Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby SwamyG » 14 Jul 2011 02:55

Shiv, you said the following in the Serial Blasts thread.
shiv wrote:In my view the Kashmir issue will not go away. But Pakistan can be rendered less effective without US aid. We (India) have our balls in a bind. We can only express anger. We cannot actually do anything simply because Pakistan (with its ally the US) has put us in a situation where starting a war benefits the Pakistani army and its non uniformed jihadi allies. We can only gnash our teeth in frustration. The Paki army will claim that "non state actors" cannot be controlled in the absence of funds from the US. So far the US has always paid them. Let's see what happens now.


I agree with you; but can't India indulge in covert operations hitting Pakistani targets around the globe? Pakistan, probably others, will put 2 and 2 together to conclude Indian hand. How is their response going to be any different than what they are doing? Increase the intensity and frequency of terrorist attacks? I am sure it is not as simple as it sounds. India would have to create a non-state actor so that India is not pulled up in UN for any 'alleged' involvement.

Shouldn't America being paying us for not hitting back at Pakistan? I suspect America finally is starting to see the end game with respect to Pakistan; but cannot let it go for the fear of Chinese hold in that region. Perhaps, if China gets entangled in Pakistan, it is good for America. I doubt China will send in thousands of soldiers or civilians to gain a strategic hold. It is a delicate game.

In a tit for tat, covert operations, wouldn't Pakistan cave in first and trigger a conventional or nuclear war?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby anupmisra » 14 Jul 2011 04:18

saip wrote:A letter from my Senator in reply to my complaint about aid to Pakistan: Even though it is in the usual lingo, I am surprised someone in her office took time to reply.


They have aides who write form letters. Write her back with a thank you note and a follow up question. Something like, "What would you do Ma'am, the next time a vote is asked in the Senate to continue or discontinue aid to Pakistan".

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Prem » 14 Jul 2011 04:22

SwamiG,
If Maino were to be Indian then she would have used family relation with Mafia and money from Swiss account to settle score with Sooars/ families visiting Europe . 1% of her bank balance can achieve more than 100% of Indian defence budget .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby saip » 14 Jul 2011 04:30

anupmisra wrote:
saip wrote:A letter from my Senator in reply to my complaint about aid to Pakistan: Even though it is in the usual lingo, I am surprised someone in her office took time to reply.


They have aides who write form letters. Write her back with a thank you note and a follow up question. Something like, "What would you do Ma'am, the next time a vote is asked in the Senate to continue or discontinue aid to Pakistan".


Thanks Anup. Normally I just receive an acknowledgment, but this time they seem to have read what I wrote. That is why I am surprised

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby SSridhar » 14 Jul 2011 04:31

There can be no doubt that last evening's blasts in Mumbai were ordered by Pakistan. What happened to the observation by Ms. Nirupama Rao that Pakistan has changed its policy on terrorism now ? MEA will now have to say that they were non-state Pakistani actors in order to continue with this BS theory of 'Pakistan's altered policy on terrorism'.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby svinayak » 14 Jul 2011 04:52

SSridhar wrote:There can be no doubt that last evening's blasts in Mumbai were ordered by Pakistan. What happened to the observation by Ms. Nirupama Rao that Pakistan has changed its policy on terrorism now ? MEA will now have to say that they were non-state Pakistani actors in order to continue with this BS theory of 'Pakistan's altered policy on terrorism'.

There are many factions in Pak which do not want peace talks to go forward. The hawks also want to add confusion to the Bin Laden insult to Pakistan and the sword arm of Islam the PA.

Then there are other agencies which do want to independent talks between India and Pakistan. This could be factions within the Uncle agencies who want to controll all aspect of Pak policies. It is really a completely controlled client entity. This looks more plausible. Watch the news and radio of the Massaland to find out what kind of questions are being asked and how the discussion is going. They keep refering to mumbai of 2008.

another thing is that the Massaland public is being prepared for creating the right image of the islamic violence in the region so that in the near future they will give full american support to the US military offensive in the region to get this Islamic militant groups who are tormenting the region.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Ambar » 14 Jul 2011 04:56

