India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Dec 2011 20:43

grants are not in the list. both Egypt and Israel avg around $3 billion every yr without fail. they use these to buy US eqpt, so in effect its a subsidy by gotus to the US defmil industry.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Dec 2011 22:08

KersiD, TSP does not buy arms. It gets alms/baksheesh.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Dec 2011 22:12

I thought afghans too get baksheesh.. where do they get money from to buy?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 16 Dec 2011 04:38

Kovy wrote:
Singha wrote:its easier for a good a2a plane to become a effective a2g plane - f15, f16, su27 all started out as pure-play a2a.
So did the Rafale. The Rafale F1 were pure A2A fighters.

the rafale falls somewhere in between these two stools...a plane that does everything on the earth without being the best at any...
The Rafale is the best low altitude deep stricker ever
There is no other fighter that can beat it when it comes to strike deep inside the ennemy territory with zero visibility (night/all weather) at high speed and very low altitude in automatic terrain following mode without any A2A or dedicated Electronic warfare escort. It doesn't even have to pop up to egage several targets in one pass as the scalps and AASM (as well as ASMP-A) can do it themselves.

Possibly, only the F-35 will match the Rafale efficiency in that role when it will be operational (relying on stealth rather than low altitude though).

What gives Rafale such a great performance capabilities?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Dec 2011 06:10

Eurofighter combat jet: awaiting the outcome of the Indian and Japanese tenders

Another exciting event caused by New Delhi following a tender launched for military aircraft to be allocated to the Indian armed forces. In this case, apart from the Typhoon, the French Rafale of Dassault is competing; the Americans tender offer of the Super Hornet and the F-35 has already been dismissed.

The newly elected President of Finmeccanica, Giuseppe Orsi, said that he is confident in the choice of the Typhoon, and is representing Finmeccanica since it is participating to Eurofighter's programme, together with EADS and BAe Systems, of which it owns approximately 36%. Following the inauguration ceremony of the new establishment of its subsidiary Thales Alenia Space in L'Aquila, he said: "The Eurofighter is a very powerful machine. We hope that India makes the right choice". And speaking of a possible re-entry of the Americans in the competition, he declared that: " Indians have very rigorous processes, therefore I doubt the possibility of another candidate at this stage". (Avionews)

arnabh · Post by **arnabh** » 16 Dec 2011 11:03

SU-30 MKI engine failures
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 83035.aspx

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 16 Dec 2011 15:38

An interesting editorial from a famous french defense analyst :

(It must be noted that the quoted price are "all inclusive" with development costs. So we are not talking of flyaway price that would be more relevant for india as export customer will not pay for development costs already paid by the french taxpayer.)

Rafale too expensive ? Welcome in bar-room talks
Secret Defense, Dec 15

This is the new cliche of [french] commentators, more or less informed, more or less well-intentioned. The Rafale is too expensive, so it is not selling abroad and if France buys it anyway, that's to please Mr. Dassault. Welcome in bar room talks!

"What is it?" As Marshal Foch said.

Yes, the Rafale is expensive. On the basis of parliamentary reports, one can estimate its price, by dividing the payments by the number of aircraft delivered in the period 2006-2011, around 116 million euros the unit.

This price is all taxes included, it integrates the 19.6% VAT. A VAT payed by the Department of Defense, but which at the end come back in the state's pockets : for the taxpayer [ the only one that counts in the end], the net price of the Rafale should be expressed net of tax. We are therefore at a price of 94 million euros.

A recent Senate report estimates the total cost of the Rafale program for public finances to 43.567 billion euros (taking into account inflation since 1989) and that, on the basis of a planned order of 286 aircrafts . All taxes included , it is 152 million each. The difference compared to our previous calculation is due to the fact that this price includes the development of the aircraft, now paid for the current version (F3). Remains an uncertainty in this calculation: the final number of aircraft to be built. Fewer aircraft , higher price - this is the well-known principle of economies of scale. Originally, 320 Rafale should be ordered by France. Currently, the target is 286 units, but the only thing certain is that 180 were actually ordered. And there is still no export order.

