India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jun 2011 17:09

^^get outta here..

paki pilots relaying IAF words.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 15 Jun 2011 18:31

That story has already been rubbished in every other forum with the following reasoning

The only time the PAF and the RAF were together at an Anatolian Eagle was 2007/2, when the RAF bought 6 Tornado GR4's to the exercise not Typhoons.

The only time they bought Typhoons was in 2009, when the PAF were absent.

Of course the die-hard fanboys then tried to argue that they were exchange pilots flying Turkish F16's.

Someone then used the pilot's own interview to hoist that argument on its own petard - at any one time there are 2 exchange pilots, only one of whom flies an F16.

Yet in the interview the pilot refers to "pilots" and "we" were victorious, which means he couldn't have been an exchange pilot either, just a little economic with the truth.

The timing of this is of course particularly suspicious - since the only time Typhoons were in AE was in 2009 (I could be wrong), why would this fact be publicized only two years later when the typhoon emerged as frontrunner for the MRCA contract?

I'd say a clumsy, ISI spy ops job - which unfortunately came unstuck because of Madrassa inspired logic, or is it Lahori logic?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Jun 2011 18:42

^^^ new category - sir-gadha logic

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Jun 2011 19:06

One regret I do have about not buying the Super Hornet (Intl version of course) - the US seems to be the only powerhouse that can supply frames really quick - Dassault might struggle to do this. Let us see.

CM

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 15 Jun 2011 19:42

Cain Marko,

That's exactly the opposite, Dassault can deliver very quickly. The upgrades are now cleared or at their final stage of development and the production line can double or triple the production rate without a problem. To deliver a mature/developped product in a short time frame That's in fact a rafale big asset.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jun 2011 19:48

well the production rate of the first 18 are the only ones must be of the concern... rest would be all local. Now, is Fr willing to share that production setup to help build it faster? I guess this is what CM was saying when Boeing claimed they can help setup this.

It could be all how we do "divide & conquer" on the LRU/parts, and other production engineering aspects.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2011 20:08

SaiK: If the IAF feels that HAL cannot deliver, they can opt for more aircraft to be built in France itself. The "18 aircraft in fly away" condition could always be modified.

Cain Marko: From the link below...

France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... kills.html

Dassault delivers 11 fighters a year off its Merignac assembly line, but could more than double this rate to meet export demand.

Dassault says it would have no problem with increasing its current build rate, having previously run the Merignac line at a rate of two aircraft a month. "We've done a study to up to treble the current rate, and could do it," says Jean-Marc Gasparini, the company's vice-president military aircraft. "It's a problem we would like to have."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2011 20:21

the rafale production plant looks very sdre and HALish, vs the uber factory that maks the raptor in

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 15 Jun 2011 20:23

It is an asembly plant, not a production plant

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2011 20:24

Singha wrote:the rafale production plant looks very sdre and HALish, vs the uber factory that maks the raptor in.

We are SDREs...we will only follow the SDRE model

Talking about AESAs...France will field an operational AESA radar in 2013...well before the first MMRCA joins service.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... kills.html

The next standard to enter frontline use, in mid-2013, is dubbed F3-04T. This will introduce an active electronically scanned array with the RBE2 radar, the laser-guided AASM, improved front sector optronics and MBDA's DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 15 Jun 2011 20:28

In fact Rafale final AESA qualificataion will occur in 2011 and rafale AESA radar manufacturing has already begun.

2013 is the date when the first equipped AESA rafale will be delivered to the French Air Force.

RBE-2 AESA : Final evaluation in June-July with a qualification expected before the end of 2011

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... ehong.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2011 20:33

Singha: Some more SDRE Rafale production photos...notice the use of manual tools + super glue to piece the Rafale together, while in the F-22 they are using moon dust + space tools to manufacture the aircraft. The F-22 is glowing a cool blue due to its bada$$ factor. Very nice

Even the people at the F-22 production line look very TFTA...we missed out on this when we did not select Rakhi Sawant to join the IAF. We had a wonderful opportunity to move to TFTA level, but we dhoti-wearing SDREs just blew it BIG TIME!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2011 20:38

and he's not even using a Ipad - weak, very weak

no next-gen cool blue LED backlighting either.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 15 Jun 2011 20:59

Singha wrote:and he's not even using a Ipad - weak, very weak
no next-gen cool blue LED backlighting either.

