India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Yagnasri » 28 Nov 2011 05:19

Basically stupid article - It is quoting some one else without any input from the writer. Does it mean any major operations today can be undertaken withour air cover? Not possible. Insurgency was not there in Second World war? It was there. Yes there is Media coverage today. So what? What will be effect of allowing arial bombing of own cities due to lack of air force? Does it not help other side? Air power effectively used can take out many things we need to live our life and send us back to stone age.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kuldipchager » 28 Nov 2011 10:16


We have SU 30 and we have LCA in pipeline and we are working Mark !! and !!!.Then why we waisting s muth fund on french/Britsh fighter.
We shuold go for SU 34 and produce more SU 30's and LCA.
SU 34/35 will be much cheaper task because they will use lot of parts from SU 30s.
I was reading other day that Mig 35 is actually is Mig29k.We don't have bad news about mig29k.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 28 Nov 2011 10:51

^^ What goes around comes around...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 28 Nov 2011 13:13

Look,like India,the Swiss also have long traditions of operating French aircraft.Therefore,as I said before,well knowing the IAF and its traditions, doctrine and warfighting expectations,it is upto the French to "lose" the contest!
It is upto Sarko and his govt. to crack heads at Dassault if there is too much of intransigence and lack of compromise from its top execs.,that is if they want to win.EF are pulling out all stops in order to secure this deal.I feel that the IAF would be happy with either,but here I must interject an important reminder and rider.

The Saudis are acquiring 70+ EFs.It is a well known fact that the Pakis provide the Saudis with pilots and that there are secret agreements netween the two in ties of crisis,where Pak can obtain from the Saudis their pilots AND aircraft! THus.if we acquire the EF,there is a string risk that some of the capabilities of the EF will be compromised by the saudis,in fact right from the start if Paki pilots fly these aircraft which will enter service with the Saudis/Paki pilots even before they are acquired by India,.This could be of crucial importance in any future Indo-Pak/Sino spat.Buying the Rafale.all other factors being equal,would be the safer bet.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Boreas » 28 Nov 2011 13:57

kuldipchager wrote:We have SU 30 and we have LCA in pipeline and we are working Mark !! and !!!.Then why we waisting s muth fund on french/Britsh fighter.
We shuold go for SU 34 and produce more SU 30's and LCA.
SU 34/35 will be much cheaper task because they will use lot of parts from SU 30s.
I was reading other day that Mig 35 is actually is Mig29k.We don't have bad news about mig29k.

There are two basic reasons to do so -

1. Long term interest - When we put all our faith in the hands of ruskies, we put them in a position of great advantage on the negotiation table. And this makes them lazy and probably less serious towards our intresets and concerns, knowing that we have no where else to go.

They are our good friends no doubt about it, but we have to also ensure that we stay there friend and not become there dependent. When we entertain multiple options it keeps them on there toes and will give hint that they have to stay competitive.


2. Technology - Say you have have heard of something called as not-bolt, using which one can attach and remove two parts at will. Now imagine you have never seen a real nut-bolt before. Will you be able to make one? Difficult, one may get lucky or one may waste decades trying to make one. BUT if you get to see and even use few of them, it will be much easier for you to make your own.

Russians have there technologies and western people have there's (which is mostly to counter russian technology). Now we want to get (and in future develop) best of the both worlds. It will be much helpful for our home grown projects if we have first hand experience and full access to both these technologies. Plus as the rumors are we may get some good ToT in this deal.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 28 Nov 2011 14:23

Philip wrote:The Saudis are acquiring 70+ EFs.It is a well known fact that the Pakis provide the Saudis with pilots and that there are secret agreements netween the two in ties of crisis,where Pak can obtain from the Saudis their pilots AND aircraft! THus.if we acquire the EF,there is a string risk that some of the capabilities of the EF will be compromised by the saudis,in fact right from the start if Paki pilots fly these aircraft which will enter service with the Saudis/Paki pilots even before they are acquired by India,.This could be of crucial importance in any future Indo-Pak/Sino spat.Buying the Rafale.all other factors being equal,would be the safer bet.


Well despite having arrogantly mucked up a sure thing, Dassault is still believed to lead the race to provide the UAEAF with its next fighter, especially if it wins the Indian order. And while the PAF has some access to RSAF aircraft through cross training and joint exercises, the UAE actually employs ex-PAF pilots to serve in their regular air force. So, at the outset assuming that the Pakistani will have access to EF data while the Rafale will be an unknown factor is over optimistic.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2011 14:37

pakis are sure to be scared by both sets of data though.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby saptarishi » 28 Nov 2011 14:40

Singha wrote:pakis are sure to be scared by both sets of data though.

nope they are not ,ignorance is a bliss,,so it is bliss for pakistanis who think that jf-17 can take on anything from mki to eurofighter :lol: :lol: :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RKumar » 28 Nov 2011 15:20

Ranjith_S wrote:A birdie tells me that there is lot of chatter in the inner circles that EuroFighter has won the IAF order. Or is it just a ploy to bring down the net cost of Rafale. We'll see soon.


normally birdie can be trusted.... It depends if Dassault can pull the same trick twice at last moment.

