Indian Army: News & Discussion

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kunalverma
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kunalverma » 16 Sep 2011 07:53

Sometimes we don't think things through. When we were working on the IMA film and later the book, the general concensus was that there must be a chapter on people who had been through the IMA, quit the Army and made it big in Civvie street. I had opposed this then most vehemently as I felt it gave a helluva twisted message - quit the Army and succeed elsewhere! Point I'm making is that sometimes the glamour around celebrities gets the better of the situation.
I personally feel the rank on the shoulder has to be earned, and not conferred as some throw away thing. Maybe the Armed Forces need to have some other system wherein celebrities can be honoured which in turn helps reach out to the younger generations.
More importantly, I feel we should have a system where the Armed Forces and National Security concerns are discussed in schools. It doesn't necessarily have to be linked to recruitment but more of a perception management sort of thing. It would have a far greater impact then having a cricketer grinning from billboards in uniform.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 16 Sep 2011 07:55

Gaur wrote:Antony faces trouble for statement on army chief's age

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/09/ ... nt-on.html

A copy of the Military Secretary's Branch letter that confirms that all General VK Singh's senior promotions (from brigadier to major general to lieutenant general) were on the basis of a date of birth of 10th May 1951. The army chief has been told by the defence ministry that his official date of birth is 10th May 1950, and that he must retire in May 2012 on reaching the age of 62



ASpuar,

This might actually set the tone for addressing the age problem. Normally, the minister 's read out the reply formatted by the MoD personnel. Now, if the minister starts digging backwards, the whole chain of rot will be visible.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ManuJ » 16 Sep 2011 10:02

The Chief is absolutely right to fight it out. If he is right, and it appears that he very much is, then he is right. No question of backing down.

I can't see this playing out any other way than a hasty apology by Antony, followed by sheepish and shameless grins from the babus.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 16 Sep 2011 11:49

ChackoJ,

An interesting article! I will say it again. Its breathtaking, the amount of harm bureaucrats have done to the armed forces, and by extension national security, because of their arrogance and ego over petty things. They should be chucked out of MOD and the ministry should be staffed by service professionals, like MEA, MOSPI and Railways.

They are so hell bent on getting rid of the chief, that they are spreading lies even in Parliament! The minister only reads what the babu tells him to read. If the babu is lying to him, what is the poor minister to do?!

But this is not the only thing. Of late, MOD has been filing false affidavits in courts also, to get their point of view approved. They have been caught out more than once, citing overruled cases, and in some cases, blatantly lying about the true position in the honourable Supreme Court!

Shameful!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 16 Sep 2011 12:11

Shouldnt the Chief file a defamation suit against Sandeep Unnithan, for his article? If DIG CID of both Rajasthan and Punjab verified his DOB as 1951 at the time of filing the entry docs to NDA, I think thats pretty conclusive. A 15 year old VK Singh had no influence over those officials at all!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 16 Sep 2011 12:15

kunalverma wrote:Sometimes we don't think things through. When we were working on the IMA film and later the book, the general concensus was that there must be a chapter on people who had been through the IMA, quit the Army and made it big in Civvie street. I had opposed this then most vehemently as I felt it gave a helluva twisted message - quit the Army and succeed elsewhere! Point I'm making is that sometimes the glamour around celebrities gets the better of the situation.
I personally feel the rank on the shoulder has to be earned, and not conferred as some throw away thing. Maybe the Armed Forces need to have some other system wherein celebrities can be honoured which in turn helps reach out to the younger generations.
More importantly, I feel we should have a system where the Armed Forces and National Security concerns are discussed in schools. It doesn't necessarily have to be linked to recruitment but more of a perception management sort of thing. It would have a far greater impact then having a cricketer grinning from billboards in uniform.



I am dead against handing out of ranks to celebrities for doing diddly squat. There are REAL heroes in the armed forces. It would be much better to make their stories known to the public conscience. This honourary rank thing is a big dud in my opinion, and totally devalues the blood, sweat, and tears which go into the making of a senior services officer.

A show like Param Veer Chakra did much more to attract people to the armed forces than the news that Abhinav Bindra is now an honourary Lieutenant Colonel. I dont give two hoots about Abhinav Bindra. But I do care about the stories of the real men and women who have fought for this nation- for us.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Samay » 16 Sep 2011 13:20

chackojoseph wrote:
This might actually set the tone for addressing the age problem. Normally, the minister 's read out the reply formatted by the MoD personnel. Now, if the minister starts digging backwards, the whole chain of rot will be visible.


