Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Nikhil T
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 25 Sep 2011 11:23

AS Puar wrote:Even his predecessor, who sold himself for becoming Chairman NDMA. Useless. Service members should shun such a so called chief, and cold shoulder him after retirement.

The only recent General who set a proper example was Paddy, who refused a governorship, when offered, saying he was quite happy in retirement.


Austin wrote:Rewarding Governorship is quite routine and has become common now , the most blatant misuse of this power was seen when they rewarded Admiral Sureesh Mehta as India's High Commissioner to New Zealand few months after he left the position of Navy Chief , becuase he stood by the government during the Nuclear Bum crises and said on record that we have the big bum.

The MOD and Chief scratch each others back and they play tango with politician joining in.


Why are we trying to imply that every ex-Chief who has a post-retirement job lined up is a 'crook' with a quid-pro-quo with the Govt.? There is nothing wrong in what Admiral Sureesh Mehta said in the Nuclear debate and there is certainly nothing wrong in taking becoming a High Commissioner to an island state. Very often, the PM sends a political appointee as a HC to establish or further a special project. Read B.Raman's "Kaoboys of RAW" to know more about this practice. Who knows what special projects the ex-Navy chief is leading with NZ? Why jump to the conclusion that he had a quid-pro-quo just because he said that we had the bomb?

Its very funny that we all grumble and shout hoarse whenever a Service chief is chided for speaking up in a national issue (the Ramdev debate, the ICBM comment from PV Naik) but when a Chief does exactly that in a very relevant debate like Adm Mehta did, we are quick to say "oh right there is a quid-pro-quo. He must be lining up a post-retirement job".

For everyone's information this is exactly what Adm Mehta said in 2008. Ther is nothing, repeat nothing, ground breaking about what he said. Read it to see how much of it seems scripted:

Admiral Sureesh Mehta, also the chairman of the chiefs of staff committee, on Thursday said India had "a credible minimum nuclear deterrent'' in line with its no-first use (NFU) policy.

"We are a nation which maintains a credible deterrent...more than enough to deter anybody,'' said Admiral Mehta. And should someone do the unthinkable by launching a first-strike, then the "consequences will be more than what they can bear''.


Asked about former DRDO scientist K Santhanam's statement that the hydrogen bomb tested during Pokhran-II was actually "a fizzle'', Admiral Mehta said, "As far as we are concerned, scientists have given us a certain capability which is enough to provide requisite deterrence...the deterrent is tried and tested.''

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby anjan » 25 Sep 2011 12:24

Nikhil T wrote:Why are we trying to imply that every ex-Chief who has a post-retirement job lined up is a 'crook' with a quid-pro-quo with the Govt.? There is nothing wrong in what Admiral Sureesh Mehta said in the Nuclear debate and there is certainly nothing wrong in taking becoming a High Commissioner to an island state. Very often, the PM sends a political appointee as a HC to establish or further a special project. Read B.Raman's "Kaoboys of RAW" to know more about this practice. Who knows what special projects the ex-Navy chief is leading with NZ? Why jump to the conclusion that he had a quid-pro-quo just because he said that we had the bomb?

Its very funny that we all grumble and shout hoarse whenever a Service chief is chided for speaking up in a national issue (the Ramdev debate, the ICBM comment from PV Naik) but when a Chief does exactly that in a very relevant debate like Adm Mehta did, we are quick to say "oh right there is a quid-pro-quo. He must be lining up a post-retirement job".
Well said. It's unseemly for folks to take advantage of the current crisis to further their personal pet peeves. I don't even agree with the character assasination of Gen. Bikram Singh, who stands to gain in this current mess, in the absence of credible information. All we have is one dubious video from one channel alleging something about his daughter-in-law. Is that even true? Perhaps he's politically connected, perhaps not. These are speculations.

The Chief's current fight should and does stand on it's own merits. A stautory complaint is serious business. The Govt. can't brush it under the carpet. He's in the right; the MoD is not. End of story.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Sep 2011 12:33

Nikhil T wrote:For everyone's information this is exactly what Adm Mehta said in 2008. Ther is nothing, repeat nothing, ground breaking about what he said. Read it to see how much of it seems scripted:


He was the only chief who openly supported the government on this issue at that point in time ,also its easy to see how top position of Indian High Commissioner goes to ex admiral immediately after retirement unless the IFS really lacks talented and experienced people.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/Navy ... 58773.html

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 25 Sep 2011 12:38

Sureesh Mehta was in fact, the rare case where the officer REPEATEDLY stood up to the govt, but was still rewarded, because he was in fact a very competent man.

