India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 27 Dec 2011 22:34

Laugh it off if you will.. Taiwan to looking to retire its relatively new Mirage 2000s early. UAE and Qatar too were looking at turning their Mirages in. Look at how long the RAF operated its upgraded Jaguars, Sea Harriers and Harrier IIs before retirement. There's nothing wrong with a good 12 years of service after upgrades, when the AF in question is sorely in need of aircraft. Especially given that the aircraft itself is a whopping 40 years old.


Not quite so...For Taïwan it is wrong. Air Chief said the mirage 2000-5 will be their main air superiority for still quite a long time. Quatar wants to wind down its air defense and as for UAE it is only linked to a possible rafale sell.

Many countries are still flying the mirage 3 and mirage F1 so for the mirage 2000 I have no worry at all...

You're taking X is a positive number, and arbitrarily translating that to X>Y. Did BAE react negatively and slowly to the Indian Air Force's requests?


Proving yourself during a war time is of a lot of value. Usually you heare more positive comments on the indian mirage fleet than on BAE aircrafts. Look at the Kargil war... Mirage 2000 has more appeal than any BAE aircrafts in IAF inventory very clearly. And for your record a Jaguar is 50% Dassault.

Umm... and then their MoD ended up ordering the Gripen, so how did it help?

Have you ever heard of the technical evaluation ? Should I repost all the articles and chart stating that the rafale outdid both the Typhoon and the Gripen ?

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 27 Dec 2011 23:59

arthuro wrote:Typhoon orders :

You are mistaken because India will not manufacture the typhoon from scratch after the 18th airframe. It will be very progressive. So yes Typhoon partners will cut their orders.


So the EF members will count a few kit deliveries and component orders towards their total commitments? Well again that's their business. How is an Indian order with Indian money for the Indian Air Force built in India taking away jobs that were created to deliver aircraft to Germany, UK, Spain and Italy?

You're implying that the EF manufacturers will assume that the Indian order is to be built in Europe, which will create hypothetical jobs and when India stuns them all by sticking to its intention of building the aircraft domestically, those imaginary jobs will dissolve and India will be accused of stealing away employment.

There is nothing strange to that. Latribune journalist has his own sources withing the industry and made an interview. If it was from an obscure website ok you could call into question the credibility of this article but from Latribune it is another story. They can be very harsh toward Dassault when needed like for the missed UAE dealed when they accused dassault of being arrogant. I believe thay have reported this formaly without bias.


Not strange no, curious perhaps, that only and only La Tribune was privy to this information? Surely someone somewhere in the vast media world would have heard of this huge news and would have wanted to bring this to the attention of the British, German, Italian and Spanish taxpayers not to mention all the investors in EADS and BAE who're apparently being taken for a ride. Surely someone besides La Tribune would have heard about these 'monstrous' sacrifices (what does that mean by the way... are they selling it at a loss?).

Now you can interprete this industry declaration as you want : a sign of confindence or a sign of weakness.


Umm... is it possible that the source of the article was someone in the .... French industry, perhaps someone who's opinion is that the EF offer was 'monstrously sacrificial', but without actually being a part of the EF team that created and submitted the financial bid.


Not quite so...For Taïwan it is wrong. Air Chief said the mirage 2000-5 will be their main air superiority for still quite a long time. Quatar wants to wind down its air defense and as for UAE it is only linked to a possible rafale sell.

Many countries are still flying the mirage 3 and mirage F1 so for the mirage 2000 I have no worry at all...


France is still retiring its Mirages built during that time. Point was that retiring a 40 year old fighter scarcely means airframe life is being wasted. And there are plenty of examples of aircraft being retired within 12 years of an upgrade, from Harriers and F-18s, to even the projected retirement of the IAF's Bisons.


Proving yourself during a war time is of a lot of value. Usually you heare more positive comments on the indian mirage fleet than on BAE aircrafts. Look at the Kargil war... Mirage 2000 has more appeal than any BAE aircrafts in IAF inventory very clearly. And for your record a Jaguar is 50% Dassault.


We were talking about the companies BAE and Dassault not comparing the Mirage 2000 and Jaguar. During the Kargil war the Mirages had already been upgraded with the Litening and Paveways while the Jaguar upgrade while sanctioned was still being implemented (in addition the aircraft itself was optimized for low level strike), so its inevitable that the most photogenic events in the IAF's campaign were carried out by the Mirage 2000. That doesn't imply that the IAF is dissatisfied with the Jaguar. And more importantly that doesn't imply that Dassault has somehow forged better ties with the IAF let alone the Ministry of Defence than BAE.

The Jaguar was co-developed with Dassault, but it was sold to India by the British government, supported and re-engined by British Aerospace Ltd. (which also setup the production line) with the initial pilot training carried out by the RAF. As far as the Indian MoD is concerned it was a measure of BAE's participation in the Indian market.

Have you ever heard of the technical evaluation ? Should I repost all the articles and chart stating that the rafale outdid both the Typhoon and the Gripen ?


I believe we were talking about the influence exercised by the (Swiss) pilots. Which is interesting as the final (unfavorable) call was made by the the Swiss govt, just as the final call on the MRCA would be made by the Indian MoD (which includes substantial HAL influence). Bottom line is that the IAF ordered far more Jaguars than it did Mirages (and has proportionally higher number of Jag pilots including the COAS), while HAL has license built a considerable number of BAE aircraft but no Dassault aircraft.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 28 Dec 2011 03:36

Viv S wrote:Bottom line is that the IAF ordered far more Jaguars than it did Mirages (and has proportionally higher number of Jag pilots including the COAS), while HAL has license built a considerable number of BAE aircraft but no Dassault aircraft.

Very interesting point.!

Bishwa
BRFite
Posts: 306
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Bishwa » 28 Dec 2011 06:35

Regarding the reliability of the British firms

I understand that HAL/IAF had problems with the Hawk productization and were unhappy at one time?
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/07/ba ... o-buy.html

I also understand that Marut hit problems since the British asked for a big price for the engine it was designed for ?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircr ... ar-25.html

I also understand the Jaguar re-engine hit issues with the British recently?
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/02/ia ... um=twitter

Even the initial Jaguar purchase had to wait for a commitment from the British PM that they will never impose sanctions on us ?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircr ... ar-25.html

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 28 Dec 2011 07:47

another problem in early days of Jag deal was the 1st lot came with Adour803 which was found wanting. but our contract had some flaws and I believe we had to pay extra later to get the Adour811...there was a long article in Sunday mag in mid 1980s!

the british are capable but as money minded and cunning as the french..or russians...our MOD legal cell which vets and drafts contracts is apparently a kindergarden class vs the top pvt law firms in india that remain unused; or the intl law firms that defence majors engage on their side. there has a been a suggestion (probably roundly ignored by MOD) to engage top pvt law firms instead to vet the 1000s of pages of the big contracts so we dont get shafted later....as we repeatedly end up in.

would a A1 type lawyer in commercial contracts and arbitration prefer to work in MOD or for the harish salve's, jethmalani's and singhvi's ? these are some of the highest earning self-employed people in india and the principals charge in lakhs per appearance in supreme court.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Viv S » 28 Dec 2011 08:14

Bishwa wrote:Regarding the reliability of the British firms

I understand that HAL/IAF had problems with the Hawk productization and were unhappy at one time?

I also understand that Marut hit problems since the British asked for a big price for the engine it was designed for ?

I also understand the Jaguar re-engine hit issues with the British recently?

Even the initial Jaguar purchase had to wait for a commitment from the British PM that they will never impose sanctions on us ?


Yes to the first, no to the rest.

