India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 21:11

koti wrote:But I don't know why many here are considering $20 Bln is for the MMRCA.
It makes the planes 194 Million a piece. Even 12 Billion is an overkill as the price of Rafale is assumed to be around 70 Million Max sometime back.

Compare that with Mig35 at around 40 Million a piece but it is a past matter.


you are not converting euro to doller...Rafale fighter without armament is not going to be less than $95 million so 126 of them should cost around $12 billion...armament extra.

I think the production setup cost will be inclusive of $12 billion. how?

In construction if we have lets say a concreting worth 1 crore in which if we have to pay like 2 lakh for labour cost for pouring...if we buy a concrete mixing machine worth 20 lakh, it proves to be free after construction of 1 crore worth concrete...

So $12 billion should be inclusive of production in India...This is the logic, I mean how they are going to $20 billion? any breakdown anywhere...

My calculation is $95000000x126 = 11970000000 $ i.e. 11,970,000,000.00 USD = 619,567,225,570.68 INR, excluding armaments ...This is what is rough analysis...

i.e. $95million x 126 = $11.97 billion = aprox. 62 thousand crore INR...
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 21:13

well.. let us put it this way.. even if they get the Indian order, their assembly line would be active only for a squadron. rest is all SDK to India. Their production line will be a problem if they can't sell outside India.

If they lose Indian order, it is going to be worse situation for them. But then, they know their problems now.. price! they don't want to reduce it. they don't play per market conditions.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 21:29

I don't think we need to worry about their production line, that problem is totally out of our context.

Only problem is cost, but that is long term issue...I mean we'll take 18 fighter out of shelf i.e. $1.71 billion or around $2 billion with armaments...meanwhile in supply of these 18 we'll be setting up our production facility...that will involve few billions...and then raw material will be surely supplied from dessault only, it'll keep them happy...

I think we are just magnifying the cost issue...It is what it was with few here and there...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby akula » 08 Dec 2011 21:50

If the news above ( Rafale sales affecting its prod line ) is true, then by all means GoI/MoD should put in all efforts to get the French lower down the bulk cost during negotiations. As also, imprints of technology transfer.
Dassault may just have to come down a little from their usual hard stance, due to the inability to secure orders overseas for Rafale. This is not to demean Rafale as an aircraft in any terms, it is intended from the market share perspective.

May good prevail & let IAF get the bird in its roundels!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 22:00

aaah! see, after the Rafale vs Raptor post, everyone thinks it is going to be Rafale.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Eric Thompson » 08 Dec 2011 22:11

India May Cancel Fighter Competition

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ompetition

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 22:19

koti wrote:Is there any other source other then our Russian comrade to comment on the financial aspect of the deal?

none other than Russians will be happy.. cause more orders for super 30MKI and PAKFA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 22:29

IAF’s technical report and its assessment by the MoD were put up recently to Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh and National Security Adviser Shiv Shankar Menon for the process to move forward. Both are reported to have endorsed the process as per the technical evaluation of the IAF as the user of the aircraft.
Defence Minister A K Antony had recommended the same.
Notably, so far India has bought aircraft from either Russia or France under direct Government-to-Government deals and this is the first big multi-nation multi-vendor defence acquisition process.

This time, Lifecycle Costs, Transfer of Technology, and Offsets are also part of the selection process for the Number 1 position, officially called L-1 (or Lowest-1). As was demonstrated in the Eurojet Vs GE engines for India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), it is not enough to have the lowest quote in the bid for the item but also be the lowest overall in long-term maintenance costs, tooling, support and so on.

Eurojet was lower in the initial costing but more expensive than GE when items like tooling and support were considered.

DPP 2008 also says that if the costing by the L-1 is in accordance with a band pre-determined by the MoD, then there would be no need to negotiate further with the L-1. Nonetheless, negotiations are always there to make the best of the deal at least in terms of details.

