India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 07 Dec 2011 23:04

strong support of the rafale program even without an export customer :

Longuet: Rafale production "will not stop until 2030"
L'Express , Dec 7


PARIS - The Defence Minister, Gerard Longuet, completed his remarks Wednesday on the Rafale, stating that "if Dassault Rafale does not sell abroad, in any event, production, intended for the French Army , will not stop until the year of 2030. "
Deliveries to armed forces will continue, very substantially, beyond 2020. Meanwhile, the aircraft will undergo upgrades between 2020 and 2030,"
added the minister, to AFP. Guest on "Question d'infos" , M. Longuet had said a little earlier that "if Dassault does not sell its aircraft (Rafale) abroad, the chain will be stopped and aircraft will of course be maintained. "
He added that this would happen once the French army would have had delivery of all aircraft ordered, adding that "the spread was at least until 2018." Then "it's over for the manufacturer, not the user," he noted.


http://www.lexpress.fr/actualites/1/act ... tml?actu=1

BONUS :
Rafale vs F22 HUD gun shot 8) 8)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page192

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 07 Dec 2011 23:11

Longuet: Rafale production "will not stop until 2030"

any idea of the production rate would be then without any exports?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Austin » 07 Dec 2011 23:19

arthuro wrote:BONUS :
Rafale vs F22 HUD gun shot 8) 8)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page192


Its nice to see F-22 from a different view :)

The gun shot is indeed cool and specially good for forum debate and PR stuff but it does not tell you much.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 07 Dec 2011 23:21

probably less than 10 aircrafts a year, but the idea is to maintain the know-how and you should take into account already existing aircrafts that will go back to the factory to be modernized. Also you will have a lot of room in case of an export.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 07 Dec 2011 23:37

Its nice to see F-22 from a different view
The gun shot is indeed cool and specially good for forum debate and PR stuff but it does not tell you much


Well against the extremely powerfull F22 with its TVC it is a testament of rafale maneuvrability and the quality of its aerodynamic and FCS.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Austin » 07 Dec 2011 23:44

arthuro wrote:
Its nice to see F-22 from a different view
The gun shot is indeed cool and specially good for forum debate and PR stuff but it does not tell you much


Well against the extremely powerfull F22 with its TVC it is a testament of rafale maneuvrability and the quality of its aerodynamic and FCS.


Well it just depends on the condition on which this photo was taken , F-22 is no invincible bird in the air ..... but it does not mean Rafale might actually get to do that in some real duel between the two , not the exercise stuff.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 00:33

did they exercise against each other?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kovy » 08 Dec 2011 02:29

SaiK wrote:did they exercise against each other?


yes. 6 gunfights. 1 won by the F-22 and 5 draws according to the French Air Force.
The USAF did not confirm though. My guess is that they were annoyed by the Rafale resistance during the exercise.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 08 Dec 2011 03:22

well F-22 being picked up on FSO is not anything special, matter of fact, close in, MKI, SH, EF can easily pick it up too. SH has had gun kills against the Raptor and one even had a missile kill. Also I for one don't believe any of the claimed Rafale vs EF kills or Raffy standing up to the F-22. All those articles are written by the french and pretty one sided. EF is for sure the better choice for India. Since, it seems to have met more of the parameters than Rafale in our competition.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 03:30

If you guys are saying truth, then I am already seeing the winner here. Man! what more pisskology we want? F22!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 08 Dec 2011 05:26

India may cancel fighter competetion
AviationWeek

LANGKAWI, Malaysia — Victor Komardin, the deputy director of Russia’s arms export agency Rosoboronexport, contends that the two short-listed candidates for India’s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition have effectively ruled themselves out by putting too high a price on their fighters.

India’s politicians told the local press earlier this year that the MMRCA contract was a $10 billion deal, but reports from India in recent weeks say the manufacturers of the two finalist aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, are each asking for around $20 billion to fulfill the 126-aircraft order, Komardin says.