I have no complaint against Sureesh Mehta. He was an excellent chief, who stood up for his men, and the interests of his service and this nation. I have no doubt that he is an excellent high commissioner also.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 25 Sep 2011 12:42

Austin wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:For everyone's information this is exactly what Adm Mehta said in 2008. Ther is nothing, repeat nothing, ground breaking about what he said. Read it to see how much of it seems scripted:


He was the only chief who openly supported the government on this issue at that point in time ,also its easy to see how top position of Indian High Commissioner goes to ex admiral immediately after retirement unless the IFS really lacks talented and experienced people.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/Navy ... 58773.html


Boss, Sureesh Mehta was a real Tiger. He plainly stated that the Russkies are delaying, and wont get any more projects from us, even though the govt wanted to hush it up. He ALONE amongst the chiefs stood up to the government as CDS, on the 6th CPC anomalies.

The question isnt dearth of talent in IFS. The point is that these are appointments within the gift of the government, and Admiral Mehta was an excellent choice. Many IAS officers have also been ambassadors. Take PC Alexander for example. Its a well established precedent that ambassadorial appointments are not the exclusive preserve of the IFS. IPS officers like Sankaran Nair have also been high commissioner.

No big deal, so dont carp. My issue is with officers who barter away the interests of their service in exchange for personal interest. And Admiral Mehta is totally not in that category. So no need to try and slander him.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Sep 2011 12:51

ASPuar wrote:No big deal, so dont carp. My issue is with officers who barter away the interests of their service in exchange for personal interest. And Admiral Mehta is totally not in that category. So no need to try and slander him.


In that case do not complain of Army Chief getting Governership from GOI just because in your opinion they might not be competent people .

We cant have two yardstick to judge people becuase the Government know who to reward and lets say they are all competent.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 25 Sep 2011 12:51

Austin wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:For everyone's information this is exactly what Adm Mehta said in 2008. Ther is nothing, repeat nothing, ground breaking about what he said. Read it to see how much of it seems scripted:


He was the only chief who openly supported the government on this issue at that point in time ,also its easy to see how top position of Indian High Commissioner goes to ex admiral immediately after retirement unless the IFS really lacks talented and experienced people.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/Navy ... 58773.html


Political appointees are nothing new. Meera Shankar was the first career IFS officer posted as the Ambassador to US in many decades. Moscow/London and many Gulf states have had non-IFS officers posted. Hell, google our current ambassador to Slovenia. J&K, Punjab, Assam have had ex-Service Chiefs as Governors for many years now. National Security Advisory Board, semi-official think-tanks are full of retired Lt Generals. What crime did Gen (retd) NC Vij do by being the chairman of National Disaster Management Authority?

Funny how now babudom is being termed as 'talented and experienced people' and the Service chiefs as soul-selling post-retirement job hunters. Very funny.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Sep 2011 13:14

My response was to a post which claimed some Army Chief got the governorship becuase he was close to something ,I gave another example where I could see some navy chief getting a similar plum position since he came out in support of government where other chief at that point choose to remain silent.

So lets accept that GOI rewards people based on who they think are close to people in power or lets accept all position are based on merit and competence.

As far as VKS issue goes he can always take legal recourse if he thinks he was done wrong with.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 25 Sep 2011 13:18

My dear Austin, I have cited the difference in behaviour between JJS and Sureesh Mehta. THAT is the reason for my comments on one, and support for the other. Rational people differentiate on the basis of facts.

You are correct, VKS can certainly take legal recourse. And perhaps he will.

Its odd, how BR, which started out as a forum for people with an interest in the armed forces, has over time turned into a trolling station for variegated services baiters.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Sep 2011 13:33

ASPuar wrote:My dear Austin, I have cited the difference in behaviour between JJS and Sureesh Mehta. THAT is the reason for my comments on one, and support for the other. Rational people differentiate on the basis of facts.