SS, in this time of hopelessness and desperation we can draw one solace : If the attacks were planned/perpetrated by ISI and co. then we can be confident that the absolutely destruction of TSPA ( either by Unkil, Iran or by their own economic/political death spiral) would ensure a lasting peace in India. It means that TSPA still has an absolute control over most Jamiat ahle-hadith "out looking" jihadis, and that they are useless without a tacit support by TSPA. That's better than splinter groups making there own decisions or using porki sympathizers inside India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby ranjbe » 14 Jul 2011 05:44

While the extent of ISI involvement in the Mumbai blasts may or may be not disclosed over time, a few Pakis know what exactly what Unkil has in store for them.
The Pakistani military leadership has been betting on a US withdrawal from Afghanistan that leaves the field wide open for them. It is an erroneous assumption and will likely result in the Pakistani security establishment biting off more than it can chew

Under the prevailing situation along the Durand Line, with both Pakistan and Afghanistan alleging that the other is violating the frontier, Pakistan would not venture into pulling back a single soldier. More than that, the Pakistan Army officials have declared on record that many of the Taliban-affiliated groups are their strategic assets. A pull-back would mean loss of protection for these assets rendering them to be likely targets for the ISAF, especially if the militants try to escalate things. So who is the Pakistani establishment kidding? Even the lamest bravado has to be tad tangible.


The mood in the US is reflective of an Americanism: “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.” The Obama administration had bad and worse choices vis-à-vis Pakistan to select from. The US government is not known to rush into making decisions and the present one is no different. It appears to be a considered opinion of the US administration and the lawmakers that in the fight against the extremist forces, the Pakistani army and the civilian government cannot be counted on due to lack of will and power, respectively

Dr Mohammad Taqi Op-Ed in
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Karna_A » 14 Jul 2011 06:20

SSridhar wrote:There can be no doubt that last evening's blasts in Mumbai were ordered by Pakistan. What happened to the observation by Ms. Nirupama Rao that Pakistan has changed its policy on terrorism now ? MEA will now have to say that they were non-state Pakistani actors in order to continue with this BS theory of 'Pakistan's altered policy on terrorism'.


TSPA top brass is saving themselves from being Qadrified.
OBL operation and Davis affair made the top brass look like buffoons.

Now this Mumbai blast(JIB) and the Afghan Hotel raid(JIB-West) are ways of showing by TSPA that they still matter.

But this won't be end of it. There is going to be also a high level assasination either in AFG or India with eye as Eye wriiten all over it.

Things are boiling to a decisive point.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Pranav » 14 Jul 2011 07:06

shiv wrote:Why has there been a decrease in the number of terror attacks? The possibilities are
1. Aman ki tamasha is working
2. US is paying Pakistan not to attack
3. Pakistan has had change of heart

I think No 2 above is correct.


These possibilities may be valid, but there are are others. One need not assume that it is necessarily in US interests to prevent Paki non-state actors from attacking India. The 26/11 attack exhibited shades of this phenomenon. The late Syed Saleem Shahzad was exploring such possibilities.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Airavat » 14 Jul 2011 07:19


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 07:33

SwamyG wrote:Shiv, you said the following in the Serial Blasts thread.
shiv wrote:In my view the Kashmir issue will not go away. But Pakistan can be rendered less effective without US aid. We (India) have our balls in a bind. We can only express anger. We cannot actually do anything simply because Pakistan (with its ally the US) has put us in a situation where starting a war benefits the Pakistani army and its non uniformed jihadi allies. We can only gnash our teeth in frustration. The Paki army will claim that "non state actors" cannot be controlled in the absence of funds from the US. So far the US has always paid them. Let's see what happens now.


I agree with you; but can't India indulge in covert operations hitting Pakistani targets around the globe? Pakistan, probably others, will put 2 and 2 together to conclude Indian hand. How is their response going to be any different than what they are doing? Increase the intensity and frequency of terrorist attacks? I am sure it is not as simple as it sounds. India would have to create a non-state actor so that India is not pulled up in UN for any 'alleged' involvement.

Shouldn't America being paying us for not hitting back at Pakistan? I suspect America finally is starting to see the end game with respect to Pakistan; but cannot let it go for the fear of Chinese hold in that region. Perhaps, if China gets entangled in Pakistan, it is good for America. I doubt China will send in thousands of soldiers or civilians to gain a strategic hold. It is a delicate game.