Against the backdrop of the [financial] crisis [sweeping the world], it is hard to see how any government would allow such a waste of money, particularly when there are social problems” to deal with, Komardin says. “And there is no imminent threat to India’s [sovereignty]. My prediction is that this tender will be canceled.” Komardin spoke to Aviation Week on the sidelines of the LIMA Airshow in Langkawi, Malaysia.

India and Russia are close partners on defense. Rosoboronexport’s MiG-35 was on the long list for India’s MMRCA competition. Komardin says the MiG-35 was withdrawn from the competition before the short list was decided. If India issues a new tender, it creates an opportunity for Russia and the U.S. to rejoin the competition.


Sour grapes?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby NRao » 08 Dec 2011 05:34

Sour grapes?


I do not think so.

There are two aspects to this deal: the need for an air craft and the associated cost.

The first is done.

The second has yet to come into play. There is supposedly some base cost that they are supposed to compute, based on some criteria. IF the cost of these two proposals are too far apart with that base price then the entire thing gets rebooted. This IIRC is part of the MMRCA deal - FR and EADS should have signed up for this, they ought to be aware of this. So, if it kicks in then poooof - Rafale and Typhoon should - per rules - vanish.

However, it all started at around $8 billion, within the past year or so it had climbed to $11 billion. Seems it has reached $15+ billion - some expecting it to be around $20 billion. IF all this is true then the PAK-FA might be a far better option. Or even a FGFA.

Note that the argument that IAF needs the MMRCA has been made and substantiated. What this effort could fail on is the weight of the cost. IMHO, if it is really around $15 billion, it is not worth it. Pay FR/EADS for tech transfer for AMCA and call it a day.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Craig Alpert » 08 Dec 2011 05:38

shukla wrote:
Sour grapes?

:rotfl:
Man if this were to happen Indian Govt & more so IAF's face would hang in shame. Under any circumstances, this deal is going through!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby tejas » 08 Dec 2011 08:36

$20 billion for a fourth generation fighter? Fugget about it!! :P :P I never understood this "medium" aircraft concept to begin with. The US and USSR/Russia have heavy and light fighters the French have settled on one model does all. India is so wealthy it needs 3 models ( light,medium and heavy)? Stop enriching other countries. Spend that kind of loot on developing/acquiring engine tech. and have national programs that are well funded to develop other tech needed for the AMCA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Surya » 08 Dec 2011 08:45

Man if this were to happen Indian Govt & more so IAF's face would hang in shame


:eek:

oh really!!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 08 Dec 2011 09:17

Surya wrote:
Man if this were to happen Indian Govt & more so IAF's face would hang in shame


:eek:

oh really!!


The Indian government has asked IAF to give their choice without worrying about the associated costs of the selected aircraft.
Now, canceling the tender because of the costs will be a shameful issue for the MoD and IAF on the world's stage.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Surya » 08 Dec 2011 09:28

so that means the vendor can ask for 50 billion dollars???

Seriously???

maybe it will embarrass you

not me

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 08 Dec 2011 09:44

rupee retreating might see a reduction in unit nos by 20%. so instead of 126 we might end up with 90.

the situation would still be scary for those at the receiving end of what this lot can do ... 90 or 126. in a couple weeks such a troop could bomb a small country back by decades. they could also wipe the PAF off the plate if setup for a2a and given a free hand to 'go in' and kick some serious ass.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 09:58

I am making a college and contractor was asking me a quote per sqft, not acceptable to me. He also asked a down payment so that he can trust us. I felt offended that its not he who is doing a favour but me that I am giving him job...

What I did...I just cancelled him doing it and decided to do it myself...now if cost grows or lessens, but I am satisfied with the quality. Though when he meets me, he gives example of his other buildings and says, if you would have given it to me...I would have gotten it finished till now...example 1, example 2....He is correct there, he is faster, while I am learning nuances of the business...

