India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 31 May 2011 08:37

Rakeshji,

cannot open this site.

How the Rafale and Eurofighter allured the Indians
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_ur ... =Translate

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 08:45

the Areos pod workflow esp the part about sending back data in realtime, automatic 3D map overlay generation (great for targeting cruise missiles/AASM/J-series one would think), targets of opportunity analysis is just the kind of wild eyed demands I was postulating on BR a few yrs ago as part of our incessant rantings about a more modern future IAF

glad to see someone caught the bull by horns and delivered a product that matches the BRF (sky)highbar lol

time for rafael reccelite and vinten to *dhoti shiver*

Mirage2000H is 50 strong airframe with a well trained pilot cadre and ground crew / repair facilities - we just cannot throw them away in favour of more new MRCA (@ 2.5x the cost) which will take its own time. the 2000H heritage stretches back to IAFs oldest and arguably most ferocious sqdn the "No1 Tigers"....they will be upgraded and used for 15 more yrs for sure. the airframe is very durable as pakis operating MirageIII/V shows...these are atleast 10-15 yrs older than our oldest airframes.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 31 May 2011 09:37

Just a thought ..... might have been asked before...

Why upgrade the 50 Mirages....why not replace them with say 50-60 Rafale?

We can replace the the Mirages with Rafale and go for the Typhoon

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 11:50

most critical issue infront of IAF is imo need to retire older block of Jaguars and all the Mig27s (only 40 were upgraded). the Mig27 likely has low uptime too due to the Rus spares issues. its noisy as hell and a fuel guzzler for sure. it does not do PGMs except a limited Russia set. it clearly is not very surviable in a dense AD env. the Jag has thrust issues, high alt per issues and our oldest Jags are from around 1982 iirc...thats 25+ yrs ago.

the MKI and Tejas are coming to fill the A2A hole, the Mig29S are being upgraded, likewise the M2K will get Mica.

but you know with contender better fits need to quickly replace the depleting and weakened strike a.c (jag and Mig27)....

would make a sad sight in 2020 firepower demo to see a elderly Mig27 make a low level run firing its cannon or a Mig21bison fire some rockets...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 May 2011 12:11

German Red and Green criticize Merkel for pushing Eurofighter in India

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 31 May 2011 12:37

chackojoseph wrote:German Red and Green criticize Merkel for pushing Eurofighter in India

Haha! Leftists and hippies...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 12:52

someone need to ask Merkel about germany and its munna austria rejecting to supply HK/Steyr kit to J&K , Chattisgarh and Gujarat police though. embarass her in public and make sure their Govts know our displeasure.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 May 2011 13:40

Singha,

You can forget about the GOI expressing displeasure when it comes to the BJP ruled states. The furiners know this, thats why they get away with such acts.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 31 May 2011 18:13

snahata wrote:The economies of spain, UK and Italy is in shambles and money talks . If we are to invest a massive amount of our hard earned cash which may come to in the range of 30-40 billion dollars or even more over the lifecycle of this aircraft we better get that engine and radar tech otherwise they would have had us for suckers.

The EF consortium will in all probability offer more in terms of technology than the French.

Secondly, while the Spanish economy is going through tumultuous period, its considered the healthiest of the PIGS, and in any case EADS CASA's involvement in the EF is marginal (13% - will be diluted further if EF is ordered). The Italian economy is broadly speaking quite stable. The UK on the other hand is in same state as France - its public finances are in better order while its private debt is somewhat overextended. Germany of course is much better condition.

Point is, France is no safer an option than UK + Germany.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 May 2011 18:30

Eurofighter will have no end user monitoring and on location inspection clauses for India

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 31 May 2011 18:43

GD, I think it is far more embarassing that a UN Security Council wannabe (India) needs to import small arms like it was a Sudan or Congo. Please see Col. Shukla latest article on defense indigenization. It is the greatest indictment of the socialist incompetence that is India's defense insutrial sector. In any self respecting country "leaders" who were responsible for such criminal incompetence would be shot in the streets. In India we would probably have to import the bullets to get the job done.

At least we are getting a high altitude engine test facility and wind tunnel out of the C-17 purchase. But as lond as the GOI owns all of the MIC, we will continue to import 85-90% of items other than boots, blankets and parachutes.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 May 2011 19:15

chackojoseph wrote:Eurofighter will have no end user monitoring and on location inspection clauses for India

ah hah!.. so not all Germans have the same understanding.. pressure why they should do this no agreement business, and losing all control rights..

rafale++

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 31 May 2011 19:25

tejas wrote:At least we are getting a high altitude engine test facility and wind tunnel out of the C-17 purchase. But as lond as the GOI owns all of the MIC, we will continue to import 85-90% of items other than boots, blankets and parachutes.