In a tit for tat, covert operations, wouldn't Pakistan cave in first and trigger a conventional or nuclear war?


SwamyG - Pakistan is conducting covert ops against us because they cannot hit us openly. Whatyou (and others) are suggesting is that we should also accept that we cannot deal with Pakistan openly and directly for fear of nuclear war and conduct deniable covert ops so that India is only "suspected".

In my view unless we solve the Pakistan problem - the problem will not go away. Simply conducting covert ops is good, but its a bit like poking pins into a voodoo doll - the actual culprit is not being identified and hit in public.

Look at it in another way. Pakistan has seen a series of serious violent events in the last 2-3 years. Now suppose some Indian leader suddenly "admits" that India is the force behind that violence in Pakistan what effect would it have? If India were really responsible for all that then we jingos would go "Nyah ha ha Pakistan - take that!" If India were not responsible, we would be claiming responsibility and allowing someone else to go scot free and helping that someone stay anonymous.

How would that help anything? We have to hit Pakistan openly and directly, nuclear threat or no nuclear threat. Whether the "hitting" is in the form of war or covert war or just plain hatred - the hitting must not stop. We should not close all options in favor of covert ops only. For Pakistan the whole of India should become a huge Lashkar-e-FukPakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby chetak » 14 Jul 2011 07:40

What has America done for Pakistan?


After the failure of its first five-year plan, Pakistan set up a Planning Commission in 1958. The second five-year plan encouraged private enterprise in areas where profits could be made, and government expenditure in less developed areas. It surpassed its goals and Pakistan became a model of industrial and economic development in what is known as the third world (for example South Korea modeled its capital Seoul after Karachi), mainly due to American input and financial aid.
After 9/11 when Pakistan decided to join the war on terror, the US helped rescheduled loans of more than $12 billion with members of the Paris Club, allowed duty-free import of hundreds of Pakistani products, and gave Pakistan the biggest economic assistance program since the cold war.

The impact of thousands of Pakistani students, researchers and professionals who were sent on scholarships to universities in the US cannot be measured in financial terms.

And in that manner of argument, it might be appropriate in the end to ask a question that has not been asked so far. What has Pakistan done for the US? What has Pakistan done for the US if reliability, trust and selflessness are the benchmarks?

The author is a media and culture critic and a news editor at The Friday Times
.
Last edited by chetak on 14 Jul 2011 07:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby anishns » 14 Jul 2011 07:41

shiv wrote: For Pakistan the whole of India should become a huge Lashkar-e-FukPakistan.


^^^

Inshallah!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby chetak » 14 Jul 2011 07:42

anishns wrote:
shiv wrote: For Pakistan the whole of India should become a huge Lashkar-e-FukPakistan.


^^^

Inshallah!



What do you mean????

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby SSridhar » 14 Jul 2011 08:02

shiv wrote:In my view unless we solve the Pakistan problem - the problem will not go away. . . .We have to hit Pakistan openly and directly, nuclear threat or no nuclear threat. Whether the "hitting" is in the form of war or covert war or just plain hatred - the hitting must not stop. We should not close all options in favor of covert ops only.

Absolutely, Shiv, absolutely. It is well past time for India to declare Pakistan as a terrorism-sponsoring state and take consequent actions. As I have repeatedly said, we must hit Pakistan in every possible way, covert, overt, diplomatic, monetary, political, cultural etc. No option is an exception. Many do not realize the cost inflicted on us due to terrorism by Pakistan. Apart from loss of men & material, there are other implications such as the 'soft state' image; setting up of sleeper cells (IM is nothing but LeT-India) that have the potential to cause long-term damage; the image of a 'dangerous country' among visitors and investors, loss of confidence among Indians themselves etc. These are all TSP's aims too. Terrorism is indeed the single golden tool to implement 'a thousand cuts' because it hits a country in various ways.

TSP is pre-empting even a modicum of tough Indian stand by pretending to have altered its state policy of terrorism. The MEA & GoI are swallowing it hook, line and sinker. My suspicion therefore is that bigger attacks are on the way from Pakistan and TSP is being chankian about that by pulling wool over Ms. Nirupama Rao's eyes.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby SwamyG » 14 Jul 2011 08:04

Shiv:
The end goal is to crumble Pakistan. The secondary benefit would be to let Indians, Pakistanis and World know it was India who crumbled the evil State. However, by waging a covert war, India would surely be letting Pakistani and World establishment of what India did. Just like it is an open secret know of Pakistani involvement in terror strikes, it would become an open secret that India will step and protect itself by using covert assets and operations when necessary. Even the big uncle and aunties of this World do not shirk in performing such operations. If India is not doing, then what is the harm? Definitely we have the reason and capability. It is the political will.