But my only polite reply remains, boss I am not that rich, I have to adopt to my needs...Even if you would have gotten the job, you needed money constantly at fixed intervals...which I don't have it, so I paced my work with my liking...and there is no shame in it...or else you would have cried foul all over, they don't pay...

P.S. I am opening a college and I've to also meet a deadline this year...but then the work I am doing has been a great challenge to my caliber and I had never done it ever in such a scale...but still when I don't have money, how can I pay it, I can't and still I have to do it..., I'll have to take extra burden to live my dream and also prove a point...

Its bit personal, but all my experiences are from doing buildings, designing them and dealing with large amount of people who remain involved in the process...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Will » 08 Dec 2011 10:07

All this tendering business has proved to be crap :(. A better mechanism needs to be found. :(

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 10:24

Tendering is most standard way of evaluation and awarding contract in any form of industry and Its not crap, We have made a great headway in that...We also cant bring down a nationally driven process to our personal opine...

I just hope that being involved in such a long driven evaluation, they have grown as a collective organisation from past and do what is necessary for the moment not being in any kind of pressure of embarrassing the nation...They would have all the data, what they need, They know where Indigenous effort is placed at present, They know what is threat level...and they know where we are placed financially...

If we cancel 126 MMRCA, we'll have to still acquire 126 or more fighter from somewhere else in desired time...if Indigenous effort is not placed at that level to meet it here and there...Then the decision should be pragmatic, knowing in long term it'll be all the same...

I still think Eurobirds are a very wise choice and we must go for them, if if we have that choice with minor compromises in the numbers...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 10:29

upgrades for M2K was so high, and none complained that seriously.. now what? voice of Russia is all up to?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 10:33

SaiK wrote:upgrades for M2K was so high, and none complained that seriously.. now what? voice of Russia is all up to?


I am sure BR is one of their source...The timing is impeccable.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 08 Dec 2011 11:34

lets not so quickly say no one complained about the mirage upgrade, it was signed many years in delay only due to cost and package related negotiations. Still we endup signing it, we should have signed it with Israel, now we wont have our entire fleet upgraded till 2020. waste of time and money.

Istead of upgrade, we should have just ordered a direct buy of 60 or so Raffys to replace the mirage.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 11:38

yap yapide yup.. the reason many make money here.. upgrades!

Mig29 could have taken direct 35 path.. why did it not get the AESA radar [when Israel had not banned aesa sale then] or sea-wasp engines? ask the person who signs these contracts, and his helm of power men.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Jamie Boscardin » 08 Dec 2011 12:26

manum wrote:If we cancel 126 MMRCA, we'll have to still acquire 126 or more fighter from somewhere else in desired time...if Indigenous effort is not placed at that level to meet it here and there...Then the decision should be pragmatic, knowing in long term it'll be all the same...

I still think Eurobirds are a very wise choice and we must go for them, if if we have that choice with minor compromises in the numbers...


Yes, no doubt the Eurobirds are wise choice purely technically (probably commercially) but may not be financially.
If the UAE fighter-talk is anything to go by, then Rafale was pegged around 10Billion USD for 60 fighters with all the necessary support (training/ToT/parts supply/warranty etc etc) which even we would want.
Now, budgeting for MMRCA is already done by GOI, which was 42,000 CR INR (10 Billion USD 2 months back, but is worth less than 9 billion USD now)\
If Defense ministry decides to even increase the price by 50%, i.e. 63,000 CR INR (12.6 Billion USD as per today's market value), that's still nowhere to what the price of 126 european birds would cost, who are obviously calculating in USD terms.

So, there still exists a very high chance that the competition is still not OVER.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20067 » 08 Dec 2011 12:38

Craig Alpert wrote:
shukla wrote:
Sour grapes?