Lets not be the final arbitrator of fact as every thing you know is right and just , you were not JJS boss to see how he performed during his service years and know every thing about his competencies , for any thing the new media article might just be another article to slander JJS and its the season of slandering any ways both against Service chief and MOD.

So lets not get into the debate of i know better since I am rational and I can judge based on some facts thrown by media.

And as far as Mehta goes , he was the same person who later said to the media that he was willing to give a cheque to any one who can get an aircraft carrier at similar price .

On VKS I agree and that is what I think he should do if he thinks he has been wrong.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 25 Sep 2011 13:42

The race to catch up with China has heated up with New Delhi allocating Rs 10,000 crore to the Military Engineering Services (MES) alone, for infrastructure development in the North East for the next five years.

With news like this, find it hard to believe that the Rs 12000 crore for a new strike corps was rejected for monetary reasons..

Me thinks it was just a smokescreen like the unlimited Prithvi tests of earlier( which tested everything but the Prithvi) and the actual raising might take place under some other financial column of GoI account sheet.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 25 Sep 2011 13:45

ASPuar wrote:I dont know if the issue is shortage of money. Theres plenty of money in India, as is quite evident by the size of scams detected every day. What do you think of the issue about the new corps?


The strike corps is not shot down. its a big venture, there will be some re-looking.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby member_19648 » 25 Sep 2011 14:05

sum wrote:Me thinks it was just a smokescreen like the unlimited Prithvi tests of earlier( which tested everything but the Prithvi) and the actual raising might take place under some other financial column of GoI account sheet.

Another thing is that, the proposal was going well, and the setting up almost imminent. And it was meant to be a secret. But at that point of time, the Desi media decided to unfurl the news to the world, saying it didn't have the compulsion anymore to keep the news hidden. In 2-3 days time, the Media had to report the proposal was shot down. Might be that India doesn't want to irk China at the present moment judging by their superiority in north east region. So the setting up might be going covertly and no would know about it, one fine day, the world will get to know that it is already there.

I might or might not be wrong, so open to discussions!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Sep 2011 14:55

Women pilots lead Sikkim rescue operation


Bagdogra (West Bengal), September 25, 2011

Had it not been for the September 18 earthquake that devastated Sikkim, Flight Lieutenant Arunima Vidhate would have perhaps been working on her backhand at a squash court. But on Saturday, the 26-year-old squash buff along with two women helicopter pilots were in their flying gear,
waiting to execute yet another rescue mission in North Sikkim’s intimidating terrain.

That go-ahead didn’t come as the weather turned treacherous and rescue efforts were called off for the second straight day.

"There are people out there who have been cut off from the world. The ‘whop-whop-whop’ sound of a chopper lights up their faces and gives them hope,” said Arunima, who has logged more than 350 flying hours on Chetak and Cheetah helicopters.

She is one of the 30 air force pilots who are in the thick of operations at Bagdogra — the nerve centre of the IAF’s rescue and relief efforts.

The pilots have flown more than 100 sorties on Chetak, Cheetah and MI-17 choppers assigned to this airbase. Flight Lieutenant Poornima Ranade, 25, had never felt a quake of such magnitude before. She said, “I was assigned a rescue mission on Thursday, but I couldn’t land due to rough weather. It’s hard to even imagine what these people are going through.”

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby vishvak » 25 Sep 2011 15:32

Ivanev wrote:
sum wrote:Me thinks it was just a smokescreen like the unlimited Prithvi tests of earlier( which tested everything but the Prithvi) and the actual raising might take place under some other financial column of GoI account sheet.

Another thing is that, the proposal was going well, and the setting up almost imminent. And it was meant to be a secret. But at that point of time, the Desi media decided to unfurl the news to the world, saying it didn't have the compulsion anymore to keep the news hidden. In 2-3 days time, the Media had to report the proposal was shot down. Might be that India doesn't want to irk China at the present moment judging by their superiority in north east region. So the setting up might be going covertly and no would know about it, one fine day, the world will get to know that it is already there.

I might or might not be wrong, so open to discussions!

I don't think that countries like Pakis or Chinese have any rights to protest on Indian defense strength, even less considering their nuclear proliferation and ganging up against India. Similarly, the dumb media should not be trusted so much openly considering such kind of behavior. If it is a secret then its secrecy remains unchanged for sure especially when such dumb media knows nothing to 'communicate secrets to everyone' nothing.