Jokes apart, the pace of manufacturing is pretty decent considering the fact that they STILL DON'T have a single export customer. You have to appreciate the French for standing by Dassault and Rafale.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Jun 2011 21:14

cheenum wrote:
Singha wrote:and he's not even using a Ipad - weak, very weak
no next-gen cool blue LED backlighting either.
Jokes apart, the pace of manufacturing is pretty decent considering the fact that they STILL DON'T have a single export customer. You have to appreciate the French for standing by Dassault and Rafale.

don't be deceived by looks ... they are producing at 11 per year ... Albeit, it is not for want of ability

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jun 2011 23:12

arthuro wrote:It is an asembly plant, not a production plant

and the difference is?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2011 23:36

SaiK wrote:
arthuro wrote:It is an asembly plant, not a production plant
and the difference is?

SDREs only assemble, while TFTAs actually produce...that is the difference.

AJames · Post by **AJames** » 16 Jun 2011 00:51

Rafael looks incredibly like LCA Tejas from a distance. I thought the wrong image had been posted at first.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2011 01:07

just kidding rakesh.. so we would become tfta once we start producing?

/ot

btw, LCA designs and Rafale designs look similar because, it was the same bunch of folks who were consultants for both these a/cs

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jun 2011 01:25

SaiK: Oh I know...just pointing out to the Amrikhan-lovers in BRF of the uber qualities of the TFTA

They are crying foul because the IAF did not select the teens. Not directed at you.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jun 2011 01:44

Check out this video...Dassault @ Le Bourget feeling good, being in the MMRCA downselect. They have a feeling that they are going to win this, since they will definately be L1. However it all depends on the offsets provided by the Typhoon and whether the GoI will be tempted by that offer.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... video.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jun 2011 03:36

Rakesh wrote:Check out this video...Dassault @ Le Bourget feeling good, being in the MMRCA downselect. They have a feeling that they are going to win this, since they will definately be L1. However it all depends on the offsets provided by the Typhoon and whether the GoI will be tempted by that offer.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... video.html

Check out 2:50. IF India selects the Rafale, it states, that the FR Gov may "trim its procurement".

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 Jun 2011 07:18

India’s Fighter Fetish

Tellis may well be right, and his account of India’s technical evaluation process is both detailed and convincing. India is a country with a ‘fetish about process,’ he observes, and this obsession – perhaps regrettably – allowed the air force to make a purely technical judgement that wasn’t influenced in any way by budgetary sense, international politics past or present, or even by the overall range of missions that the aircraft could handle. They picked the two speediest, most manoeuvrable planes, and that was all there was to it.

Perhaps India’s decision-makers really have become blinkered to all non-technical considerations when it comes to military procurement. But there would be two surprising implications to this, if it were true.

The first is that the Indian defence establishment – which has a shabby procurement record, strewn with cases of graft and with car-crash programmes where the fetish about process was nowhere to be found – would have to have cleaned up its act to an extraordinary degree in order to have run the MMRCA competition along purely technical lines.
:
The second is that it would show how little the West understands its new, and most important, Asian ally. US President Barack Obama, French President Nicolas Sarkozy and British Prime Minister David Cameron all made personal sales calls to New Delhi in the run-up to the MMRCA decision to lobby for their countries’ entrants (and for other contracts besides) – trips that were completely pointless if India is in fact impervious to this kind of pressure. The US Ambassador to India, Timothy J. Roemer, who quit when the rejection of the two US aircraft was announced, must have had dreadful intelligence on the country he was working in, if he thought the value of US-Indian strategic ties would count in what was a strictly technical contest. But this, too, is not totally implausible. Potential buyers often say one thing and mean another, while salesmen might hear only what they want to hear.