:rotfl:
Man if this were to happen Indian Govt & more so IAF's face would hang in shame. Under any circumstances, this deal is going through!


why the heck..? if you go out for bargaining for an apartment and then back off .. do you hang your head in shame?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 08 Dec 2011 12:51

Surya wrote:so that means the vendor can ask for 50 billion dollars???

Seriously???

maybe it will embarrass you

not me

Me or you getting embarrassed is not important.
IAF will loose its face and more importantly loose a chance to get the much needed capability.

FGFA is not the answer to all the IAF's future and current requirements, it is only a part of it.
We need a capable A/C to fill in the numbers. I don't see any other alternative then MMRCA to get the IAF to a potent form. The requirement of 126 modern birds from IAF is not lost. It is still there.
How can anyone think better then the IAF whether or not it needs more 4++ gen birds or not?

We can not afford another Artillery acquisition saga for our IAF too...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20292 » 08 Dec 2011 12:56

they might do some cunning accounting like keeping the 10 billion sum as the sum that is paid to the european entities, and another 10 billion is paid to HAL to manufacture the planes.

anyways.a question. if the order is split , what would you like to see as the ratio of EF to Rafales??

80 EF 46 Rafale?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 08 Dec 2011 12:58

Prithwiraj wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote: :rotfl:
Man if this were to happen Indian Govt & more so IAF's face would hang in shame. Under any circumstances, this deal is going through!


why the heck..? if you go out for bargaining for an apartment and then back off .. do you hang your head in shame?

You got him wrong.
You are not bargaining for an A/C. You down selected it and it needs to be acquired in the coming 5-6 years to augment your airforce which is supposed to phase out 3-4 hundread of its older gen A/C. The vendors already gave you the approx prices.

Speaking your logic, have you ever been in an apartment which you are supposed to vacate in a week and you can't find a new room. What do u do? Vacate and stay on the road... or in a hotel perhaps.... do you have the money for a weeks or a months stay there? Do you have the hotel rooms available?... Do they allow your luggage?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20067 » 08 Dec 2011 13:07

You got him wrong.
You are not bargaining for an A/C. You down selected it and it needs to be acquired in the coming 5-6 years to augment your airforce which is supposed to phase out 3-4 hundread of its older gen A/C. The vendors already gave you the approx prices.

Speaking your logic, have you ever been in an apartment which you are supposed to vacate in a week and you can't find a new room. What do u do? Vacate and stay on the road... or in a hotel perhaps.... do you have the money for a weeks or a months stay there? Do you have the hotel rooms available?... Do they allow your luggage?


apples and oranges basically.. do you want to pay through your noise to get a house in good locality if you have some roof over your head and may spend that money on your children's education.. prioritization of spending is not an alien term.. if hypothetically the overall cost of the deal gets doubled many of the calculations on the overall... cost benefits go awry.. we don't have bottom less pit of gold coins... that extra bit of money will come at the cost of something else..

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 13:29

But this issue of $12 billion not being enough for 126 mmrca was always there...
Since its the only issue to dwell upon now at this stage we are magnifying it to this extent...overthinking on it.

I guess we'll get what we want...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 08 Dec 2011 13:57

Actually IAF needs it. The Chief already told us that he expects the decision to be there by 2 weeks.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Jamie Boscardin » 08 Dec 2011 14:39

koti wrote:Actually IAF needs it. The Chief already told us that he expects the decision to be there by 2 weeks.


It's a question of "whether you have the means to get what you want"?
A nightmarish scenario, where-in the rupee keeps on sliding, GOI overshooting its own fiscal targets substantially, our forex reserves eroding and RBI intervening finally to stop the rupee slide, the "means" to cough up close to close to 104,000 CR INR (20 bilion dollars assuming 1 USD=52INR) seems a difficult one in the current political scenario.

GOI had already budgeted 42,000 CR INR. It has to still "budget" for the additional money (close to 62,000 CR INR). It has to budget it, no matter where/whom it ends up paying, HAL or the " winner". This is where the problem lies.