Did I miss this news somehow? Do you have a link?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 19:28

pls check the indian mil aviation thread.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 31 May 2011 20:10

Rafale in Combat: “War for Dummies”
(Source: defense-aerospace.com; posted May 31, 2011)

By Giovanni de Briganti

Two French air force Rafales, a single-seater and a two-seater, refuel on their way to Libya. Both carry AASM guided bombs, MICA air-to-air missiles and drop tanks, while the single-seater also carries a Damoclès targeting pod on its centerline pylon. (French AF photo) RAFALETOWN, Corsica --- French air force Rafale combat aircraft deployed here as part of the UN-sanctioned Libyan No-Fly Zone are for the first time making full use of the aircraft’s “omnirole” capabilities, which allow a single aircraft to carry out the full gamut of missions during a single sortie.

Pilots of the eight-ship Rafale detachment based here at Solenzara air base in Corsica, and provisionally dubbed “Rafaletown,” routinely take off with four MICA air-to-air missiles, three or six AASM Hammer precision-guided bombs, a Thales Damoclès laser targeting pod or a Reco NG reconnaissance pod and two drop tanks. They can be tasked or re-tasked in flight, and routinely are, to fly combat air patrol, precision strike or reconnaissance missions during the same six- or seven-hour sortie.

The AASM, or Armement Air-Sol Modulaire which carries the NATO designation SBU-38, is a precision-guided bomb developed by Sagem, and exists in two versions, with inertial/GPS or inertial/GPS/infrared imaging guidance. A laser-guided version is being developed.

“Rafale was involved in Libya from Day One, and we fly several missions during a single sortie,” says detachment commander Lt. Col. Pierre G., stressing that “Omnirole Rafale” is not simply an advertising slogan but an accurate description of the aircraft’s very real capabilities. “Over Libya, the Rafale flies all kinds of missions, carrying out strike assignments and reconnaissance with the Reco NG pod while conducting our main mission, which is combat air patrol. Pierre G. and other Rafale pilots spoke to reporters during a two-day tour organized by the French defense procurement agency, DGA, and the companies involved in the Rafale program. Because of operational security, pilots are referred to by their first name, or not identified at all.

Pilots say the Rafale’s networked sensors and systems make their job much easier and much more effective than with previous-generation fighters. “Two Rafales carry as much ordnance as two Mirage 2000-5 and four Mirage 2000D combined,” notes Pierre G., adding that their sensor capabilities “are much greater even than that.”

The Rafales work in a truly networked environment, and are fed targeting and other tactical data from a wide range of coalition sources through the Link 16 datalink. Incoming data is combined with that collected by the aircraft’s own sensors – Thales SPECTRA self-protection suite, OSF electro-optics, RBE-2 radar and even the infra-red guided version of MBDA’s MICA air-to-air missile which, as it scans continuously, can provide IR imagery to the central data processing system. “MICA is not just a missile, it’s an extra sensor as well,” says Pierre G., and its detection range is much longer than generally supposed.

Data from all on-board and off-board sensors are combined into a single tactical picture presented to the pilot on the cockpit’s central color display or, if desired, on one of the lateral displays. The pilot can select the data he wants, combine it with other data, and pass it on to his wingman or to other allied aircraft, ships or ground troops through the Link 16, without speaking a single word on the radio and, if not using the radar, without any transmission whatsoever. Link 16 can also be used to de-conflict assignments with other aircraft without using radios.

To illustrate the Rafale’s networking capabilities, one pilot described how the aircraft can receive target coordinates from an AWACS or another aircraft via Link 16. To accept the assignment, the pilot pushes a button, and the coordinates are automatically programmed into the AASM guided bombs, with no further action by the pilot who, once in range (up to 30 nautical miles), again pushes a single button to launch all three – or all six – AASMs to their individual targets. “We can fire the AASM against targets abeam or behind us, and can hit up to six in a single pass,” the pilot continues.

At Solenzara, reporters were shown video footage taken during a ground attack mission in Libya, in which three tanks said to be firing against civilian targets were destroyed by simultaneous direct hits by AASM.

To avoid overloading the pilot, the aircraft’s central computer prioritizes targets according to the threat they represent, and there are also modes to de-clutter the radar scope. The pilot can also decide to concentrate on a given aspect of the mission, and come back to others aspects.

The flight line at Solenzara, showing a mix of single-seat and two-seat Rafale fighters. The base has been dubbed “Rafaletown” by French pilots. (French AF photo)

In a similar vein, the system analyzes and combines tactical information received from all sensors; for example, “if you receive a track from an AWACS, from your SPECTRA self-protection suite, or from your ‘wingee’ at the same time, the system will analyze all the inputs and show you only one track.”

Another pilot simply says that “the Rafale’s man-machine interface is so good it’s like ‘war for dummies’.”