The Marut engine in question had been cancelled. In was inevitable that an Indian request for continuing development would have to be sponsored with Indian funds. All the same it did end up being powered by a customized Rolls Royce Orpheus 703. Also not everyone agrees about the cost being prohibitive.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arut1.html

The Jaguar re-engine didn't have any issues per se. Rolls Royce concluded that its product didn't meet the IAF's expectations and pulled out of the competition.
Nothing wrong with that, especially since an FMS purchase from Honeywell is likely to be faster.

The delay in Jaguar order was primarily because the RAF and AdA weren't committed to the program at that point. It was eventually ordered within three years of it entering service. And along with the Folland Gnat it was extensively license built in the same industrial model that's being employed for the MRCA. Also offered were 18 aircraft temporarily leased to the IAF as well as a substantial pilot training program - both of which are likely to be among the requests made by the IAF for initial stages of the MRCA induction.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20881
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Philip » 28 Dec 2011 09:49

Viv's point well taken,though technically the Jag was an Anglo-French product (SEPECAT),but with Britain the lead nation,as it will be with the EF.The EF will argue the point that in TOT,tech capabilities,having so many EU partners bringing to the table their combined R&D strength in aerospace and defence tech,not to mention their combined political strength (shall we say at the UN for example?) ,a "band of outlaws" or a "posse" shall we say, which would be eminently preferable to the "lone ranger" France.

I still however feel that the bird which has won on tech grounds has the best chance,as this is the key point on which the deal hinges.If the difference is very,very,close,then the secondary factors swell in importance.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 28 Dec 2011 10:09

there is no #1 or #2 at this stage.. IAF has no power now. all under the mercy of MoD/CCS!

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 14:47

You're implying that the EF manufacturers will assume that the Indian order is to be built in Europe, which will create hypothetical jobs and when India stuns them all by sticking to its intention of building the aircraft domestically, those imaginary jobs will dissolve and India will be accused of stealing away employment.


That’s not what I am saying: if India shall become a full member and manufacture some parts of the typhoon then one the partner will have to make some sacrifices. Till here no problem as it is in the logic of the Indian deal. The issue is how you will share these sacrifices? There could be some tensions among partners and some part of the Indian contract could end at risk. This scenario is hypothetical although plausible, but this was just an example to highlight the higher degree of political uncertainty dealing with a consortium of nations than with a single country : France.

They don’t have the same stance as far as international affairs are concerned (remember UK & Germany for Iraq) so you will have four time more risk to run into trouble than with France. At least with France you know its political stance and over the years it proved to be a reliable partner.

Dealing with one country is also easier for ToT, offsets...Basically everything. Don't forget that if there is a lead negociator you have four shareholders who hold the true power behind ! It is already a mess so I can't imagine with five if india joins !
And those sharolders are not individuals but sovereign countries with changing governments. So if one of the shareholder is not happy anymore at one point all your written contract that you have carefully negociated is irrelevant.

Not strange no, curious perhaps, that only and only La Tribune was privy to this information? Surely someone somewhere in the vast media world would have heard of this huge news and would have wanted to bring this to the attention of the British, German, Italian and Spanish taxpayers not to mention all the investors in EADS and BAE who're apparently being taken for a ride. Surely someone besides La Tribune would have heard about these 'monstrous' sacrifices (what does that mean by the way... are they selling it at a loss?).


It is just a confidence from an industrial close to the contract. What the big news?

Recently an article talked about the MMRCA being decided in early 2012. Why was it not published everywhere in all press? You can find plenty of information that is exclusive to one news paper. A confidence reported does not necessarily need to hit the headlines on the whole planet. The notoriety of La tribune is such that you can be sure that this “confidence” was not merely invented.

This deal is such that countries behind want that deal (almost) at all costs and is it more than the short term profits who are at stake but the viability of a knowhow and an industry. There is nothing shocking that a company can sell with no profit or a loss when a deal is deemed strategic. In my professional life I’ve seen many deals signed with a loss at completion with full knowledge of this situation. Often it was link to a strategic move and viewed as an entry cost on a given market. Here the strategic aspect is to retain high skill engineers and an advanced aeronautic industry.
That’s why I said you can interpret the “confidence” as a sign of weakness for the French if you feel more comfortable. I.e.: Typhoon partner will do whatever they can to win the deal, even selling with no profit or a loss while Dassault could lose because it was too conservative in its pricing. Or you could view it the other way: Typhoon partners have no margin left and will lose on cost of ownership. Actually the interpretation is really opened.


France is still retiring its Mirages built during that time. Point was that retiring a 40 year old fighter scarcely means airframe life is being wasted. And there are plenty of examples of aircraft being retired within 12 years of an upgrade, from Harriers and F-18s, to even the projected retirement of the IAF's Bisons.


France will retire some of its mirage but that has nothing to do with airframe fatigue. France cannot afford acquiring the rafale and modernizing its large mirage 2000 fleet at the same time and as a consequence older mirage are of little operational interest. We are talking here of the mirage 2000C RDI and the Mirage 2000N.

The mirage 2000-5 and 2000 D will remain into service till early 2030’s…And while the 2000D are more recent airframes the 2000-5 are the first operational mirage ever manufactured: they are even older than Indian ones.

And you will not find a 40 million dollar per airframe upgrade plus a dedicated weapon stock that have remained in service for only 10-15 years so your references are just irrelevant. Or it would make the case for rafale even more conspicuous…Just think a second: you are investing in stockpiles of missiles with all the associated know-how, facilities and tactics, you are getting advanced electronics compatible with the rafale for billions and in about 10-15 years everything is to be scraped? You better have the rafale to amortize those costs and beneficiate from the initial investment.

We were talking about the companies BAE and Dassault not comparing the Mirage 2000 and Jaguar. During the Kargil war the Mirages had already been upgraded with the Litening and Paveways while the Jaguar upgrade while sanctioned was still being implemented (in addition the aircraft itself was optimized for low level strike), so its inevitable that the most photogenic events in the IAF's campaign were carried out by the Mirage 2000. That doesn't imply that the IAF is dissatisfied with the Jaguar. And more importantly that doesn't imply that Dassault has somehow forged better ties with the IAF let alone the Ministry of Defence than BAE.


I’ve read plenty of praises on the mirage 2000 fleet in India as well as dassault after sale support and they are even upgrading it heavily with cutting edge avionics for a significant price. Never heard such praises for the Jaguar fleet nor I’ve heard it is getting an upgrade in the magnitude (cost, technology) of the mirage 2000. You may bring the argument of the number but quantity and quality is two different things although some will argue that quantity is a quality of its own.

If india is massively investing in its mirage 2000 fleet must say something about its opinion about the aircraft and its supplier? Especially if they are spending all that money for just 10 to 15 years as you want to believe…The issue is that you are trying to find rapidly whatever ideas to make your point but that often goes against another of your arguments.
The fact that you can find many articles/interviews praising the quality of Dassault after sale support is not innocent…Never read such thing about BAE.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby shukla » 28 Dec 2011 15:18

UK, Italy, Germany, Spain pitch for Eurofighter
Express India

Days before the government is set to finalise the winner of the multi-billion dollar contract to purchase new generation fighters for the Air Force, four heads of governments from the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain have jointly pitched for the Eurofighter in a confidential letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh by lending “political support” to the high-profile commercial contract. The Eurofighter is in a face-off with France’s Rafale for the race to provide 126 fighters to the Air Force, that is grappling with a serious shortage of combat aircraft. A decision on the matter is expected within the next few weeks, with Defence Ministry officials indicating that the winner would be announced by the first week of January.