I am not closing the door on overt hits or war. However it is so easy and casual to demand a war that other people are going to fight and die. Same argument for covert wars too - I am not going to be in the dark trenches shivering and waiting and doing the dirty work. It is some one else. Which is better, better in terms of cost of lives and expense? Definitely covert is slower but sustainable for a longer time. However, there is the danger of the non-state actors turning against us or spilling the beans. It is not without risk or disadvantages; but why not carry these when key Pakistani dignitaries are out in the loose? There is no shame, no? Since we are not doing overtly anything, why not do something covertly. Maybe the citizens and politicians might have the stomach to do that.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby shravan » 14 Jul 2011 09:29

Ten killed, over 20 hurt in Karachi

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Prem » 14 Jul 2011 09:30

There is big open market in Poakland selling Soosiders for under 100k a unit. Let few of our Afghan friends tired of terrorist Pokerstein use this possible tool to dismantle and dismemeber this cancereorus entity. 2k Rape families in Poakland can be awarded with Janat by using these "blasting" boys. Make a 5 year plan , using 800 Million a year . This way Poaks cant complain that money was not invested for them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Jul 2011 09:51

chetak wrote:What has America done for Pakistan?


After the failure of its first five-year plan, Pakistan set up a Planning Commission in 1958. The second five-year plan encouraged private enterprise in areas where profits could be made, and government expenditure in less developed areas. It surpassed its goals and Pakistan became a model of industrial and economic development in what is known as the third world (for example South Korea modeled its capital Seoul after Karachi), mainly due to American input and financial aid.


Wasn't this rubbish aldready debunked, one Korean Ambassodor made a Pro Paki comment and Pakjabis start using it as an ego boost left right and Centre

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 09:58

Is it fair to assume that the "peace process" died with ~20 people in Mumbai yesterday?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby SSridhar » 14 Jul 2011 10:01

India-Pakistan: Need for Intelligence Cooperation - A.S.Dulat & Asad Durrani
When countries are faced with common external or internal threats, exchange of mutually beneficial information might not only be thinkable but also desirable, even prudent.{There is absolutely no commonality in threats facing India & Pakistan. I am surprised that a former RAW chief subscribes to such a thought}
Some intra- or extra-regional forces could cause crises that might spin out of control, with possible nuclear consequences. {This is what is called 'Nuclear-Enabled Terrorism. This is the Pakistani line. It serves to intimidate India and make the Indian Subcontinent appear as a 'nuclear flashpoint' to the others so that they rush in to prevent an Indian retaliation after every Pakistani terrorist attack} While the nuclear bogey should not be exaggerated, for these and other reasons it is advisable to establish a preventive mechanism; intelligence cooperation indeed being its lynchpin. Even in the worst days of the Cold War, the CIA and the KGB never ceased contacts, even through open declared officers in each other's capitals.
Similarly, when the Indian security forces were wrapping up Sikh militancy in the Punjab in 1992, Pakistan was duly informed, and perhaps even offered facilities to do ground checks. {Can anybody verify this ? It might be true because the RAW Chief has allowed this to be stated in the joint paper. However, if such a 'cooperation' came at the fag end when the writing was clear on the wall, then it was a case of making a virtue out of a necessity. Pakistan should not be given credit for that. Indeed, this is exactly how Pakistan operates}
It is not very likely that the two antagonists would agree on a common approach to address regional security. Past baggage and divergence in views on how best to resolve, for example the problem of Afghanistan, argue against it. {Afghanistan is a problem only because of Pakistan} They, however, might have a common interest to prevent another incident of the kind which occurred in Mumbai in November 2008 — India for obvious reasons, and Pakistan since it can ill-afford to be distracted from its internal front and the fallout from the war in Afghanistan.{it is this very premise that should be questioned. Pakistan stands to gain in every way by creating tension with India; getting favours & concessions from the US, diverting people's attention, uniting jihadi terrorists most of whom are against the PA, moving troops from the Afghan border etc.}
In case of an incident, it must provide for joint actions, like investigation and interrogation of suspects. Bureaucratic and political reservations are expected; some of them are even legitimate, such as concerns about “sovereignty” and intrusion in sensitive matters. However, if these are not overcome, endless exchange of dossiers, a la post-26/11, is unavoidable.{These are difficult even for close cousins like the US & Britain, leave alone India & Pakistan with enduring enmity. On top of everything else, Pakistan uses every opening to inflict more terrorism on India and hence can never be trusted. I can understand the Pakistani author suggesting all these but not the Indian}