Rafale pilots are also very complementary about their SPECTRA self-protection suite, which is of critical importance as France does not have any aircraft dedicated to the Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) missions. “SPECTRA allowed us to begin operations over Libya the very same day the political decision was taken, and to fly deep into Libyan territory without an escort,” says one pilot, adding that “the Americans also flew in, but only after they had fired 119 Tomahawks to take out Libyan air defenses.”

Rafale’s capabilities are changing the way the French air force operates. Previously, distinct pilot “communities” developed around each of the main missions flown – air defense, ground attack, strike, etc. – and lived more or less independently of each other. With the Rafale, however, this phenomenon is fading away since any unit, any aircraft and any pilot fly air-defense, strike or ground attack missions, as required. Specialization will disappear, several officers said, to be replaced by fewer but far more flexible aircraft and pilots.

“The idea that a single aircraft can be re-tasked in flight from reconnaissance to strike to interception during the same sortie is truly revolutionary, and we’re just now beginning to understand all that this implies,” says one officer.

This flexibility also translates into a major advantage for operational management, because any available Rafale can be tasked for any mission, without needing, as in the past, for a given aircraft-weapon combination to be available.

Missions from Solenzara are flown in two waves each day, one in daytime and the other at night, and the Rafales fire GPS-guided AASMs or laser-guided GBU-12 bombs on almost every mission. One Rafale also fired two Scalp cruise missiles, but so far the detachment has not fired the 30mm cannon as the minimum altitude mandated by the air staff is too high to use guns to good effect. Transit to Libya is flown at 50% power setting, which translates to Mach 0.9 cruise speed even with six AASM bombs and two large underwing drop tanks.

The detachment deployed at Solenzara comprises eight Rafales – a mix of single- and two-seaters – and three Mirage F-1CR dedicated reconnaissance aircraft, with 20 aircrew and supported by about 100 ground staff, 70% of them for Rafale, and 30 people to operate the intelligence detachment. Since Operation Harmattan (the French designation for enforcing the Libya No-Fly Zone) began on March 19, the detachment has flown 2,200 flight hours with over 1,500 in-flight refuellings, initially from their main operating base at Saint Dizier, in north-eastern France, and subsequently from Solenzara.

Aircraft turn-around, even with live weapons on board, requires only 90 minutes and an engine change requires one hour, although none have been changed during current operations.

Because of the time wasted flying from Solenzara to Libya, France is negotiating to transfer its Rafale detachment to Sigonella air base, in Sicily, which is much closer to the combat area. For the same reason, French air force Mirages have already been redeployed to Crete.

Maintenance requirements of the Rafale are about 25% lower than for the Mirage 2000, and there is no scheduled or preventive maintenance; maintenance depends only on the type of mission flown, and on the condition of components. Pilots at Solenzara say that, in just over two months of operations, no missions were aborted because of aircraft unavailability, and detachment commander Lt. Col. Pierre G. says that the availability rate is close to 100%.

Pilots interviewed for this story clearly love their aircraft. In addition to the electronics, they praise the comfort of their seat and its semi-reclined position, the effectiveness of the cockpit air conditioning (“I’ve never seen any condensation,” says one pilot) and the ease of adapting to the side-stick controller which, on Rafale, replaces the conventional central control stick. These are not necessarily major aspects, notes one pilot, “but after a few days of high-intensity combat, a Rafale pilot will be in much better shape than one flying another aircraft.”

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... mies”.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XASz1fex4Mg

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 31 May 2011 20:47

http://frontierindia.net/german-red-and ... r-in-india

some german political parties not happy with eurofighter offer to India. Looks like unkil was disappointed that f/16/18 werent bought so they are trying to manipulate the german politics .

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 31 May 2011 21:51

Rafale in Combat: “War for Dummies”
(Source: defense-aerospace.com; posted May 31, 2011)

Pilots say the Rafale’s networked sensors and systems make their job much easier and much more effective than with previous-generation fighters. “Two Rafales carry as much ordnance as two Mirage 2000-5 and four Mirage 2000D combined,” notes Pierre G., adding that their sensor capabilities “are much greater even than that.”

Is it still wiser to spend two and half billion on upgrades..??

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 31 May 2011 22:06

Indian mirage upgrade will bring them to the mirage 2000-9 standard which is significantly more advanced than the vanilla "dash five". It is multirole and takes several elements coming from the rafale starting by the central computer. It also shares many weapon in common like mica IR and EM, Exocet, SCALP cruise missiles, damocles LDP. AASM is a possible option as well if required by india.

French mirage 2000-5 are pure air to air assets and mirage 2000D sensors are now outdated so indian upgraded mirages would be more capable.