In a joint “confidential” missive to the Prime Minister sent last week, British PM David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel — along with Italian and Spanish Prime Ministers — have said the EADS’ Eurofighter is an “excellent aircraft that stands on its own merit”. The joint letter has also welcomed India as the “fifth partner country” in jointly developing the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), in the event of Eurofighter being chosen for the contract. The four PMs have also reaffirmed the “security of supply” in the case of Eurofighter Typhoon. This joint letter, sources said, is “unprecedented” since the four countries have lent strategic support to the commercial deal ahead of the final decision. They are pitted against the French government-backed Rafal

kelesis
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011 12:05

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 28 Dec 2011 15:34

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/uk-italy-germany-spain-pitch-for-eurofighter/892756/

Oooo strong lobbying from EF! They probably feel they are losing the deal (remember the Obama letter)...

They think that this story of L1 is a joke and such a tender is necessary lead by political considerations. We know the EF is less capable and more expensive than the Rafale (Swiss and Dutch sources). Political pressure is the only way for the Tyhoon to win the deal.

Regarding offsets and technologies:
France is the leader of the european space industry (more than 60% of Arianespace, the main R&D centers and the only country to be able to build a rocket). It also controls 40% of the executive board of EADS (40% also for Germany). The main R&D centers of Eurocopter, Astrium, and MBDA are under french control. France is also the main customer of EADS, MBDA and Astrium...

Have a look to the board of these companies, they are composed of French guys (often linked to the french gov and public institutions) : MBDA, Astrium, Eurocopter CEOs are french and headquarters are in France (not to mention EADS and Louis Gallois).

Of course we must also mention Dassault, Thales, DCNS, Safran (snecma), Nexter etc... France is also the only european country to be able to build strong nukes on its own. An Indian analyst said a few weeks ago that it was a chance for India to benefit from french nuke experience.

all-in all France is by far the biggest european player in space/defense/nuke industry.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 15:42

indeed, I don't think that a mere letter will change anything. India Said no to the US so they are perfectly ablle to say no to the Typhoon Partners. And Government are changing so what might be true one day can be dismissed the at the next shift of power. With a four nation partnership with diverse foreign political stance you will end up with four more chances of running into trouble. Beside one has to wonder what is left to India when there is already four partner sharing the cake.

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 28 Dec 2011 15:58

well the fact that the Jag can take off from upprepared runways and airfields and has had one of the best safety records in the IAF speaks volumes about its capability. It remains one of the best pilot's aircraft ever made and with the new Honeywell engine would turn into a whole different beast. Mirage has had a good track record in India and will continue to have that. That said, the french upgrade is a total waste. We should have simply gone for the cheaper Israeli upgrade path. Atleast we'd have some commonality interms of Derby being ordered for the LCA mk-1. We could have simply gone for the EL2032 MMR or the Indian version flying on the LCa mk-1. with the same CMDS as the LCA mk-1 and the tarang Mk-2 RWR already on the MKI, Mig-27. RDY3 isn't nearly as good as the EL2032 or the indian version on the LCA MK-1. Derby/Python-5 would have made more sense considering we ordered the Spyder ADS. With more missile orders, we could have gone for local manufacture of atleast the Python-5 which is by far one of the best SR A2A missiles out there. Ideally Python-5 can go on board the MKI, LCa MK-1/2, Jag, Mig-27 and Mirage. Python-5 should go on board the MRCA winner as well. Going for the french weapons pack is utterly expensive, does not give any added value for the added cost. US/ Israeli counter parts are cheaper and often far more effective allowing for longer stand off ranges and better strike capabilties. Going for an all french weapons pack on MRCA would also jack up the price a lot more.

Speaking of dealing with 'one' country for Rafale is also an illusion that you need to stop selling. Rafale too has parts coming from various other nations including unkil who will still have to provide clearances. Even if we go for rafale we'll end up going for significantly US/ Israeli weapons pack and thus will require us to deal with other countries. So having to deal with a 4 nation consortium and a global supply chain is not a major hurdle.

EF will ideally win and the initial 18 will arrive from the factories in EU, while from the 19th aircraft assembly will begin at HAL. In the meantime the first 18 will undergo user acceptance testing, training and evolution with the weapons acquired being tested in indian conditions. Paveway 1/2/3/4, JDAM/L/ER, SDB, JSOW, SLAM-ER, AAGRM/HARM, Aim-120/Meteor, Python-5 etc, CBU-105/97 sfw, etc will be tested. By then EF in IAF will reach full multirole capability. Even if Rafale wins there is bound to be UAT with the same weapons. IAF is very unlikely to go for an all french weapons pack. So considering which weapons we buy, we'll still have to integrate and test them. So that way EF currently not having its entire A2G envelope expanded and rafale having done so makes no difference to the IAF. Whichever aircraft wins, will still undergo a lot of developmental testing, training and trials during initial deliveries.

EF should be taking this home. Going with France has little added strategic value. We have enough purchases from them to keep them happy. Besides we can count on dassault to screw this up yet again, it would un-natural for them to do so.

That said, Kelesis, we are building our own rockets, we have our own nukes and space ambitions, we will nuke reactors from frenc, US, Russia etc. Ae certainly do not need french help in those areas. EF evaluted by Swiss is not the same as the EF evaluted by IAF, EFis the one which met the most requirements in trials in India. No body cares about the dutch and swiss, they made their choice, dutch will buy JSF and swiss the gripen. no use discussing that anymore.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby koti » 28 Dec 2011 16:11

RamaY wrote:Govt to announce winner for 126-plus combat jets in 2012

dont know whether one should :lol: or :(( looking at the time taken to purchase a single item. Why didn't they show similar delay w.r.t PAKFA? What is this Chidambara Rahasyam?


Pak-FA was not a competition. We did not have any equivalent options.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 16:13

well the fact that the Jag can take off from upprepared runways and airfields and has had one of the best safety records in the IAF speaks volumes about its capability. It remains one of the best pilot's aircraft ever made and with the new Honeywell engine would turn into a whole different beast. Mirage has had a good track record in India and will continue to have that. That said, the french upgrade is a total waste. We should have simply gone for the cheaper Israeli upgrade path. Atleast we'd have some commonality interms of Derby being ordered for the LCA mk-1. We could have simply gone for the EL2032 MMR or the Indian version flying on the LCa mk-1. with the same CMDS as the LCA mk-1 and the tarang Mk-2 RWR already on the MKI, Mig-27. RDY3 isn't nearly as good as the EL2032 or the indian version on the LCA MK-1. Derby/Python-5 would have made more sense considering we ordered the Spyder ADS. With more missile orders, we could have gone for local manufacture of atleast the Python-5 which is by far one of the best SR A2A missiles out there. Ideally Python-5 can go on board the MKI, LCa MK-1/2, Jag, Mig-27 and Mirage. Python-5 should go on board the MRCA winner as well. Going for the french weapons pack is utterly expensive, does not give any added value for the added cost. US/ Israeli counter parts are cheaper and often far more effective allowing for longer stand off ranges and better strike capabilties. Going for an all french weapons pack on MRCA would also jack up the price a lot more.


I'am sure the Jaguar have its own qualities, after all its a 50% Dassault design ! But instead of your opinion I would like to have sources praising it in the manitude of the mirage 2000. That's my point.

You say french weapons are expensive and with no added value, why France is one of the largest weapon seller in the world then ? Why France had such a successful history of developping and selling weapons ? And why India stick with the mirage 2000 upgrade then when it had many other options ? Also why india is buying many french military hardware ? You see a bit of common sense just blow away your usual rabid anti french arguments...

Speaking of dealing with 'one' country for Rafale is also an illusion that you need to stop selling. Rafale too has parts coming from various other nations including unkil who will still have to provide clearances. Even if we go for rafale we'll end up going for significantly US/ Israeli weapons pack and thus will require us to deal with other countries. So having to deal with a 4 nation consortium and a global supply chain is not a major hurdle.