(This is a joint paper by two former heads of intelligence — Amarjeet Singh Dulat of RAW, and Asad Durrani of the ISI — discussed in a Track II setting with current and former policymakers from July 1-4 in Berlin, at the 59th Pugwash Conference on Science and World Affairs. It now appears simultaneously in The News International and The Hindu . )

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby nikhilarora » 14 Jul 2011 10:02

Forgive my temper, but NOTHING as being discussed in this thread is ever going to happen. NO OVERT, COVERT, DIPLOMATIC or WHATEVER steps being asked for is ever going to be taken by any government, it is just not in their interest to do so, they are busy looting the country and that would stop if the govt thinks about the people or takes action against the men responsible. That is why KASAB is still eating GOST BIRIYANI in an Indian jail. I say, after catching a terrorist, he would surely give a plethora of information that no dead one can give (even OBL), he has gone on record to say its FUC*ISTAN AND ISI job. What has GOI done about it, they naver have and never will, such are they, its only important for them to be at the helm of power and nothing else. Has there any kind of challenge to them or even an opposition (not the opposition parties, they are as worthless)? Why do good people always shy away from politics (Infy chairman!!! or Tata!!!). You know what its our fault, we can discuss pages after pages in brf or internet or some other such site, we can't move ourself into action, May I ask how many of use have voted for congress or the like? How many of has have supported corruption by giving bribes to a traffic police and also!! Afew days down the line the investigators will bring evidence again of LET, ISI, FUC*I involvement, we will cry foul, GOI will feed us crap about new NSG hub and such, after a few days, the evidence goes somewhere missing under the huge stockpile of files already in their tables and we get on with our lives thinking we are safe in our homes. Actually we people are used to Inaction, we can't think of any action, its how it has been and will be in our slumber, we always read these news and pray if our family members should be unharmed, thats it, they are safe, lets get back to work, my salary depends on it yaar. In it, we think we are doing a GOOD job, its been in our psyche taught by our parents that we should be good, pure, always be in good's path (Ofcourse corruption is not evil). We say to the world and take pride that we are Gandhains (soft image), we rather fast and make TSP and ISI and all its commies see light, because thats what we have ever done, the world will love us and see us as great. That's where the problem is, we should IMO prepare for the next one and hope and pray that is not in our backyard. :x

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby shiv » 14 Jul 2011 10:12

abhishek_sharma wrote:Is it fair to assume that the "peace process" died with ~20 people in Mumbai yesterday?

What? Sacrifice peace because 20 people died?

More seriously could someone remind me exactly which year partition occurred? was it really 1947? Could have been 2007? I ask because if you look at videos of Pakistan you find hat Pakistan is similar to India right down to the size and shape of pre-fab kerbstones. And the consumer products in shops come with similar brand names and the packaging is identical.

That means that there are thousands of businesses that are making money in India and in Pakistan. Perhaps they manufacture some stuff in Thailand or in India and other components are imported in bulk and packaged in the country of sale. Licenses for sale in India are bought by paying GoI and someone in Pakistan gets paid for doing business there.

These people would lose business if there was no Aman ki Tamasha. If we list the companies that are doing business in both countries and using a common source to supply identical stuff to the two countries you will likely fin that thousands of crores are being made that way and the GoI is making money there - possibly some in the form of scams. Why would anyone want war and animosity? 20 dead is a small number. Ignore them

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Kanson » 14 Jul 2011 10:25

^ True. To borrow a line from the movie CR, India is run by accountants.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 11:15

Mumbai blasts cast shadow on talks with Pak

July is a jinxed month as far as Indo-Pak engagement is concerned. The three serial terror blasts in Mumbai on Wednesday evening have cast a shadow on the forthcoming foreign ministers' talks scheduled for July 26.