Eurofighter guys will celebrate their win and Dassault will be A REAL LOSER, who throw away their win. :( God may give French some sense!!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2011 15:25

either way we will get a good plane. instead of crowing about the Rafa's lo-lo-lo sliding and spectra4, we can crow about the EF's meteor and captor-e combo to swat down targets from high level :mrgreen:

for most of us, this thread has been a talisman and torment of our days in BR. we will bury the ghost and hopefully move on in our lives to better things....

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 28 Nov 2011 15:41

If the MoD and IAF prefer one of the a/c over the others and the preferred a/c is L2, then it is within the tender rules for the MoD to do a final round of negotiation between the two and say " Here are your calculated costs as submitted, taking into account our priorities. You have X number of days to come back with the best possible price."

This would definitely be valid if the commercial bids have been lying around, while technology has moved ahead and certain newer advances haven't been factored into the original price bid, but have been demonstrated and proved as deliverable within a timeframe acceptable to the IAF and concurred to by the MoD.

So I would be surprised if the IAF/MoD do not get the a/c that they want.

It isn't over till the fat lady sings.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 28 Nov 2011 15:49

Well EF has a lot of US tech controls as well US weapons deployed on Saudi EFs, i seriously doubt the US would allow Saudi's to use to Puki pilots on EFs. Puki pilots are restricted to Tornados and perhaps the Mirages. US also made sure no puki pilot even lurks close to the block 60. However, it would be hard for puki pilots to get access to the EF or Raffy because of critical US tech on board. Both also deploy good amounts of US weapons and will be deployed at bases with US presense. US has lot of ground assets in both Saudi and UAE.

With current decline in relations, they'll be careful as to who gets close to both raffy and EF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 28 Nov 2011 17:06

I think we should have both Ef and Raffy. Order 100 EFs and 100 Raffys, Raffy is the ideal replacement for the Mirage, Mig-27ML and Jags while EF is the ideal replacement for the Mig-29 and Mig-21. Increase the number of MKI to 300.

100 EFs
100 Raffys
300 MKI
200+ PAKFA
250 AMCA
200+ LCA

We are used to operating a wide variety of aircraft so that shouldnt worrry us much

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kashi » 28 Nov 2011 19:03

Septimus P. wrote:I think we should have both Ef and Raffy. Order 100 EFs and 100 Raffys, Raffy is the ideal replacement for the Mirage, Mig-27ML and Jags while EF is the ideal replacement for the Mig-29 and Mig-21. Increase the number of MKI to 300.

100 EFs
100 Raffys
300 MKI
200+ PAKFA
250 AMCA
200+ LCA

We are used to operating a wide variety of aircraft so that shouldnt worrry us much


Do you really think that HAL will be able to keep two simultaneous production lines running, churning out 20 planes a year a piece? Not to mention the nightmare of negotiating the ToT, logistics, spares and maintenance with two separate firms?

And that's only the tip of the iceberg.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 28 Nov 2011 19:36

We all know the capability of HAL. What we do not know is anything about this private industry partnership.. and FDI's are being changed. I am thinking this is all institutional crap when it comes to shove. I am seeing the larger weakness in this whole ToT setup business.. while we may be strong on the paper, production engineering is weakest link.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Aditya_M » 28 Nov 2011 19:58

Everyone who says "we should buy both" has probably never heard of logistical issues :-/

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby chaanakya » 28 Nov 2011 20:29

Aditya_M wrote:Everyone who says "we should buy both" has probably never heard of logistical issues :-/

Though I would favor one only, but if any airforce is qualified to handle logistical issues it is IAF. They handle jaguar, Mirage, MIG series, SU , IL, and now C137 and what not. But of course for same role , one type would suffice if in adequate numbers.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RKumar » 28 Nov 2011 21:36

^ I am amazed ... we are ready to make a new mistake because one mistake was made 3 decades back (most probably due to lack of money and vision). We want to have everything C3 centric but will not be able a fly a plane with all this circus.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby saptarishi » 29 Nov 2011 00:08

Philip wrote:Look,like India,the Swiss also have long traditions of operating French aircraft.Therefore,as I said before,well knowing the IAF and its traditions, doctrine and warfighting expectations,it is upto the French to "lose" the contest!
It is upto Sarko and his govt. to crack heads at Dassault if there is too much of intransigence and lack of compromise from its top execs.,that is if they want to win.EF are pulling out all stops in order to secure this deal.I feel that the IAF would be happy with either,but here I must interject an important reminder and rider.