That's completely untrue. The rafale is 100% french unless you think that steel and other material must be extracted in France. There are no sensitive technology under foreign contol, it's 100% ITAR free.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/11/no ... -line.html

Paveway 1/2/3/4, JDAM/L/ER, SDB, JSOW, SLAM-ER, AAGRM/HARM, Aim-120/Meteor, Python-5 etc, CBU-105/97 sfw, etc will be tested. By then EF in IAF will reach full multirole capability. Even if Rafale wins there is bound to be UAT with the same weapons. IAF is very unlikely to go for an all french weapons pack. So considering which weapons we buy, we'll still have to integrate and test them. So that way EF currently not having its entire A2G envelope expanded and rafale having done so makes no difference to the IAF. Whichever aircraft wins, will still undergo a lot of developmental testing, training and trials during initial deliveries.


The rafale has already more US AtG weapon integrated than the Typhoon and as far as weapon mix is concerned at least india will have the choice with the rafale and will not be completely dependent from one source. As far as Typhoon multirole capability is concerned they it is far to be funded let alone being developed which would increase the price for india as it will have to pay what other partner nations are unwilling to do.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12261
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Dec 2011 16:20

shiv wrote:Folks. When is early 2012? Jan? Feb? Mar?


2013

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 28 Dec 2011 17:09

US, Russia and Germany are top 3, France is at 4.

Learn to read, never said anything against the Mirage's track record in IAF, only unhappy about the monumental waste of money with no added value going down the french upgrade path for Mirage, The Israeli package would have been better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry

pure bs arthuro, the dassault claim of independence is pretty much like the saab gripen claim, pure hogwash, here is a list of suppliers to the rafale, lots of US, UK companies supplying critical parts. Besides a Dassault claim of being ITAR free isn't enough, Unkil finally has to sign off and that remains a fact. Even the FSO comes from UK and not France, critical tech on the Spectra comes from US and not from France. We'll see how ITAR free it will be. Its this BS marketing that led them into lossing so many deals in the first place.

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

Although the French offer a less capable fighter
at a higher cost, the Rafale has been the presumptive winner
since the inception of the FX2 competition. While the
technical evaluations of the aircraft should result in a
significant advantage for the Super Hornet, we need to take
steps to erode the French political edge. While a major
element of this will be highlighting Boeing's lower cost,
there are several other measures that can make a case against
the French. The first step will be to remind the Brazilians
that their interest in the Rafale was driven by an assumption
that the United States would not release technology. Since
we have approved release of the relevant technology, we
should ask if Brazil still needs the French as a safety.
Over the last few months, the French sales effort has been
based on a misleading, if not fraudulent, claim that their
plane involves only French content (rendering it free of
meddlesome U.S. export controls). This is not the case. A
DTSA analysis found a high level of U.S. content, including
targeting systems, radar components and safety systems that
will require U.S. licenses. Next steps:
– Although it does not appear that the tech data provided
with the French bid violated ITAR regs, PM/DDTC and DTSA
should continue to monitor French marketing to ensure
Dassault does not skirt ITAR restrictions.
– Ensure the Brazilians are aware that we expect to be
issuing retransfer licenses for U.S.-origin components on the
French plane and have already approved transfer of some
technical data.

http://www.politicaexterna.com/16300...-fx-2-haiti-ir

well apart from the paveway family which US weapons have actually been tested on the raffy, please provide some sources. Besides no matter which ones are integrated, the IAF will still do a lot of testing and evaluation after the first batch arrives. Well i can say it again, AASM has no added value, a simple SDB can be carried in far more numbers and can be deployed out to far longer ranges against a wider vareity of targets including hardened, moving in both impact and burst modes. Mica EM is mid range and just doesnt have the range, MICA-IR could be useful but a longer range BVR easily out performs it. lets see Exo-shit, Stormshadow... mmmm...SLAM-ER (can hit moving targets too) at lower cost, Taurus well too expensive and pretty useless since we cant get the longer range version due to MTCR. Paveways family, JDAM family, the best bomb ever made CBU-105SFW all pretty much better and cheaper than any french counter part.

India buying a lot of french hardware? apart from the scorpene and mirage upgrade what have we bought lately? French arms sales are declining. Raffy no customer yet...awww dont be sad...pray MOD and IAF throw dassault a large bone to carry on. Coz if IAF doesnt well no body did, no body would.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 28 Dec 2011 17:20

the ongoing indo-french projects are
- license production of 1000s of Milan2T by BDL
- maitri SRSAM (not sure if its funded)
- thales EW pkg for all Dhruvs (license made by BEL)
- thales thermal imagers for tanks
- imported seeker for Nag
- Nexter (giat) cannon for Rudra and LCH
- mistral aam for LCH

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 17:21

The issue is that all your sources are wrong so how wan we start a serious discussion ?

-The rafale officially came on top of the Brazilian evaluation as it always did in ecah technical evaluation (second after the F35 in the dutch evaluation). The rafale outdid the Typhoon in every technical evaluation it took part (Korea, Singapore, Dutch, Swiss and Brazilian).

Board wants to hear Saito confirm that FAB prefer Rafale
To the Minister Nelson Jobim, the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) prefer to buy French Rafale fighters to refit the force. The statement was made on Wednesday in the House of Representatives.


Minister Nelson Jobim said in open court in the Foreign Relations Committee that the Air Force commander, Brigadier Juniti Saito, showed a preference for the Rafale, despite its higher cost. "He said that the technical aspects, all three proposals meet, but the Air Force Command believes that the Rafale fighter is what most corresponds to National Defense Strategy, despite the costs," Jobim said, as matter of O Globo.

The statement Jobim contradicts previous information where the French fighter had been considered the worst choice among the three models in contention: the Gripen, the Rafale and F18.

To clarify, the Commission on Science and Technology of the House should invite Brigadier Juniti Saito, commander of the FAB, to explain both the criteria for evaluation of aircraft as the preference of the FAB.


04/05/2010
Jobim says he will send the report about fighters to Lula next week

RIO DE JANEIRO (*******) - After repeated delays, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said on Tuesday it intends to submit next week to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva the technical report on the acquisition of fighter jets to fleet renewal Brazilian Air Force (FAB).
[...]
"I'm finishing this report. It's tricky. I hope to finish next week the phase of the explanatory memorandum to send to the president," Jobim told reporters after participating in a exchange of generals in the Eastern Military Command in Rio de Janeiro.

Jobim acknowledged that the process of choosing the fighters are late. "I've traveled a lot. It's true," added the minister, who believes that the procedure of choice for Lula will take place later in the first half-year.

Recently, Jobim said that the FAB opted for the French fighter jets after a technical analysis of the aircraft.Asked about the choice on Tuesday, the minister evaded. "live life one day at a time" he said


Defense choose the Rafale and final decision will belong to the president
Administratores.com.br, June 23


After so many speculations, the Ministry of the Defense decided to choose the fighter Rafale, of French fabrication, to integrate the Brazilian Air Defense
The fact of the Ministry of the Defense of having opted for the Rafale doesn´t mean that the process is ended or that it will be confirmed by President LulaThere is an election in the near horizon and wouldn´t be any surprise if the decision was left for the next administration.
The choice was technical and in spite of the French airplane to be the most expensive between the three finalists, the government believes to be able to compensate it in the context of the strategic alliance with France.
Embraer also wins, and very much.If the Gripen was elected, Embraer hardly would participate of the project. With the Rafale, it will be leading the process.
The enterprise also involves the development and the commercialization of the freighter KC-390 in the business.
The United States couldn’t, legally, make a deal of purchase of the Super Tucano in exchange for the sale of the F-18, as it was speculated recently.

Jobim asked changes because he does not accept the purchase of a “ready-made” airplane, as he said several times in public audiences carried out in the Congress.
He wants the industrialization of the Defense and the domain of the technology by Brazil.And he believes that it will be possible with the election of the


And go here for many more sources about the Brazilian preference for the rafale :
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5934&start=3120

-The Rafale is 100% ITAR free and without foreign control and your source is wrong on many asspect. Spectra and rafale radar are entirely manufactured in Pessac near Bordeaux for a starter. Basically there is not anything correct with your source. You will need more than just a random fake source...