Because the mirage 2000-9 shares some common avionics and weapons with the rafale, the mirage 2000-9 + rafale combo would certainly be cost effective and easy to induct in the IAF.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 May 2011 22:14

Upgrades are fine as long as the costs don't near a new a/c. So, care must be taken here.. no point upgrading features on your PC when you core MB is operating with old processor, and at half the cost. When you are done upgrading, we could consider new line of requirements as well. Retiring M2K on the basis of MMRCA inclusion, staged and planned could be an option.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 31 May 2011 22:22

I agee that the number of types in the IAF is already huge and phasing out the mirage 2000 against the MMRCA aircraft could make sense. But it seems the the IAF has taken the option to uprade the mirage...In that case the commonality shared with the rafale would be an asset.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 May 2011 22:24

Sometimes it seems that the reason why Eurofighter has been kept in the two finalists is to get a better financial deal from the French.

Wonder which one will win.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 31 May 2011 23:51

arthuro wrote:CAS and AtG :

Considering the size of Pakistan and China and the number of potential threats range or persistence is an very valuable factor.

Have you considered the size of Pakistan? Considered the lack of strategic depth, that is?

With regard to China, its important to understand this isn't Libya or Iraq. You can't simply go wander off deep inside their airspace and then expect to come home comfortably.

It would be foolish to neglect strategic valued threats be it during a conventional warfare or for preemptive strikes. It would also be foolish not to consider other tactical situations requiring range or persistence. In short more fuel will help you to brace for a wider type of missions profile more effectively. Rafale fuel advantage makes it a more flexible asset than the typhoon.

Question is, by what degree is it more flexible?

For example how important is the ability to carry 2000L instead of 1000L fuel tanks? The EF's airframe and FCS software are configured to carry two 2000L tanks but they haven't been integrated because it hampers the EF's ability to go supersonic.

With two 2000L, how critical is the ability to carry those two extra PGMs? The RAF was looking to replace their Jaguars in ground strike (in addition to air-to-air roles) and didn't require an aircraft carrying a huge payload. Like the Luftwaffe they already had an aircraft in the Panavia Tornado for long range operations (similar to the IAF's Su-30MKI today). The AdlA on the other hand had to complement its lighter fighter in the Mirage-2000 and needed a jet stressed for heavier payloads.

The AdlA according to you found that the ability to carry more than 6 AASMs was superfluous, so you've apparently put a big premium on the ability to carry 6 bombs, while being dismissive of the MKIs capacity for more than 8 PGMs. You seem to be simply carrying over the AdlA's requirements to the IAF, without taking into account its operational requirements?

You say IAF is not interested. Please bring a source, otherwise it is unnecessary to write in capital as it is just an opinion among others. Internet is full of self proclaimed expert and that’s not writing in capital which will make your point.

Writing in capitals? With regard to Kashmir you mean? I'm not an expert and I don't pretend to be one, but it doesn't take an expert to know that the IAF's fighters are not and have never been involved in COIN operations in Kashmir or the North-East. And no I can't produce a source proving something that never took place, but like I said before - ask around (I usually use the Newbie thread) or go through the COIN/J&K archives. Also, if you google around you'll find the IAF's chief on record saying that use of heavy airpower (vis-a-vis light utility roles) within the country wa inadvisable.

My point is that EF range is insufficient regarding AtG, especially given its size and its price. It will put a constraint for most missions planning and will prevent India to realize far reaching missions. It also lacks stand-off weapons to perform in a challenging environment.

I see. What range would you say is 'sufficient'? Does the MKI have sufficient range?

And like always I'll ask - what targets do you suppose these 'far reaching missions' will be looking to hit? Regarding stand-weapons - the Paveway-IVs can be launched from a fairly long distance, and the IAF will be integrating an independently acquired long range standoff weapon.

Also you say 'given its price'. I guess you're assuming that development costs will not be passed onto the consumer. Because if they are:-

EUROFIGHTER:

Total program cost : $96 billion
Units contracted: 560
Unit cost: $170 million

http://www.channel4.com/news/multibilli ... d-revealed
(Assuming the UK financed 1/3 of the program) (Includes Tranche 3 spending)

RAFALE

Total program cost: $53 billion
Units contracted: 180
Unit cost: $295 million

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-2 ... tback.html

Of course if the development cost isn't passed on and the cost of the aircraft is simply what HAL is expected to incur (plus imported components), they would be at par.

You could argue that the Mki could take on those missions but I don’t believe so as it lacks the level of sensor integration and sensor fusion to react effectively in a multiple threat environment. The rafale has the ability to work simultaneously in AtG and AtA with the pilot in the back seat which is also an asset in this kind of missions. 360° AESA jamming and a lower RCS is also an asset.

What is 'those missions'? I assume you're referring to CAS. The MKI flies with an WSO without making any compromises on fuel and has much higher endurance. The availability of the WSO reduces the requirement for integrating the feedback from air-to-air and air-to-ground sensors in flight. The lower RCS is useful but can be offset to an extent by using stand-off weaponry against air defences first.