Personally I could suggest that mountain warfare troops that make the most of mountains are very much more welcome for defending our borders as well as taking long grueling fights into enemy mountains for national defense.

Adminji, please delete this if this is too obvious.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 25 Sep 2011 19:12

TATA motors has a recee vehicle on Sumo chasis with electronic gizmo's from Yahudis. It is for the army.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 25 Sep 2011 19:56

Chackochetta,
Like the samyukta system???

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Boreas » 25 Sep 2011 21:14

sum wrote:
The race to catch up with China has heated up with New Delhi allocating Rs 10,000 crore to the Military Engineering Services (MES) alone, for infrastructure development in the North East for the next five years.

With news like this, find it hard to believe that the Rs 12000 crore for a new strike corps was rejected for monetary reasons..

Me thinks it was just a smokescreen like the unlimited Prithvi tests of earlier( which tested everything but the Prithvi) and the actual raising might take place under some other financial column of GoI account sheet.


good observation. Question is what can we infer from that observation.

1) as everyone is saying dilli doesnt want to piss of beijing yet.

2) the actual bill is way over 12K crores.

3) the plan didn't find enough supporters in current establishment. and may be some of them pointed out that it will be wise to divert funds in "other things". (where, beg my pardon, other things = stuff having fat kickbacks)

4) or maybe as congress govt has three more years left, they thought to push it below the priority charts to be handled in either in penultimate or the last year before leaving the office. (much like the defense core)

5) or as you said one chritmas we all will get it as surprise.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 25 Sep 2011 21:18

There is likely to be a pretty bening reason for the MoF asking IA to re-look at the expense sheet for the MSC for NE - at 12,000 crores or ~2.6 billion USD, this is way-2 above the earlier reference points. For example, the babus@MoF might have looked at the cost incurred in raising the two mountain divisions in NE recently, added certain additional percentage to it (to cater to Corps HQ and typical Corps level assets) and arrived at ball parks number. And compared to the same, 12,000 crores may have seemed too high.

But - my hunch is that this bill also includes funds for intergral helicopter elements and . For example, something like composite aviation brigade to arilift a brigade worth of troops, for vertical movement of LWH component etc. The MSC concept may well represent a gold-plated standard of equipment profile.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 25 Sep 2011 21:44

Bala Vignesh wrote:Chackochetta,
Like the samyukta system???


No. Tac Recce with night capability.

I found the reference here.

Tata Light Specialist Vehicle (LSV) probably.

Then they have orders for MPV's.

Probably I will be writing something tomorrow on TATA nano. I will try to add references to it.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Boreas » 25 Sep 2011 21:59

I think the all inclusive package (infantry + light tank, light howitzer, airlift mechanism) will be stretching much beyond the stated amount. And somebody (babu) have decided to let the files spin between tables till somebody (IA) figures how to shed some weight out of it. This 12K figure is an understatment of the real figure.

Such ideas need a pursuer. Nobody in GOI had enough will power to push things like this forward and keep pushing, neither do they have enough energy left after spending entire day to save there faces in media. Probably IA needs a Charlie Wilson of its own.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Vinito » 25 Sep 2011 22:29

Found this article in Janes Defence Weekly..Never knew that the Mark2 version was gonna be so expensive

Image

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby vishvak » 25 Sep 2011 23:03

Vinito wrote:Found this article in Janes Defence Weekly..Never knew that the Mark2 version was gonna be so expensive

Although I don't have latest figures or explanations, a few things I can reason is:
1. Price for T90s was quoted with reference year 2001
2. The Arjun Mk2 value may include indicator to future profit prediction/sales to others, etc. (not too sure here).
3. Indigenous therefore indirectly affects competition by being 'competitive' in price and quality, etc. hence reducing other competitor's relative price and increasing quality of itself with others too.
4. Indigenous therefore avoids costly slow maintenance, have expertise to improvise quickly as required independently of others, etc.