As for AASM vs SDB :

1) AASM offer more range especially if you look the 125kg bomb version which is closer in weight than the SdB.
2) it is more powerfull as you can fit any standard NATO bomb from 125 to 1000Kg
3) it can be fired over the shoulder allowing to treat time sensitive targets unlike the SdB that will takes minutes to make a hit due to its gliding kit.
4) If you really want the SdB you can integrate it with the rafale. It is not integrated with the Typhoon so that's hardly a disadvantage.
5) Nothing indicates that India will go for the SdB quite the opposite : current competition is the AASM vs An israeli Gliding Bomb. The SdB is not even considered but the AASM is.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ls-352948/
See ? no SdB at all but the AASM is considered!
Last edited by arthuro on 28 Dec 2011 17:52, edited 2 times in total.

saptarishi
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 05 May 2007 01:20
Location: ghaziabad
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby saptarishi » 28 Dec 2011 17:50

Singha wrote:the ongoing indo-french projects are
- license production of 1000s of Milan2T by BDL
- maitri SRSAM (not sure if its funded)
- thales EW pkg for all Dhruvs (license made by BEL)
- thales thermal imagers for tanks
- imported seeker for Nag
- Nexter (giat) cannon for Rudra and LCH
- mistral aam for LCH


saarji u forget scorpene,by far the biggest one :D :D

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 28 Dec 2011 18:54

My source for Rafale being subject to ITAR is the US govt. so ***k the dassault claim, they are known for BS claims which have cost them many a raffy deals. Their record speaks so clearly about them. JDAM-ER outperforms the AASM any day, with a range of around 60 miles. SDB too have a range of 110 km. AASM is nearly 3 times more expensive and is of little use for Indian threat environment. AASM and Spice are going toe to toe on the Jag deal, but I guess that deal is going no where, since there have been no trials and IAF is just waiting for the MRCA to be signed before going in for any major weapons purchase. SDB will come in the MRCA weapons pack. More and more it is obvious Raffy is inappropriate for India.

Licence production of Milan 2T in this day is kinda ridiculous one of the many army purchasing blunders, its old heavy and hardly provides any battlefield advantage. Spike/ JAvelin are the way forward. Maitri, seems more like a another blunder in the making, nothing has happened for years with this. New Nag seeker is Indian made. Mistral for LCH, they should have simply gone for python-5 on the LCH.

Raffy is out on this one. Apart from higher range and higher payload, there isn't any added value the Raffy provides to India. EF tranche 3+ is the way to go even if it costs us a bit more.

No matter who perfromed well in other competitions, that fact the suppossed superiority of the raffy has't translated into a sale clearly shows, something is wrong with the people selling it. The suppossed superiority doesn't mean jack. For me a Gripen win in Swiss quite clearly says Rafale offer just wasn't good enough and gripen offer/aircraft is better for the swiss condition. For me a SK rejection of the raffy clearly shows F-15K was the better offer/ aircraft. The same way the Dutch choice of F-35 shows that they just weren't happy with anything else. Same way EF will win in India because Raffy offer/aircraft just won't as good as the EF offer/aircraft.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 19:04

My source for Rafale being subject to ITAR is the US govt. so ***k the dassault claim, they are known for BS claims which have cost them many a raffy deals. Their record speaks so clearly about them. JDAM-ER outperforms the AASM any day, with a range of around 60 miles. SDB too have a range of 110 km. AASM is nearly 3 times more expensive and is of little use for Indian threat environment. AASM and Spice are going toe to toe on the Jag deal, but I guess that deal is going no where, since there have been no trials and IAF is just waiting for the MRCA to be signed before going in for any major weapons purchase. SDB will come in the MRCA weapons pack. More and more it is obvious Raffy is inappropriate for India.


Childish rant....Sorry but your source is not correct at all. Your source is US government ? Ah ah ah !
As for the rest of course in your example SdBs and JDAM-ER are fired in ideal conditions : High altitude and at supersonic speeds while AASM are fired at subsonic speeds and medium altitude. In real operational life situation the AASM thanks to its booster will outrange both the SdB and JDAM-ER with a very comfortable marging....


Septimus said :
For me a SK rejection of the raffy clearly shows F-15K was the better offer/ aircraft.

Are you ready for a ride ?
The Rafale took the lead (built by French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation) by a narrow margin in the first stage of the assessment, but considering interoperability and the alliance between Korea and the U.S., we have finally chosen the F-15K (built by the American company Boeing).”


"Dassault's combat aircraft Rafale was rated as "excellent" in all five categories, while its strongest rival, Boeing's F-15 fighter, reached the standard in only two categories.
The Boeing fighter received "excellent" in reliability and supportive combat capability, while Eurofighter, produced by a European consortium, won the top grades in the general function and reliability categories.

In the categories of weapons and electronic warfare capability, only Rafale earned the "excellent" grade, according to the officials.

Russia's Su-35 took fourth place with "ordinary" rates in all five categories.


Korea to Buy 20 Foreign Fighter Jets Next Year

(Source: Korea Overseas Information Service; dated Jan. 18, web-posted Jan. 17, 2007)

Having ordered 40 Boeing F-15Ks, South Korea has now confirmed plans to order 20 new multi-rôle fighters in 2008. Korea has decided to choose a foreign contractor through open bidding to supply 20 "next-generation" fighter jets in the coming years, a project to cost around 2.3 trillion won ($2.4 billion), defense officials said Wednesday (Jan. 17).

The project follows Seoul's contract with the U.S. company Boeing Co. in 2002 to buy 40 F-15K jets for $4.6 billion. Eighteen jets have been delivered so far, with the remainder to be introduced by next year.

"We plan to draw up a detailed plan for the procurement project next month and distribute the proposal in March, with the aim of signing a contract by February next year," said Major General Kim Deuk-hwan, director-general for aircraft programs at the Defense Acquisition Program Administration.

The decision was made at a defense procurement project committee meeting presided over by Defense Minister Kim Jang-soo at the Defense Ministry building in central Seoul.

Korea has pushed for the purchase of 120 next-generation fighter jets as part of its blueprint for overhauling the military's structure and drastically increasing combat capability by 2020.

"It is a plan to secure 20 highly efficient multipurpose fighter jets to actively counter threats by neighboring countries under the National Defense Reform 2020 project," Kim said. "We will introduce the aircraft between 2010 and 2012."

He indicated that Lockheed Martin's F-35 model will be ruled out, saying the Air Force needs double-engine fighters.

"There are a lot of differences between the single-engine F-35 and what our military needs, including weapons capacity and flight scope," Kim said.

Korean officials expect the introduction of a foreign model to help the country learn the core technology needed for the designing and manufacturing of advanced aircraft, as well as contributing to the development of the domestic aerospace industry and the creation of jobs.

In 2002, Seoul chose Boeing's F-15K, probably in consideration of the long-standing military alliance with the United States, giving a new lifeline to Boeing's then-sputtering F-15 production line in Missouri. The French-built fighter Rafale reportedly beat the F-15K by a narrow margin in the technical phase of evaluation. Two other fighters, the Russian Sukhoi Su-35 and the Typhoon from European consortium Eurofighter, also joined in the competition.
as for maneuverability the rafale is superior in most of the flight envelop.


DATE : 20/03/07
SOURCE : Flight International

Typhoon to battle F-15K in Seoul
By Siva Govindasamy

Boeing and Eurofighter go head-to-head again for 20-aircraft deal, as Dassault and Sukhoi withdraw interest.