When IAF had floated the tender in 2007, it had put a figure of $ 10 billion for 126 aircraft. This may not work unless the costing was for all the aircraft in flyaway condition.

There would be spares, spare engines, support, training, tooling, Transfer of Technology (ToT), manufacturing equipment, and 50 percent offsets obligation. One way or another, the buyer is made to pay for all these.

If IAF exercises the option for 63 more aircraft as per the RfP, the value of the deal could touch between $ 18 to 20 billion. Notably, the higher the number of aircraft bought, the lower the per unit cost.

It may also be noted that in twin-engine aircraft, which both the Eurofighter and Rafale are, the cost of engines can be 25 to 30 per cent of the aircraft’s cost. In single engine aircraft like F 16 and Gripen, this would have apparently been lower.ly been lower.


from April 2011 article

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories994.htm

So the $20 billion is for 195 of them....not 126.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 22:36

still.. it is $100M approx per puppy.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 22:43

ya it is...it always was...

If you remember last 42 MKI upgraded cost was 3.25 billion for 42 mki's i.e. aprx. $77-80 million per piece, it was new price quote for new tender apart from previous ones...

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-06-26/india/28278061_1_sukhoi-fighters-mmrca

and it won't be $20 billion for 195 of them @ $95 million/rafale but $18.5 billion...at $100 million/ piece...the calculation gets effective...but the 10-20 percent of cost saving in negotiation will buy us multiple BVR's/ aircraft for entire fleet in the same cost
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 08 Dec 2011 22:48

hopefully, things will clear out of some sense coming out soon on these puppies, as to who won at what price [inclusive of those operational and stores]

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Jamie Boscardin » 08 Dec 2011 23:02

koti wrote:Is there any other source other then our Russian comrade to comment on the financial aspect of the deal?

You don't need any american/chinese/pakistani/russian to comment on the financial aspect.
A calculator, general knowledge and eye for detail is should generally see one through.[/quote]

manum wrote:My calculation is $95000000x126 = 11970000000 $ i.e. 11,970,000,000.00 USD = 619,567,225,570.68 INR, excluding armaments ...This is what is rough analysis...
i.e. $95million x 126 = $11.97 billion = aprox. 62 thousand crore INR...


If this is the flyaway cost, then you need to factor in additional cost which are part of what IAF requires or would need for sure:
- Missiles
- T-o-T (source code- a must for IAF etc)
- Training (pilots + engineers)
- Simulators etc.
I hope that it still doesn't exceed 15 billion USD at max, which could still fall in the affordable range thus getting the IAF what they require.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 08 Dec 2011 23:10

missiles are extra...as I mentioned..

TOT, training, simulators? are they going to cost a billion? or as reports are popping up...surplus of $8 billion for TOT, training, simulator...? you believe in it...

What is TOT exactly? how does it happen. what are aspects of TOT...I think is phase wise absorption of technology...It doesn't cost $8 billion nor do simulators...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Multatuli » 09 Dec 2011 00:07

'Combat aircraft contest not over'

Ajai Shukla / Linkoping/ Sweden December 5, 2011

There are celebrations at Linkoping, the home of the Gripen NG fighter, which is barely two hours from Stockholm in one of Sweden’s ultra-friendly inter-city trains. On Tuesday, the Swiss government announced its selection of the Gripen fighter for the Swiss Air Force, turning away the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.


Col. Ajay Shukla is either a fool or he is doing a lifafa job again.

The Gripen is out of the game for two reasons:

A. It hasn't got the power (single engine), range and payload the Typhoon or Rafale have.

B. Our own Tejas will take care of the role the Gripen would have in the IAF inventory.

One could add that Sweden can't offer the same partnership the EF consortium or France can (technology wise and as industrial partner in defence).

India will not bankrupt itself if it purchases the 200 Rafale's or Typhoons for USD 20 bn, this is a rather insignificant amount over a period of, let's say, 10 years, particularly if India' GDP keeps growing with 7% a year.