I dont think this is such a big problem as it is publicized. Its a matter of few months difference only .And in a country where age relaxation of upto 10 yrs is easily given in caste based reservation system(by assuming that age is not a factor in efficiency at all) this should not be made such a big issue against army's professional image.
Some people have made it a life and death issue for themselves. One gentleman even filed a litigation.
Its nothing but a bureaucratic muddle created by typical Indian bureaucracy .

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kunalverma » 16 Sep 2011 13:22

ASPuar wrote:Shouldnt the Chief file a defamation suit against Sandeep Unnithan, for his article? If DIG CID of both Rajasthan and Punjab verified his DOB as 1951 at the time of filing the entry docs to NDA, I think thats pretty conclusive. A 15 year old VK Singh had no influence over those officials at all!


Just how convulated Unnithan's article is, has to be seen to be believed. Had he checked with VKS before filing his 'story', he would have realized he was being set up by the MOD. Even the contention that VKS petitioned the PMO is not true. Nair, the Proncipal Secretary in the PM's office asked top be briefed on the controversy. A note was prepared and sent to the PMO accordingly by Army HQ. Unnithan says it was an 'unsigned petition' from VKS. The PMO forwarded the note to the MOD.
I was talking to Inderjit Badhwar, former editor of India Today. According to him, the magazine is desperate for a thing like that to happen. Having lost ground to Outlook, their South Indian readership has virtually evaporated. VKS should stay focussed on his case; post retirement he can still slam IT for slander. The irony is the entire story is based on blatant lies and they call the Chief a liar. Cynical politics come first, self interest next and to hell with the country, each and every time.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 16 Sep 2011 13:28

ManuJ wrote:The Chief is absolutely right to fight it out. If he is right, and it appears that he very much is, then he is right. No question of backing down.

I can't see this playing out any other way than a hasty apology by Antony, followed by sheepish and shameless grins from the babus.


I do not see the evil babus nor the politicos doing this.

They are all "superior" to the Army in every way. 8)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 16 Sep 2011 13:31

kunalverma wrote:
ASPuar wrote:Shouldnt the Chief file a defamation suit against Sandeep Unnithan, for his article? If DIG CID of both Rajasthan and Punjab verified his DOB as 1951 at the time of filing the entry docs to NDA, I think thats pretty conclusive. A 15 year old VK Singh had no influence over those officials at all!


Just how convulated Unnithan's article is, has to be seen to be believed. Had he checked with VKS before filing his 'story', he would have realized he was being set up by the MOD. Even the contention that VKS petitioned the PMO is not true. Nair, the Proncipal Secretary in the PM's office asked top be briefed on the controversy. A note was prepared and sent to the PMO accordingly by Army HQ. Unnithan says it was an 'unsigned petition' from VKS. The PMO forwarded the note to the MOD.
I was talking to Inderjit Badhwar, former editor of India Today. According to him, the magazine is desperate for a thing like that to happen. Having lost ground to Outlook, their South Indian readership has virtually evaporated. VKS should stay focussed on his case; post retirement he can still slam IT for slander. The irony is the entire story is based on blatant lies and they call the Chief a liar. Cynical politics come first, self interest next and to hell with the country, each and every time.


Sirjee,

You need to factor in the variable that while saint antony and unnithan are from god's own country and also patently colluding, both may not be men of god. :wink:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 16 Sep 2011 14:33

ASPuar wrote:Shouldnt the Chief file a defamation suit against Sandeep Unnithan, for his article? If DIG CID of both Rajasthan and Punjab verified his DOB as 1951 at the time of filing the entry docs to NDA, I think thats pretty conclusive. A 15 year old VK Singh had no influence over those officials at all!


Technically he could. However, let the entire thing come out. I had maintained that the problem had arisen due to two sets of DoB's and they cannot arbitrarily decide. The police verification is subject to chai paani. So, ignore that. His father being bit high profiled, a lot of seniors could have done favours. I still maintain what i said before.