Boeing's F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon are to contest the $2.4 billion next phase of South Korea's F-X fighter contest, with potential rivals Dassault and Sukhoi having decided against entering the second round of bidding.

Officials from Boeing and the Euro¬fighter consortium at¬tended a compulsory presentation conducted by South Korea's Defence Acquisition Programme Administration (DAPA), which spelt out Seoul's requirements for the 20-aircraft deal. Dassault and Sukhoi did not send representatives.

"Dassault said in 2002 that it won't take part in future South Korean competitions, and it appears to be keeping to its word. Sukhoi probably realised that it had little chance as well," says a Seoul-based industry source. "The Koreans will be relieved that Eurofighter is still keen as they want a competition, as opposed to awarding a single-source contract."

The new requirement is being opened up to competition even though Boeing won a contract to supply the South Korean air force with 40 F-15Ks in 2002, plus 40 options. The F-15 was chosen over the Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Sukhoi Su-35, although the Rafale came out on top in the evaluation.

The decision hardened perceptions that South Korea is biased towards procuring US military hardware, and prompted Seoul to launch an open bid for the second phase of its contest. However, in a possible indication of its platform preference, the DAPA's K-X requirement calls for the acquisition of an "F-15 class" aircraft.
Eurofighter's confidence is based on its sales record and the fact that the aircraft has now proven its capabilities, says the industry source. Around 100 are now operational with launch users Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK, and deals to export a further 90 to Austria and Saudi Arabia are progressing. "It [Eurofighter] is determined to break into the Asian market, and the fact that it had more representatives at the meeting than any other company shows how seriously it is taking this," the source notes.

Boeing and Eurofighter must submit their proposals for the K-X deal by 18 April, with a contract to be signed around February 2008 and deliveries to occur in the 2010-12 timeframe.


All the rest of your rant is the same : clueless and driven by a strong anti-french bias.

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Postby member_20453 » 28 Dec 2011 19:42

yes DTSA analysis was done in the US and they clearly claim Rafale isn't ITAR free, tough Dassault hasn't violated any ITAR laws, Raffy is still ITAR dependent. Clearance for export and tot will be required from the US as well. like I said, I hardly give ***k about what they have to say, raffy still lost in all previous competition, whether they lost for mile or an inch losing is still losing. Quit whining like a sore looser. All loosers finds ways to defend their loss. Dassult has been doing exactly the same. The plane is gr8 for all I care, its the people selling it that are unworthy of selling a good aircraft. Get rid of the people and the government behind it and the plane will sell itself. Considering that the EF can supercruise with a considerable load of SDB or JDAM, there is no reason why these weapons can't be launched at high altitude and supercrusing speeds. Supersonic releases do result in some devastating effects on targets. Many SDB can be launched at ranges over 100km while AASM has a max range of 80 km with the booster. Still a range advantage at a far lower cost. Furthermore, A single EF can carry over 16 SDB besides carrying A2A weapons. They can also hit hardened targets.

To consider that the Rafale only beat the F-15K by narrow margin is shamefully, the F-15 is a 1970s aircraft.

http://www.ainonline.com/?q=aviation-ne ... ng-targets

Raffy is a good aircraft, hell, with a US weapons pack, it will gr8, no doubt. The problem is the company and the back end.
Last edited by member_20453 on 28 Dec 2011 19:44, edited 1 time in total.

trushant
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 29
Joined: 06 Jan 2009 18:02

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby trushant » 28 Dec 2011 19:44

SaiK wrote:there is no #1 or #2 at this stage.. IAF has no power now. all under the mercy of MoD/CCS!


+ 1

Once the two a/c s are declared as compliant with the performance parameters of IAF, T1 and T2 has no meaning

As per the news item in DNA (and quoted on this forum) ...the decision in unlikely by 31st ... so it would be Jan 2012...ofcourse offer validity would/must be extended by atleast 3 months for the negotiations to complete.

I have a query ... If CCS is the ultimate authority as per the Clause 73 in DPP 2011 in case of purchases with strategic value (which is THE CASE in this deal) then would the MoD declare the L1 just like that in Jan and get on with the further negotiations or wait for the CCS meeting for declaring the selected vendor (which might be L2 as per the comparative?) Am I missing something here?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Singha » 28 Dec 2011 19:50

Septimus - do you know what components of Rafale are under US export controls?

afaik there were some US components in the BAE Hawk we purchased as well, but India asked BAE to replace them with non-US parts and they did. even in our P8I I believe the sonobuoys have been sourced from a non-US vendor to work around some US law that prohibits their export...

why would the US deny permission, seeing as how they are making a ton of $$ on C130 and C17 with more surely to come in addl orders , Apache, Ch47 , javelin etc and they were offering the same or better goodies on F-18 nd F-16? imo they would be glad to make some $$ on such a large deal albeit as a side dish and be eager to push their JDAM, CBU, SDB2 and other kit to be integrated citing cheaper cost.

to me it seems certain avionics, FCS and weapon components might be sourced from US cos or US subsidiaries of eurocos...but not some dealbreaking item like the entire rbe2-aa or m88-4
Last edited by Singha on 28 Dec 2011 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 19:52

yes DTSA analysis was done in the US and they clearly claim Rafale isn't ITAR free, tough Dassault hasn't violated any ITAR laws, Raffy is still ITAR dependent. Clearance for export and tot will be required from the US as well. like i said, i hardly give ***k about what they have to say, raffy still lost in all previous competition, whether they lost for mile or an inch mosing is still losing. Quit whining like a sore looser. All loosers finds ways to defend their loss. Dassult has been doing exactly the same. The plane is gr8 for all I care, its the people selling it that are unworthy of selling a good aircraft. Get rid of the people and the government behind it and the plane will sell itself. Considering that the EF can supercruise with a considerable load of SDB or JDAM, there is no reason why these weapons can't be launched at high altitude and supercrusing speeds. Supersonic releases do result in some devastating effects on targets. Many SDB can be launched at ranges over 100km while AASM has a max range of 80 km with the booster. Still a range advantage at a far lower cost. Furthermore, A single EF can carry over 16 SDB besides carrying A2A weapons. They can also hit hardened targets.


So it was supposed to be a US government source but now it is merely done in the US ? Not very credible explanation... :lol: Funny that this issue has not been raised by any serious journo and that Dassault keeps marketing that its rafale is not bound with any foreign control...But of course in your fantasy world they are just a bunch of liar like all those evil french.

The Rafale has the advantage of being logistically and operationally similar to the Mirage 2000, which the IAF already operates and used with great success during the Kargil War (see Operation Safed Sagar). This would require fewer changes in the existing infrastructure of the IAF, which in turn will reduce cost. Moreover, being 100% French also provided Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the issue of technology transfer.[23] Dassault claims that the Rafale has an advantage over many of the competitors because it is not subject to ITAR restrictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition

Image

You say that typhoon can supercruise with a "considerable" load of SdB or JDAM ? You did not have a lot of credibility but know it starts to be embarassing. I will not even argue on the rest as it is clear that now your arguments have gone beyhond any sense of rationnality and your rampant anti french motive will not allow to have any sensible discussion with you.

Jaybhatt
BRFite
Posts: 172
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Jaybhatt » 28 Dec 2011 20:30

I am writing on an issue that must have also struck other contributors to this panel. I am referring to the nature of the posts of Septimus S, specifically the language that he uses and the vituperative nature of most of his posts.

He is nothing short of a gutter language afficionado. His frequent use of expletives is barely disguised by liberal splashings of dots and crosses. What is really insufferable is his anti - French bias that he makes no effort to disguise.

Surely, the BR moderators should step in and stop this misuse of the BR site by a person who has a definite personal agenda. If he is a Limey or a Kraut, he should be told to take his anti - French crusade to some other place in his own little island / country. India is not the place to air his obnoxious and xenophobic outbursts, and that too in an Indian defence affairs forum. If he is an Indian agent of EF, that, too, is no excuse for his lamentable behaviour.