Yet if Tellis’s reading of the MMRCA contest is correct, then this programme is a rarity – a museum piece – in its exclusion of non-technical factors.
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Good Read

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 16 Jun 2011 08:35

Actually a noob question but how Rafale will fare in Tibet and high altitude warfare?Libya does not provide the baseline for A2G op.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jun 2011 08:59

both the eurocanards should be ok at high alt , where delta wings are pretty good. and both did ok in Leh base takeoff.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2011 09:14

Yet if Tellis’s reading of the MMRCA contest is correct, then this programme is a rarity – a museum piece – in its exclusion of non-technical factors. Personal contacts, lobbying and special favours are the lifeblood of big business and international politics, and this is doubly so in the world of defence, whose wheels are habitually greased either by financial or strategic interests. If Antony truly has freed India’s procurement processes from these iniquities, then he has done an even better job of cleaning up his country’s defence sector than people give him credit for.

kudos for this level of understanding. thank you IAF and MoD for saving our bright smile and broad shoulders that we can walk while talking to our amrikhan friends. in fact, one of 'em really appreciated when I said so far so good for "no grease" situation thus far.

==

man! I keep going back to that raptor assembly pic! that is one piece of a setup! if one such should come up in desh, it would make us all jingoes go crazy!

avinashrd · Post by **avinashrd** » 16 Jun 2011 11:45

Dassault aims to seal €8bn contract with UAE

http://www.thenational.ae/business/avia ... ct-with-uae

If IAF chooses Rafale, will it place the order for the ones which will me manufactured for UAE also. Since UAE is looking for Rafale with more power and better suites?

The costs associated with boosting the Rafale's engine power by 21 per cent have been the most high-profile upgrade, but Eric Trappier, the executive vice president of international business for Dassault Aviation, said the new engine would cost less than $1bn to develop. "It is not an issue" in the sales campaign, he said.

The costs would be mainly borne by the UAE and the France, which would also benefit from upgraded features, Mr Edelstenne said.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Jun 2011 12:14

Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal P V Naik's Interview By Gulshan Luthra and Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd) for India Strategic Magazine

Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, told India Strategic defence magazine that the commercial bids of the two finalists in the race for 126-plus Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCAs) would be opened mid-June (possibly before the Paris Air Show beginning June 20

The Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, for which only the Eurofighter and Rafale remain in the fray, could touch or exceed $ 15 billion if the option for additional 63 aircraft is exercised in addition to the 126 units given in the tender.

It may be noted that as most deals involve Transfer of Technologies and Offsets, There are Still Additional Costs as the Manufacturers Pass Various Charges Essentially to the Buyer.

MMRCA Milestones

Air Chief Marshal Naik said that in the case of the MMRCA, the last significant milestone in the selection process was over with the completion of the Technical Oversight Committee (TOC) report. The MoD could open the commercial tenders submitted by Eurofighter and Rafale Mid-June to determine the Lowest, or L-1, Bidder.

However, it would Still Take a Couple of Months as it just won’t just be the Price Mentioned, but the Package in Terms of Direct Costs, Support Programmes, Training, Offsets and Life Cycle Costs which would Determine the Winner. The Race though is Expected to be Close.

Asked if the Eurofighter and Rafale were superior in technologies to the other four contenders – Boeing F/A 18 IN Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F 16 IN, Swedish Gripen and Russian Mig 29 – the Air Chief said: “In all fairness, all the six aircraft in the competition were good, and more or less close to one another in performance. But some of them had to be out, and some had to be in, and that’s it. Let’s say that the two European finalists were the most-compliant in the 600-plus parameters that the IAF selection team had set.”

The Air Chief Observed that Admittedly, the US had the Best of the Combat Radars, Weapons and Systems. But then, Each of the Six Contenders had Given in Writing that they would match the IAF requirements, Including those for Systems to be Sourced from the US.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2011 16:47

NRao wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Check out this video...Dassault @ Le Bourget feeling good, being in the MMRCA downselect. They have a feeling that they are going to win this, since they will definately be L1. However it all depends on the offsets provided by the Typhoon and whether the GoI will be tempted by that offer.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... video.html

Check out 2:50. IF India selects the Rafale, it states, that the FR Gov may "trim its procurement".

Once smitten twice shy (kaveri deal).. EADS will give a tough fight on the price is my thought. If Fr gov trims, then the cost should further come down, reducing few budgetary overheads.. of course, it all depends on how they send in their numbers to MoD in couple of months.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 16 Jun 2011 18:11

Rakesh wrote:SaiK: If the IAF feels that HAL cannot deliver, they can opt for more aircraft to be built in France itself. The "18 aircraft in fly away" condition could always be modified.