The Saudis are acquiring 70+ EFs.It is a well known fact that the Pakis provide the Saudis with pilots and that there are secret agreements netween the two in ties of crisis,where Pak can obtain from the Saudis their pilots AND aircraft! THus.if we acquire the EF,there is a string risk that some of the capabilities of the EF will be compromised by the saudis,in fact right from the start if Paki pilots fly these aircraft which will enter service with the Saudis/Paki pilots even before they are acquired by India,.This could be of crucial importance in any future Indo-Pak/Sino spat.Buying the Rafale.all other factors being equal,would be the safer bet.



i second that.rafale is our best bet

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 29 Nov 2011 00:25

I agree with Kashi.
Septimus, the IAF could manage but ... not only would it
worsen the logistics but more important, there would be
difficulties with two HAL prod lines AND it would be much
harder for the MoD-I/GoI to negociate properly a split order.

Lets choose one and extract the maximum cooperation :)

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. Funny thing, Narayana Rao : having posted that article
on Key Pub, I got the same answer and agree of course :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby saptarishi » 29 Nov 2011 00:31

Taygibay wrote:Lets choose one and extract the maximum cooperation

this is only possible in case of eads,,in case of rafale we will cease to be a customer,,but with typhi we will be partners,,,but still i prefer raffy.....charles eldesteine plz be active in negotiations

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby MarcH » 29 Nov 2011 04:44

Taygibay wrote:Some people would not even choose between EF and Rafale :

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-air-force-modernisation-plan-126-mmrca-deal/1/161765.html

:eek:

Good day all, Tay.


Strange story. India's geostrategical situation isn't exactly comparable to the latest conflicts of the combined "western world" vs. some goat herders. And not every border conflict will inevitably result in a nuclear exchange.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 29 Nov 2011 05:09

wtf cr@p article..

The MMRCA will be India's frontline fighter only for two years and then it is expected to be supplanted by the Russian fifth- generation fighter, which, too, India plans to acquire in numbers.


where do these people get their data? do they know anything about fighter jets?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby VinayG » 29 Nov 2011 05:30

SaiK wrote:wtf cr@p article..

The MMRCA will be India's frontline fighter only for two years and then it is expected to be supplanted by the Russian fifth- generation fighter, which, too, India plans to acquire in numbers.


where do these people get their data? do they know anything about fighter jets?


Saik sahab sometimes i wonder what these guys are smoking :-o

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2011 09:20

organic dope grown in the hills of JNU :)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2011 10:10

Saik, What they are saying is the PKFA once it comes will be the frontline fighter as its stealth etc. So till then MRCA will be the frontline.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 29 Nov 2011 10:31

imu, would it not all depend on the mission that dictates what is front-line vs other roles? why would mmrca be not still be front-line after 2 years. PAK-FA to mature, would take at least 3-5 years going by the spec goals it needs to achieve. still, say we get pak-fa in 2 years, there is no reason mmrca can't be front-line fighters.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2011 10:36

PAKFA IOC is still 10 yrs away for sure if we look at history of past projects. FOC could be 15 yrs away and driven by other variables like availability of new weapons for internal bays...most of them are on paper at present as K-xx concepts.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 29 Nov 2011 18:22

Still about Switzerland competition here is a good Swiss TV report of the three competing aircrafts (rafale, typhoon gripen) :


http://www.tsr.ch/video/emissions/mise- ... seurs.html

At one point former Swiss air force chief of staff is interviewed and he tells to the journalist that the rafale is the most capable aircraft according to flight test evaluations performed by swiss test pilots and that it is clearly the preffered option for the swiss airforce. Typhoon is n°2 and gripen n°3. He also admit that this is only the air force point of view and that other factors must come under consideration (price, offsets, politics)

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 29 Nov 2011 18:36

More news from the swiss competition : rafale is officialy the choice of the swiss airforce and the clear leader as far as the technical evaluation is concerned !


Maurer will provide information about jet procurement

Basler Zeitung, Nov 29


SVP National Thomas Hurter wants to know as quickly as possible, whether the Parliament has been informed truthfully.