The whole scenario reeks of irregularity - the fellow joins in November 2011 and writes as many as 66 posts on this Rafale - Typhoon topic, almost all of them crudely plugging the Typhoon. Not kosher at all.

BR Moderators / Site Officials - surely, you cannot let this continue.

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 28 Dec 2011 20:50

I for one did not claim US will not allow permission, I merely stating that they claim some critical parts do come from the US and will require clearances. The DTSA analysis claims sensi radar components, safety systems and targeting systems coming from the US and voila the same things being listed as being supplied by US vendors in the airframer list I provide.

I have provided a decent source listing the parts supplied from various vendors including parts coming from the US vendors. For dassault to claim pure 100% independence is the same as the gripen marketing bs. Even the above marketing poster seems bs, they don't make the aircraft nose to tail, the ejection seat is british...according to airframer which is reliable source, lots of parts including sensi parts for Spectra come ffrom the US. EF too has many US made parts atleast they do not go around lying about 100% independence. According to airframer even the OSF comes from UK, so much for the Rafale's 100% in dependence. Give me another source with a list of suppliers and we will see if Raffy is as independent as Dassault and arthuro claim it to be.

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

Materials / Adhesives

STRUCTIL Adhesives: Bonding primers, paste adhesive, structural adhesive films, intumescent films, surfacing films

Materials / Composites

Hexcel Composites: Carbon Fibre: Carbon fibers, structural adhesives, honeycombs, prepregs, sandwich panels and reinforcement fabrics

Magnolia Plastics, Inc. : Syntactic Composites: Adhesives, coatings and syntactics

Materials / Lubricants

Orelube Corporation: Synthetic Lubricants: Boelube

Components / Bearings

Rexnord Industries, LLC: Bearings: Seals & bearings

Components / Electrical Components

Labinal: Wire Harnesses: Electrical wiring systems

Components / Electrical/Electronic Connectors

HiRel Connectors, Inc. : Electrical & Electronic Connectors: Connectors, removal crimp and hermetic solder contacts

Components / Fasteners

Ateliers De La Hte. Garonne Solid Rivets: Aeronautical rivets; Bolts: Aeronautical bolts; Screws: Aeronautical screws

Avibank Mfg. Inc. Fasteners: Pins, bolts, fasteners & accessories

Ho-Ho-Kus, Inc. Fasteners: Clamps and fasteners, nuts, bolts & screws

Components / Mechanical Components

Rexnord Cartriseal Mechanical Seals: Contacting & non-contacting face and circumferential seals

Components / Sensors, Transducers & Detectors

Goodrich Sensors & Integrated Systems Sensors/Transducers: Pitot probe; ice detectors; air data total air temperature sensors

Sagem Défense Sécurité Sensors/Transducers: Redundant sensors for fly-by-wire systems

Components / Structural Components

Precimecan - Caromar Group: Precision Machined Parts: Landing gear & structural parts

TITAL GmbH: Metal & Alloy Castings: Aluminium & titanium investment castings

Airframe Systems / Airframe Assemblies

Aircelle: Radomes: Radome structures

Saint-Gobain Sully: Transparent Canopies: Blister windscreen/canopy, gold coated to reduce radar reflection

Airframe Systems / Crew Seating

Martin Baker Aircraft Co. Ltd.: Ejector Seats: Mk.16 F16F zero/zero ejection seat

Airframe Systems / Environmental Systems

Liebherr-Aerospace SAS: Cabin Pressure Control Systems:

Technofan: Air Conditioning Equipment: Valves & fans; cockpit air conditioning system

Airframe Systems / Fluid Power

Eaton Aerospace, Fluid Conveyance Division: Fluid Conveyance Systems: Pumps, valves, level sensors, pressure switches, refuel/defuel manifolds, and couplings

Airframe Systems / Landing Assemblies

Messier-Bugatti-Dowty Carbon Brakes: ; Brake-by-Wire Systems:

Messier-Dowty Aircraft Landing Gear: Main landing gear & nose landing gear

Airframe Systems / Oxygen Systems & Equipment

Air Liquide Oxygen Generation Systems: OBOGS

Airframe Systems / Safety & Security Systems

Ducommun Technologies, Inc. Warning Systems/Equipment: Master caution and warning assemblies

L'Hotellier Fire Fighting/Detection Systems: Fire detection and extinction

Airframe Systems / Weapons Systems

Thales Airborne Systems Surveillance/Air Defense Radar: RBE-2 active electronically scanned array radar

Thales North America Inc. Electronic Warfare Systems: SPECTRA integrated electronic warfare system operating in electromagnetic, laser and infra-red domains

Avionics / Avionic Components

ECE Control Panels: Cockpit components & control panels

Avionics / Flight and Data Management

Moog Controls (UK): Automatic Flight Control Systems: Primary flight controls

Avionics / Imaging and Visual Systems

Thales Optronics (Bury St Edmunds) Limited: Airborne Reconnaissance Infrared: Front sector optronic system

Avionics / Indicators and Instruments

Sagem Défense Sécurité : Helmet-Mounted Displays (HMD): GERFAUT helmet-mounted display & sight

Avionics / Navigation Aids (Airborne)

Sagem Défense Sécurité: Inertial Components & Systems: SIGMA RL90 ring-laser gyro inertial navigation system (with GPS hybridisation)

Power Systems / Auxiliary Power

Microturbo S.A. Auxiliary Power Units: Rubis 305 APU

Power Systems / Electrical Power Systems

ECE Power Distribution Equipment: Power electrical distribution boxes; power contactors

Power Systems / Engine Components

Aerotech Herman Nelson, Inc. Engine Preheaters: Portable heaters

TITAL GmbH Engine Parts: Titanium components for M88 engine

Power Systems / Engines

SNECMA Moteurs Turbofan Engines: M88-2 engines including low-emissions combustor, single-crystal turbine blades and powder metallurgy disks

Power Systems / Fuel Systems

Donaldson Co. Inc. Aerospace & Defense Fuel Filters:

RUAG Aviation Fuel Tanks & Systems: Under wing fuel tanks

Power Systems / Power Transmission

Hispano Suiza Mechanical Transmissions: Engine power transmissions and hydromechanics

Production / Production Equipment

LASELEC SA Marking Equipment: Cable & wire laser marking equipment

Production / Tools

Le Creneau Industriel Machine Tools: CNC machine tools

Omega Technologies, Inc. Insertion/Removal Tools: Fastener installation & removal tools; hole drilling & preparation tools

Testing / Test Equipment

EADS Test & Services Automated Test Equipment: Automatic test equipment & ground test system


Please arthuro I for one have no need to feel embarassed, Dassault' track record for Raffy is embarassing, the supossedly great aircraft, has no sales yet. why lie about dependence, having parts coming other countries isn't a bad thing and dassault shouldn't claim 100% independence. The aircraft has its own advantages, range and payload for one however, EF has many more advantages being higher altitude cieling, higher top speed, supercruise, tvc, bigger and far better radar, better g-suits, equally good pilot interfaces and far better industrial prospects.

That said, I hardly have anything against the french, I enjoy french wine, women and croissants, I love paris been there many times. I wish I did work for EF consortium or even dassault may be I can do a better job selling the Raffy. I am strongly opinionated. Jai Butt sahab, my personal agenda is entertainment. I have no vested interests in this deal, I assure you, my opinion hardly matters or will hardly have any affect on any one. I hardly think IAF or MOD will base their decision on what I have to say while I have had a far too many glasses of french red wine this afternoon. MOD/IAF will go for what they seem is the right aircraft and I for one always support what the IAF wants. If IAF wants rafale so be it. not every one who comes here is a paid agent sir ji. Even though arthuro seems like paid dassault agent sometimes, I know he too just a Raffy lover. I can understand, she sure is a beauty. Just not the right beauty to woo IAF's heart IMO.