But expensive ? does it mean too expensive? And too expensive compared to what? To the absence of a credible national defense? To the abandonment of one of the most successful industry in a country hit by deindustrialization? To less performant foreign competitors which would lead our country into a political dependence? [...]

Overall, and it is rare enough to point out, the prices originally planned (in constant currency) were held: the court of accounts speak of a drift of 4.7%, compared to +51% for the Tigre helicopter or +29.1% for the Armoured Infantry vehicle (VBCI). As for the A400M, its price increased by 25% before the first flight ... Abroad, the Eurofighter has drifted about 70% according to the NOA, the british Court of Auditors while the U.S. F-35 is a bottomless pit. The plane is still not in service and it is risky to advance a serious price. One thing is already certain: it will be the the most expensive combat aircraft program in history! The latest available data suggest a total cost of 323 billion dollars for 2443 devices only for U.S. forces (USAF, USN, USMC). (Either 101 million euros each) - knowing that development costs have exploded by 40% and the production of 60 to 90% depending on version. There is no evidence that this wild ride is over.

Yet countries comparable to France will buy it ... Whatever the cost. The United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Canada, Israel, Australia, Turkey, Singapore - and maybe soon Japan will embark on this program. Contrary to the Rafale, it is not a multi-role aircraft, but an aircraft primarily designed for ground attack. Besides all the senior Air Force plans to keep, next, an air-air interceptor not necessarily cheap either as the F-22 or the Eurofighter Typhoon ...

Five European countries of the Atlantic Alliance will choose the American F-35: This shows that the acquisition of a combat aircraft is above all a political choice. Sometimes the price is the issue, for example in the case of Switzerland which just prefer the Swedish Gripen . The plane is cheaper but, in fact, for good reason: it is less efficient than the Rafale. Dassault propaganda? No, estimation of the Swiss pilots themselves. But Switzerland probably did not need a plane in the range of Rafale. For its air defense, it has excellent F-18 and he had to replace only its old F-5 ... a light fighter of the generation of Mirage III.

The Rafale is certainly an excellent plane - probably the best ever produced by our aviation industry in a century of existence. The hundred of aircraft delivered to date (104 exactly, 4 were lost and 10 of the first standard are mothballed in the Navy) can get to an accurate picture. The Rafale has been involved in two wars (Afghanistan and Libya) and ensures daily air defense missions (permanent Security Posture) and nuclear deterrence. Its versatility is its strength: it can carry out missions of air-air interception, reconnaissance, ground attack and strategic strikes, from the ground or from an aircraft carrier. The only comparable aircraft in the world is the F-18 E/F.

There is, in our country, a true national masochism, to denigrate our success .. It's strange. Would we prefer to be on the side of the Eurofighter ?, a plane that costs more money to the taxpayers in the concerned countries and which is struggling to be truly operational, as the British saw in Libya (and never seen in Afghanistan .. .)? Would we prefer to buy F-35 at a completely unpredictable costs of acquisition and ownership , with the guarantee to never access the source code of the aircraft and to be always dependant of Washington (think to the Franco-American crisis in 2003)?

http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefen ... _a452.html

manum · Post by **manum** » 16 Dec 2011 18:36

sukhoi 30's are costing $90 million...with the payload capacity of rafale and price aprox. $95 million We'll be able to make rafale carry Brahmos as well...secondly the 126 deal with missiles it fits in $12 billion budget...

I am dillydallying between Rafale and typhoon only...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2011 19:08

This will happen sometime soon, during MMRCA decision, or later on :

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/12 ... 899277&s=4
Sarkozy + Merkel

Will · Post by **Will** » 16 Dec 2011 19:11

The panwala who supplies pan to the chaiwalla who supplies chai to the Defense Ministry whispered that the EF has won.