The IAF needs 40% of it's fighter fleet to be in the modern medium multi-role category. Medium means power (twin engines), range and payload superior to light aircraft like Tejas and Gripen, but less then the heavyweight Su-30 MKI. Multi-role means that it should be able to trash the Packee F-16, "Chinese" J-10, J-11 and J-20 in air combat as well as go deep inside enemy airspace to deliver a decent amount of ammo and fight it's way back home.

What are the "medium" fighters presently in the IAF inventory, what are their capabilities,how up-to-date are they and what is the life still left in them?

MiG-27: Ground attack only, obselete and not much life left in them. Have to retire them in next 5 years or so.

MiG-29: Air-to-air capablity only, can hold their own against F-16/J-10 in combat, not sure about the J-11 (guru's enlighten us), with the planned upgrade the IAF MiG-29 fleet will remain a capable force for another 15 years.

Mirage 2000H: Good in air combat and ground attack, the proposed upgrade will keep them up-to-date and in service for another 15+ years.
They are multi-role but only 50 left and don't have range.

IAF Jaguar: A bomb truck, underpowered/overweight, needs escort if they venture into Packee airspace.

The Tejas takes care of IAF's requirement for a light multi-role fighter and the Su-30MKI does the same for the heavy multi-role fighter.
The Tejas Mk 2 will be state of the art when it enters service and the planned upgrade for the Su-30MKI's will infuse the latest tech in the Su-30MKI's.

However there is a serious problem with the medium multi-role aircrafts in IAF's inventory. Only the Mirage 2000H is truly multi-role, but they are old, don't have the range to strikes in Chinese occupied Tibet and we don't have them in sufficient numbers.

We do have the Jaguars in somewhat sufficient numbers but they are old tech and pure bomb trucks.

The planned upgrade for the MiG-29 will add some ground attack capability to the MiG-29, still, it will essentially remain an air superiority fighter.

As for the MiG-27: the sooner it's retired the better.

India can't design and develop a medium multi-role aircraft within the next 10 years, we don't have the number of scientists and engineers yet, nor do we have the industrial base. It will take longer then 10 years for India to come up with an advanced medium multi-role aircraft, possibly 20 years or so. In the meantime most of the current fleet of "medium" aircraft in IAF's inventory will have to be retired. (Except maybe for the Mirage 2000's, because their upgrade itself is supposed to take 10 years or longer, the decision to go for an upgrade was in my opinion a wrong one, however the IAF was forced to make this decision because the low life politicians could not decide on the successor/replacement for the Mirage 2000/MiG-27/the older Jaguars in time.)

So unless we order a large number (at least 200) of high end, medium multi-role aircraft (either the Typhoon or the Rafale) now, the IAF will be left with a gaping hole in possibly the most important category of aircraft in it's fleet.

Also, there is this misconception that the PAK-FA will make the MMRCA redundant and obsolete: no it won't. The PAK-FA is a stealth fighter with internal bays for missiles and bombs, this necessarily means that it won't be able to cary a lot of missiles or bombs. Ofcourse we could use external hardpoints to carry more bombs, etc., but that would negate it's stealth advantage.

Furthermore, more Su-30MKI's are not a good alternative to the MMRCA: the Su-30MKI is more costly to operate then a lighter aircraft such as the MMRCA and because of it's size it's easier to detect then a Typhoon or Rafale. And more Su-30MKI's won't bring in the latest western technology.

We need heavies and middleweights to pound Chinese bases in Chinese occupied Tibet. They only have the range and power to deliver useful payloads, the manoeuvrabilty/agility to put up a fight when necessary and the tech to jam enemy radars/missiles.

We need advanced middleweights and lightweights to strike the Packees, this will also free up the Jaguars for tactical air strikes.

Tejas, MiG-29's, some of the MMRCA and Su-30MKI's will take care of air defense.