India has refrained from pointing any fingers at Pakistan, having learnt from past experiences. Pakistan foreign ministry was among the first to publicly condemn the blasts. A ministry statement said, "President Asif Ali Zardari, prime minister Yousaf Raza Gilani, the government and the people of Pakistan have condemned the blasts in Mumbai and expressed distress on the loss of lives and injuries. The president and PM have expressed their deepest sympathies to the Indian leadership on the loss of lives, injuries and damage to property in Mumbai."

India will not officially apportion blame until there are clear leads from the investigation, sources said. Initial reports pointed to the involvement of Indian Mujahideen (IM), but nothing has been confirmed yet. But terror attacks of this nature always make the going difficult between India and Pakistan, no matter how hard everybody tries to keep things normal.

While being mindful of public opinion, the Indian government will tread very carefully with Pakistan on this issue. India and Pakistan are finally picking up the pieces of a frayed peace process through numerous hiccups. After a complete round of official-level talks on all eight outstanding issues, Indian and Pakistani foreign secretaries met in Islamabad on June 23-24. Newly-appointed foreign minister of Pakistan, Hina Rabbani Khar, is expected to be here for talks with foreign minister S M Krishna.

India's restraint after 26/11 attacks of 2008 could not be guaranteed if another significant terror attack happened in India, which was proved to have originated in Pakistan, and is now a conventional wisdom. India will not take decisions hastily, but the government will have its work cut out. It will have to explain continuing dialogue with Pakistan if any connection can be proven. It will simultaneously have to deliver a tougher message on terror. Most importantly, the Manmohan Singh government will have to explain the incompetence of the homeland security sector since three years after the horrific 26/11 Mumbai is once again the target of a terror attack.

Terrorism analysts point out that even if Pakistan-based groups had had a hand in these attacks, it might be very difficult to trace it back to them like 26/11 was. Whether this means that the plausible deniability gives these groups greater cover in actions in India has to be seen. Which is why all eyes will be on the Indian reaction — both in the public domain and on the security front.

After 26/11, India went through a phase of anger and suspended all talks with Pakistan. It took many false starts for the talks to finally go through. The peace process between the two countries is very fragile at this point, and certainly the Manmohan Singh government will try hard to sustain it. Pakistani leaders have said that India should continue engagement disregarding terrorism since both countries are facing the same menace. Repeatedly, their message has been that India should cut them some slack on the Mumbai attacks because they suffer similar attacks all the time.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby IndraD » 14 Jul 2011 11:18

error.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby SSridhar » 14 Jul 2011 11:32

IndraD wrote:error.

What does this single word mean ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Jul 2011 11:56

Karna_A wrote:
But this won't be end of it. There is going to be also a high level assasination either in AFG or India with eye as Eye wriiten all over it.



shahzad murder
jdey murder
kabul hotel attack
karzai's brother was qadrified last week
this week mumbai blasts

all are ISI responses to unkil putting the heat up
Last edited by Lalmohan on 14 Jul 2011 12:23, edited 1 time in total.

abhishek_sharma
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 11:57

Pakistan's Middle Class Extremists

If economic development aid raised incomes, the thinking went, support for militant groups would diminish.

This logic has taken hold at the highest levels of American policymaking. In 2010, U.S. President Barack Obama argued in favor of sending more development aid to poor countries, because “extremely poor societies” are “optimal breeding grounds for disease, terrorism, and conflict.” The same year, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton concurred, declaring economic development an “integral part of America’s national security policy.”

Yet there is no evidence that economic development changes attitudes toward violent militant groups, or even that it is the poor whose attitudes are problematic. A number of scholars, including Claude Berrebi, Alberto Abadie, and Alan Kreuger and Jitka Malečková, have found that people who join terrorist groups are predominantly from middle-class or wealthy families. Public opinion scholarship, such as that of Najeeb M. Shafiq and Abdulkader Sinno, and Mark Tessler and Michael Robbins, suggests that differences in income and education do not explain variation in support for suicide bombing and other forms of violence. According to Oeindrila Dube and Juan Vargas, job loss appears to correlate with greater violence in Colombia. And Effi Benmelech, Berrebi, and Esteban Klor have found that poor economic conditions enable Palestinian groups to recruit higher-quality operatives. But in another study, Eli Berman explained that regions with higher unemployment in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Philippines are actually less violent. In Iraq, moreover, there is no evidence that large-scale development programs impact violence, although small-scale programs administered with deep knowledge of the local context do. Even then, the mechanisms that link small-scale aid programs to diminished violence remain unknown.