We have so far heard Gen Singhs' side. The entire MoD debate is not yet out.We have to see how they substantiate. Just like the benefits and doubts I have wrt Gen Sings explanation , I have same with the MoD.

One bad thing here could be the privilege motion threat. AKA is imp to congress. Others will rush in and cook up something.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 16 Sep 2011 17:42

Oh come on.

At the age of 15, VKS hatched such a perfect conspiracy?

He chai panied police CID's across two states? The signatures on these reports is from the heads of CID, DIGs (in those days DIG was the second seniormost rank in the police... equivalent to a Special Director General today...) do you think they could be chai panied, and not just in one state, but in Rajasthan AND Punjab?

He fudged a birth certificate?

He fudged hospital records?

He somehow got his fathers regimental records to reflect a fake date?

COME ON! Do you really believe this? His dad didnt know that he was going to join the army. He had no reason to manipulate any records when he was born. And by the way, manipulations of any regimental records is a court martial offence. His father would NEVER have attempted such a thing.

Come on CJ. I dont believe this cock and bull story the government is trying to put out for one minute.

Why is your first assumption to jump to a totally unfounded conclusion, viz. that somehow he chai panied the cops? Much more likely, is that their report is CORRECT, especially given all the other information which corroborates it, like birth certificate, hospital record, regimental record, Ministry of Defences own records, and a dozen other things!

I agree that Antony will be protected, but Im pretty sure the privilege threat is totally empty. Still, one doesnt want more fraud to be perpetrated just to save him.

Simply put, if, from commissioning till 2006, 36 years, all his service records, promotions, etc were based on May 1951, how can the DOB be changed arbitrarily and suddenly one day to 1950? Its bizarre? One fine day, someone wakes up and says, "Sorry, old boy, but we're cutting your service short by a year, because we want our candidate to be the Chief". Its a blatant lie. And its a travesty. What the devil does the government think its playing at? This is mismanagement on a herculean scale.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby merlin » 16 Sep 2011 18:57

Who is the current army commander of the Northern Command?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Sep 2011 19:11

^^^Lt. General Hasnain.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pmund » 16 Sep 2011 19:18

ASPuar sir, I second u. I dont know how many young guys now have even heard of Arun Khetrapal. Instead of handing out honorary ranks, the Army should publicise stories of its true heroes, men of flesh and blood, who showed superhuman courage and endurance. The 'Paramveer Chakra' serial (not the stupid movie) had an enormous influence on me, it still has. Every story was seared in my memory when I appeared for SSB. It is these stories that people should be told

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 16 Sep 2011 19:43

ASPuar wrote:Oh come on.

At the age of 15, VKS hatched such a perfect conspiracy?

... This is mismanagement on a herculean scale.


Sirji,

That's how I have come to be. Now day's its difficult to take a stand. The form filling, Inspector chai pani verification, the uncles in recruitment who will do things to push you in etc are folklore. I still stand by what I said.

Let MoD say what it want in its defence/ offence. We have to wait and see how this comes out.

And don't think my queries on the equipment R&d were not as ridiculous (as you put it) as this. The folks really stood and put out the facts till I was convinced. I had as much soft corner for the equipments as much for an honest serving officer. If (so far i haven't seen), this turns out to be a fight against corruption and not a clerical error snowballed, then i will also join the bandwagon. But, jumping in without looking is as dangerous.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Sep 2011 20:31

From BR News section (http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=15347)

Babus block Indian Army’s plans to counter China’s PLA

Excerpt:

Indian Army’s plans to beef up presence on the Indo-China border have met with fierce resistance from two unexpected quarters — the finance and the environment ministries.

The finance wing of the defence ministry in consultation with the ministry of finance is not agreeable to spend a whopping Rs12,000 crore to set up a Mountain Strike Corps even as a plan to create an alternate, all-weather route from Siliguri to North Sikkim to rush troops to the Indo-China border has been rejected by the ministry of environment and forests on the grounds that the alignment passes through eco-sensitive areas.

Left with almost no options, the army headquarters is now planning to move in an independent armoured brigade into North Sikkim to try and maintain some muscle on one of its most sensitive border. According to sources in South Block, which houses the ministry of defence, the army is all set to induct the tank brigade by December 31 this year........<SNIP>


<SNIP>......The study group looked at the combined threat from Pakistan and China in a future war and concluded that the bulk of the fighting would take place in the high mountains.