Pl do recollect the Airbus A330 MRTT which was also selected by IAF over Il-78. The entire order (valued at 1 billion USD and only 6 planes) was scrapped citing higher cost much to the dismay of IAF.
We are praying that this doesn't happen and IAF gets what they want, but its all about how much can be afforded.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 08 Dec 2011 15:08

Karnad on the "Big Deal",which is to cost $22 Billion!

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/columnis ... d/big-deal

A big deal

December 8, 2011 .aaa.Shareemailprint.. The $22 billion (and not $10 billion, as has been reported) deal for the medium-range multi-role combat aircraft (MMCRA) could become a Bofors-like political liability for the Congress Party, if it fails to get it right. Inordinate amounts of political capital and financial resources will be invested in it, and the Indian taxpayer has the right to expect that the numerous contracts will be unlike any contracts signed by the Indian government in the past. Enough money has been spent without any enduring benefits for the people to be wary of the defence ministry’s Price Negotiation Committee (PNC) that will be talking soon with the vendors of the shortlisted aircraft — Rafale and Eurofighter. The PNCs constituted for earlier deals emptied the treasury but settled meagrely for only licensed manufacture of planes. This sort of deal will be unacceptable hereon. Especially because the high stakes for Dassault and EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company N.V.) means India can ask for anything and get it.

The trouble is the status quo serves the interests of all concerned very well. The ruling party at the Centre — the Congress Party, owing to its long years in power, has signed most of the major military deals to-date — and its leaders, invariably gain from commissions reportedly channelled their way. The IAF, which has scrupulously shied away from developing in-house aircraft design and development skills and competences, values only imported aircraft because, the service brass claim, these are top-of-the-line and reliable. Consequently, it has gone out of its way to stymie indigenous aircraft development programmes. It deliberately killed the Marut-HF-24 Mark II — successor to the Mark I version widely hailed as aerodynamically the best combat aircraft of its time. Created by Kurt Tank, the great German designer of Focke-Wulfe warplanes for the Luftwaffe in the Second World War and hired by Nehru, the HF-24 programme, had it been nursed to maturity, would have resulted in a flourishing aircraft industry in the country by the 1970s. Learning nothing from that episode, the IAF today is delaying the series production of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). This is so, notwithstanding the fact that, avionics-wise, the LCA is at the 4.5 generation level, more capable than any fighter aircraft currently in the IAF inventory.

Supposed to gain from technology transferred to it, HAL is a classic under-achiever. Restricting itself to “production engineering”, HAL’s capability has calcified at the Meccano-type skill sets-level. Meccano was a toy assembly kit available up until the Sixties for seven to 10 year olds who, following simple instructions, could screw this part on to that one and come up with a crane or some such thing! Meccano no more made the child an engineer than licence manufacturing makes HAL an aircraft design and development Company. But, dog in the manger-like, it is permitted to veto technology being transferred by foreign suppliers to private sector companies that are in far better position to speedily absorb the advanced technologies, something HAL is incapable of doing. With all the players in the game eager to retain the present arrangement, it is little wonder that India gets shafted every time. The onus is on defence minister A.K. Antony to ensure that this doesn’t happen, and to instruct the PNC accordingly.

The criteria to judge if the MMRCA deal serves the national interest will be, firstly, whether Indian industry obtains, without hitch, source codes (millions of lines of software) for every aspect of the aircraft as also comprehensive flight control laws. Secondly, the contract ensures that, as a result of the deal, India is hoisted into the cutting edge technology ranks and seeds a globally competitive aerospace industry in the country. And, lastly, India secures access to critical technology outside the combat aircraft field. Contracts will have to be so written as to index large payments against the meeting of technology transfer benchmarks, such as the full and timely delivery of the codes and the laws, and the entrenching of advanced technologies in the country.