All the above is pretty obvious (and pedestrian, but hey, I am not Karan M. or Kartik, so leave me alone).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 09 Dec 2011 00:12

BTW, is the bump in 200 a/c justified? I would expect a bump in 200 LCA mk2. I think 126 is right for 10-12 billion. The 10b +2b was the hike done over the period of time.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2011 00:14

Interesting observations from Karnad. Echoes some of our thoguhts.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 09 Dec 2011 00:14

Jamie Boscardin wrote:
koti wrote:Is there any other source other then our Russian comrade to comment on the financial aspect of the deal?

You don't need any american/chinese/pakistani/russian to comment on the financial aspect.
A calculator, general knowledge and eye for detail is should generally see one through.


We here had all three from the past four years. It was 12 Billion deal in 2007, it is 12 Billion now for 126 A/c.
What is it that we need to see through now that we failed to see through these four years?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 09 Dec 2011 00:39

I think, there is an unnecessary dhoti shiver campaign against trusting indigenous capabilities. It is high time, we get tabled what ToT means here.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 09 Dec 2011 00:44

The Gripen is out of the game for two reasons:

A. It hasn't got the power (single engine), range and payload the Typhoon or Rafale have.

B. Our own Tejas will take care of the role the Gripen would have in the IAF inventory.

One could add that Sweden can't offer the same partnership the EF consortium or France can (technology wise and as industrial partner in defence).
quote]

Don't be ridiculous. Gripen NG has more than enough power and range. It can supercruise, is fitted with the same GE F414 engine that LCA mk-2 will have and is just as killer an aircraft. Not to mention that the GE engine is by far one of the most reliable ever made in the history of jet engines. It's only draw back is a single engine. The aircraft itself is cutting edge and comes at a acquisition and life cycle cost nearly half that of the other euro birds. None of the euro canards can offer complete tot without Unkil's final blessing, they all have good amouts of US made critical parts.

Atleast Gripen has more orders than the Raffy and on any given day a safer bet since we might be the only customers for raffy if it actually wins. There is avery big risk of this deal going south due to the high costs involved.


Yes lca mk-2 can do similar roles but there is no reason why they cant co-exist.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby manum » 09 Dec 2011 01:17

cant you say anything without using adjectives...

Why don't you go back and read the start of discussion thread to advocate Gripen...If you want I can find you email of NDTV Vishnu for you, you guys could catch up...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 09 Dec 2011 01:51

Septimus P. wrote:Yes lca mk-2 can do similar roles but there is no reason why they cant co-exist.

sure, they can co-exists at air shows. btw, do you realize why would not Russia buy Raptor or America buy PAK-FA? There are other aspects of home grown security that can never be gotten from imports. Imported defence equipments are like step-dads and moms (metaphor).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 09 Dec 2011 03:57

manum wrote:cant you say anything without using adjectives...

Why don't you go back and read the start of discussion thread to advocate Gripen...If you want I can find you email of NDTV Vishnu for you, you guys could catch up...


Vishnu has far more an idea about these aircraft than any of us on the forum. He has practically flown in all of them. Fact remains Gripen NG will be far cheaper to acquire. My personal favorite is the EF however, looking at the possible costs, high chances are the deal will be scrapped. There will certainly be severe opposition about the cost.

No I do not say anything without using adjectives.

Silly, the F-22 is not for sale even to Russia. PAKFA is not for sale even to US. Speaking of step dads and moms, we have only had them for years, after all these years, bringing in a real father or mother will not suddenly decrease love for the stepmoms and dads who stood by IAF. IAF is used to step moms and dads, a sudden outcry from a real parent will take time to adjust to. Besides it will take a long time before the step mom and dads are out of our defence industry.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 09 Dec 2011 04:02

Septimus P. wrote:Vishnu has far more an idea about these aircraft than any of us loosers on the forum. He has practically flown in all of them.

Just because Vishnu flew, does not make us losers! what do you mean by that?
btw, Vishnu is not an ex-IAF or combat pilot.

