India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 04 Nov 2011 20:45

So since detailed calculations seem to be required, does this mean the two bids are within 15% of each other? That seems surprising given that the price one sees for the Rafale is usually much lower than EF.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 04 Nov 2011 21:28

sohels wrote:So since detailed calculations seem to be required, does this mean the two bids are within 15% of each other?


No, it just means that the bids are complex and it takes time to compare them.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Christopher Sidor » 04 Nov 2011 21:31

AmitG wrote:We have been talking about JSF killing AMCA. But as far as I know, AMCA is still a plane on paper. We are still talking about FOC for LCA Mk-1 and LCA Mk-2 is still in the pipeline. We have imported AJTs and also are looking for importing basic trainers. Our indigenous efforts at developing the Kaveri engine have still not borne fruits. We needed an external consultant. And on top of this, the red-tapism and slow moving procurement process puts the nation's security at risk. MMRCA is an example of that.

Totally agree with you. AMCA is a proposal. It will take atleast 10 years for it to fly. We cannot compare F-35 with AMCA

AmitG wrote:I also do not understand that if we will reject both Rafale and Typhoon because of the price, then what was the need of going through such an elaborate process. I sincerely hope that MoD selects one of them after such a gruelling long procurement process.

We reject Rafale and EFT for one reason alone. Their inability to give us overwhelming advantage over the Chinese fighters over Tibet and East Turkestan and also over the Chinese air-defense systems. We only have one fighter that can prevail over both of these systems currently SU-30MKI. Pit the capabilities of F-35 against, Rafale or EFT or Su-27 or J-10 or any current plane in Chinese inventory. I am purposefully keeping J-20 out of the equation as there are too many variables.

There is also another reason why we should reject EFT and Rafale. We are competing with the Chinese quantity with quality. That is where F-35 wins hands down.

AmitG wrote:On other hand,aircraft design and development is a very complex process. We have also not followed the Chinese short-cuts of reverse engineering.

I believe what we are good at is - Avionics, software, possibly Radar and aircraft assembly. In my opinion (and I am a newbie here), a better option would have been to work with a partner say US, take one of their aircrafts as base, fit in our own avionics, software, spend efforts on developing an AESA radar and then manufacture a large number of such aircrafts. Su-30MKI is a very good example of this. And then enhance the aircraft further. Why not take an F-16 and fit it to our requirements. Such aircraft may not be exported to other countries in order to keep the partner countries interests.

F-16 & F/A-18 SH are all 4th generation fighters. With due respect to Hi-Lo mix, I simply fail to comprehend the fascination with the 4th generation fighters. To me it almost seems that we are hell bent on fighting yesterdays war, i.e. war with Pakistan, instead of preparing for the wars of future, i.e. with China. Against Pakistan EFT and Typhoon make sense. I am not too convinced that against Chinese any of these fighter makes sense. Rather spend the same amount of money on AMCA or creating a 5th generation LCA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 04 Nov 2011 21:50

may I know if its was decided the bids were complex and would take some time evaluate why were they kept in a locked safe all these months? who was cooking rice in the meantime? couldnt it have been opened when EF and Rafale teams deposited the envelope months ago and arrived at decision by now?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 04 Nov 2011 22:00

Singha wrote:may I know if its was decided the bids were complex and would take some time evaluate why were they kept in a locked safe all these months? who was cooking rice in the meantime? couldnt it have been opened when EF and Rafale teams deposited the envelope months ago and arrived at decision by now?


I believe they didn't want any knowledge of the bids to taint the ToT negotiations.

As in the results of the ToT negotiations will be included in the bid 'price'. If the competitors knew the bids beforehand, they would know exactly how little they could get away with and still win.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Victor » 04 Nov 2011 22:58

Would it make too much sense to triple the number of bean counters and speed up the process?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 04 Nov 2011 23:00

Is it not that >15% diff between the two bids, decides the automatic winner on L1. Now, if both these have quoted within 15% in diff, then they would have to see the life cycle cost, maintenance and support, other stores and weapons package, ToT, training, offsets, etc.

I hope one of them has quoted 15% less than the other, to solve this never ending selection story.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20033 » 04 Nov 2011 23:02

arthuro wrote:I don't believe Rafale or Typhoon will be outclassed any time soon in indian neighbourhood...