. Poor Rafale

News News for goodness sake some news on whats happening

If not there will be some soisaidees around the corner.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2011 19:26

Didn't you know the maid made money here for this news?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 16 Dec 2011 19:33

Will wrote:The panwala who supplies pan to the chaiwalla who supplies chai to the Defense Ministry whispered that the EF has won. . Poor Rafale

News News for goodness sake some news on whats happening If not there will be some soisaidees around the corner.

my chaiwala quoted rafale .

nash · Post by **nash** » 16 Dec 2011 19:49

ok what are the chances of both the chaiwaala become true.... and both Tiffy and Raffy get selected.....

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 16 Dec 2011 20:22

Top 10 US arms buyers 2011

1. 5.4 billion - Afghanistan
2. 4.9 billion - Taiwan
3. 4.5 billion - India
4. 3.9 billion - Australia
5. 3.5 billion - Saudi Arabia
6. 2.0 billion - Iraq
7. 1.5 billion - UAE
8. 1.4 billion - Israel
9. 0.5 billion - Japan
10. 0.5 billion - Sweden

Something tells me we may be number 1 in 2012 after doubling up on everything we bought this year and then some.[/quote]

WHERE IS OUR ~~FIENDLY~~ FRIENDLY NEIGHBOUR PAKISTAN ?[/quote]

Dear this is buyers list not of beggar's...

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 16 Dec 2011 21:00

^^^ Look at this list, our "competition" as it were is Afghanistan, Taiwan, Australia ??

There is nothing proud of being on this list of "buyer". It just shows how many ways the US can screw us over!

I look forward to the day when we can publish a list of Top Indian Arms buyers.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Dec 2011 21:30

How are we getting screwed over if we willingly buy American arms? In fact, we are buying arms in order to not get screwed over.
Since we are #1 on the Russian list, are they screwing us over double hard?
Yes, it is shameful we are on any such d@mn list but its not America's or Russia's fault we aren't self sufficient. Wishful thinking and making excuses for the failures won't get us there

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 16 Dec 2011 21:35

How can we let go of this beauty "Katrina" which has miraculous weightlifting capability:

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... page1.aspx

Rafale has excellent payload for its small size. Officially Rafale C can carry a incredible 20900 pounds of payload despite the fact that it is slightly smaller than Typhoon which can carry only 16500 pounds.

The payload of Rafale C is also officially MORE than F-18EF ( F-18EF is 42% larger than rafale C, but F-18ef carries only 17700 pound officially).

And this is not all. When Rafale get its uprated M88-3 engine and when the new 3000 liter (792.6gals) center line external fuel tank is being qualified for use, rafale external payload weight will further increase to almost 23000 pound !!! Thats almost the same as the 24000 pounds achieve by the 50-65% larger F-15E.

Rafale C MTOW will soon be increase to 60,000 pounds. Rafale C is about 20680 pound when empty. Its MTOW to empty weight ratio is 2.9 times !!

F-15E MTOW to empty ratio is 2.56 or less. F-15E probably rank second.

No other airplane is close or even close. eurofighter Typhoon MTWO to empty weight is only 2.14 !

B-2 bomber may have highere MTOW to empty weight ratio. But B-2 is a subsonic load carrying bomber. For fighter plane comparison Rafale C MTOW to empty weight ratio is HIGHEST among all supersonic fighter aircraft.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Dec 2011 21:49

So its really a F-15 class plane.

manum · Post by **manum** » 16 Dec 2011 22:17

Rafale is worth its penny...and its really worth to build 100 or more of them in India...LCA, Rafale, MKI, FGFA...Mirage, mig-29, Jaguar...It'll be an unchallenged sky for a long period to come...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Dec 2011 00:24

^you sound like an astrologist. could you predict the future of m2ks too?

--

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... st-366102/ He said the French air force is working hard to help pin down a Rafale sale in the United Arab Emirates, which recently stunned the defence aerospace industry by issuing a request for a proposal linked to the Eurofighter Typhoon and also spoke with Boeing and Lockheed Martin. The UAE has a long-running requirement to replace 60 Mirage 2000-9s.