I am not expert here but I think Arjun Mk2 has a lot of direct/indirect advantages. The actual cost is therefore can be said as relative and also an investment for better tanks in future.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 26 Sep 2011 01:45

What i dont understand is how can journalists be so stupid that they cant consider economies of scale. The Abrams after thousands of tanks costs 6.95 mil USD same with the T-90s. Let the government go ahead and order 1500 tanks this 8 mil will come down 4.5-5 mi, typically 30% reduction which is the norm across the industry. Ordering 248 tanks is not helping this either

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 26 Sep 2011 11:02

Army wants VVIPs kept out of Sikkim - TOI

A senior government source said the Army conveyed its suggestion to the defence ministry this weekend, after the Army and IAF were forced to divert significant number helicopters and personnel for visit of various VVIPs. Among those who have already visited the region are Congress general secretary Rahul Gandhi and home minister P Chidambaram.


For Chungthang and beyond, the Army maintains ration of 55 days on normal times, as part of its preparedness for the border region. But since the earthquake, this ration is being distributed to local residents. Thus maintaining those ration stocks, reaching aviation fuel, diesel etc to the military formations that are beyond the road cut-off by earthquake are all dependent on helicopters.


A big salute for the true sons of Mother India.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 26 Sep 2011 11:44

suryag wrote:What i dont understand is how can journalists be so stupid that they cant consider economies of scale. The Abrams after thousands of tanks costs 6.95 mil USD same with the T-90s. Let the government go ahead and order 1500 tanks this 8 mil will come down 4.5-5 mi, typically 30% reduction which is the norm across the industry. Ordering 248 tanks is not helping this either


These are all unsubstantiated assumptions. Who knows how much the cost will come down eventually.

However, I would say regardless of the cost, its worthwhile developing the tanks ourselves. Army Chief Gen VK Singh has echoed similar sentiments, in re his words on "we cannot build a strong army on borrowed power".

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 26 Sep 2011 12:05

Arjun Mk2 cost higher becuase it would have significant import content either by direct import or lic production , since most of the stuff for Arjun Mk2 is western orientiation it would any way be costlier add to that the people who sell it would make a fat profit margin over it .

There are lot of new in Mk2 including a new engine from Cummins and the tank it self have many new features and bring new capabilities which all add up to the cost. Bulk ordering will some what reduce the cost but not much since these equipment will any way have to be imported or lic produced and depending on when you order the equipment cost go high and military inflation take its toll.

Similar Western or Russian tank cost lower because most of the contents are from their own industry , from what I know the latest US M1A2SEP cost around ~ $ 6 million and the latest T-90MS cost around ~ $ 5 million.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 26 Sep 2011 12:31

ASPuar wrote:However, I would say regardless of the cost, its worthwhile developing the tanks ourselves. Army Chief Gen VK Singh has echoed similar sentiments, in re his words on "we cannot build a strong army on borrowed power".

+1 to that. We need our own MIC

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Sep 2011 12:49

Austin wrote:Arjun Mk2 cost higher becuase it would have significant import content either by direct import or lic production , since most of the stuff for Arjun Mk2 is western orientiation it would any way be costlier add to that the people who sell it would make a fat profit margin over it .

There are lot of new in Mk2 including a new engine from Cummins and the tank it self have many new features and bring new capabilities which all add up to the cost. Bulk ordering will some what reduce the cost but not much since these equipment will any way have to be imported or lic produced and depending on when you order the equipment cost go high and military inflation take its toll.

Similar Western or Russian tank cost lower because most of the contents are from their own industry , from what I know the latest US M1A2SEP cost around ~ $ 6 million and the latest T-90MS cost around ~ $ 5 million.


Hasnt the US stopped tank Manufacture long back, they are only refurbishing existing M1A1 with MLU's right. So any US cost would be for for 1999 prices of USD 6 million.

The contract value of 140 Abrams sold to Iraq under the 2008 contract incl support equipment was USD 2.16 Billion, i.e ~USD 15.5 Million per tank. in 2011 prices this would probably be anther 10% higher.

The Saudi's Purchased 58 New Abrams and upgraged 315 tanks for a total contract in 2006 for USD 2.9 Billion. Assuming Iraq price for the new Tanks. That means the upgrade cost was around USD 2 Billion , i.e 6 million per tank on 2006 5 years ago.

Arjun MKII is about half the price.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 26 Sep 2011 14:06

US makes a huge profit from those sales ,so yes cost is higher and it would also include some logistic too

Yes they are refurbishing the existing tank to M1A2SEP standards and it costs around ~ $6 million.

