Indian Army: News & Discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Oct 2011 22:16

excellent news. even better news would be a dedicated amphib regiment on the lines of mech inf regiment.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Oct 2011 22:24

^^Rahul M garu, won't the newly created RAMFOR division comprise units equivalent to several regiments? I am a little fuzzy about this. I am going by layman calculation of 1 division (10000 troops) == 3-4 regiments.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Oct 2011 22:45

^^ Unlike the US, regiments are not field formations in India, but rather a training organization that provides battalions to field formations like brigades and divisions. A division has 3-4 brigades (3000 men) and each brigade 3-4 battalions (600-900 men). I am not sure of the exact numbers, an army wallah could help you here.

As battalions rotate through 54 div, they'll gain amphibious warfare experience.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Oct 2011 22:46

^^Thanks for clearing that up.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2011 22:56

Wasn't 54 supposed to be an air mobility division during Gen Sunderji's days?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Oct 2011 23:02

it is as TS says with the exception of armoured regiments, which are equivalent to battalions of infantry in org structure. RAMFOR for example is said to consist of 3 brigades which would under normal circumstances be made up of 3 battallions (not regiments) each.

this should help you understand why I mentioned the mech inf.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... nised.html

jai · Post by **jai** » 21 Oct 2011 02:27

[quote="nits"]IAF goofs, reveals Army border sites in tender

The helipads belong to Army. The IAF had no business revealing their location, without Army approval - Army is justified in getting hopping mad.

Close on heals of Army asking for its own air wing, IAF grumbling, the PM asking the two to kiss and make up, this does not make for pleasant reading. If this was a goof up, some senior heads in IAF should roll. After all, Army needed to approve this release if this was about Army assets, as surely AF would not like Army to comment on any matters that IAF considered below public scrutiny threshold, location coordinates included. Matters of national security can not have two different thresholds for two different forces and no one is allowed to assume in this case. IAF can not assume that these are public knowledge.

If anything, this bolsters Army's case for its own transport airwing as AF is renting Helis as they do not have their own and sending out coordinates to all sensitive locations as well. I just hope they do not hire some Ukraine based transporters or the north Korean AF retiree mercenaries to fly army stuff to Cheena border next. Antony needs to look into this.

Time IAF should transfer 2/3rds of all its transport - rotary and fixed wing to Army who in any case is the end user. IMO, given the terrain that it fights in, Army does need a flying ASC ( Army Supply Core) to do its job in North/North east and south (A & N). If the transfer is unacceptable to the IAF purists, at least transfer of these assets to a joint transport command under the operational command of Army is definitely required - the circus needs to stop in the interests of national security.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Oct 2011 10:32

ramana wrote:Wasn't 54 supposed to be an air mobility division during Gen Sunderji's days?

Oh! that was typical of General Sundarji. He announced the converstion of division with-out assets in place. Yes, the Army Plan 2000 called for 2 Arimobile divisions and MOD/GOI signed on the plan but as we know, nothing came of it.

Coming to this amphibious division thing - my guess is that we will have one brigade each on the eastern and western sea-board. A brigade is already in Trivandrum and another from the 54ID would be placed to take to seas from Vishakhapatnam. 54 ID would provide the higher HQ for the assembled force for any such out-of-area contigency.

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 21 Oct 2011 13:29

rohitvats wrote:
ramana wrote:Wasn't 54 supposed to be an air mobility division during Gen Sunderji's days?
Oh! that was typical of General Sundarji. He announced the converstion of division with-out assets in place. Yes, the Army Plan 2000 called for 2 Arimobile divisions and MOD/GOI signed on the plan but as we know, nothing came of it.

Coming to this amphibious division thing - my guess is that we will have one brigade each on the eastern and western sea-board. A brigade is already in Trivandrum and another from the 54ID would be placed to take to seas from Vishakhapatnam. 54 ID would provide the higher HQ for the assembled force for any such out-of-area contigency.

^^^ I think the conversion of 54 ID was expected since the trivandrum based brigade started amphibious operations training.
54 ID is part of Sudarshan Chakra corps and in the past there were news that 21 corps will be the one that will take up any onsite assignment(IT language)

.. Good move by Army..