Nice to hear air forces helping their country's product in marketing. Now that is something our IAF can learn too in the future. I see bright future for LCA-Mk2.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 17 Dec 2011 01:46

Very likely the Europe situation has thrown a new variable into an already complicated equation. Our babus must be struggling to make sure they don't don't do anything that will come back to bite them in the @ss. The French and Germans must be bargaining with all their might even though they are on a slippery slope. But for us, it is a matter of making a critically important long-term commitment in an uncertain environment, not just getting the best deal. The potential risks and rewards are both very high here. We have never bargained from a position of strength before so this is a test case for our bargaining skills.

Fitch just put France on negative watch, saying it is worst off among the AAA rated Euros while top economists are unanimous that the problems in Europe are just beginning. That is truly scary.

Still unlikely to be any delays as that would reflect badly on our capacity to make tough decisions under stress. Our own financial and growth situation is not rosy either, so the pressure on MoF is intense.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Dec 2011 02:10

In predicting the future,none can beat the remarkable Indian astrologer.I tell you a true story.Many years ago,a certain salesman moved to Delhi and to cut a long story short,became a renowned astrologer,(genuine guy,no fraudster) much sought after by politicos and corporate bosses.I was at the airport with a colleague who knew this man very well,and who related the story to me (as we travelled to the airport to catch a flight ),when lo and behold,as we walked into the terminal,a stylish gent in silk native attire and scarf walked into us and cheerfully grabbed hold of my friend. It was none other than he,the astrologer,talk about coincidences! Where was he going? Off to the south seas for a consultation with the PM of Fiji or wherever! Anyway,those were the heady days of monopoly of air travel by Indian Airlines and our flight was as usual delayed by a few hours.In no time at all our astrologer was recognised and deferentially surrounded by people who knew him and were desirous of his predictions.One could recognise ministers,MPs and even the head of a large corporate group which has the letter "R" respectfully confabulating with him.

Later on,when he had shaken off his admirers,he rejoined us and sat with us for a long time.I Having just come back from a visit to SL,he was most interested in news from there and he confided to us that some of his predictions were based upon a unique divination technique of similar sounding names/sounds affecting one's future.Rajiv G he said met his end in "Sri" Perumbudur because of his involvement in "Sri" Lanka.The "harmonic connections" of sound,etc,etc. played its part in our lives he said,It was all too metaphysical for me.I never forgot this encounter though and often use his technique and try and spot similarities.Football Managers, "Arsen"al-"Arsen"e Wenger,"Man-Ci"ty-"Manci"ni."Osama-Obama",who went "bam,bam" at him!.........You get the picture indeed! Sometimes,you find yourself dealing with people,drawn too (esp. gals!) with the same names,B'days,etc.,etc.

So putting this renowned astrologer's technique to the test with the MMRCA deal,what do we have?"
Step-1: Mmmmmmm! .....name of kaantest,you must use Yindian pronunciation as client owner is Yindia.

Yem,Yem,"Yaar" ,Zee, YaY........ "Yoro"-fighter.See "Yaar-Yor" similarities. "Tie"-Foon.Most certainly correct saar,see how it has "tie"d with French bird!

Step-2:How the "tie" will be broken and vich vun vill vin? "Tie",ve hav seen ja? I am now speaking Germanic becoz Germany is major partner in Ty-Foon with Britain, und Britain as ve all vell know,has German blood royalty ruling it! German pronunciation is therefore to be used in divination.Therefore we reduce the sound to "Ty-Von","von" meaning "from",vich Ty-von is certainly from Germany!

Step-3: But "von" is Germanic pronunciation of English word "won"! Therefore has the Typhoon really "won"? Vill it?

Step-4: Vot about Rafale? "Ra-fale".In Indian context very much zimple saar.Put the ingenious thoughts mental ! "Ra" sound is the equal to......vaaat? "Ra"-van! Infamous character in Ramayana! Much,much, powerful but such,such a loser.Und "fale" sound,ve all know it rhymes with "Fail".Therefore,though "Ra (van)" is powerful,he vill definitely "fale"! Argument saying "Ra" is also equal to "Ra(m)-fale" is wrong,as Lord Ram,did not 'fale'! See also wherever Rafale is competing,it is "fale-ing"!