:evil:
---

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 09 Dec 2011 04:08

SaiK wrote:
Septimus P. wrote:Vishnu has far more an idea about these aircraft than any of us loosers on the forum. He has practically flown in all of them.

Just because Vishnu flew, does not make us losers! what do you mean by that?
Vishnu is not even an ex-IAF or combat pilot to trash everyone here on the forum.

:evil:

what i mean is that practically none of us has ever even got into a fighter jet, we are happy staring at them at air show and read specs and articles. Atleast Vishnu can say he has flown is the highest number 4.5 gen aircraft in the planet? And in every jet he was given the opportunity to take the stick and control the aircraft. so yeah not trashing everyone here, just saying that practically none of us here have any practical idea of what we talk about, including me. Many of us have very good amounts of know how which is gr8 but flight exp. is still flight exp.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 09 Dec 2011 04:09

Let us get back to MMRCA, and not Vishnu. I don't want this go astray.

Please consider editing calling everyone on the forum as losers! before the breaper arrives.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kartik » 09 Dec 2011 04:14

Septimus P. wrote:Just because Vishnu flew, does not make us losers! what do you mean by that?
Vishnu is not even an ex-IAF or combat pilot to trash everyone here on the forum.

:evil:

what i mean is that practically none of us has ever even got into a fighter jet, we are happy staring at them at air show and read specs and articles. Atleast Vishnu can say he has flown is the highest number 4.5 gen aircraft in the planet? And in every jet he was given the opportunity to take the stick and control the aircraft. so yeah not trashing everyone here, just saying that practically none of us here have any practical idea of what we talk about, including me. Many of us have very good amounts of know how which is gr8 but flight exp. is still flight exp.[/quote]

I've flown in the cockpit of a 737 and an A-320 in the jump seat. That makes me capable of telling which is better than the other other based on some cockpit features and differences between the two that I was able to note ?


Unless a fighter pilot who knows how to evaluate a fighter can tell us which is better than the other, what you're going to see is a jingo level of knowledge only.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 09 Dec 2011 04:16

Every one is jingo here, including Vishnu. /please

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20067 » 09 Dec 2011 04:58

SaiK wrote:Every one is jingo here, including Vishnu. /please


why is this Vishnu Di ? :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby nachiket » 09 Dec 2011 05:39

The thing is Vishnu himself has never claimed that the Gripen is the best, to my knowledge. He only reported on his own flying experiences and said that he liked flying in the Gripen more than the others.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rahul M » 09 Dec 2011 05:56

Prithwiraj wrote:
SaiK wrote:Every one is jingo here, including Vishnu. /please


why is this Vishnu Di ? :rotfl:

vishnu som of NDTV and more relevantly, BR jingo.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Karan M » 09 Dec 2011 07:18

Of all the types in the competition, the Gripen NG was the worst for the IAF & for India, as a whole, in my personal view. It offered almost zero political independence with a huge portion of its systems and weapos sourced from the US (in which case why not buy American to begin with). Was the least mature of all competing types (even the MiG-35 was better in that it had a flying AESA prototype installed on a fighter), made many PR claims which didn't bear out (payload to range for instance was evaluated by Kartik on this forum, and he found several discrepancies in statement to statement with juggling going around MTOW and max fuel carried, its much touted datalink is useless for India as we are implementing our own national data link), it has very limited deep strike capabilities without loading up on huge FTs compromising on aircraft performance or air dominance missions (it neither had the payload/range advantage that a fighter like the Rafale brings nor does it have the sensor range, discrimination and specific excess power/air dominance capability of the EF).

Finally, this aircraft was clearly competing with the LCA. Anybody who thinks otherwise clearly did not follow the umpteen articles rubbishing the LCA and loudly praising the Gripen that quite coincidentally appeared in India media at a time, when the LCA MK2, which can quite grow into the NG space, was shown to be a serious funded effort.