“We found that current force position was woeful. Every Corps is supposed to have at least three army divisions and we were already short of 4 divisions. So not only did we feel the need to fill the void but also have a credible deterrent against China,” a senior officer familiar with the secret study told DNA......<SNIP>


In the last para, of the 4 required, two have been raised in NE - both IV and III Corps now have three divisions each. Other candidates could be XV Corps in Srinagar and XIV Corps in Leh - both have two divisions each. Both the divisions in each Corps looks after a section of either LoC or LAC. And while each division maintains reserves for offensive/defensive actions as required, the capability is limited. Adding a third division to each will give them reserves for strong offensive actions.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 16 Sep 2011 20:55

^^

You see what Im saying? The bureaucracy is amongst the MOST HARMFUL institutions to national security. It should be kept as far away from it as possible.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Avik » 16 Sep 2011 21:02

Who is the current army commander of the Northern Command?


Lt Gen KT Parnaik.

Hasnain is GoC 15 Corps....

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 16 Sep 2011 21:03

chackojoseph wrote:Sirji,

That's how I have come to be. Now day's its difficult to take a stand. The form filling, Inspector chai pani verification, the uncles in recruitment who will do things to push you in etc are folklore. I still stand by what I said.

Let MoD say what it want in its defence/ offence. We have to wait and see how this comes out.

And don't think my queries on the equipment R&d were not as ridiculous (as you put it) as this. The folks really stood and put out the facts till I was convinced. I had as much soft corner for the equipments as much for an honest serving officer. If (so far i haven't seen), this turns out to be a fight against corruption and not a clerical error snowballed, then i will also join the bandwagon. But, jumping in without looking is as dangerous.


CJ, I know where youre coming from. I was a skeptic about this chief in the beginning. But the more I see and hear what is going on in the MOD, the more I realise that the bureaucracy has gone crazy, and is actively working against the national interest. This is not merely a fight against corruption (though it is that). It is also a fight against bloated egos, and a totally inept series of people who are appointed to positions they are not competent to hold.

I agree one should look before one leaps. I have looked as far as I could, and so far, in the absence of any new info, its looking to me like the chief is right.

Its good youre asking the questions, and Im sure once youre convinced, you will take the right stand, whichever way it is.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Sep 2011 21:05

Avik wrote:
Who is the current army commander of the Northern Command?


Lt Gen KT Parnaik.

Hasnain is GoC 15 Corps....


Sorry, my bad :oops: :oops: :oops:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pmund » 16 Sep 2011 23:04

RohitVats, this may be irrelevant in the discussion but Nana Patekar (while I am not doubting his patriotism or his respect for the forces) did not undergo 'commando training' at Belgaum. It is naive to think that the Indian Army or any army would allow a civilian to train in such a secretive set-up. Even the BBC documentary on the junior commando course was given restricted access. Patekar did complete the Ledo jump, so did the other crew members, and a few other obstacle courses, but it would be wrong to say that he completed the course. Can you imagine a civilian completing the death march??? It's not about strength but sheer ruthless endurance that comes from years of ragda in military academies. Many sequences of Prahaar were shot in NDA during summer term break, not Belgaum. Just for laughs, the famous throat pincer move isn't possible. It is impossible to rip someone's throat that way (i know what i am saying). Having said that, yes i am a big fan of Nana :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Sep 2011 23:36

^^^Sirji, my info was based on what I read in the newspaper. So, please to excuse me.I take what you say.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby muraliravi » 16 Sep 2011 23:40

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/gener ... try-134145

The army again contradicts GOI. I think the delay in this reply after AKA's BS was becos VKS was in mongolia.

I think AKA just lied in the parliament. Kick him out. VKS and the nationalists in the forces will take these babus lying down. Either GOI mellows down and just extends his tenure or be ready to face music from the courts.

I think this whole game has nothing to do with VKS, it is all about making sure bikram singh gets in and more importantly keep kr parnaik out.
Last edited by muraliravi on 16 Sep 2011 23:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pmund » 16 Sep 2011 23:41

Heh heh!!! I have the unique advantage of being an ex-serviceman and a journalist so i know how the media manipulates and is manipulated :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby anjan » 16 Sep 2011 23:48

ASPuar wrote:A show like Param Veer Chakra did much more to attract people to the armed forces than the news that Abhinav Bindra is now an honourary Lieutenant Colonel. I dont give two hoots about Abhinav Bindra. But I do care about the stories of the real men and women who have fought for this nation- for us.


