Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Pranav
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Pranav » 08 Dec 2011 09:09

Shiv wrote:Indian leaders are like Indian people and Indian people are like Indian leaders.


Not true. Some 90% of Indian people support Anna Hazare whereas for Indian leaders the percentage is close to 0.

Edit: OT here, also posted at viewtopic.php?p=1208048#p1208048

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 08 Dec 2011 10:13

Sanju wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Gentlemen,

Ravi Rikhye from Orbat.Com has written a book on IA Orbat called "Indian Army Order of Battle".

It is available online at amazon in paperback or e-book form (kindle edition). Please check here:http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Order-Battle-Richard-Rinaldi/dp/0982054173. It is all for USD 20 or USD 7.

I have a soft copy of the book and can assure you that it is an excellent source of orbat (all from public sources) along with a fair bit of history (and interesting tid-bits). I would reccomend the same. It is a good primer on the subject.


Rohitvats, It would be good if you review the book on the Amazon site as people do look at the reviews before purchasing it.


OK. Good idea. Will try and do the same over the weekend.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 08 Dec 2011 22:32

ramana wrote:Shrinivasan,
I guess you haven't read the news report. Please do so and it will be self evident.

Ramana, I defitinetly read the article from Hindu, are you saying, MMS would never approve of this transformational doctrine as it implies an overtly aggressive/ever ready to attack posture? If so then I disagree, for all the Piss Process, there has been a steady arming of the IA and the IAF. Only time can tell... I still feel that MMS wouls take our armed forces couple of notches higher during his tenure, we jingos obviouly want more, the bleeding hearts want "Aman ki Tamasha"

Let us wait and Watch... So far so good miles to go!!!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Bolasani » 09 Dec 2011 21:17

Indian Army not to hire men with tattoos

The Indian Army will not recruit men with permanent tattoos anywhere on the body, save the arms. The Army says permanent tattoos are health hazard, as they can act as carriers for certain diseases.


Brigadier Vinod Raizada, Deputy Director General, Recruiting, Jalandhar Cantonment, said, "We have instructions since November that any person with tattoos anywhere on the body, except for the arms, cannot be recruited in the Indian Army."

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby member_20069 » 09 Dec 2011 23:35

shiv wrote:
SBHALLA wrote:
Was Zia bluffing or Porkis had capability in 1986?

If we chickened for this reason where in the world are we going to conduct any punitive action in present and in the future if there is any provocative action from across the border whether by state actors or non state actors given the fact they do now have established nuclear deterrent. It is ironic Porkis always bark and threaten to bite even if we dream of teaching them lesson and in case of China we chicken out at a mere growl, where as despite all provocations from both eastern and western frontiers we don't even snarl at them, let alone bite or even bark back at them. We have made historical mistakes when we could have corrected the course at least with Pakistan when we had a chance for present and future generations.


There is plenty of publicly available material on this - I have much of it archived on my HDD and I looked them up before posting this. By 1982 China had already shipped bomb grade Uranium and weapons designs to Pakistan. A Pakistani Defence Journal paper points out that between 1983 and 1990 Pakistan had conducted more than 20 cold tests and had test dropped nukes from F-16s.

From my personal viewpoint language like "growls" snarls" "chicken" etc are useful tools to communicate feelings, but ultimately I have still not figured out why it is bad to fear a nuclear attack or nuclear war. Would one be "snarling" if one issues a nuclear threat. Would one be chicken by avoiding nuclear war? I ask these questions seriously - but the questions come with a sting - I am ready to tear apart anyone who can justify the use of expressions like "snarl" growl and chicken while talking of nuclear war and still make sense after I am done with tearing up the arguments.

In my personal experience a large number of comments about Indian reactions to China and Pakistan are based on a fundamental feeling held by a large number of Indians that India is first and foremost a weak nation, and secondly incompetent and corrupt to boot.

I am not saying that this belief is wrong. Let me accept that India is weak, corrupt and incompetent. But hearing that from hundreds of Indian hundreds of times is what gets my goat. Do educated Indians believe that nobody else knows? Do they believe that constantly comparing China with a tiger and India with a chicken actually helps? Why do Indians keep on repeating the same well known well accepted and widely recognized stuff about Indian weakness? It this constant repetition with no realization that most educated people in India already know also a sign of fundamental Indian lack of insight? Do Indian have to tell each other for ever that India is weak when that has been perfectly clear to Indians for decades? Or does every Indian who gets an education believe that only he and he alone knows that India is weak and that he must announce that to the world like Archimedes jumping out from a bath shouting "Eureka"?

Are Indians really so dumb that they cannot go one step beyond pointing out that Indians behave weak? I have seen this for over 20 years and I have also seen young Indians claim that they will change. Those young Indian are now middle aged and I see them sitting on their asses saying the same things they said 20 years ago while the youngsters of today are saying "India is weak" like its some new discovery they have made.