Blue water navy with 3 CBG + one amphibious corps.. what an idea sirjee..(just my dream)

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 21 Oct 2011 14:45

rajeshks wrote: Blue water navy with 3 CBG + one amphibious corps.. what an idea sirjee..(just my dream)

Having a corps dedicated to amphibious capability is highly out of question at least in the near future due to high capital costs for required assets especially amphibious assault ships. But India can look at a corps strength Expeditionary force with:
1) Division strength marines with the capability to deploy and sustain a Brigade
2) Division strength paratroopers with the capability to deploy and sustain a Brigade
3) Air Assault division with integral helicopter assets (separate from the assets needed for Mountain Strike Corps and other Infantry units); with the capability to deploy and sustain at least 2 brigades.

And above aim should be within the next 15-20 years. JMHO.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 21 Oct 2011 15:38

rohitvats wrote:
ramana wrote:Wasn't 54 supposed to be an air mobility division during Gen Sunderji's days?
Oh! that was typical of General Sundarji. He announced the converstion of division with-out assets in place. Yes, the Army Plan 2000 called for 2 Arimobile divisions and MOD/GOI signed on the plan but as we know, nothing came of it.

The full implications of the Vietnam War (US Army lost 5000+ helos), the Soviet-Afghan War (300+), and the Pakistani acquisition of large stocks of MANPADS and other Point-Air-Defense systems duing the later war, all made the Indian Army rethink the concept of large AA and AB formations. For the type of actions India fights, it is more useful to have 12-18 Air Assault battalions distributed over many Corps HQs and some with Army HQ, than all of them concentrated in two Divisions.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Oct 2011 16:24

ParGha wrote: The full implications of the Vietnam War (US Army lost 5000+ helos), the Soviet-Afghan War (300+), and the Pakistani acquisition of large stocks of MANPADS and other Point-Air-Defense systems duing the later war, all made the Indian Army rethink the concept of large AA and AB formations. For the type of actions India fights, it is more useful to have 12-18 Air Assault battalions distributed over many Corps HQs and some with Army HQ, than all of them concentrated in two Divisions.

I concur completely, sir. The kind of action that we are going to face, geography of battlefield, depth of enemy territory and length of border/LOC all dictate that we have battalion level or at the maximum, brigade level assets controlled by Corps HQ.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 21 Oct 2011 17:03

^^^ IMO above should not apply to Mountain Strike Corps and amphibious force. Both need extensive vertical envelopment capabilities. Also helpful on the Myanmar front (if ever needed) for deep jungle penetration. So we are looking at helicopter assets along the lines of;
1) MSC - integral assets (atleast 2 brigades worth??)
2) Amphibious force - integral assets (atleast 1-2 battalions worth for a Brigade??)
3) General purpose AAC assets for rotating around supplies and deploying/ sustaining the distributed light infantry battalions across other HQs as suggested by ParGha ji.

What about having a dedicated Air Assault Brigade as HQ reserve? Similar to the 50 Ind Para Brigade?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Oct 2011 19:01

to have even one brigade of this ID capable of operating like the USMC does we will likely need
- 2 new LPD of mistral/juan carlos size
- some LCAC & LST to fill them up
- a fleet of around 30 medium lift maritime helos
- around 20 naval gunship helis
- one command and control ship

we have none of the above at present!r

- one regiment worth of heavy tanks
- two regiment of light tanks
- a heavy complement of artillery and WLR
- utility helis
- a mobile ATC and corps of engineers with civil engg eqpt to setup/repair jetties and airfields
- lots of amphibious IFVs and wheeled transports

play expeditionary USMC is a costly business esp against the stout oppn we can expect at biteable target points on the paki mainland.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Oct 2011 20:23

question is - what is a "marine" division required to do for us?
1. invade pakistan - plenty of argumements made above for why not
2. police IOR islands - probably; equipment for this is slightly different - but still needs a lot of what singha lists

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 21 Oct 2011 20:52

tsarkar wrote:As battalions rotate through 54 div, they'll gain amphibious warfare experience.

tsarkar,

Isn't it better for the Navy raise its own Marine Corps? For many - no, most - Army officers, "Amphibious Operations" means crossing rivers and canals - particularly to the West. I am sure they can learn, and they have learnt, sea warfare quite quickly, but it is lost when they rotate back to land-focused warfare. If you need to have truly seaborne forces, a cadre dedicated to marine warfare and completely wedded to its lifeline (Navy) is imperative.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Oct 2011 20:56

Think SCS also.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Oct 2011 21:48