Making an aircraft with a blended fuselage does not make it as advanced or so called 5th gen. In terms of engine performance or integrated avionics or production quality China is still far from offering something of the same level. They'll probably do at one point this century but not that fast.

As for the T-50 it is arguably a powerfull and impressive jet with powerfull sensors but one can wonder how integrated its avionic package will be despite latest claims. And when you look at the quality of the assemblage one can wonder if it will be as LO as advertised. Sure progress were made since the mig-29 but when you compare the F35 with the T-50 from close the difference of quality is still important : T-50 finnishing is still crude.

So we will probably have to wait a long time before it can really become a threat. Advanced fighter jets is more than just showing "blended fuselage fighters". It must become an homogene and coherent package.


Can any one elaborate between the difference between F -35 and T-50 FGFA. What kind of fithter would be FGFA and how would it be inferior/superior to F -35

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 04 Nov 2011 23:34

^^^^

Don't fret, mate, thread going weird, that's all! :)

The FGFA is closer in intent to the F-22.
Like the Raptor and EF, when it gets its definitive engines,
it should love the higher levels as far as altitude.

The F-35 is more akin to a Rafale with stealth and monomotor.
Its stealth will allow it first day strike in a high threat scenario.
But you can find pics of it with a full payload, the RCS of which
should be stealth negating.

The F-35 equivalent project in India is the AMCA.

Good ongoing wait all, Tay.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Ankit Desai » 04 Nov 2011 23:42

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2011/11/m ... rs-as.html

I was told that this deal would go upto 18 billion $ when its inked. Well, today when the bids opened, it has been upped to 15 bn $. Wonder where all the extra billions are going. Vendors keeping fingers crossed!


-Ankit

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 04 Nov 2011 23:51

we have every right to ask MoD to come out on clean statement of expenses after the bids are public.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Nov 2011 00:24

Basic question: Why could the bids not have been opened as they have now been, right after the down select?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sohels » 05 Nov 2011 00:44

The next month should bring greater clarity on the economic crisis in Europe, and on China's role in the same. This further delay could thus be desirable.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 05 Nov 2011 01:17

Cosmo_R wrote:Basic question: Why could the bids not have been opened as they have now been, right after the down select?

I could see many reasons.. one of the prime would be ToT and offset arrangements and verifications. Now for the even the supplying nations has to tie knots with many Indian companies to begin with.

As everyone knows those offset agreements are not so easy tasks and mostly both Rafale and EADS would have taken real good time in arranging the deals with local ventures, producing the documents for the bids, etc. it takes damn time for these large projects, especially when GoI norms are involved, that could specify something so abstract that they may take it positive or negative.

some thing that are positive for the suppliers will never be heard though... we will find out only after something bad experience happens after they start supplying - example, mig spares or MKI drawings not released etc.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Nov 2011 02:11

SaiK wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Basic question: Why could the bids not have been opened as they have now been, right after the down select?

I could see many reasons.. one of the prime would be ToT and offset arrangements and verifications. Now for the even the supplying nations has to tie knots with many Indian companies to begin with.

As everyone knows those offset agreements are not so easy tasks and mostly both Rafale and EADS would have taken real good time in arranging the deals with local ventures, producing the documents for the bids, etc. it takes damn time for these large projects, especially when GoI norms are involved, that could specify something so abstract that they may take it positive or negative.

some thing that are positive for the suppliers will never be heard though... we will find out only after something bad experience happens after they start supplying - example, mig spares or MKI drawings not released etc.


IIUC, you're saying that the vendors needed the time after the downselect to make the tieups for offsets. This would mean that the commercial bids they provided would not have contained any of the info and that then begs the question of what anyone would be analyzing etc. I don't get it. I thought it was some silly delay with EGOM whatever and electioneering.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 05 Nov 2011 02:23

http://www.livemint.com/2011/11/0501023 ... at-pl.html

A person with direct knowledge of the matter said that Dassault was “marginally lower” on the unit cost. Mint could not independently confirm this.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Nov 2011 02:38

GeorgeWelch wrote:http://www.livemint.com/2011/11/05010231/India-opens-bids-for-combat-pl.html

A person with direct knowledge of the matter said that Dassault was “marginally lower” on the unit cost. Mint could not independently confirm this.