You can perhaps compare the cost of Leopard 2A6 which according to wiki is US$5.74 million at 2007 cost or even the most recent cost of modified M1A1 sale to egypt of $ 6.95 million

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Sep 2011 15:00

Austin wrote: even the most recent cost of modified M1A1 sale to egypt of $ 6.95 million


Not to nitpick but the latest 125 M1 sold to Egpt in 2007 were sold for USD 1.32 billion which USD 10.5 mil per Tank, now there is a proposal to upgrade these which will cost more.

Even this 36crore figure for Arjun MK II should include accessories etc.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 26 Sep 2011 15:05

Aditya_V wrote:Not to nitpick but the latest 125 M1 sold to Egpt in 2007 were sold for USD 1.32 billion which USD 10.5 mil per Tank, now there is a proposal to upgrade these which will cost more.


This is what the deal is link

The US DSCA announces [PDF] Egypt’s official request for another 125 M1A1 Abrams tank kits for co-production as the co-production program’s 11th increment. The ready for assembly kits will be accompanied by 125 M256 Armament Systems (120mm gun and associated sights and equipment), 125 M2 .50 caliber machine guns, 250 M240 7.62mm machine guns, 125 AGT-1500 M1A1 series tank engines and transmissions, 120mm test cartridges, spare and repair parts, maintenance, support equipment, special tool and test equipment, personnel training and equipment, publications and technical documentation, and other forms of U.S. Government and contractor support.


Even this 36crore figure for Arjun MK II should include accessories etc.


I think thats the unit cost as MOD has mentioned.

I am in the process of collecting the cost but this is what I found out from this link http://armour.ws/the-best-tank-in-the-world/ , Seems Leo 2A6 is the best bang for buck among all western tank but with cost of ~ $5 million for T-90MS it would be the better bang for buck overall.

Leopard 2A6 is $5.5 million
K2 Black Panther. $8.8 million

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 26 Sep 2011 17:09

The mystery of not changing the YOB of Gen VKS is here. I am not saying that this is the excat cause, but, it could be the reason for objection.

Birth date change becomes difficult for government servants

Government servants who are looking forward for last ditch effort to increase the span of service with date of birth change, should take note of this...... and even if there is no period of limitation prescribed for seeking correction of date of birth, the Government servant must do so without any unreasonable delay.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby muraliravi » 26 Sep 2011 20:28

chackojoseph wrote:The mystery of not changing the YOB of Gen VKS is here. I am not saying that this is the excat cause, but, it could be the reason for objection.

Birth date change becomes difficult for government servants

Government servants who are looking forward for last ditch effort to increase the span of service with date of birth change, should take note of this...... and even if there is no period of limitation prescribed for seeking correction of date of birth, the Government servant must do so without any unreasonable delay.


VKS has repeatedly stressed, that he is not trying to change his DOB. Change is a valid term if 1950 is there in all his records and he has found it now. All his life in all his ID's and docs, it is 1951. Some loony wants to screw India and played the game in 2006. Now the attorney general finds 5 records where it is 1950. All he wants is a correction.

if his DOB is not 1951, he will lose the case in court, which I am sure he wont. So change is being resisted by babudom, which has some other big game up its sleeve. So all this administrative stuff does not matter. Damn it man, when a italian import with no degree can fake her degree in the Indian system, u are telling me that we have objections to genuine people on legitimate grounds

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 26 Sep 2011 23:41

chackojoseph wrote:The mystery of not changing the YOB of Gen VKS is here. I am not saying that this is the excat cause, but, it could be the reason for objection.

Birth date change becomes difficult for government servants

Government servants who are looking forward for last ditch effort to increase the span of service with date of birth change, should take note of this...... and even if there is no period of limitation prescribed for seeking correction of date of birth, the Government servant must do so without any unreasonable delay.

Generally five years. But is it really a change of DOB or deliberate obfuscation by MOD/coterie of IA officers of yesteryears?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 27 Sep 2011 08:18

X-Post

Assam Rifles chief spent govt money on wife

NEW DELHI: The Army headquarters wants to conduct a formal inquiry against the Director General of Assam Rifles after evidence emerged that he spent regimental funds of the paramilitary force on his wife's clothing, hair dressing, gifts etc.