Go EF.

kelesis
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011 12:05

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby kelesis » 28 Dec 2011 20:52

We are building our own rockets, we have our own nukes and space ambitions, [...] Ae certainly do not need french help in those areas.


That's only your own opinion. Some Indian observers and analysts think France can be very helpfull.

EF evaluted by Swiss is not the same as the EF evaluted by IAF


Ok but the Typhoon was also the most expensive aircraft of the Swiss tender. It shows that even with degraded capabilities, the Typhoon is still more expensive than a Rafale with full config.

EFis the one which met the most requirements in trials in India.


Probably not.
Typhoon has always been crushed by Rafale in technical evaluations, that's facts. There is no reason to see a different result in India.

No body cares about the dutch and swiss, they made their choice, dutch will buy JSF and swiss the gripen.


I disagree, you don't care because the results of these tenders are very embarrassing for Typhoon. I have no doubt on the professionalism of Dutch and Swiss armies.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 28 Dec 2011 20:57

Septimus

Having been a salesman, let me tell you one thing. Some of the best technological products have never had the sales they deserved. Just a problem of the marketing stupidity of their companies.

Those products, that sold (which were inferior) was because ot their "awe and shock" marketing.

And if you argue my statement, then the Gnat was the most useless a/c? Hain ji?
Last edited by rajanb on 28 Dec 2011 21:17, edited 1 time in total.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 21:01

Septimus, it is useless to spam this forum with fake source and it makes the thread difficult to read.
Once and for all the rafale does not have any ITAR restriction...That's the whole point of french policy. There is not a single serious source stating otherwise. Besides there are so many mistakes on this list that it is hard to believe it. Sometimes you need to overcome your bias to gain some critical sense.

The most easy example is spectra and rbe2 radar which are manufactured in Thales facility at Pessac, France.
http://www.ainonline.com/?q=aviation-ne ... fale-radar
http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2009/10/e ... fique.html

Thales Systèmes Aéroportés SA
Systèmes aéroportés de mission ; équipements
et systèmes de radars aéroportés, de guerre
électronique et d’électronique de missile
Siège social :
Centre Charles Nungesser
2 avenue Gay Lussac
78990 Elancourt - France
Implantations :
Elancourt, Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines, Brest, Pessac
Chiffre d’affaires 2001 : 984 Me
Effectif à fin 2001 : 5 356 personnes
Participations (liste non exhaustive) :
100 % dans Omega Technologies SA
50 % dans Ericsson Thales AEW Systems (ETAS)


When did you see that Typhoon has TVC or this option is part of the Indian deal ? Your enthusiasm lead you in a lot of unbacked claims and bold statement like the Typhoon can super cruise with a huge load of SdBs or JDAM-ER.

As for aircraft comparisons I prefer the cold assesment of professionals rather than another opinion from an anonymous forumer. And in that regard the rafale has a clear lead.

Boreas
BRFite
Posts: 315
Joined: 23 Jan 2011 11:24

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby Boreas » 28 Dec 2011 21:10

Septimus P. wrote:My source for Rafale being subject to ITAR is the US govt.

u must be knowing about geronimo in april.. (gosh u should have tipped us) :mrgreen:

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 21:16

My source for Rafale being subject to ITAR is the US govt.


His argument was worth its penny :lol:

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 28 Dec 2011 21:20

arthuro wrote:
My source for Rafale being subject to ITAR is the US govt.


His argument was worth its penny :lol:


Ahh. the US Govt. was the source? The same Govt. whose ex-President said he attacked the wrong country: Eyerack :rotfl:

We know that technically the Tiffy == Raffy as per the tender guidelines. May the IAF get the best! Not settle for the ==!

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 28 Dec 2011 21:32

IAF has already chosen the best.. but it had to choose two, and they did their job pretty good with all those 633++ metrics.

GoI/CCS, hope it does not toss and choose the winner nor go by external pressure of geopolitical influences. They go by L2 specifics that applies to ToT and its leverage on improving local economy, industry, jobs, skills, and most importantly strategic independence.

UK+Germany+Spain+Italy means 4 countries to put strategic dependency to let say attack PoK or CoK. Whereas, only France needs to be in parts pipeline, perhaps only for a few years till local setups go full stream into manufacturing, and supplies.

But, if the EADS/Cassadian consortium provides written guarantees on these:
1- no involvement on India's strategic decisions nor influence in any way to prevent us waging war or using weapons against our enemies.
2- no choke on parts route or establishment by physical, financial, strategic, or social based by denial of service etc,.

agreements can be made but, it should have been already in the RFP/hopefully in some form.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby rajanb » 28 Dec 2011 21:40

^^^The RFP would have had the major clauses.

Now the clauses relating to securing what the chosen vendor has agreed to would be inserted.

Wonder what chokes on supplies can be put by the Yanquis in the case of either vendor?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby SaiK » 28 Dec 2011 22:06

raytheon is all eager to supply weapons and other stores for the chosen MMRCA. As unkill is hell bent on signing agreements like CISMOA, EULA, bla blah.. we need to have our own strategic agreements prepared and signed by suppliers. Perhaps hold payments as well, till a minimum strategic relationship/independence levels are achieved.

once raytheon say transfers know-how and established production engineering setup in India, they have no control over how the product is used by India. However, they may have control how the product may be sold by India. The same logic applies for France and Germany.

Believe it or not, France or the consortium is going to make big bucks on these.. and already in profit. Whereas, most of the additional expenses India has set aside is for ToT and gaining strategic and tech independence. I hope, we move out of this screw driver requirements to more functional requirements after this MMRCA saga is over.

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby member_20453 » 28 Dec 2011 22:43

well arthruo, see same old french sources...

the first line from your source...itself makes me laugh...he starts by saying that the french are 5 years ahead of the US in AESA??? Unkil has been tinkering with AESA way before the french could spell AESA in english. Raffy just got its first AESA and the UAE said the detection ranges were shorter than the APG-81 and just not good enough. Raffy has been shown the door out from UAE.

Unkil has had AESA on F-22 and F-18 for many years and has exported them on Block 60 for many years too. not only that the latest SHs fly with V-3+ version of the APG-79. This is reason why I do not like the raffy marketing, not only are they selling bs stories, they are proud of their bs stories. They have little to be proud about.

Atleast my source goes about it in a simple list of vendors. Raffy was never entirely french. Your constant flooding of this forum with article after article about how the Raffy is this god sent aircraft is very boring. Raffy is no doubt a nice aircraft, now if IAF goes for it, i have no complaints. I just dont think it will happen because there is only soo much one can bs, IMO dassault's bs marketing will finally be the nail in coffin for the raffy in India. considering it almost got kicked out even before trails due to piss poor communication in the early stages of the tender.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 23:09

First of all rafale being not entirely french is different from being ITAR dependent. Certainly you can find some "basic" ships from a foreign country but nothing strategic and not easily replaceable. If you think otherwise then prove it...Go find some material supporting that strategic parts of the rafale are manufactured outside france. There must be some press releases about it and their product embarking on the rafale then...I've been closely following the rafale program for years and I never heard about foreign parts that could prevent a rafale export...Quite the opposite as it is one of the big selling point of the rafale. You are just completely wrong on this issue.

Image

As for my articles that I post they are just an answer to your usual rant and show you that you are mistaken.

Besides I am curious to hear you about the Typhoon super cruising with "considerable" load of SdBs and JDAM-ER and that Typhoon is offered with TVC like you claimed... And how do you get your source from the US government...I think the only one bias here is you not Dassault.

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Postby arthuro » 28 Dec 2011 23:23

From Janes :

Image
Image


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 86 guests