The reporting in this newspaper of two confidential evaluation reports about the federal purchase of new fighter aircraft has consequences at the political level.
The Schaffhausen's SVP National Councellor Thomas Hurter requires a special delivery letter from Defence Minister Ueli Maurer tonight to provide information about the veracity of the article "fighter jet Gripen with unsatisfactory grades" [post 2659] from last Saturday.
Hurter was president of the competent Commission of the National Council, which dealt with the correctness of the fighter selection process.
Upon request, Hurter said, his Commission had always stressed that all three eligible jets met the minimum requirements.One imagines that now the question is whether this information had been correct.

The two relevant test reports, "SAF/OT&E Evaluation Report … 2009" and "OT&E Evaluation Report NFA Flight Test 2008" are signed by Air Force Chief Markus Gygax. The reports include in particular for the Gripen fighter aircraft from the Swedish Saab, services that do not meet the minimum requirements specified. In several comparisons, which compare the evaluation results from 2008 for all three aircraft to those of 2009, the Gripen is under a power line of six points.[...]

Improvements considered

For example in the test area "air police" , the Gripen has scores of 4.2 (Report 2008) and 5.33 (Report 2009) under the power line of at least 6 points required. The two competitors Rafale and Eurofighter are - sometimes significantly - above the score of 6 , same results in test areas such as "air defense" and "air combat". The summary of the second report states: "The Dassault Rafale is the only aircraft that has exceeded the minimum requirements expected in all operating modes".

In the end-2009 report, are taken into account modifications and improvements planned for the period between the practical flight test phase in 2008 and the planned delivery in 2015. The report ends with the request: "The Rafale produced by Dassault is proposed as the new combat aircraft of Swiss Air Force.” Best alternative to it is the Eurofighter.
[...]


http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/sta ... y/30431448

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 29 Nov 2011 19:35

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/verbatim/4/130746/india-must-act-on-mmrca-offsets.html

This guy might have read my posts, LOL.
The emphasis is on the EF side but the main point
in his argumentation is the same :

India needs to secure the most industrial benefits it
possibly can from the MMRCA's offset and ToT.
A strong investment in the mili-aero sector should
follow the buy in order to profit for the future.

Good day all, Tay.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 29 Nov 2011 19:41

arthuro, normally red color is to highlight some negative aspects in a report.. general public mental model.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 29 Nov 2011 20:02

^^^^^

Well SaiK my friend, he might have seen it as negative ...
for Eurofighter :!: :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 29 Nov 2011 20:21

Arthuro sir ji, we understand that Rafale is the clear leader in the Swiss competition. Will you kindly just stop posting, post after post about the Swiss competition. We also know Raffy is the most expensive one, who knows if they end up buying it or not. For now, I kindly request you to restrict the posts on the Swiss deal. The deal has little impact on our deal. We may buy Raffy or EF and our deal is not dependent on any other competiton. The likely winner will be announced soon. so lets discuss technical aspects and not how the Swiss competiton is progress. No one cares what happens in Swiss cow country. For both Ef and Raffy a win of 22 aircraft deal isn't a big accomplishment.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 29 Nov 2011 20:24

The Rafale will be proposed by the Swiss Army to the government tomorrow.

The Gripen still has a chance because it's cheaper and it has support in the government. EF is out because it is considered, as usual, too expensive and not good enough compared to the Rafale.

The Swiss industrials (mainly RUAG) are in favour of Rafale since the beginning.

Here again, Dassault looks unbeatable. So my vote goes to Gripen :lol:

More seriously, the danger in Swiss is the possibility to see the question going to public vote.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby eklavya » 29 Nov 2011 20:26

MarcH wrote:
Taygibay wrote:Some people would not even choose between EF and Rafale :

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-air-force-modernisation-plan-126-mmrca-deal/1/161765.html

:eek:

Good day all, Tay.


Strange story. India's geostrategical situation isn't exactly comparable to the latest conflicts of the combined "western world" vs. some goat herders. And not every border conflict will inevitably result in a nuclear exchange.


The story is complete nonsense. He says we don't need a powerful air force because an air force can't defeat guerilla warfare.

He thinks that a combined attack by the PLA/PLAAF and PakArmy/PAF will be like guerilla warfare? Total moron ...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Nov 2011 20:26

If I am born again, next life I want to be an IAF Pilot.At least I would be flying a Rafale then, if not this life(assuming we go for Rafale eventually).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Y. Kanan » 29 Nov 2011 20:31

Not sure why Switzerland needs to buy fourth-generation fighters in the first place. F-18's and F-5's aren't enough? For Switzerland, seriously?
Last edited by Y. Kanan on 29 Nov 2011 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 29 Nov 2011 20:41

Y. Kanan,

The Swiss have always had a decent army otherwise this small country would no longer exist.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sanjeevpunj » 29 Nov 2011 20:43

They have to protect the swiss banks after all :)


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