Sources said Army chief Gen V K Singh has written to home secretary R K Singh demanding the repatriation of Lt Gen Rameshwar Roy, a serving Army officer who is now heading Assam Rifles, which is a paramilitary force under the home ministry.

Sources said Army headquarters has documentary evidence showing that Lt Gen Roy spent at least Rs 23,000 of regimental funds of Assam Rifles for personal expenses, especially for his wife. "It doesn't matter how much is the money, but misuse of regimental fund is a very serious issue," a senior officer said.

The Army received photocopies of documents showing payments made mostly for his wife's personal expenditure, a source said. Preliminary inquiries have established veracity of the documents, he added. If the home ministry repatriates him, then Lt Gen Roy will first face a court of inquiry constituted by the Army, at one of its commands.

If Lt Gen Roy faces disciplinary action, then he would be the latest among a string of senior officials to face inquiry, or disciplinary action, in recent years. Senior Army officers have already faced, or are facing, disciplinary proceedings in Adarsh and Sukhna scams, and several other scandals.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby brvarsh » 27 Sep 2011 09:25

I think he might have misunderstood the document that said - "Money to be spent on people fighting you" :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 27 Sep 2011 11:32

Tsk... It may just be a fraud complaint by a contractor. A CPO DG can do corruption of 100's of crores. Why would he do something worth 23,000? In the Mid 2000's an IG SSB (an IPS officer) was taken to task for filing a bill of 10Lakhs for his mother, who was not entitled. He answered saying, I control a budget of 200 crores. Why do I need to take this money? It was a simple error of understadning, and he returned it.

If indeed the wrong fund has been used for DG AR's wife, let him reimburse it. There is no need to cause unnecessary controversy.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pragnya » 27 Sep 2011 19:01

ASPuar wrote:Chacko, would you consider doing a feature on Army Aviation? Not just the machines (though it would be good to have some news on those too, and what future plans for inductions and force structure are), but also the men, and how exactly do infantrymen/artillerymen/engineers end up becoming pilots in Army Avn?


there is a story on the army aviation in the latest vayu mag (4/2011) by Lt Gen B S Pawar and an interview with Maj Gen P K Bharali, ADG - AA.

do catch hold of it. also an article on the Pakistan Army Aviation too.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kunalverma » 28 Sep 2011 17:02

Gentlemen, the article appended below is written by General Harbhajan Singh. He raises some extremely pertinent points:

Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:25:11 -0700
From: genharbhajansingh@yahoo.com
Subject: MOD's role in COAS DOB

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) of the Govt of India is hardly known for efficiency, transparency, uprightness or for safeguarding interests of the Services. The Raksha Mantralaya has all the power but no accountability. Whether it was airlifting troops into J&K in 1947 or integrating the Nation, the decisions were taken by the PM, the C in C and Sardar Patel, the then Home Minister, not the MOD.

The first time the MOD played an active role was in the 1950s leading to the Sino Indian Conflict in 1962. Krishna Menon’s obnoxious behaviour led to the resignation of the Army Chief. Bungling of external affairs led to a Sino Indian War and thanks to political interference in the Army, the Nation suffered a most humiliating defeat in 1962.

In 1965 and 1971 the decisions to go to war were taken by the PMs in direct consultation with the Chiefs. MOD played no part. The next time a Defence Minister got involved in a conflict was in 1999. The Raksha Mantri visited Kargil and Dras from 12 to 14 May, learnt of the intrusions, yet it was only on 26 May that the first fighters flew over Kargil. Who is responsible for the delay, which allowed the enemy to consolidate further on the mountains overlooking Kargil?

The controversy over the date of birth of the present Chief is another symptom of the diseased MOD.

There is nothing wrong in putting up a complaint when one feels aggrieved. It is common knowledge by now that that everything is not right in the MOD and cleaning up will be in the interest of the Nation. Hundreds of petitions in Armed Forces Tribunals prove that many complainants are not satisfied with the decisions of the MOD. Therefore I recommend viewing the Chief’s case with an open mind.

Whether the general was born in 1950 or 1951 is of no importance to National Security. Nor why has the General taken a stand on the case. What is amazing is the procrastination of the MOD, over so many years.

As far as we know (based on published information) the General had entered 1950 as his year of birth in the UPSC application, but all his certificates such as birth, Matriculation, and others show his year of birth as 1951. He could not have gone through three years training at NDA without producing his essential certificates. Based on the documentary evidence he has been asking the Army HQ to amend his date of birth which has not been done. Why?