AASM

How could you believe a free fall bomb will match a propelled AASM? You are dreaming here or you take the scenario where the typhoon would fly at mach 1, 5+ at very high altitude. With 6 Paveway IV and other stores it will not reach those speeds nor would it be practical/feasible operationally. The typhoon is not an F22 with its store in a weapon bay.

Free falls bombs cannot fly far. Okay. Understood.

BTW what do I call the JSOW (130km), JDAM-ER (80km), Spice (60 km), Small Diameter Bomb (110km), HOPE/HOSBO (160 km)?

Non rocket assisted missiles?

The HOPE/HOSBO is on offer to India and with the Luftwaffe integrating the JDAM on its Eurofighters, that's another option if the IAF is interested.

The Typhoon has also not proved that it could lock onto SAM sites emission to extract the precise coordinates as Spectra does with the rafale. For these two reasons the Typhoon is unable to perform AtG duties is challenging environments. That’s a big shortcoming in a conventional warfare.

How has the Rafale proven it? And how would you suggest the EF go about 'proving' it?

The AASM price you give is also plain wrong. The price paid by the French taxpayer is 143 000€ per copy for the initial batch. You cannot find a better source as it is from the published price by the French Assembly. France as ordered more than 4000 AASM from all versions and more than 200 have already been used in Afghanistan and Lybia so yes it can be used in relativly large quantities.

According to La tribune newspaper, the CPRA (french equivalent of the british GAO) is pointing out the excessive cost of the Sagem AASM smart bomb used on the Rafale.
La tribune reports that a single AASM would cost €351,158 to the french tax payer (total program cost of €846 million for 2,346 units). The high price would be mainly due to the 3-4 years delay during the devellopment of the weapon caused by program management issues.

Sagem has denied those figures on the well known "Secret Defense" blog, stating that the french armed forces will buy some 4,148 AASM, bringing down the total unit price to €200,000.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2010/08/ ... nsive.html

The CPRA if I understand correctly is the French Senate's 'Arms Production Accounting Committee'.

Even €143,000 (I assume that's the production cost as opposed to the total cost) amounts to $205,000 at current exchange rates. Still an expensive proposition.

Brimstones and other AtG weapons.

Three weeks ago a French delegation travelled in Britain to talk about brimstones integration with the rafale. As for the typhoon brimstone integration is pure speculation at this stage. The rafale already uses the GBU12 and GBU22, the integration of the paveway IV should therefore not pose any challenge. It is also worth to note that the French navy already uses the Paveway IV extensively with the Super Etandard.
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... ale.html[u]

A French delegation talks about the Brimstone in London and its as good as integrated. The Eurofighter on the other will have the capability of employing the Brimstone (and Storm Shadow) with the RAF's Service Release Package 14 upgrade, but its still 'pure speculation'.

Also IIRC the Super Etendard employs the Enhanced Paveway II not the Paveway IV, even though the base munition is the same.

Spectra and LPI:

On a more serious note, you're simply ignoring how AESA radars work in LPI mode. Broadcasting a very low powered signal spread over many dozens of frequencies simultaneously, 'encrypted' within the background noise, means that the Spectra's RWR will never be able to isolate a continually hopping signal let alone get a 3D ranging solution
That’s just not how LPI works. Several weak signals from different frequencies emitted will result in very short range detection. LPI is indeed frequency changing but you need the sufficient emitting power on a given frequency to detect a fighter at long ranges. A less capable RWR will detect the emission but will not mange to have a lock due to rapid frequency changes. Spectra is continuously upgraded to have this edge in terms of processing power to beat the opposing radar in using LPI techniques.

All the 'weak signals' are integrated by receiver, the net power reflected is the same as if all the component signals were transmitted in narrow frequency pulse.

The SPECTRA would first of all have to detect the pulses that will be spread across frequencies in a pseudorandom sequence indistinguishable from background noise and then attempt to 'decipher' it for a range value.

Spectra “big upgrade” as already been officially launched to remain relevant well in the next decade. So yes it will be able to lock onto newer AESA radar as it already certainly did against SH APG-79.

Its only your opinion that it was able to lock onto an AESA radar unless the USN prevented the SH from operating in full LPI mode for operational security reasons.

Spectra is a accomplished self-protection system that we are developping every day with programming, testing and with software and hardware updates: month after month ,Spectra is evolving.In my opinion, i think we are currently using only 2/3 of Spectra capacities:
(same link as above for the full article)

Better Spectra capabilities doesn't mean much when there is no benchmark.

Mirage upgrade:

If the mirage 2000 upgrade is eventually signed going for the rafale will bring substantial economies in using a common weapon reserve. Given that the rafale will be also be cheaper to buy and operate it is definitively the L1 solution. The rafale also beneficiates from the good reputation of the mirage 2000 in the IAF. For these reason going for the rafale is the certainly the safest option.