Oh Jeez! This will wind up in court as usual over 'accounting methodologies' and cost calculation formulas.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kartik » 05 Nov 2011 02:45

Victor wrote:
Singha wrote:I think it just means 200 units not 126 thats all. so $100 mil

Maybe not....
The defence official said adjustments were being made to the previous estimates of $11bn for the contract as it was based on 2007 figures and needed to reflect current prices.

Either way, this is criminal for a plane that will be hopelessly outclassed in our neighborhood within 10 years.


This scare mongering is going too far now !

There is no way the Typhoon or the Rafale will be outclassed in the Indian sub-continent within the next 10 to 15 years. If that was the case, we should be seriously concerned about the MiG-29Ks, the Su-30MKIs and most honestly, about our own LCA Mk1 and Mk2. Where will they stand? Where will our Jaguar fleet stand in the next 10 years when it is going to soldier on till 2025 at least? Where will our MiG-29UPG and Mirage-2000-5 fleet stand?

Or should the IAF simply forget its dwindling numbers and hope that in the period till its classier 5th gen fighters don't arrive in numbers and that the PAF and PLAAF don't start an adventure? Did we suddenly gain all the technology that we were hoping to gain from this MRCA deal which makes it worthless? Whatever the size of this deal, keep in mind that 50% of it will come back in the form of defence offsets. As much as these two OEMs will be hoping that this deal isn't scuttled for any reason, so will our own defence production agencies, both public and private.

There is nothing that PAF can acquire in this decade that will threaten to overtake the MRCA or the Su-30MKI. a J-10B AT BEST, is a notch below the MRCA finalists and there is no way that the PAF can acquire these in any large numbers to suddenly overwhelm the IAF. The JF-17 is not in the same class as the Rafale or Typhoon and is going to be outclassed by either of these two fighters for as long as it'll be in service. And this is to be the backbone of the PAF, not the J-10. Its very unlikely that the PAF can afford either J-11B or J-20s

J-11Bs are not going to outclass the Typhoon or Rafale either. Neither are J-10A and the J-8IIs or JH-7s. The only serious competition will be with the J-20 and whatever PLAAF gets as its medium sized 5th gen fighter (whenver that is). Besides, the PLAAF too cannot afford to replace all its 3rd and 4th gen fighters with 5th gen fighters. Besides which, the PLAAF cannot dedicate all its air armada towards the Indian border. they have the Taiwanese, Japanese and Vietnamese to contend with as well and relations with none of them are too good.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby JTull » 05 Nov 2011 03:20

All good points, Kartik.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Rakesh » 05 Nov 2011 03:25

Thank you Kartik for attempting to remove the delusion of many in this forum about the Typhoon and Rafale being outclassed and outgunned. It is amazing how the J-20 has caused dhoti shiver among the Indian public and the West alike....in the former it is real albeit unfounded, while the latter serves the interests of a number of people, companies and nations. And pardon me for using the term "attempt to remove" in response to your post, because no matter what you or anyone else says...these folks have their head buried in the sand and see no logic.

Although I will respectfully disagree with your statement about the J20 being the "only serious competition." There is not an iota of data to back any of the claims that many on this forum and elsewhere are stating about the J20. Just because an aircraft with stealth features takes to the air in China, that in no way brings it on par of the F-22, F-35 or for that matter even the Eurofighter or the Rafale.

Moving on...from this link;

http://www.livemint.com/2011/11/05010231/India-opens-bids-for-combat-pl.html

"Both are European-manufactured, so there is no question of strategic implications (that) there would have been if the competition was between Russian and US companies," said Deba Mohanty, an analyst with Delhi-based Observer Research Foundation. "I think the most important consideration will not be political or strategic in that sense. It will be based solely on the satisfaction of the end-user—the Indian Air Force."


Somewhere along this entire tamasha, many forgot that very key & important point.

Major said he does not agree that the MMRCA purchase should be scrapped for the fifth-generation joint strike fighter F-35, offered by the US to India this week.

“I don’t subscribe to that,” he said, adding that this could be the view of some “vested interests”.

“Because there is an FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) programme with Russia, we already have the agreement and you cannot compare the two (fighter jets),” Major said.