Yes. then again, this is not aimed at attracting people like you who already have exposure to the services. This is hoping to rope in people who religiously follow Tendulkar around and maybe just maybe might consider the Air Force to some engg. college instead. If nothing else you've increased the pool of people who might join.

The idea is to communicate the forces to people who are otherwise not exposed to them. If trivializing is the measure then we can also get upset about how much work goes into soldiering and how shows like Rocky and Mayur or Mission Army reduce the complexity of that work. We don't because they reach out to audiences that are not usually reached by the forces.

IMO Ashok Chakras being handed out as political sops in the Mumbai attacks is a bigger problem.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 17 Sep 2011 01:47

Sorry, but I dont agree. People dont look up to Sachin Tendulkar because he is an honourary group captain. Noone in the public even knows that this is the case.

And noone cares about Abhinav Bindra, and much less about Mohanlal being a honorary Lt Col.

Its just an unnecessary degradation of the rank.

Agree about Mumbai AC's. Also about Kirti Chakra to everyone killed in one particular Indian Embassy attack.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sarkar » 17 Sep 2011 01:57

rohitvats wrote:From BR News section (http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=15347)

Babus block Indian Army’s plans to counter China’s PLA

Excerpt:

The finance wing of the defence ministry in consultation with the ministry of finance is not agreeable to spend a whopping Rs12,000 crore to set up a Mountain Strike Corps even as a plan to create an alternate, all-weather route from Siliguri to North Sikkim to rush troops to the Indo-China border has been rejected by the ministry of environment and forests on the grounds that the alignment passes through eco-sensitive areas.



Feeling kind of helpless and sad after reading this. :(

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby anjan » 17 Sep 2011 02:05

geeth wrote:There could also be some link between the Court Martial of Lt.Gen Avadhesh Prakash and the Chief's retirement. To have a pliable chief could be helpful in getting a favourable/less harsh punishment.
I assume this refers to Gen. Bikram Singh? I think it is unfair to besmirch the man in the absence of any concrete evidence. Is there any evidence he's a political man or that he's pliable?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Sep 2011 02:25

babus have not grown since 1962..

quite reasonable in the sense they just represent the votes. why blame them alone?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Sep 2011 02:53

pmund wrote:Even the BBC documentary on the junior commando course was given restricted access.

Tell me about it. To be honest the BBC documentary gave a pretty skewed impression of the junior leader's course. There was another official documentary floating around which showed way more details and was much more impressive (though didn't have the human interest angle of the BBC documentary). I don't know how many of the viewers even know that one of the guys in the BBC documentary, Lt. Dileep Jha died in action.

pmund wrote:Just for laughs, the famous throat pincer move isn't possible. It is impossible to rip someone's throat that way (i know what i am saying).


Impossible for mere mortals like you! We are talking about Nana here. :P

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 17 Sep 2011 08:06

pmund wrote:RohitVats, this may be irrelevant in the discussion but Nana Patekar (while I am not doubting his patriotism or his respect for the forces) did not undergo 'commando training' at Belgaum. It is naive to think that the Indian Army or any army would allow a civilian to train in such a secretive set-up. Even the BBC documentary on the junior commando course was given restricted access. Patekar did complete the Ledo jump, so did the other crew members, and a few other obstacle courses, but it would be wrong to say that he completed the course. Can you imagine a civilian completing the death march??? It's not about strength but sheer ruthless endurance that comes from years of ragda in military academies. Many sequences of Prahaar were shot in NDA during summer term break, not Belgaum. Just for laughs, the famous throat pincer move isn't possible. It is impossible to rip someone's throat that way (i know what i am saying). Having said that, yes i am a big fan of Nana :)


IIRC, the guy used to be in MLIRC Mess almost everyday in his white Gypsy. I am not aware of the current status. JL Wing is restricted access. It difficult to get in though for the normal folks. I was there doing a particular series during my NCC days. They had restricted us from certain obstacles. As pmund says, it takes a lot to "finish" the course. What they did was observe the course and they were put through certain obstacles and drills that were meant for understanding the difficulties.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Sep 2011 12:42

On the chief age controversy ,they say there is no smoke without fire , the issue remains that the Chief accepted DOB in writing twice and his promotion were influenced by his DOB.