Yany one vonting astrological,future predictions pliss to be getting in touch,affordable charges-retainer only in dollars,5 digits,discount for BR members.Gentlemen,safely place your bets with your favourite bookie-not the one who lives in a tony part of Karachi!

PS:If prediction is wrong and Rafale vins somehow,"son-tific" reasons vill definitely be given.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 17 Dec 2011 02:11

French air force chief confident of Rafale victory in Indian contest

Gen Jean-Paul Paloméros, chief of staff of the French air force, is confident about the Dassault Rafale's prospects in major international competitions, and partially attributes the aircraft's previous losses in Singapore and South Korea to politics.

"I've flown in the Rafale and I know what it can do," said Paloméros, speaking to Flightglobal at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace exhibition in Malaysia late last month. "Rafale was designed since conception as a multi-role aircraft," he added.

According to Paloméros, the Rafale is well suited to handle emerging air-to-air and air-to-ground threats in the Asia-Pacific region.

"The Rafale has very high manoueverability," he said. "It will be getting an AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar and it has good weapons. It will also receive the MBDA Meteor air-to-air missile, offering extra range against any types of threats."

The AESA version of the Thales RBE2 radar will be introduced into Rafale in 2013, when French forces begin receiving the fourth block of production aircraft. The Meteor is still undergoing development, but should be deployed on the Rafale after the middle of the decade.

Paloméros is confident the Rafale will emerge triumphant in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft competition for 126 fighters, where it is on a shortlist with the Eurofighter Typhoon. Indian media reports suggest the decision is imminent, possibly before the end of 2011.

"The Indians are working on their decision," he said. "We have close contacts with India owing to the [Dassault] Mirage 2000. They are more than happy, and are upgrading these aircraft. They know French industry very well. I'm confident in this competition. They are real experts and did a great job evaluating the aircraft."

He added the Rafale is also well suited for Malaysia's 18-aircraft multi-role combat aircraft competition. A Royal Malaysian Air Force team visited France this year to conduct flight trials in the type. Paloméros said although the weather was "horrible", the visitors liked the aircraft and gained the opportunity to work with Rafale in challenging conditions.

As for the design's failure so far to win a foreign buyer, Paloméros said: "In Singapore the Rafale was in the final selection against the Boeing F-15, as was the case in South Korea's F-X I competition. The F-15 was a good choice for both countries, but its selection had a lot to do with politics as well."

He said the French air force is working hard to help pin down a Rafale sale in the United Arab Emirates, which recently stunned the defence aerospace industry by issuing a request for a proposal linked to the Eurofighter Typhoon and also spoke with Boeing and Lockheed Martin. The UAE has a long-running requirement to replace 60 Mirage 2000-9s.

"We are working very hard with the UAE. They have participated in operations over Libya alongside Rafale and they know what they want. In terms of capabilities, we are in the same room. As for negotiations, we'll see."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... st-366102/

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 17 Dec 2011 02:48

42 MKI-super for $4.3 Billion means $100 Million a pop without AESA and since we have already ordered a boat load already this does not include training/infra etc!

If this ($13 Billions for 126 MKI) is any indication for MRCA cost we are looking at.......lets say ungodley amount.

Pentagon ordered latest batch of 34 low production F-35 for $136 Million a pop. I bet MRCA combined with weapons, training, infra and one time expanses would cost $150Million a piece. ($18.9 Billion)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Dec 2011 08:53

Horrendous costs if accurate.Katare are you sure that the Super-Flanker will come without AESA? Where does the trade-off between quality and quantity intersect for the IAF? Is it truly pragmatic acquiring 126+ MMRCAs at those prices? For argument's sake,would 80+MMRCAs (say $100-125m) + another 80 ($45-50m) Gripen's (which perfoemd very well in Libya) for example be a better option? This in no way would derail the LCA as eventually we would have to retire all legacy MIG-21s,Bisons,MIG-27s,Jaguars,etc.,and the numbers to replace the "low/light" end would be in the region of 400+ Examining the cost of the proposed deep upgrade of the Jaguar per unit vs the cost of a Gripen for ex. could be examined.The Mirage-2000s upgrade costs are also prohibitive when compared with that of a new Sukhoi.