The former Air Chief of the Indian Air Force claims that the MMRCA deal should not be scrapped in favour of the F-35. Now he obviously is a lot more informed about threat perceptions that the IAF is facing vis-a-vis China & Pakistan. I think that should end all discussions on that issue.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 05 Nov 2011 03:36

Rakesh wrote:The former Air Chief of the Indian Air Force claims that the MMRCA deal should not be scrapped in favour of the F-35. Now he obviously is a lot more informed about threat perceptions that the IAF is facing vis-a-vis China & Pakistan. I think that should end all discussions on that issue.


I think Sanku has already shown that opinions of Air Chiefs are irrelevant :mrgreen:

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Kartik » 05 Nov 2011 03:39

Cain Marko wrote:
SaiK wrote:$150m is not the right cost for either ef2k or rafale. it must be for more than 126 in number. if 150, then I see the argument from jasoos-f authors.


Although $ 150 mill sounds really high, we really don't know what is included in the package. AND, this price is not too different from the BRazil, Swiss, Austrian, Aussie numbers for similar a/c. Just the weapons package (meteors, micas, scalp/taurus, iris/asraam etc can be a fortune).

Freaky shit! Scrap the crap, buy available 1 sqd each of M2ks/MiG-29s/MKI at 25% of this price, upgrade entire MKI fleet with an uber upgrade, make the LCA happen, and put some extra $$s to get an early Pakfa. Set up JV for AMCA. They'll still have $$s left over to buy some force multipliers like AWACS, a few more Phalcons wouldn't hurt.

CM


Ok if the MRCA is scrapped, how much time do you think each individual thing you are suggesting will take? How much time for the IAF to identify MiG-29s, Mirages (if they are available that is) and acquire them considering the glacial speed of all our acquisition programs? What guarantee that those will not be costlier than what they should be? What weapons to acquire for them? Will they be as effective as the Rafale or Typhoon and their weapons like the Meteor, Brimstone, AASM or Storm Shadow/Scalps? How much time will these deals take?

Even the most optimistic person will not be able to suggest that 6 squadrons of second hand MiG-29s or Mirages will be ready to be inducted by 2014 or even 2015, since they will need suitable upgrades to be even fit to be considered. Our own Mirage upgrade is constrained by some factors to just 10 per year after the technology has been absorbed. So at best you'd get 40-50 Mirages from the Adl'A only starting from 2013 or so at 10 per year..hardly a great solace for the IAF.

And even after spending that much on those, you'll get trivial offsets or technology gains. Apart from which you'll have much higher maintenance requirements with any older bird (and guaranteed higher attrition rates), even if its service life has been extended by another 1000 or 1500 hours (which'll give it another 10-15 years at best). It may seem cost-effective but that option was only feasible as an additional measure to the MRCA- not as a replacement program for the MRCA. Now, you'll spend a great deal on fighters that will not be as capable as the Rafale or Typhoon, which will not be able to carry the newer gen weapons without us paying for integration (and that doesn't happen soon either) and may likely not be able to employ them either..and which will bring no gain to the Indian defence firms technology wise.

The MKI can only be upgraded to what it is being upgraded. There are limits to what can be put on that frame given existing technology. And lets face it- the MKI is not the stealthiest fighter around either. Compared to the Rafale or the Typhoon it's RCS even after being treated with RAM will be far higher. And even those upgrades will not happen any faster than they are currently happening. When they do happen, a substantial portion of our fleet will be grounded, undergoing upgrades which will further reduce our fleet of 4th generation fighters.

And how much more should the IAF spend on the MKIs? They're be around only 10-12 years old on an average when they'll go through the current Super-30 upgrades! By the time they are approaching the fag end of their lives, they'll probably undergo another upgrade as well..all in all, we'd have spent a very substantial amount on them considering that the MKI licence produced in India isn't that cheap either.