...

The 2009 U.S. Kerry-Lugar-Berman bill, for example, proposed spending $7.5 billion on economic development in Pakistan, with the express aim of “combating militant extremism.” To test the assumption that poor people are more likely to become radicalized, we fielded a 6,000-person, nationally representative survey of Pakistanis in the four provinces of Punjab, Balochistan, Sindh, and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (formerly North-West Frontier Province) in the spring of 2009.

The survey measured attitudes toward four important militant groups: al Qaeda; the Afghan Taliban; the so-called Kashmiri groups, which include Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Hizbul Mujahideen, among others; and sectarian groups such as Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Sipah-e-Sahaba. The survey was much larger than any previous effort and, for the first time, included rural Pakistan. Previous studies had been undermined by low response rates, perhaps because they asked Pakistanis directly about their support for militant groups. Instead, we measured attitudes toward the groups using an indirect questioning technique called an “endorsement” experiment. We presented respondents with a set of four policy issues, including World Health Organization’s administration of polio vaccinations and the redefinition of the Durand Line separating Pakistan from Afghanistan, and asked how much they supported each. Some respondents were told that one of the four militant groups supported the policy. Comparing the support for each policy of those who were told a militant group supported the policy with those who were not gives the measure of support for the group.

The data revealed four findings that undermine common wisdom about support for militancy in Pakistan. First, survey participants were generally negatively inclined toward all four militant organizations. Contrary to some popular accounts, Pakistanis do not have a taste for militants. Moreover, they appear to differentiate between groups in subtle ways. Pakistanis were far more likely to believe that the Kashmiri groups provide public goods -- schools, health clinics, and the like -- than they were to associate other organizations with such positive activities. They were also much more likely to say that the Kashmiri groups are fighting for good things, such as justice and democracy than they were about the others.

Second, Pakistanis living in violent parts of the country, in Khyber- Pakhtunkhwa in particular, strongly disliked these groups. This is likely because they pay a disproportionately high price for militant violence, regardless of their views about the groups’ goals. Those from comparatively peaceful areas do not bear the full costs of militant action.

Third, poor Pakistanis nationwide disliked the militant groups about two times more than middle class Pakistanis, who were mildly positive toward the groups. We suspect that this is because much of Pakistan’s militant violence is concentrated in poorer areas and in the bazaars and mosques where less affluent people sell goods, shop, and pray. In addition to being in more physical danger than the rich, the poor are at more of an economic risk from attacks, and income losses are more consequential for them. Wealthier people often have servants run errands to bazaars, and when they do personal shopping they are likelier to do so in upscale stores in their own neighborhoods, which are safer.

Finally, this dislike is strongest among poor urban residents. The negative relationship between poverty and support for militancy is three times stronger in urban Pakistan than in the country as a whole. This finding reinforces the idea that the dislike of the groups is driven by greater exposure to their attacks, which are concentrated in urban areas.

Overall, the findings suggest that arguments tying support for militancy to individuals’ socioeconomic status -- and the policy recommendations that often flow from this assumption -- require substantial revision.

....

nikhilarora
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby nikhilarora » 14 Jul 2011 12:09

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Most importantly, the Manmohan Singh government will have to explain the incompetence of the homeland security sector since three years after the horrific 26/11 Mumbai is once again the target of a terror attack.

Terrorism analysts point out that even if Pakistan-based groups had had a hand in these attacks, it might be very difficult to trace it back to them like 26/11 was.
The peace process between the two countries is very fragile at this point, and certainly the Manmohan Singh government will try hard to sustain it. Pakistani leaders have said that India should continue engagement disregarding terrorism since both countries are facing the same menace. Repeatedly, their message has been that India should cut them some slack on the Mumbai attacks because they suffer similar attacks all the time.