By way of offsets, both Dassault peddling Rafale and EADS the Eurofighter, have promised to set up R&D centres here. Their research agendas will have to be competitively fixed, systems of oversight established, and the extent of Indian contributions to the ongoing production and service support of Rafale/Eurofighter for global sales and to any future manned and unmanned aircraft projects, pre-determined.

Dassault and EADS are both willing to part with single crystal blade turbine technology (which allows the aircraft engine to generate more power at higher temperatures), but collaboration in developing the follow-on ceramic turbine blade technology for even more enhanced aircraft engine performance will have to be insisted upon. Manned fighter aircraft are becoming obsolete. In order to firm up future air warfare options, direct Indian involvement in the advanced Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles, being developed by Dassault in its Neuron project and EADS in its Barracuda programme, is a price both vendors would happily pay to engage India :mrgreen: in other high-technology ventures the French company and the European consortium are exploring.

Rafale seems to have an edge, owing to its Active Electronically Scanned Array radar for air-to-air missions, whereas EADS has it only as prototype. This is fortuitous in a way because France can, as an inalienable part of the MMRCA deal, be persuaded to allow Indian nuclear weapon designers access to its Megajoule inertial confinement nuclear fusion facility near Bordeaux, to help rectify the thermonuclear weapon design that proved a dud on testing in 1998, and to work on other fusion weapon configurations. This will not obviate the need for tests in future, but inspire some confidence in the Indian strategic nuclear arsenal in the interim. Such access is a must and it can be extracted, howsoever painfully, from Paris now when it is desperate to keep a aircraft design and development capability alive in France. It is an opportunity not to be missed. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


PS:I echo the sentiments of many.I also want the iAF to get the best bang for the buck,but at what cost? It is not,pardon the quote,a :"sacred cow",that must be fed " foreign fodder" only,The IN has for decades designed its own warships albeit with foreign input,but they have unmistakable Indian characteristics to their design and concepts,built at home mostly and for the better part,at more affordable cost than if acquired from abroad.The IAF from the time of the HF-24 have deliberately shunned indigenous development,and as BK has said,done very little to establish their own R&D capabilities to provide the country with an indigenous fighter.When the LCA was in its development stage,the child appeared to be a b*st*rd,which nobody wanted! A former celebrated AM,who after years of deliberation in choosing a head for the LCA programme,was still chosen to be its head with "hire and fire powers" ,confirmed finally by by the cabinet and PM,had the decision deliberatekly kept by babudom in a drawer for a year until he retired form service!

The foreign lobby is especially active in the IAF's sphere,resostign efforts to make India an indigenous aerosspace nation.Look at Brazil.When did it start its aerospace industry and where has it come,in producing both civil and military aircraft.Embraer is a household word dn now a platform for our very own AEW radar on its aircraft! It is going to be an intersting decision especially when the bean counters get going! There are going to be many critics within the cabinet especially at this stage in the economic health of the nation who would baulk at $22Bs for a 4++ fighter,when we are also acquiring a 5th-gen fighter for much smaller change.

brat
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby brat » 08 Dec 2011 17:31

small pooch.. does typhoon qualify as 5th-gen!
i am confused with what is 4th gen and 4++ gen and ..

SaiK
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 19:05

You all should see the acceptance of $12b for 126 crafts which was itself considered massive some years back. Now, repeated year after year pumping people's brain for $12b got mental model clearance. Now, they are pushing for $22b, on the same route. They need people to accept $22b for this..

..and then CAG will follow through later on. We have to see how $22b for 126 crafts, by cost breakdown.. and first thing is this true or some paid up article that is changing a shared mental model.

People should not ask about the equipment secret documents and ToT related agreements. They have to right to ask for how things we were spent, and how it answers the balance sheet.

OTOH, it could be also cleverly inducing into the cost analysis, and cancel the contract for la JSF/raptoriski.

bottom line $22b for 126 craft is a straight cancellation of the whole deal. And people thought, the process is so final stage, and this can't happen. well, it can.