Every single suggestion you are making will take its own sweet time, that too if it is even feasible. And till then the IAF will basically have to keep its fingers crossed that the Su-30MKI fleet shouldn't be grounded under any circumstance since most people here are terrified that even the AESA equipped 4th gen MRCA cannot hold its own against PLAAF fighters, so what to say of our Bison fleet or the older MiGs and the earlier Jaguar DARIN Is and IIs ? Which is absurd- they've not overnight become obsolete, not at least in the sub-continental scenario where our western neighbour has just retired A-5 Fantans and still operates some of the oldest Mirages and our eastern neighbour too has their own share of older gen jets..

the AMCA's feasibility study is going to be completed by 2011. Even by optimistic timelines, it won't see first flight till the later part of this decade (PS Subra states 2020 as the goal) and induction won't happen till 2025. So while I'm all for backing it to the hilt and roping in the MRCA winner as a partner, I'm not at all for scrapping this deal. It is just not practical and will leave the IAF far too vulnerable for the rest of this decade.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby GeorgeWelch » 05 Nov 2011 03:45

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20111105/main3.htm

Sources said the two bidders — European Consortium’s Eurofighter Typoon and French firm Dasssault’s Rafale — are running neck and neck in the race for the multi-billion dollar deal.

The cost difference between the two companies is ‘marginal’ when seen in the context of the overall cost of the tender that is more than Rs 42,000 crore. Also, on broad parameters like per unit cost, engine costs, maintenance costs and operating costs, there isn’t much difference between the two.

. . .

The ministry will now start calculating the Life Cycle Cost (LCC) of the two aircraft, which is to be operated for 40 years or 6,000 hours


LCCs are always fun because you can come up with any number you want. Let's say one requires slightly more maintenance hours per flight hour but uses slightly less fuel. Assumptions you make about wage and fuel costs 30 years in the future can have big impacts on the numbers calculated.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 05 Nov 2011 03:51

No Manmohan, Sarkozy meet at G-20 fuels bid speculation

A bilateral meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in Cannes on the sidelines of the G-20 summit could not take place on Friday thereby leading to speculation that France has lost the race for the `48,000 crore MMRCA deal.

The two leaders were expected to meet at about 10 am (IST) and the meeting was rescheduled for 1 pm. However, the time was again was changed to 4.00 pm and finally the two leaders could not meet.  While this scheduling and rescheduling was going on in France, the defence ministry opened the bids for the MMRCA at about 3.00 p.m. in New Delhi.  Rafale(France) and Eurofighter(consortium of UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) are the two contenders for the mega deal and their unit prices were announced by the defence ministry in the presence of the representatives of the two competitors.

While the defence ministry and two contenders refrained to talk to media about the price issue, the stakeholders informed their respective governments about the proceedings of the bid opening meeting, sources said.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby RoyG » 05 Nov 2011 03:56

^^So b/c of rescheduling the two leaders could not meet and all of a sudden Rafale is out? okkkk....

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Nick_S » 05 Nov 2011 03:57

Fingers crossed, the best jet wins - Eurofighter.

Hopefully, one day we will see an IAF EF carrying 4 Meteor's, 2 Iris-T, 4 1000 lb LGB, 2 1000l fuel tanks and 1 LDP. Also, on the wing tips will be two towed radar decoys (like the Brit Typhoons).

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20029 » 05 Nov 2011 04:20

I think the JSF would be a good choice, I just hope that the MoD thinks so too...


why?
let's just say that American planes are more upgrade-friendly.
Plus, if a bunch of countries ARE buying the JSF, then the IAF may not even need to buy parts directly from the US!

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby sukhish » 05 Nov 2011 04:43

I think EU guys are gonna get this deal. I had something in me telling me all these months that it will go to EF. Also it will have very big domino effect. Lot's of countries are looking as to what india will select. if India doesn't buy the french, rafale will not fetch any customer, even UAE will also not buy it. politically it will be a very good deal for india. India will also develop some leverage on italy and spain and will help is securing the UNSC seat.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby mallikarjun » 05 Nov 2011 04:58

Manmohan And Sarcozy meet cancelled!!!
let me guess why, I think India expected much lowered bid from France at the tender. France playing hardball with its proven history of siding India. Eurofighter bid may be low enough to excite India but not good enough for Strategic considarations. I think more than the numbers, it will boil down to who is most reliable in time of crisis.
Just my two paise
Mallik

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 05 Nov 2011 05:13

Image

Good evening all, Tay.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Nick_S » 05 Nov 2011 05:42

Comparing production build quality, one can clearly see that the Eurofighter has a better quality fit & finish.

Eurofighter-
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rdXSxzttXwU/T ... _of_59.jpg

Rafale -
http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/luc ... of_108.jpg

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby svinayak » 05 Nov 2011 05:43

That is a used Raffy which has shown its capability

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Nick_S » 05 Nov 2011 05:48

Not talking about the dirt but about the build quality.