The Meteor will be the BVR weapon of choice for the MRCA. Only limited number of MICAs will be ordered if the Rafale is opted for. For that matter there even the EF will share the Litening-III pod with between 300 to 400 units in the IAF's fleet. The AASM, Damocles or Exocet are not being integrated as a part of the IAF's Mirage upgrade to the best of my knowledge.

Offsets :

As far as partnership is concerned we should wait for dassault commercial proposal. There is certainly more to share when you are two (France and India) than when you will become one of the member of a five nation partnership.

France wasn't willing to share design leadership of the FEFA with UK and Germany. Are you sincerely telling me that it will let India onto the more classified aspects of the Rafale? Will their be any Indian participation in the Rafale's future development?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jun 2011 00:07

arthuro wrote:I agee that the number of types in the IAF is already huge and phasing out the mirage 2000 against the MMRCA aircraft could make sense. But it seems the the IAF has taken the option to uprade the mirage...In that case the commonality shared with the rafale would be an asset.

I don't think IAF has exercised this option yet, and taken an irreversible stand on this.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Jun 2011 00:16

Boreas wrote:
Rafale in Combat: “War for Dummies”
(Source: defense-aerospace.com; posted May 31, 2011)

Pilots say the Rafale’s networked sensors and systems make their job much easier and much more effective than with previous-generation fighters. “Two Rafales carry as much ordnance as two Mirage 2000-5 and four Mirage 2000D combined,” notes Pierre G., adding that their sensor capabilities “are much greater even than that.”
Is it still wiser to spend two and half billion on upgrades..??

Trouble is it costs close to a new aircraft but still has only half the operational life - no extension of the airframe's life is including.

IMO it would better to let them retire along with the Jaguars and MiG-27MLs bought in the same period, while buying an additional 40 EFs or Rafales off-the-shelf (independent of whether the option for the additional 74 is taken). Alternatively (perhaps preferably) the Tejas' production line could be enlarged.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Jun 2011 00:18

SaiK wrote:
arthuro wrote:I agee that the number of types in the IAF is already huge and phasing out the mirage 2000 against the MMRCA aircraft could make sense. But it seems the the IAF has taken the option to uprade the mirage...In that case the commonality shared with the rafale would be an asset.

I don't think IAF has exercised this option yet, and taken an irreversible stand on this.

A TRIBUNE special
The IAF dilemma: To upgrade its Mirage fleet or buy new jets

Man Mohan
Our Roving Editor

New Delhi, May 25
The Indian Air Force has a dilemma: should it go ahead and upgrade it’s 51-strong Mirage fleet or purchase new fighters for Mirages’ specific role? Talks between the Ministry of Defence and Mirage’s French manufacturer Dassault are in the final stage and a decision is expected soon.

Upgrade of the French Dassault M2000 fighter aircraft would cost a whopping Rs 14,400 crore but it does not include the cost of procuring new weaponry worth Rs 80 crore.

If the Defence Ministry and the manufacturer sign the agreement, Dassault will supply four upgraded aircraft and kits to upgrade the remaining 47 aircraft to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Roughly Rs 4,500 crore is to be spent by HAL on the upgrade. It will also charge nearly Rs 900 crore for the furnished items.

A section of the IAF top brass feels that the upgrade cost is too high as the officers say that buying a new fighter would work out cheaper.

“Avionics and weaponry are complementary but their capabilities don’t always match. The upgrade process is very complicated and thorough and has to be very convincing for it to be approved,” said Air Marshal (retired) D. Keeler - hero of the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak wars. Mirage fighters were inducted in the IAF during Keeler’s tenure in the mid-eighties. “Upgradation is always planned on the future lifespan of the airframe and engines,” he added.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110526/main2.htm

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Jun 2011 00:53

I know that a decision is awaited. I said "it seems" as the negotiation are over and waiting a final decision. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough.

So I should have used "if". If the mirage 2000 upgrade deal is eventually signed the avionics and weapons commonalities would make a rafale choice more logic.

As for Viv S answer, last article posted above (Rafale in Lybia) worths more than a thousand responses

I let people to make their own opinion.
(sorry but this debate is rounding in circles, every thing as been said, I believe that rafale record in Lybia as explained in the article show the best the flexibility of the rafale over the typhoon.)

some selected parts :

even the infra-red guided version of MBDA’s MICA air-to-air missile which, as it scans continuously, can provide IR imagery to the central data processing system. “MICA is not just a missile, it’s an extra sensor as well,” says Pierre G., and its detection range is much longer than generally supposed.