From recent history of MKI procurement, it is more likely the following scenario will unfold:
1. Initial contract of 18 in fly-away condition + remaining 105 to be produced by HAL + option of 63 more
2. 1-2 years down the road as aircrafts roll in, IAF puts it through paces and finds it good, a follow up contract for additional X aircraft will be placed with vendor + another additional Y to be added to the 105 to be produced by HAL. (of course this would be only if IAF is really impressed like it was with MKI, and no follow up if it was put off like it was with AJT)

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Jun 2011 18:20

^^I disagree. It is unlikely that the 63 options will be contracted now itself. The cost of the deal will balloon from the $10 bil to $15 bil (in fact I personally think it might reach $20 bil including the spares, support etc.) and the FinMin will go apeshit.

The 63 options may be ordered a few years after the deliveries start, once the IAF has familiarised itself with the aircraft.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 16 Jun 2011 18:34

nachiket wrote:^^I disagree. It is unlikely that the 63 options will be contracted now itself. The cost of the deal will balloon from the $10 bil to $15 bil (in fact I personally think it might reach $20 bil including the spares, support etc.) and the FinMin will go apeshit.

The 63 options may be ordered a few years after the deliveries start, once the IAF has familiarised itself with the aircraft.

Not contracted for purchase. The contract will be purchase of 123 + option of additional 63.

Few years down the road, part or all of the option will be exercised. Sooner if the need is felt to ramp up faster. This is what was done with MKI where early on options were exercised for additional 40/50 to be supplied by Irkut (?) while HAL ramped up its pace.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 16 Jun 2011 21:26

Typhoons are being cannibalized for spares...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... fleet.html

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 16 Jun 2011 21:31

Prithviji,

That is old news. They were being cannibalized even before the Libya Op, so as to ensure that pilot training took place.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jun 2011 22:02

ACM Naik will be remembered as th leader who put the tools in place to revive the strike compoenent of the IAF.

Defend the skies is good, but making sure the other guy doesn't fly is better.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2011 22:27

I agree with nachiket.. we have LCA, aMCA to focus as well.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2011 05:21

The MMRCA is no longer a foreign plane. IF India wants it to be contemporary over the years India better treat THEM like HAL/etc (and HAL/etc, like THEM). (So too the FGFA.)

With that in mind I vote for the Rafale and call it a day.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jun 2011 09:25

ramana wrote:ACM Naik will be remembered as th leader who put the tools in place to revive the strike compoenent of the IAF.

I agree with Ramana 100%, he has moved the acquisition process forward for fighters. ditto for transports... helos... base upgrades... under him IAF stood upto Russian blackmail on spares., Akash order, radar upgrades etc. MAFI is another thing which he championed... we will all miss you sir..

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 17 Jun 2011 22:48

Dassault, Eurofighter submit revised offset bids

New Delhi: Couple of months after being shortlisted, French firm Dassault and consortium of European companies Eurofighter have submitted their revised offset bids for the multi-billion dollar 126 combat aircraft deal, the process for which is expected to be completed by the year end.

On 27 April, India has shortlisted the two European companies for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in which six companies were participating.

“The offsets offer, which were completed until April 14 this year, have been asked to be revised until June 17 that is today,” German Ambassador Thomas Mattusek told reporters here.

Officials in Dassault also said they have already submitted the revised bids with the ministry.

Under the offsets clause in the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), foreign vendors bagging deals worth over Rs 300 crore have to reinvest at least 30 percent of the contract amount into Indian defence, civilian aerospace or the homeland security sectors.

In the M-MRCA competition, companies have to invest 50 percent of the worth of the deal into the Indian defence sector only.

“The shortlist and commercial biddings are expected to be opened in the next few weeks so that the whole project is expected to be finalised by the end of this year,” the German Ambassador said.

Germany along with United Kingdom, Spain and Italy is one of the four partner nations in the Eurofighter consortium and is the lead country for the Indian campaign.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2011 23:49

From an investment point of view, I guess EADS appears to be solid. Now we have to see if they really made a good bid in the offer for L1.