You can even see the putty in-between parts in this Rafale pic:

http://fanakit.free.fr/Rafale_M/JPEG/ra ... large.html

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Pranay » 05 Nov 2011 06:16

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 613429.cms

Now, battle-lines for the Europe versus France contest, after elimination of US and Russia in earlier rounds, have been clearly drawn. India on Friday opened the financial bids of the two fighters left in the fray for the world's biggest combat aircraft deal, but promptly declared it would take at least two-three weeks to declare the eventual winner since tons of data had to be computed.

For all its promises of "full transparency" in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract to acquire 126 fighters, likely to be the single biggest defence deal in the run-up to the 2014 polls with its overall value set to exceed $20 billion, the defence ministry refused to say anything concrete.

Sources, however, said the "unit flyaway cost" or "direct acquisition cost" of each Eurofighter Typhoon was "higher" than the French Rafale fighter, both of which fall in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots.

But the unit flyaway cost will not be the only factor to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). The MoD will also take into account "life-cycle costs" or the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying.

Besides, there are costs of the transfer of technology (ToT) since the first 18 jets will be bought from abroad in a flyaway condition, while the rest 108 will be manufactured in India, under licence, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

"The bids were opened today in front of the Indian contract negotiating committee, comprising MoD, IAF, finance, production and quality assurance officials, as well as representatives from French Dassault and EADS (backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy). It will take a few weeks to examine and evaluate their commercial proposals to arrive at a verifiable cost model to determine the L-1," said an official.

IAF wants the actual contract to be inked by January-February to ensure the delivery of first 18 jets begins by early-2015 to stem its fast-eroding combat edge, with HAL beginning the manufacturing of the rest 108 from early-2017 onwards. "The first jet built by HAL should roll out in early-2017," said an official.

India is also likely to go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126, if the timelines for the under-development Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) projects are not met.

Taygibay
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 05 Nov 2011 06:24

Hum, copying someone's posts or double identity?

Sorry for the aparté, guys.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 05 Nov 2011 06:31

Is TVC part of this offer from Ef/Rf?

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Nick_S » 05 Nov 2011 06:36

No, its not.

Though if the customer wants, EF can develop TVC (they already did a lot of work on it but its still going to be expensive and time consuming).

No idea if Dassault worked on TVC.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Taygibay » 05 Nov 2011 07:03

Sadly, on that count, the answer is no.
Advantage Ef.

Good night all, Tay.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Victor » 05 Nov 2011 07:19

Kartik wrote:
This scare mongering is going too far now !

IMO, we don't have the luxury of speculating about how inferior the J-20 will be, how few will be built, how many will be given to the pakis or ranged against us. Given that we are the only real chinese rivals in Asia and they have shown nothing but ill-will towards us, it is prudent to be prepared for the worst as we build a bridge to the FGFA/AMCA which may or may not come. It is irresponsible and foolhardy bravado to dismiss this as "dhoti shivering".

It would be tragic if we tied up a large chunk of our defence aviation industry for the next 30-40 years to yesterday's technology instead of aspiring to the highest standard available to us. The JSF will cost about the same, be far more advanced and arrive in the same time frame as the eurocanards. The Pentagon acknowledges our need to upgrade our manufacturing capabilities and is ready to make us a co-developer. What's wrong with this picture?

More importantly, Europe is in serious financial trouble and even the most optimistic observers don't see a turnaround anywhere on the horizon. To expect them to spend non-existant money on costly future development of a plane they don't even need is an extremely naive leap of faith on our part. In fact, this by itself is our best excuse to exit the deal and still maintain whatever "credibilty" we fancy our defence procurement process to have.

In the meantime, it is clear that the IAF is not worried about *immediate* force levels. In stark contrast to the quick purchases of the C-17, C-130 and Apache, the leisurely MMRCA competition and M2k upgrades send the message "whatever we have is enough to take care of you for now".

It looks like the Japanese will choose the JSF and keep their domestic fighter projects going in parallel. We should do the same.

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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Prem » 05 Nov 2011 07:56

I was under the impression French offered to lease or loan 40 Rafales to India .In case French wins the deal, should India be not receiving these 40 for training purpose right away instead of waiting til 2014-2015?


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