“SPECTRA allowed us to begin operations over Libya the very same day the political decision was taken, and to fly deep into Libyan territory without an escort,” says one pilot, adding that “the Americans also flew in, but only after they had fired 119 Tomahawks to take out Libyan air defenses.”

to illustrate the Rafale’s networking capabilities, one pilot described how the aircraft can receive target coordinates from an AWACS or another aircraft via Link 16. To accept the assignment, the pilot pushes a button, and the coordinates are automatically programmed into the AASM guided bombs, with no further action by the pilot who, once in range (up to 30 nautical miles), again pushes a single button to launch all three – or all six – AASMs to their individual targets. “We can fire the AASM against targets abeam or behind us, and can hit up to six in a single pass,” the pilot continues.

Transit to Libya is flown at 50% power setting, which translates to Mach 0.9 cruise speed even with six AASM bombs and two large underwing drop tanks.

(...) routinely take off with four MICA air-to-air missiles, three or six AASM Hammer precision-guided bombs, a Thales Damoclès laser targeting pod or a Reco NG reconnaissance pod and two drop tanks. They can be tasked or re-tasked in flight, and routinely are, to fly combat air patrol, precision strike or reconnaissance missions during the same six- or seven-hour sortie.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 01 Jun 2011 01:22

arthuro wrote:
Rafale in Combat: “War for Dummies”
(Source: defense-aerospace.com; posted May 31, 2011)

But the French used cruise missiles as well and most of all cruise missiles launched targeted the area around Tripoli and not Benghazi where Rafale began its strikes. They are trying to make it sound like the Americans had to use cruise missiles because they "lack the capabilities of Spectra". Of course they have that capability, in numbers and more powerful ones.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2011 01:27

Please dont quote the whole post to reply.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 01 Jun 2011 01:29

Henrik wrote:But the French used cruise missiles as well and most of all cruise missiles launched targeted the area around Tripoli and not Benghazi where Rafale began its strikes. They are trying to make it sound like the Americans had to use cruise missiles because they "lack the capabilities of Spectra". Of course they have that capability, in numbers and more powerful ones.

The US dedicated EW aircrafts (Growlers) were not available in the early hours of the conflict. Without them other legacy aircrafts are at risks. Spectra allowed the rafale to perform early strikes with sufficient survivability without the need of specialized aircrafts. It is worths to note that the rafale was the first aircraft to offer an AESA jamming suite and it is still unique in europe. The 3 AESA EW antennas on the rafale allows omnidirectional jamming.

For this reason the US had to perform a massive tomahawk strike on lybian air defenses to clear the way for safer strikes for the next days.

other articles (extract)

Sead in Lybia

During these strikes, Rafales utilized on-board sensor fusion, to integrate data obtained from on-board sensors and external sources, delivered over Link-16. This capability enabled pilots to generate strike coordinates based on real-time data, and feed it to the weapon in flight. The French fighters succeeded to hit the active sites with AASM, launching the weapons from long distance, outside the SA-3 launch envelope. Since each individual weapon is programmed with specific target coordinates, multiple weapons can be employed from the attacking aircraft, against different targets. Each weapon can be reprogrammed before launch, enabling it to engage several targets simultaneously.

In the UAE :

And, December 6, a MICA has been assigned its target - indeed virtually destroyed - only with the SPECTRA system. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify - and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope - some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the American F-16 CJ specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect.. Certainly, the F-16 CJ in question had not been equipped during the flights with their common SEAD equipment, namely the HTS pod (HARM Targeting System), while their threats library had not been refreshed to integrate some of the air defense radars in the area. SEAD was not their daily mission. But it was not either the case for the Rafale. And yet, the Spectra, with no other equipment than those onboard daily, has done better than the F-16 CJ which, however, are specialized in the SEAD mission. That's the difference between multirole who need to return to land on its base to switch from one type to another mission and versatility that allows flight operations at the same time in different roles. It also demonstrates, incidentally, the ability of the AdA to quickly take advantage of "hostile" ground-radar records tunes operated the day before and to integrate them into the rafale SPECTRA library. This allowed the Rafale to classify them without any difficulty.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 02 Jun 2011 03:17

Abu Dhabi Crown Prince had told Sarkozy that UAE may not opt for Rafale (they have been in the process of negotiations for years now) and dropped hints that they may get the F-16 instead in the conversation.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Jun 2011 05:35

ashthor wrote:Just a thought ..... might have been asked before...

Why upgrade the 50 Mirages....why not replace them with say 50-60 Rafale?

We can replace the the Mirages with Rafale and go for the Typhoon

Equally ignorant answer.

One bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

50 birds in hand gets upgraded instead of waiting for 5 years to get them delivered.