Indo-French Army Exercise Shakti – 11 concludes

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Oct 2011 22:00

Pargha, that's why a permanent amphib rgt is needed if army is to hold on to those skills, rotating battalions won't make sense. I am not sure of the need for navy to raise a marine just because that's what everyone else does. land warfare is what army is good at and they will find it easier to create a full fledged marine than navy who have no experience in the matter.

coming to the article, I have a question. it says

They said majority of the work in converting the Division into an amphibious formation was carried out under present Commandant of the Army War College Lt Gen Anil Chait.The Army has already raised three brigades to carry out the amphibious operations. Of the three, one is based in South India, another in West India and the third in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

are these brigades under the 54 ID itself ? because a div with its assets spread over 1000's of km does not make sense.
ideally there would be at least 2 semi-independent amphib brigades (with its own organic artillery, armour and helos) on the west coast, possibly under a div HQ, a similar formation in A&N and one bde on the east coast. plus the sealift needed to move these assets

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Oct 2011 01:43

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bZJnssvJztY/T ... 705467.JPG

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Oct 2011 09:10

Rahul M wrote: coming to the article, I have a question. it says
They said majority of the work in converting the Division into an amphibious formation was carried out under present Commandant of the Army War College Lt Gen Anil Chait.The Army has already raised three brigades to carry out the amphibious operations. Of the three, one is based in South India, another in West India and the third in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

The south Amphi is based in Pangode. Brigadier Pradeep Narayanan takes command of Pangode Military Station

If you remember, folks went gaga over Sarangs participating in slithering ops and I said that its a routine practice. This is the place.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 22 Oct 2011 10:03

SaiK wrote:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bZJnssvJztY/T ... 705467.JPG

that french person in centre with long hair, is that a he or she?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Oct 2011 10:05

looks like a 'she' to me atleast. could be a senior officer or a PR/medical officer.

not sure why they are wearing chef baker caps though.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Oct 2011 10:47

That is classic renaissance heardwear.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Oct 2011 10:55

Singha wrote:looks like a 'she' to me atleast. could be a senior officer or a PR/medical officer.

not sure why they are wearing chef baker caps though.

The troops are from the Chasseurs Alpins - the French Alpine (or Mountain) Infantry. The beret is typical of them. Them are specialized mountain warfare troops. Many European countries (which share parts of Alps) have there version of mountain infantry - with the German Gebirgsjager being the most famous.

Because these are small bodies of men, the training can be specialized and more thorough.

French Chasseurs Alpins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasseurs_Alpins
German Gebirgsjager: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebirgsj%C3%A4ger

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 22 Oct 2011 18:17

Set up Himalayan regiment, says Dhumal

New Delhi: Himachal Pradesh Chief Minister Prem Kumar Dhumal Saturday requested the central government to set up a Himalayan regiment in the Indian Army comprising youth from the hill states.

“India faces a major military threat from neighbouring China and the Indian Army should be made fully capable of fighting in the tough hilly terrain,” he said at the National Development Council meeting here.

“For this, a separate Army regiment drawn from the youths of hilly areas should be set up so that the soldiers are fully conversant with tough topography of the region.”

He asked the central government to make suitable provision in the 12th Plan.
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allocation of additional funds to the education and health sectors, Dhumal said: “The Congress-led United Progressive Alliance government had promised allocation of six percent and three percent of gross domestic product (GDP) during the 2009 general elections but this commitment remains unfulfilled even by the end of this Plan.”

He asked the central government to formulate a land use policy and demanded that a draft should clearly mention that all scarce natural resources be bought and sold through auction only.

On promotion of tourism in the hilly state, the chief minister demanded setting up of an all-weather international airport in the state during the 12th Plan.

He also demanded subsidised heli-taxi services in the tribal areas during winter, for the locals and the tourists, on the pattern of north-eastern states.

Tourism is an important contributor to Himachal Pradesh’s economic development, besides horticulture and hydro-power generation.

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 22 Oct 2011 19:41

Rahul M wrote:Pargha, that's why a permanent amphib rgt is needed if army is to hold on to those skills, rotating battalions won't make sense. I am not sure of the need for navy to raise a marine just because that's what everyone else does. land warfare is what army is good at and they will find it easier to create a full fledged marine than navy who have no experience in the matter.