The UPSC rules take Matriculation or equivalent certificates as authority for the date of birth. So what is the problem in his case? Let us say the matriculation certificate had shown 1949 as the Year of birth, would the Army HQ and MOD have ignored the certificates? Why have they ignored the certificates in this case, and for so long? Had there been a doubt about the certificates they should have rejected these and taken action against the officer for manipulating documents; or they should have accepted his certificates. They cannot take 40 years to reject his certificates.

A most interesting comment by the Defence Minister is that the general was approved to be Lt Gen with the year of birth as 1950. I thought suitability was assessed on professional competence, character qualities and past performance. Had his recorded date been 1951 would he have been found unfit for promotion? How absurd? yet revealing! Was Gen VK Singh promoted to be Chief or only a stop gap Chief who had to retire in 2012, making way for the MOD candidate?][/i][/color][/color][/color]

Let us clarify one thing. Does the Govt do a favour to an individual by promoting him? Or are promotions necessary for the functioning of the Army? Should the selection not be purely on merit, based on performance?

Another interesting comment is that the change of date of birth will affect the succession line up. Who has decided the line up? And when was it decided? This shows the succession line up was decided when Gen VK Singh was still a Major General and the successor had possibly just taken over a Division. His Division commanders’ reports could not have been even written, leave alone evaluated at that stage. In other words the candidate was approved to be the next chief even before he had commanded a division successfully. The public should know one has to command a division, a Corps and an Army, all successfully, before being considered for the appointment of the next Chief.

The public must ask - is it normal to select the chiefs even before they finish command of divisions?? Or was it done only in this case? If so why? The Hon’ble RM says VK Singh’s last three promotions were based on date of birth being 1950. What about six promotions before that? Were they based on his being 1951? Astonishing!


A press report says Gen VK Singh gave a certificate that the issue of date of birth would not be raised by him again. Why was the certificate taken? No such certificate is taken from officers at the time of any promotion. Why was it taken from VK Singh? If the MOD apprehended ‘danger’ of the General raising the issue why did they not take a decision and announce the approved date, instead of asking the officer not to raise the issue? The rat can be smelled miles away. Why did the MOD decide to sweep it under the carpet rather than take the bull by the horns? Don’t they have documentary evidence to support their case?

Now that the General has put up his case why are they afraid to let law take its course? Why should the MOD try and malign the General, through motivated media reports? There are dozens of capable Army Commanders and Corps Commanders who retire. What is so special about the successor this time? If the MOD candidate retires will the Army not have a Chief? Or will any other Army Commander be less competent? These political games are not good for the armed forces. The system must be clean and transparent.

People are well aware of the inability of the Ministry of Home Affairs to handle the internal threats. The Army is the last pillar on which the Nation depends when situations go out of civilian control. Why is the Defence Ministry trying to destroy the fabric of this organisation?

Whether the present Chief should or should not have put up a complaint is another matter. People have different views, and we should respect all views. But to say it sends a wrong message to the rank and file is deliberately misleading the public. Who has found how much it matters to the rank and file? The MOD? or the very reliable Intelligence agencies whose reputation is too well known? The rank and file as well as junior officers know their senior officers very well by now! The only people affected are those deeply involved in the battle of succession. Many of them are not soldiers.

If there is any feeling it would be about the bungling by the MOD. Take any poll, ask any number of officers and men what they feel regarding the MOD and you would know. That is why they keep the Services gagged. Allow the Service officers to speak to the Media and you would soon know the truth.

There are some who say Gen VK Singh should resign. It is easy to preach. What did Gen Thimayya gain by resigning; for himself or for the Army? No! Gen VK Singh must stay and fight not just for himself but to expose the misdeeds of the MOD; if he has a strong case. There should be no question of quitting half way or of turning back.

On the other hand should Gen VK Singh be found guilty of manipulation of documentary evidence exemplary punishment would be in order. Surely he would know that and would not have put up a case unless he was on terra firma.

Should the MOD continue their dirty tricks of leaking stories based on half truths, the Chief and his staff must respond with full vigour. The ultimate need for the sake of the country is to clean up the system. Who gains or loses is too minor for the Nation.


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