We don't want that to happen, 'cause we want IAF to get one of these two crafts. And, we don't want to pay $22b for these 126 as well. It simply not worth it.

koti
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 08 Dec 2011 19:40

Is there any other source other then our Russian comrade to comment on the financial aspect of the deal?

koti
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 08 Dec 2011 19:43

But I don't know why many here are considering $20 Bln is for the MMRCA.
It makes the planes 194 Million a piece. Even 12 Billion is an overkill as the price of Rafale is assumed to be around 70 Million Max sometime back.

Compare that with Mig35 at around 40 Million a piece but it is a past matter.

Anthony Hines
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Anthony Hines » 08 Dec 2011 20:51

France Warns of Rafale's Production End


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =EUR&s=AIR

PARIS - France warned Dec. 7 that defense giant Dassault would halt production of its Rafale multi-role fighter jet if it remains unable to sell any abroad.


French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet said that if Dassault doesn't sell any Rafales abroad, the aircraft's production line will be stopped after current orders are delivered. (DASSAULT) "If Dassault doesn't sell any Rafales abroad, the production line... will be stopped" once France has received the 180 aircraft it has ordered, Defense Minister Gerard Longuet told a small group of journalists including AFP.
France considers the twin-motor delta-wing Rafale a state-of-the-art warplane but has struggled to find any foreign buyers to support the project that has so far cost more than 40 billion euros ($53 billion).

Longuet said maintenance arrangements would continue for all completed aircraft and that French Rafale orders alone would keep the production line going until at least 2018.

Then "it will be over for the manufacturer, not for the user," he said of the plane that has been deployed in NATO operations in Afghanistan and Libya.

He later clarified his comments to say production of the fighter would not in any case end before 2030.

"Production destined for the French military will not stop before 2030," he told AFP. "Deliveries to militaries will continue substantially past 2020. In parallel the plane will evolve between 2020 and 2030."

The Rafale is mainly built by Dassault, electronics company Thales and motor manufacturer Snecma, part of the Safran group. A total of more than 1,500 French companies are also involved in the program.

Longuet insisted that the Rafale remained in competition with European manufacturer EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for a large Indian contract and that "we are in tough negotiations with the United Arab Emirates."

However, Emirati officials, who were said to be in final talks with France to buy 60 Rafales, said last month that the French offer was unworkable and uncompetitive.

A U.S. cable leaked by WikiLeaks in 2010 quoted King Hamad of Bahrain as mocking the Rafale as "yesterday's technology."

Opting for the Swedish-made Saab Gripen to replace its aging fleet, Switzerland in November became the latest country to choose another fighter over the Rafale.

The Rafale and Typhoon are in the final stage of a massive duel to meet India's 126-unit medium multirole combat aircraft requirement. Final bids were opened earlier last month, with a decision possible within weeks.

Asked why Dassault was having trouble selling the plane abroad, Longuet said the multirole jet was "more expensive than American planes, which are produced in much greater numbers."

"While we order 200 Rafales for a 10-15 year program, the Americans make 3,000 aircraft," he said.

"However, for top-level missions of high military value, the Rafale is undeniably well-positioned."

Analyst Olivier Zajec with the CEIS think tank said it was unlikely production of the Rafale would end soon, as the French Air Force has a target of obtaining 286 of the planes, meaning another 17 years of production.

"I do not think they can close the production line so quickly because the Air Force has made the choice of the Rafale," he said.

Development of the Rafale began in the 1980s, and the first prototype was built in 1991. The first plane for delivery to the French military rolled off the production line in 1998.

Its multirole capabilities mean it can carry out air-ground or air-sea attacks, reconnaissance, aerial interception or nuclear strike missions.

It is made from composite materials that ensure it has a low radar profile.

It was designed to replace seven French planes, including the Mirage 2000 multirole fighter and Super Etendard carrier-borne strike fighter, both also manufactured by Dassault.


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