All said and done, in three evaluations - per public information - the Gripen NG has had three separate users come to remarkably similar conclusions about how while it may be a "cheaper fighter", it does not exactly offer the mature and substantial combat abilities they are looking for. These include the Netherlands campaign (where the Dutch said the F-35 could fight the T-50, the Gripen NG could not. Relevance for India? The J-20 and advanced Flankers), Brazil (google for Brazilian Parliamentary official & professional journalist Pedro Rezende, where the Brazilians said exactly what India did, the radar and tech of the Gripen NG was immature), and now, Switzerland (where the Swiss AF, ranked the Gripen NG the least capable of all the three types that competed, and they took some 600+ parameters into evaluation, google for Defense News and Gripen team details and the NG was offered to Switzerland). That it was chosen on cost, is not exactly relevant to India which faces far serious threats (advanced Flankers, J-20 and F-16 Adv variants).

Yes, Gripen ran a very effective PR campaign and it continues to do so, ferrying journalists to Sweden, showing the aircraft off, offering joyrides (compare and contrast to Rafale), but the IAF's frontline aircraft has to be something that can face the best that China can field over the next 30-40 years, and comes with significant technology and strategic benefits to India. Not a "cheaper fighter".

It also speaks volumes that India's own industry, when it had to seek professional advice and third party consultancy, on a paid basis, for the LCA, first went to Dassault, then Lock Mart, then BAE, and now is with EADS and BAE after Boeing could not meet requirements (legal problems). Nowhere did the makers of the Gripen manage to beat out the other vendors in a fair race. The Indian HAL radar when stuck, was fixed by Elta. Not the Gripen radar makers. Tomorrow, when we field the LCA MK2 radar, we'll again go directly to the radar vendor with best experience, we don't need a system integrator to tell us what is what either. Why in anybody's name, and this is what is so bizarre, since it should be obvious, would Gripen, PR apart, support a possible competitor. If anything, given the extremely limited orders for the NG, it would seek to supplant the LCA in Indian service (80 -140 units required) and if the advertorials in Indian media were anything to go by by the make Canberra's, ditch Sukhois, ditch LCA sort of experts, that was exactly the advice being dished out

I for one, am glad, the IAF, run by absolute professionals, chose the two best aircraft in the MMRCA contest and did not go by vaporware "gyan" of our self proclaimed strategic experts - some of who in their heyday called the Su-30 acquisition a mistake ("why does India need such a heavy plane"), want the LCA cancelled as versus making idiotic concepts of Canberra's acting as missile platforms (with no clue of how badly such a platform would face against an integrated IADS) and our new breed of high visibility journalists, who sad to say, have even bemoaned why India should conduct such an "expensive evaluation" and whether it is unfair to those not selected etc.

Needless to say, what the IAF has chosen so far, the Rafale and the Typhoon, are the two top of the line platforms that can actually contribute the maximum positive impact to the Indian AF and industry. Both come from countries that can offer political benefit. Both are part of industries that can deliver the best possible long term offsets programs as well and have the heft and scale to actually make a difference to Indian aerospace if the offsets are used well.

Dassault, EADS, Gripen's manufacturers, MiG, everyone are in the business of making profits for their shareholders and remaining as viable enterprises. Not for meeting Indian expectations of "cheap fighters". You get what you pay for. After seeing the fracas that has been Indian procurement, it is any day better to accept high upfront costs, with all the reasonable estimates baked in, assured logistics and long term support as versus paper claims of "cheap, inexpensive" etc only to have to costs keep going up due to underestimation (happened to a ship and a submarine project) which end up costing far more in the long term.

The entire point of the MMRCA was to give the IAF an advanced fighter that could meet current and emerging threats, in a timeframe where it can be made operational ASAP.

I sincerely hope some people stop bellyaching about how the Gripen or the MiG were not shortlisted, deal with it, and patiently await which of the two Eurocanards, chosen by a professional AF and a professional selection committee finally make the cut. And stop attacking the two aircraft consortiums that did make the cut, their nationalities ("French suck, Dassault suck, yada yada") and act a bit grown up.