I think one of the units in trivandrum is always from Madras regiment(i need to confirm this). They have a lot of historical connections also. In such a scenario after few rotations a good number of units from madras regiment will be amphib trained. Also the Madras regiment TA battalion is based in Kannur Fort(in beach), an ideal place to train.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 22 Oct 2011 21:08

Rahul M wrote:I am not sure of the need for navy to raise a marine just because that's what everyone else does. land warfare is what army is good at and they will find it easier to create a full fledged marine than navy who have no experience in the matter.

I think this is a tough one for where India is. Should the skills and warfare capabilities that a marine force needs that is most overlapping with the army win the day or does the supply and logistics chain and even air support that such a marine force would depend upon have organizational control over such a force.

The best of all worlds would be joint operations planning, commonality of equipment between forces, overlapping training centers, if these were to be true in India then I would tend to say the Navy should have organization control for any amphibious venture by definition should be under their command. Anyways let us first get a full time amphibious force trained and equipped first. Were there not some news reports that the army plans to have such a force of about 5,000 personnel?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Oct 2011 23:15

ParGha wrote:Isn't it better for the Navy raise its own Marine Corps? For many - no, most - Army officers, "Amphibious Operations" means crossing rivers and canals - particularly to the West. I am sure they can learn, and they have learnt, sea warfare quite quickly, but it is lost when they rotate back to land-focused warfare. If you need to have truly seaborne forces, a cadre dedicated to marine warfare and completely wedded to its lifeline (Navy) is imperative.

Marines originated to repel boarders, provide rifle-fire during enagements while sailors operated the ships, land men in shore to protect watering parties and man forts in distant lands.

Our first amphibious operations - Cox Bazar - had navymen as path finders & scouts. Even today MARCOS are clearance divers, and they provided that service in Sri Lanka.

Typically, in an amphibious operation like D-Day or Cox Bazaar, the Omaha beach landing is a one day affair while the actual fighting is a 30 day affair.

The specialized tasks - like scouting, recce, clearance, pathfinding - can be done by MARCOS, and the landing ships manned by the Navy, but the troops should be Army. Because once the landing has been affected, the fighting is essentially an Army operation.

Similar to airborne ops, where troops are army, and after the initial landing, everything else is regular army ops, and they need to maintain cohesiveness with the rest of the army organization (signal, sappers, engineers, arty etc).

Navy wont be able to exactly and effectively replicate the army organization and its not efficient to duplicate.

US is an aberration, and they have money to soak the abberation.

Rahul M wrote:Pargha, that's why a permanent amphib rgt is needed if army is to hold on to those skills, rotating battalions won't make sense.

Operation Meghdoot used a Kumaon Battalion that was heli-dropped. The brigade at Siachen even today is completely air supplied and all its personnel inducted and de-inducted via helicopters. Just like its not necessary that a Para Btn is required for every Heli-bourne op, similarly amphibious brigade doesnt need fully dedicated Btn.

After all, even D-Day used all Army troops because USMC was fully committed in the Pacific. The landing is a one time affair and typically not repeated in the near future.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 23 Oct 2011 00:20

^^^^

The above is fine if the aim of the marine brigade is to make a one time amphibious jump on Balouch shores

. But, if we are to take the role of providing security to IOR island states then we need to see what the US did in the pacific rather than D-Day. In this scenario i think a dedicated amphib rgmt will be an asset JMHO.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 23 Oct 2011 00:47

In Defence of Republic of India.

Deadlier war doctrine

Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times
New Delhi, October 16, 2011

Fundamental changes have been made in India’s war doctrine after the military restructured its fighting capacities, with the aim of waging all future battles in enemy territory. The new concept was discussed in tri-services Commanders' Conference last week. It will be used during military exercises in south Pokhran this winter.

Top government sources said learning the brutal lesson from Kargil war of fighting within Indian territory, the new doctrine is actually a step ahead of 'Cold War Start' concept, with scope only for aggression and not passive resistance.

The Cold Start concept was developed post Operation Parakram in 2002, with designated groups prepared to go into war theatre from the word go without long drawn out preparations.

During the October 10-14 Senior Commanders' Conference, top army commanders discussed the “restructuring of pivot and strike corps” and theatre-based “combat support and combat service support.”

In common parlance, this means that the army has done away with the concept of holding (defensive) and strike (offensive) corps level formations.

Under the new scheme of things to come, holding corps have been re-designated as pivot corps with the task to secure objectives in enemy territory and lay the foundation for launching strike formations.

