Typhoon production rate
"The four partner nations in the Typhoon programme have agreed to slow production rates to help ease their budget pressures," said BAE chief executive Ian King.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bae-reveals-dramatic-cut-to-typhoon-production-rate-362594/
So that yes, there are plans as mentioned :
With UK defence exports having totalled around £6 billion in 2010 - when it was second only to the USA in terms of total exports - and security systems around £2 billion more, selling on the global stage is a vital requirement at a time of domestic squeeze. Current targets include closing a proposed government-to-government deal to supply Eurofighter Typhoons to Oman, and a campaign to offer the same type for India's medium multi-role combat aircraft deal.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/industry-face-post-sdsr-questions-at-uks-dsei-361694/
“... and the program has renewed its efforts to secure serious export sales. Their success will affect the platform’s modernization plans…”

were the last sentences of my initial link’s news that you may have
forgotten to read and dated from 14 as to 16 today, nov. 2011.
But it still is a reduction from original procurement.
You’re dally-dabbling.
India is crucial for both planemakers.
EF because of cut orders.
Dassault for lack of export and as we have learned today, stupidity.

About the IAF’s intention to use the planes as AtoA, I will need more than
an opinion. But the analysis you made if that was so is not flawed and
I already answered 3 times.

About silent acquisition of targets and your AWACs comment,
I darn well hope India can procure more of those since it is a need.
All ACs from now on are to be networked.

The true event of the day as regards the MMRCA still is not
that you like my thinghy is better than your thinghy contests
but rather that Dassault’s revealed arrogance should be used
by Indian negociators, either to leverage on Dassault or
through it on the consortium.


Good night all, Tay.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 17 Nov 2011 08:11

iirc dassault got a $1b bailout from French Govt last yr. maybe they are not that ambitious in sales and confident of milking the french govt with more bailouts as the french AF really has no other option if it wants to remain in existence.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 17 Nov 2011 08:22

Cross Posted BKSahu's post from the International Military Aviation thread:


Shootout: Who makes better weapons
http://indrus.in/articles/2011/10/10/sh ... 13097.html


Being around during the '65 and '71 wars astounded me how the "inferior" (AS PER WESTERN SOURCES) Russian equipment really delivered fatal punches. More so in '71.

The point I am trying to make is the west oversells. A dangerous flaw in a predominatly private MIC that they have. I am sure the IAF, during the MMRCA selection process would have been able to separate the chaff from the grain. In other words, buckets of salt would have been used in selecting a/c with true capabilities.

While Rafale is coming across as being arrogant, the tiffy guys are deaperately trying to beef up the results of wrong forecasts and save jobs. Rather a tricky situ for us.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kartik » 17 Nov 2011 10:25

Viv S wrote:
:-o He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. The MRCA RFP called for an off-the-shelf delivery of just 18 aircraft starting within 36 months of the contract being signed i.e. at or before the start of 2015 (though its possible that the IAF will lease an additional squadron or so of EFs, possibly T1s later traded in for T3s, to tide it over, like it did with the Jaguar and Su-30MKI), with the remainder being built by HAL. Of these 18 aircraft, if the UK gets a proportionate allotment, BAE will be building/assembling just 6 aircraft. Given that their current production rate is about 20 aircraft/year, delivering 6 units by 2015 will hardly be a burden. Oh and its not likely to save any jobs either.


They will be producing parts for the SKD and CKD kits that HAL will initially assemble. There will be a substantial number of MRCA's produced in the form of assembly from SKD and CKD. So, even though they may only manufacture 18 fully assembled MRCAs, they will get a lot of work.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20292 » 18 Nov 2011 07:08

SaiK wrote:okay.. that blog is an opinion. now, you can't go by that at all.. GoI has not given out any kind of information who will win this deal. All you might know, that EADS may be the loser here. 50-50.



saik, we should start thinking of the middle east as our backyard, sooner rather than later.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailycha ... /diasporas


forget all arab and muslim ummah brotherhood aside....in my experience arabs respond very positively to indians and are easy to do business with.

even though fanatacism underpins their religion, ties that we have are more founded on common, similiar culture.

arabia is closer to india than most posters on BRF tend to think .

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 Nov 2011 07:26

mahadevbhu wrote:
SaiK wrote:okay.. that blog is an opinion. now, you can't go by that at all.. GoI has not given out any kind of information who will win this deal. All you might know, that EADS may be the loser here. 50-50.



saik, we should start thinking of the middle east as our backyard, sooner rather than later.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailycha ... /diasporas


forget all arab and muslim ummah brotherhood aside....in my experience arabs respond very positively to indians and are easy to do business with.

even though fanatacism underpins their religion, ties that we have are more founded on common, similiar culture.

arabia is closer to india than most posters on BRF tend to think .



Yeah I remember how Mo Bin Qassem whatever discovered Pakistan in 1273

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 18 Nov 2011 07:29

:rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby uddu » 18 Nov 2011 07:30

Means Arabs (the people with Arabic culture in their blood instead of Islam) are closer to Indians whereas Islam and Islamist just the opposite.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 18 Nov 2011 07:54

Kartik wrote:
Viv S wrote:
:-o He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. The MRCA RFP called for an off-the-shelf delivery of just 18 aircraft starting within 36 months of the contract being signed i.e. at or before the start of 2015 (though its possible that the IAF will lease an additional squadron or so of EFs, possibly T1s later traded in for T3s, to tide it over, like it did with the Jaguar and Su-30MKI), with the remainder being built by HAL. Of these 18 aircraft, if the UK gets a proportionate allotment, BAE will be building/assembling just 6 aircraft. Given that their current production rate is about 20 aircraft/year, delivering 6 units by 2015 will hardly be a burden. Oh and its not likely to save any jobs either.