AKA has mentioned on the floor of the house that it is 1950 , now as Chacko has said if he is proven wrong or goes back he will most certainly invite privilege motion from members of parliament , So if indeed Chief is proven to be right he will have to resign for misleading the house on such an important issue or the Chief will have to bite to bullet and just ease out after his tenure and will be remembered for his age controversy then any good for his force that he might have done.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 17 Sep 2011 12:59

ASPuar wrote:Oh come on.

At the age of 15, VKS hatched such a perfect conspiracy?

Why would he do that? How would he know that one day he would be COAS and want one extra year?

He chai panied police CID's across two states? The signatures on these reports is from the heads of CID, DIGs (in those days DIG was the second seniormost rank in the police... equivalent to a Special Director General today...) do you think they could be chai panied, and not just in one state, but in Rajasthan AND Punjab?


These verifications are pretty routine and unless there is some criminal records, the poor padnu and SI who visit the address is already trying to befriend the father as his son is going to be a Big man in future. Reports are not about birth certificates, actually.

He fudged a birth certificate?

Unless proved , it is rubbish.

He fudged hospital records?

Is it likely in any army hospital? I don't think so.

He somehow got his fathers regimental records to reflect a fake date?

Well this is going a little too far.

COME ON! Do you really believe this? His dad didnt know that he was going to join the army. He had no reason to manipulate any records when he was born. And by the way, manipulations of any regimental records is a court martial offence. His father would NEVER have attempted such a thing.

Come on CJ. I dont believe this cock and bull story the government is trying to put out for one minute.



Why is your first assumption to jump to a totally unfounded conclusion, viz. that somehow he chai panied the cops? Much more likely, is that their report is CORRECT, especially given all the other information which corroborates it, like birth certificate, hospital record, regimental record, Ministry of Defences own records, and a dozen other things!

I agree that Antony will be protected, but Im pretty sure the privilege threat is totally empty. Still, one doesnt want more fraud to be perpetrated just to save him.

Simply put, if, from commissioning till 2006, 36 years, all his service records, promotions, etc were based on May 1951, how can the DOB be changed arbitrarily and suddenly one day to 1950? Its bizarre? One fine day, someone wakes up and says, "Sorry, old boy, but we're cutting your service short by a year, because we want our candidate to be the Chief". Its a blatant lie. And its a travesty. What the devil does the government think its playing at? This is mismanagement on a herculean scale.


Clearly there is something fishy going on. This controversy should be put to rest. C J , all records point to the conclusion that General's right. What MOD did was not correct. If it feels so then it should put all records before public.

chaanakya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 17 Sep 2011 13:06

Austin wrote:On the chief age controversy ,they say there is no smoke without fire , the issue remains that the Chief accepted DOB in writing twice and his promotion were influenced by his DOB.

AKA has mentioned on the floor of the house that it is 1950 , now as Chacko has said if he is proven wrong or goes back he will most certainly invite privilege motion from members of parliament , So if indeed Chief is proven to be right he will have to resign for misleading the house on such an important issue or the Chief will have to bite to bullet and just ease out after his tenure and will be remembered for his age controversy then any good for his force that he might have done.

yes, if AKA is wrong, he should not only resign, but leave politics. If he is right . let Chief retire.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 17 Sep 2011 15:43

Austin wrote:On the chief age controversy ,they say there is no smoke without fire , the issue remains that the Chief accepted DOB in writing twice and his promotion were influenced by his DOB.

AKA has mentioned on the floor of the house that it is 1950 , now as Chacko has said if he is proven wrong or goes back he will most certainly invite privilege motion from members of parliament , So if indeed Chief is proven to be right he will have to resign for misleading the house on such an important issue or the Chief will have to bite to bullet and just ease out after his tenure and will be remembered for his age controversy then any good for his force that he might have done.



This is again a canard. All his promotions till 2006 (he was already a Lieutenant General) were with DOB recorded as 1951. Suddenly he was told to change it to 1950.

The chief returned the request of the MS and COAS to alter his DOB twice.

The first time he said no.