Secondly, Yindoo-baniya mindset; nothing is waste. Make use of everything you can.

manum · Post by **manum** » 02 Jun 2011 06:15

^^^ actually I have a feeling that French will get mirage upgrade and the new orders will go to EF...it just completes the circle...
I am not sure about L1, but i've repeated elsewhere too that, Eurojet has a experience of loosing in L1 race, so they'll do a careful calculation in this proposal, lots of background work will go into it.
I still think choosing Eurojet for LCA would have done better for it, specially AMCA for just in case scenario...as we need a quick turnaround in engine department. It has turned into Achilles heels everyone is aiming to shoot down our future programs.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 02 Jun 2011 06:46

Can Germany or EADS partners give assurance that in future there will no sanctions/bans or blacklisting just like they did for Gujarath & other states.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jun 2011 06:51

Unless and until India becomes independent no such assurances can be taken at face value. Politics being politics each side will always take advantage of the situation.

Having said that, IF India were to select the EF, then India should get some parts of the plane to manufacture in India. Which should be enough to make the other partners think twice. (One reason why I would prefer the Ef over the Rafale.)

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 02 Jun 2011 19:29

arthuro wrote:The US dedicated EW aircrafts (Growlers) were not available in the early hours of the conflict. Without them other legacy aircrafts are at risks. Spectra allowed the rafale to perform early strikes with sufficient survivability without the need of specialized aircrafts. It is worths to note that the rafale was the first aircraft to offer an AESA jamming suite and it is still unique in europe. The 3 AESA EW antennas on the rafale allows omnidirectional jamming.

For this reason the US had to perform a massive tomahawk strike on lybian air defenses to clear the way for safer strikes for the next days.

To clear the way for French aircrafts to operate in western Libya as well. To think that France somehow is superior to the US in terms of technology and numbers is laughable. They used over a hundred cruise missiles because they could, thus paving the way for aircrafts from all nations, including french, to operate safely over western Libya.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jun 2011 19:32

If one doesnt have such numbers of Cruise Missiles, then its better to go for that type of aircraft no?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jun 2011 19:46

Henrik wrote:To clear the way for French aircrafts to operate in western Libya as well. To think that France somehow is superior to the US in terms of technology and numbers is laughable. They used over a hundred cruise missiles because they could, thus paving the way for aircrafts from all nations, including french, to operate safely over western Libya.

That is not what arthuro meant. He was just stating that Rafale was used to take out SAM sites because the aircraft has the capability to do so. Everyone - including Arthuro - knows that France is not superior to America in technology or numbers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jun 2011 20:03

kmc_chacko wrote:Can Germany or EADS partners give assurance that in future there will no sanctions/bans or blacklisting just like they did for Gujarath & other states.

keep a hold of 10/15% money as IoU, with a hold on clause for 20 years on such liquidated damages.

but but, what will they do, if say german public go raasta roko and unparliamentary attacks, try to corner else where?

a relied trusted friend in need is a friend in deed. but, we have none from that perspective, but only a shade better in terms of Russia and Fr.

self reliance should be the goal, keeping this in mind. concentrate and focus on where we have to rely on, and such projects gets more money.. and don't attack such projects like our friend parasoon gupta.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Jun 2011 21:39

Henrick,

US has the mean to have specialized EW aircrafts. As france can't rely on specialized asset the rafale must have a robust EW suite especially as it needs to fulfil the nuclear deterrence role.

So it is less a question of technology than a question of doctrine and means. I think you misunderstood my previous post. I never said that the technology used is exclusive to the rafale, but the "originality" is that this technology is incorporated in a standard/unspecialised fighter jet.

The 3 AESA jamming antennas allow very effective omni directional jamming and the passive part of spectra allows very accurate 3D-geolocation of a radar emitter.

These features were deemed sufficient to fly over Lybia first without the assistance of specialised assets.

One should not forget that as part of the nuclear deterrence rafale spectra receive “exceptional” funding to ensure the rafale remains a credible tool. Especially as it is not a full stealth aircraft. I am not trying to say that the technology in itself is better than the US, just that as a tool that helps rafale ensuring its strategic role, spectra has been developed as a very robust EW suite. It is still unique in Europe and I don’t think that US as anything similar (in terms of implementation) on a baseline fighter jet for the moment.

F22, SH block2 or F35 also use or will use AESA jamming but it is limited to the radar envelop thus in the front sector.

US cruise missiles helped mirages 2000 and F1 and other conventional aircraft for the strikes the next days.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2011 21:40

to illustrate the Rafale’s networking capabilities, one pilot described how the aircraft can receive target coordinates from an AWACS or another aircraft via Link 16. To accept the assignment, the pilot pushes a button, and the coordinates are automatically programmed into the AASM guided bombs, with no further action by the pilot who, once in range (up to 30 nautical miles), again pushes a single button to launch all three – or all six – AASMs to their individual targets. “We can fire the AASM against targets abeam or behind us, and can hit up to six in a single pass,” the pilot continues.

impressive. I agree that countries like India who cannot deploy 100s of cruise missiles to soften air defences on a continuous basis need all the onboard EW protection they can get.