They will be producing parts for the SKD and CKD kits that HAL will initially assemble. There will be a substantial number of MRCA's produced in the form of assembly from SKD and CKD. So, even though they may only manufacture 18 fully assembled MRCAs, they will get a lot of work.


I'm aware of that, but AFAIK details about the timeline for setting up HAL's assembly lines haven't been released publicly (?). Point was that EF Gmbh will be required to deliver a squadron off-the-shelf starting 2015, and given their output capacity and workshare, BAE is unlikely to excuse itself from the proceedings. So there's really no question of deliveries commencing only by 2019.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2011 08:20

the part of BAE which does final assembly and testing of the a/c might not get much...a share of the first 18 and thats it. the airframe component suppliers , engine makers, weapons makers, avionics will always supply their stuff regardless of who does final assembly.

must be a intricate supply chain stretching back to small cos making nuts, bolts, spars, panels, paint, rubber seals and so on....

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20292 » 18 Nov 2011 08:36

uddu wrote:Means Arabs (the people with Arabic culture in their blood instead of Islam) are closer to Indians whereas Islam and Islamist just the opposite.



i mean to say that as long as you dont bring "jasbat" of islam / hinduism and all into the conversation, the middle east is very very pro india. they are certainly not paki at all. decent people. cooperative. under indian influence . and look at indians with affection/admiration/respect.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shiv » 18 Nov 2011 08:43

mahadevbhu wrote:
uddu wrote:Means Arabs (the people with Arabic culture in their blood instead of Islam) are closer to Indians whereas Islam and Islamist just the opposite.



i mean to say that as long as you dont bring "jasbat" of islam / hinduism and all into the conversation


What does "jasbat" mean?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 18 Nov 2011 08:54

Taygibay wrote:@Viv_S

...
were the last sentences of my initial link’s news that you may have
forgotten to read and dated from 14 as to 16 today, nov. 2011.
But it still is a reduction from original procurement.
You’re dally-dabbling.
India is crucial for both planemakers.
EF because of cut orders.
Dassault for lack of export and as we have learned today, stupidity.


What I'm saying is that you wouldn't hear about any cut in French orders for the same reason that EF members can afford to wait while looking for orders, i.e. current production is slated to run well past 2015, and a T3B commitment isn't imminent. But only persistent optimist would expect all intended 286 aircraft, to actually end up being ordered by the French MoD. And if they do in fact do so, at the current rate, deliveries to the French military will carry on till 2030! Even India's domestic MRCA production isn't expected to run past 2025.

About the IAF’s intention to use the planes as AtoA, I will need more than
an opinion. But the analysis you made if that was so is not flawed and
I already answered 3 times.


The IAF will use them as the situation calls for it, which could well be CAS over the deserts of Rajasthan. What I'm saying is that the most significant challenge posed to the IAF today is from the massive (and still rapidly expanding) PLAAF. The seriousness with which the IAF (and IA) brass is watching it, is evident in the urgency with which infrastructure and assets in the North-Eastern region are being upgraded (including reactivating several high altitude airstrips which may end up serving MRCA detachments).

About silent acquisition of targets and your AWACs comment,
I darn well hope India can procure more of those since it is a need.
All ACs from now on are to be networked.


I was actually talking PLAAF aircraft. Nothing prevents them from flying silent while networked to their Flankers and AEW&C aircraft, effectively invisible to the DASS/SPECTRA. Exclusively scanning for EM and (weather sensitive) IR emissions leaves the aircraft blind to everything else in the sky. When operating sans AEW&C coverage, the IAF's MRCA isn't likely to have the luxury of flying silent, there's no way around that.

The true event of the day as regards the MMRCA still is not
that you like my thinghy is better than your thinghy contests
but rather that Dassault’s revealed arrogance should be used
by Indian negociators, either to leverage on Dassault or
through it on the consortium.


While one can't say the same with certainty about the current bidding process, I'm concerned that the MoD may rue granting Dassault leverage, when its time for a MLU.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 18 Nov 2011 10:35

The tie-breaker goal kicks are:
1- cost (including life-c)
2- weapons config
3- ToT
4- upgrade hurdles
5- assimilation points

So, there is no coin-toss. imho

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 18 Nov 2011 14:01

India to wrap up MMRCA deal in 4 weeks: IAF Chief
ZeeNews

IAF will make public in four weeks the winner of India's biggest-ever Rs 42,000 crore military contract to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said here. "We are calculating very hard. There is a lot of work going on. I expect (in) another four weeks, we should be able to wrap it up", Browne told reporters here amid intense flurry among the two remaining contenders Eurofighter and Dassault's Rafale.

"By mid-December we should have very good sense of who has been selected", he said after inaugurating the 51st conference of Indian Society of Aerospace Medicine (ISAM) at the Institute of Aerospace Medicine here. Asked if he expects cost escalation vis-a-vis the contract, the Air Chief Marshal said, "I can't tell you anything till the time we finish that work".

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 18 Nov 2011 14:15

@Tay & Viv_S: you chaps have 4 weeks to slug it out. :D

Huge relief that we are at least moving forward now. Phew!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 18 Nov 2011 14:25

^^ Statements like these will actually put the Bureaucrats on their toes.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2011 14:36

anyone who fights here after the decision will face the firing squad though.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby krishnan » 18 Nov 2011 14:42

predator squad


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