Surely,investing some of the estimates $15-20B into the LCA to accelerate its development,even getting outside help if it will help accelerate MK-2 dev. and production should be a significant part of the foundation or the future.Flipping though a back-issue of JDW,there is confirmation of the JF-17 integrating a Brazilian anti-radar MAR-1 missile,Pak is acquiring from the west/elsewhere,which will plug gaps in its capability for this fighter,of which it will be acquiring at least 200 at reasonable cost.100 missiles costing $126 have been acquired since 2009,for use on Pak's fleet of legacy upgraded Mirages.This is a pragmatic approach,something similar to the 60s-80s,when it was India that had quantity but inferior quality as Pak had US wares like Sabres and F-16s.JDW says that this shows that Pak has a well-structured plan to "expand the capability of the aircraft beyond its Chinese roots."

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Dec 2011 12:21

my rant would be what was India's part in super sukhois? now many of pak-fa tech, that are half matured gets into super sukhois. I strongly feel our participation in the MKI must increase rather decrease. MMRCA should prove that fact that there are other organization and countries willing to be real partners for all round growth, and not just Russians getting the cake and eating it too.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Dec 2011 13:31

OT, but new development after Dr MMS visited Russia.
Russia to provide additional 42 Sukhoi fighters to India.
Moscow: An additional 42 Sukhoi frontline fighters will be provided to India by Russia under an agreement inked between the two sides during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit in Moscow.With this pact, the total number of acquired or contracted aircraft by India in various stages of manufacture of the frontline Su-30 MKI fighters would increase to 272...............read more at http://ibnlive.in.com/news/russia-to-pr ... 716-3.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Dec 2011 13:53

arthuro wrote:
French air force chief confident of Rafale victory in Indian contest

Gen Jean-Paul Paloméros, chief of staff of the French air force, is confident about the Dassault Rafale's prospects in major international competitions, and partially attributes the aircraft's previous losses in Singapore and South Korea to politics.

Looking at the confidence of French Air Chief makes me wonder if Rafale is a done deal at the political level and all that is being done is to squeeze to get more from French.

Any ways it will be good to see Rafale in IAF colors

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 17 Dec 2011 14:00

France has several ELINT satellites to spy radar emissions from space and then feed rafale SPECTRA EW jamming libraries. That's a testament of the "strategic" role spectra plays in rafale survivability (to be linked to the nuclear strike role).

I bet that in case of a RAFALE choice india would have access to a lot of datas from China and Pakistan and custom-made jamming libraries dramatically increasing rafale survivability. That would be a pretty good point in a rafale offer and something that could make a real difference capability wise.

Operational French Elint System Slated for End of Decade Start
Spacenews, Dec 17

KOUROU, French Guiana — French military officials on Dec. 16 said the four-satellite electronic-intelligence (elint) system they plan to operate beginning in early 2012 will be the last of France’s in-orbit elint demonstration projects and will be succeeded by an operational system at the end of the decade.[...]

In a briefing here the day before the launch of the four Elisa satellites, the officials said after 15 years and four different elint satellite demonstrator projects — all judged to have been successful — France is ready to proceed with an operational system with or without European partners.

Caroline Laurent, head of space and information systems at France’s arms procurement agency, DGA, said the Elisa system, which was scheduled for launch late Dec. 16 from Europe’s Guiana Space Center spaceport here, will identify ground-based radars and other telecommunications sources in higher frequencies than its predecessor, Essaim.

The four Essaim satellites were launched in 2004 and were operated, flying in close formation in low Earth orbit, for five years before being de-orbited in 2009. Essaim followed two one-satellite elint demonstrators, the Cerise and Clementine satellites, launched respectively in 1995 and 1999.
[...]
Laurent said that Ceres design studies, which have already begun under a minimal budget, would accelerate in 2013 and that a contract for the construction of a three- or four-satellite Ceres system would begin in time for a launch by 2019. She said France is determined to build Ceres with or without partner nations joining the program.