I don't know why my blood boils every time I read such a statement from the GOI or about it. We seriously need to do some house cleaning first. It is never going to happen when these clowns are in power, just think for a moment, even if India goes to war, do we have such a leader who can sustain it, who will give strong message and response come what may, even in chaos situation of war. I don't think MMS or Mrs. Patil, the commander in chief of our defence forces have any credibility other than dhoti and saree shiver respectively. This has to stop, can't we do anything about it? For once I am willing to leave everything to support a cause of change.

Lalmohan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Jul 2011 14:33

and i just realised, hillary is visiting india next week
another strong indicator that a terror strike is imminent :( (i don't consider my previous statement to be a prediction of a specific attack, i think i am recognisizing that there are underlying triggers for attacks at ANY TIME)

we have to look at this incident at different levels

1. strategic - war like tensions with india suit the TSPA leadership at this point in time in its game with Unkil

2. tactical - any number of lashkars and assorted bearded nazis under the ISI's guidance can plan and prepare for this sort of attack

3. operational - shiv's eternal city reference is correct - there are many vested interests in mumbai that can allow such a situation to arise, it remains highly vulnerable as long as there is poor governance and a police/political/underworld business understanding

the ISI is the glue behind these levels, and D-company is the facilitator
similarly our response has to be multi-pronged - there is no silver bullet

watch for what obama and hillary have to say over the next few days, how much cover will they provide to munna this time?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby rajanb » 14 Jul 2011 14:43

Lalji


watch for what obama and hillary have to say over the next few days, how much cover will they provide to munna this time?


I for one am not going to hold my breath expecting something except what we have seen over the years..

Lalmohan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Lalmohan » 14 Jul 2011 14:54

i am not expecting them to do anything pro-india
i am waiting to see if they fall for the paqui trap (again)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby Sudip » 14 Jul 2011 15:01

Mumbai terror attack bears all markings of LeT: US media

ProPublica:The latest attack "involved bombs planted in strategic locations, a recurring tactic used by Indian affiliates of Lashkar in recent years."


The Chicago Tribune said the latest Mumbai assault "appears to have been carried out by associates of two Chicago terrorists (David Headley and Tahawwur Rana) convicted last month.

abhishek_sharma
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 15:30

How Cuts Affect U.S.-Pakistan Ties? Daniel Markey

Alone, cutting U.S. military assistance will not force Pakistan to reassess its strategic posture. Pakistan's generals probably benefit from the assistance more than they claim, but they can also do without it. And anti-American sentiment in Pakistan is so intense at the moment, including within the ranks of the army, that Pakistan's generals can hardly appear to bow before U.S. pressure. So if Obama administration officials believe that assistance cuts and public rebukes offer enough leverage to coerce a Pakistani about-face, they will be sorely disappointed.

That said, if Washington's harder line is being taken within the context of a more comprehensive strategy that includes other points of U.S. influence, then this deeper slide in military-to-military relations might be worth suffering.
The United States has leverage in Afghanistan, where U.S. Special Forces can strike a number of the militant groups that have had longstanding ties to the Pakistani state, especially the Haqqani network, in an effort to demonstrate to Islamabad that these groups cannot advance its interests in the region. Washington can also step up efforts to lobby Pakistan's close allies in Beijing and Riyadh to express their own concerns about the ISI's reckless behavior in quiet dialogues with Pakistan's leaders. Finally, Washington can explain to a range of influential Pakistanis that the U.S. goal is not to engineer a break with Pakistan, but to put the relationship on firmer ground.

Even if all these steps are taken, U.S.-Pakistan relations could be heading from bad to worse. In the near term, this will complicate U.S. counterterror missions and the war effort in Afghanistan. Over the long haul, it increases the chances that we will face a nuclear-armed Pakistani state that is increasingly fragile and at odds with America.

abhishek_sharma
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 14 Jul 2011 15:57

Strategic talks with US, Pak peace talks on schedule: Krishna

India said the deadly Mumbai bomb blasts will have no impact on the strategic dialogue with the US and peace talks with Pakistan scheduled later this month.

gakakkad
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby gakakkad » 14 Jul 2011 16:02

^ WHICH brand of biskoots do the Baakis serve ?Are they addictive ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2

Postby krishnan » 14 Jul 2011 16:04

Gold biscuits


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