Or perhaps, thats asking for too much.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 09 Dec 2011 08:15

NG is ok for european , african and south american and east asian countries that do not face the prospect of facing the lizard on 1:1 basis. it should be able to tackle the f-16 / bandar types.

our env is unique - other then Khan (who has the adv of qualityxquantity) we are the only ones likely to engage in a fight with the lizard.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 09 Dec 2011 09:22

Karan M, great post there. nice writing.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Shrinivasan » 09 Dec 2011 12:27

Karan, as usuall, a post crammed with logic but sans emotion and rhetoric. A good reason to login at 1:00 AM into BRF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 09 Dec 2011 12:47

Karan M wrote:Of all the types in the competition, the Gripen NG was the worst for the IAF & for India, as a whole, in my personal view. ...........


There is a point we need to buy from Karan saab's post: Shelving MMRCA for LCA Mk II(same class as Gripen) is a NO.

LCA Mk II is of the same class of the the Gripen as many agree here. We can't follow the swiss and settle down for a pocket friendly fighter as the threat perceptions of both the countries is vastly different.

Now replace Gripen with LCA Mk II and most of the technical points hold perfectly well against the it for MMRCA.
LCA Mk II has a role in IAF just as the MMRCA and it can not replace this.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Badar » 09 Dec 2011 13:18

Internet rumors circulating that the MMRCA result will be announced today.

BR lurking should be a lot of fun for the next few days... getting popcorn

Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 09 Dec 2011 15:39

I have a spider feeling it will be EF, though I support Rafa in the blue corner. in IAF as with many other AF's the a2a oriented 'fighter jocks' probably form a powerful lobby on the command track....pilots who started on the Mig29 and M2K are in command positions now...and the EFs bigger captor-e radar, better faster n higher specs and better meteor carriage might be considered desirable against emerging chinese threats.

its easier for a good a2a plane to become a effective a2g plane - f15, f16, su27 all started out as pure-play a2a.
but hard for a2g plane to become a top notch a2a - tornado, f18, su24, jaguar...
the rafale falls somewhere in between these two stools...a plane that does everything on the earth without being the best at any...

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 09 Dec 2011 16:03

Technical evaluation is over now but rafale proved to be an exellent AtA fighter. ATLC, Corsica or the swiss evaluation showed its superiority to the EF is that area even againsat the lattest itteration of the EF.

As for L1 the rafale "should be" the natural winner : The rafale is smaller with newer, smaller engines, less moving parts (fixed intakes, fixed refueling probe, no dorsal brake, fixed radar) and it is already developped. It can also beneficiates from the mirage 2000-5mk2 facilities and weapons. Last but not least the rafale option opens a strategic perspective to operate a common fighter with the Indian Navy.

Another point that speaks for the rafale is nuclear cooperation with france. The magajoul facility in France could be an immense asset for indian researcher to keep indian deterrence credible and modern. UK is already using it for its nuclear deterrence.

Now were the Typhoon can win is in the offsets match so it could become L1 due to a higher degree of re-investement in India.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 09 Dec 2011 16:21

Ef all the way! Bring this baby home. I also have a feeling EF might be cheaper to operate through its life time than the Raffy. lots more to offer, it flies faster, higher, has a lot of upgrade potential and offcourse the bigger radar.

Yeah right!!! Raffy's suppossed superiority over the EF is still questionable and EFs flown were no where close to the ones offered to us. Indian nuke deterrance has no need to depend on france and certainly doesnt need anything from france to keep itself modern. L-1 needn't be Rafale, the fly away cost is marginally lower, the life cycle cost is most likely higher.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 09 Dec 2011 16:27

It's a boy! It's a girl... its the superbird....the Rafoon!
(at super price too,so dip into your pockets guys,YOU will be paying the price!)


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