When they insisted, and threatened action, he returned the file noting that he has signed it on orders from above. This didnt satisfy Army HQ, because it was not a factual acceptance, but simply saying "im signing it because youre saying so, but I dont agree with it". No army officer can refuse his Chiefs order. If the chief orders so, then it must be done. But he mentioned that it was done on order.

Austin
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Sep 2011 15:52

ASPuar wrote:When they insisted, and threatened action, he returned the file noting that he has signed it on orders from above. This didnt satisfy Army HQ, because it was not a factual acceptance, but simply saying "im signing it because youre saying so, but I dont agree with it". No army officer can refuse his Chiefs order. If the chief orders so, then it must be done. But he mentioned that it was done on order.


if the person believes in what he does then he can simply put down his papers , Saying he has done it on being threatened or becuase his bosses forced him to do shows how weak a person may be if under duress they can get things from him. Doesnt speak well for a chief that leads a 1.1 million strong force.

Is there a dissent note that he has signed it although he would not do it ? Unless you can prove there is a dissent note its a shallow argument.

Austin
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Sep 2011 16:00

chaanakya wrote:yes, if AKA is wrong, he should not only resign, but leave politics. If he is right . let Chief retire.


Leave politics for what he may just quit thats it and that too not becuase the chief is proven right because he mislead on the floor of the house

ASPuar
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 17 Sep 2011 16:20

Austin wrote:
ASPuar wrote:When they insisted, and threatened action, he returned the file noting that he has signed it on orders from above. This didnt satisfy Army HQ, because it was not a factual acceptance, but simply saying "im signing it because youre saying so, but I dont agree with it". No army officer can refuse his Chiefs order. If the chief orders so, then it must be done. But he mentioned that it was done on order.


if the person believes in what he does then he can simply put down his papers , Saying he has done it on being threatened or becuase his bosses forced him to do shows how weak a person may be if under duress they can get things from him. Doesnt speak well for a chief that leads a 1.1 million strong force.

Is there a dissent note that he has signed it although he would not do it ? Unless you can prove there is a dissent note its a shallow argument.


Boss, answer to everything is not resign. Why should he resign, if the charges against him are nonsense? Resign, and let the other side have its way? I would never have resigned if I was him. He is doing the right thing by fighting this injustice. And he certainly should not resign now. Its just what his detractors want. They will immediately make it look like he was fired, and that he accepts that he was wrong.

No. The government made this bed of roses for itself. Let them now lie in it. No easy way out with the chief backing down and resigning. This argument of "it doesnt look good" is just what the babus have always counted on, that the service members will always err on the side of caution, and never let any indignity heaped by the bureaucracy on the forces turn into a public spat. Well, it goes both ways. Lets see how the matter ends.

To have resigned when he was forced to sign the papers would have been even worse. It would have meant that an honest officer is chucked out, and the crooked designs and the will of the people forcing him to resign would prevail, and their type could go around ruining the careers of honest officers again and again.

Instead, the general rose to high rank, and ensured that the MS got court martialed and all hell broke loose. Time the crooks got a taste of their own medicine, and the Augean stables are well and truly cleaned. He did the right thing. He played along with the rotten system until he was in a position to do something about it. And then, he attacked.

Austin
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Sep 2011 16:31

ASPuar wrote: Boss, answer to everything is not resign. Why should he resign, if the charges against him are nonsense? Resign, and let the other side have its way? I would never have resigned if I was him. He is doing the right thing by fighting this injustice. And he certainly should not resign now. Its just what his detractors want. They will immediately make it look like he was fired, and that he accepts that he was wrong.


Then he should not have scummed to the pressure of his bosses , you cant get it both ways . He could have put a note of dissent disagreed upon and could have put his papers.

The Chief should never repeat never end up in confrontation with Government , It doesnt agur well for the morale of the force should the government end up taking action against him , It took a long time for the Navy to get over Vishnu Bhagwat episode.

If the chief serves 10 months less heavens wont fall , some one who is equally competent as he is will take over and continue with the good work

No. The government made this bed of roses for itself. Let them now lie in it. No easy way out with the chief backing down and resigning.


Lets see who has made bed of roses or bed of thorns for himself , my fear is this will lead to a Vishnu Bhagwat like confrontation and the results are just too damaging for the armed forces.


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