French Air Force Gen. Yves Arnaud, who heads the French Joint Staff’s space office, said here that French expertise in optical satellite Earth observation gained from the Helios series of reconnaissance satellites since 1995 has given France a piece of an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance system. Elint, he said, is another piece.

The goal of the Ceres elint program, Arnaud said, is to provide French Rafale fighter jets with up-to-date maps of ground-to-air radars. These radars would be part of a catalog assembled by Ceres and then updated by both Ceres and Helios data.

“What we would like is to give our Rafale pilots a library of data on ground-to-air radars that would be assembled by Ceres and Helios,” Arnaud said. “Ceres and Helios would work together. Helios would identify the location of a radar, and Ceres would then fly over it to determine if it was still active, and to learn more about it. Similarly, if Ceres identifies a previously unknown source of radar emissions, optical reconnaissance will be able to tell us more about it.”

This kind of mapmaking capability depends on more than just satellites in any event, but the satellite component is indispensable, and cannot be provided by Elisa, Arnaud said.
[...]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page194

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Dec 2011 15:59

Nice but I am sure none of this data would be shared outside of France not even with time lag, so not relevant to the rafale for IAF.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 17 Dec 2011 20:08

Singha wrote:Nice but I am sure none of this data would be shared outside of France not even with time lag, so not relevant to the rafale for IAF.

+1 to that. No one will help us with signatures, RCS info etc etc. These have to be painstakingly built by any nation with its threat perceptions in mind. I am sure we already have a substantial database on the F-16, F-7 and other low grade Chinese and Paki fighters. I wonder if we will be able to use this data and build it into the AESA systems we will acquire with the MMRCA. We will definitely need the source code for that.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Dec 2011 20:13

And it actually rather complicates the integration with Gagan or desi radar mil sats, than say having a non dependent system.

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 18 Dec 2011 04:47

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 78373.html

The Government's controversial decision to continue giving money to India, a nation that has more billionaires than the UK and an aid programme of its own, is directly linked to developing trade and investment opportunities, a senior minister admitted yesterday.

In terms of perhaps surprising bluntness, international development minister Andrew Mitchell said the decision to spend £1.2bn over the next five years was part of a broader partnership that also included the hoped-for sale of fighter jets to India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2011 04:58

Austin, Even Us was very confident of winning the MRCA deal.

Yogi, Thats why countries hold air shows etc to build radar databases.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Dec 2011 06:23

Not Gagan but India's RISAT and Israel's TecSAR launched by ISRO:

The spacecraft's 15-foot diameter dish radar antenna will be able to see through the thickest clouds and rain, snow or fog conditions during night or day to provide the Indian Army with 1-meter resolution images. It can also "see" through camouflage like cloth or foliage used to conceal camps or vehicles.

Officials at Lockheed Martin tell Spaceflight Now that the satellite (RISAT) will give India a radar reconnaissance imaging capability comparable to the imaging radars carried by the most modern versions of the high-flying U-2 spy plane operated by the U.S. Air Force....
.....India launched the TecSAR radar satellite for Israel and is likely sharing its data downlink and change detection software capability.

These are secret Israeli-made milsats so their full capabilities are unknown. Indian made sats also have sub-meter resolution but it is unclear if they can see through clouds etc.
Link

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 18 Dec 2011 07:18

ramana wrote:Austin, Even Us was very confident of winning the MRCA deal.

Yogi, Thats why countries hold air shows etc to build radar databases.

Exactly and even "training" exercises.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Dec 2011 08:08

Victor, gagan would be for enhancing gps precision.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 18 Dec 2011 09:33

Winner on boxing day?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/winn ... 64683.html

nash · Post by **nash** » 18 Dec 2011 10:03

Boxing Day...

That will boost the moral of Team India .....

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Dec 2011 10:09

Knock out punch for one?