For example, the Bathinda-based X Corps will no longer hold the intruding enemy but launch across to build a platform for strike by the designated II Corps in Ambala.

Each formation would have pre-designated support structures, including air support, so that the battle group would function with synergy rather than last minute creations.

This in military parlance has been described as theatre-based combat support and combat services support. The new concept was used Vijayee Bhava exercise last May with the army and air force enacting the land-air battle plans. It is going to be tested again in Sudarshan Shakti exercise this winter, 75 miles off the India-Pakistan border in Rajasthan.

Keeping the changing Indian war strategy in mind, the Pakistan army has also developed a counter strategy called the “Early War Offensive.” This means that 25% of its army reserves will be deployed on the eastern border to take on the Indian offensive at the first sign of war.

The Chinese PLA has upgraded its forces on the Line of Actual Control through technology and equipment enhancement and the capacity to deploy through huge infrastructure in Tibet.

With China-Pakistan theatres now linked up, the Indian army’s proposal for raising first mountain strike corps has been sent to the finance ministry for approval. The armed forces have asked the UPA for early decision as forces have to be raised through recruitment and purchase of military hardware.

rohitvats ji,would be great to hear your thoughts on this.
TIA

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Oct 2011 00:57

^^ Even the rotating battalions of the Andaman brigade are moved around in LCUs. There is some learning every time a new Btn is inducted, but that is the purpose of the the Division & Brigade staff. I believe new equipment will be made available to the Brigades similar to the Siachen Brigade, where the equipment is static and the men/units rotate.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Oct 2011 01:02

^^^Will reply in detail in some time.

But please save the above article for sake of reference and posterity. Read it in detail. This is the best commentary (so far) on the changes in Indian war-fighting effort...if you have access to old article on IA war-games, read them again in the back-drop of the above article. Suddenly lot of things will make more sense. For example, do people remember the exercise about II Corps mobilizing a combat group in 48hours? Or, the recent article on Sudarshan Shakti exercise by 21 Corps? I'm posting the article on the latter. Please read the same in context of the article above about new war-fighting doctrine:

Troops of the Southern Army have started arriving in the desert for their annual training exercises. The training will culminate in a major exercise, Sudarshan Shakti, in November-December to validate the operational preparedness of the Southern Army in a tri-service environment. Exercise Sudarshan Shakti will be based on the Integrated Theatre Battle concept under the Southern Army Commander, Lt Gen AK Singh, with 21 Corps in the lead, supported by all other relevant elements of Southern Army. The exercise will commence with a series of small team actions, subsequently moving up in the command chain, culminating in large scale manoeuvres under GOC 21 Corps.

A press release issued by the Southern Command said, “The exercise thus envisages, innovative manoeuvres, in a simulated battle environment, by composite combat entities, ably supported by air and complemented by a wide array of force multipliers and enabling logistics. The Southern Army is working towards a capability-based approach based on a series of transformational initiatives spanning, concepts, organisational structures and absorption of new age technologies in the fields of precision munitions, advance surveillance systems, space and network-centricity, under the overall guidance provided by the transformational study of the IA, for which the Army Chief and the Southern Army Commander were the main proponents.”

The unique feature of the exercise will be the jointsmanship between the Southern Army and its counterparts in the IAF and Indian Navy, the release said.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2011 10:23

I like the fact they are active from Nov to Dec this year itself while the TSPA is facing US heat.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 23 Oct 2011 11:14

Any news on the reduction of troops from Kashmir? There has been a strong voice for reduction of troops from non-disturbed/relatively peaceful areas and withdrawing of AFSPA from those places. Any discussion on it? If there was one, I missed it, so apologies. But defies me, how is it going to help, won't terrorists again find safe havens again? And has it been approved?

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 23 Oct 2011 15:21

IA helicopter lands in POK
4 soldiers in PAK custody

partha · Post by **partha** » 23 Oct 2011 15:26

AdityaM wrote:IA helicopter lands in POK
4 soldiers in PAK custody

made to force land as per the news reports. NDTV says strayed due to bad weather.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 Oct 2011 16:15

Is this going to cause some consternation!
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 565007.ece

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 23 Oct 2011 16:33

they are going to de-brief our soldiers..

i hope it is civilised. else i hope we do a IDF on them...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Oct 2011 16:42

Indian Army helicopter lands in Pakistan controlled Skardu