Fact: India is weak. Or at least a lot of Indians claim that it is weak and love talking about it as if only they know
Fact: No Indian is able to do anything about it other than saying "India is weak". Few Indians are even able to analyse reasons for Indian weakness or perceived weakness. Blind belief in Indian weakness. There is no God but God and weakness is his name.

After decades of observing this I can make one more observation about Indians. They are often repetitive bores who are unable to step out of the box they have somehow gotten themselves in. The "solutions" offered to Indian weaknesses are always what other Indians are supposed to do, but no one is actually able to implement those solution, because other Indians are incorrigible Who is the incompetent guy then? We are all part of this round table of incompetent bums. I am in it too. Not "other Indians".

Maybe we just need to look at the world a little differently. We are weak. Weak nations also survive like weak people survive. We just happen to have a lot more weak, incompetent and cowardly people than anyone else, that's all. Once we know what we have it gets easier to say what we can do and what we can't. Too much time is wasted in thinking that "someone else in India is weak. I am not weak. Let people like me/Sardar Patel rule". It ain't gonna happen. No point putting the cart before the horse. Most indians are weak cowards and that is why our rulers and the country is like this.


I agree any sane nation will not allow situation to stoop to a level where nuclear conflict becomes reality. That said do we allow things as they are and they continue to bleed us? Point being what message have we given to our adversary/ies to date that if they have a policy of violence against us it would be met with a firm response. Are we the only ones to be scared of a nuclear conflict? Is there no one in their establishment who understands and realizes that we may take a hit or two what after that? Problem is we haven't learn' t our lessons from history, when we could close Kashmir with Pakistan in 1971 we did not do then. Even now we don't have a consistent policy towards them. Left to me I would constitute a separate department in the Government that has one job and only one job and i.e. to deal with Pakistan in which ever way it is good for our country. This department should have people from HM, DEF, FO and other fields that is relevant to them when dealing with Pakistan. If they want to be friends lets walk in that direction, if "Laato Ke Bhoot Baato Se Nahi Mante" then hit them where it hurts them most. Support Baluchistan insurgency to the hilt as they do in Kashmir, pay them back in the same coin and statements that we are only extending political support, let us also do the same thing. Set up a force trained in going deep in Pakistan and pick up / destroy human targets that we can otherwise not get hold off. Have a frank talk with the genrails that if you screw around with us, we will do what we can to destroy you overtly and covertly. The other day Imran Khan said that passions get inflamed when human rights are violated by Indian Forces, are human rights not being trampled upon in Baluchistan by Pakistani forces??

Look at the type of leadership we present when we talk with Pakistan, basically all Doves dealing with Hawks. Let's make the head of Pakistan department a Jat with a lathi in his hand and then talk to them :) We need aggressive posturing towards them to send a message we mean business.

All in all message should be LOUD and CLEAR.

Not an experienced person as you are, but thought I'll pitch in my 2 cents worth knowledge apart from my feelings.

Valuable input will be much appreciated.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Prabu » 10 Dec 2011 18:08


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Leo.Davidson » 10 Dec 2011 21:17

Bolasani wrote:Indian Army not to hire men with tattoos

The Indian Army will not recruit men with permanent tattoos anywhere on the body, save the arms. The Army says permanent tattoos are health hazard, as they can act as carriers for certain diseases.


Brigadier Vinod Raizada, Deputy Director General, Recruiting, Jalandhar Cantonment, said, "We have instructions since November that any person with tattoos anywhere on the body, except for the arms, cannot be recruited in the Indian Army."


Tattoos are a health hazard & carriers of certain diseases. REALLY, how ignorant these people are. Didn't know we had taliban in our chain of command.
Last edited by Rahul M on 11 Dec 2011 00:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ignorance and arrogance is a lethal combo. banned for a month.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2011 21:40

Leo.Davidson wrote:Tattoos are a health hazard & carriers of certain diseases. REALLY, how ignorant these people are. Didn't know we had taliban in our chain of command.


America talking again.The joke is on you brother. You don't know what you are talking about. In India there is no overall control over who does tattoos and how needles are sterilized. The risk of transmission of highly infectious diseases like Hepatitis B and C is high. HIV transmission is also a possibility.

Ignorance is being passed off in a pompous critical bout of blather.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 10 Dec 2011 22:24

shiv

little confused from a medical perspective

Cant they test for whatever disease before they come in??

and ban people from getting once they are in as long as they are in service??

Leo

you seriously need to post less,

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2011 22:33

SBHALLA wrote:I agree any sane nation will not allow situation to stoop to a level where nuclear conflict becomes reality. That said do we allow things as they are and they continue to bleed us? Point being what message have we given to our adversary/ies to date that if they have a policy of violence against us it would be met with a firm response. Are we the only ones to be scared of a nuclear conflict? Is there no one in their establishment who understands and realizes that we may take a hit or two what after that? Problem is we haven't learn' t our lessons from history, when we could close Kashmir with Pakistan in 1971 we did not do then. Even now we don't have a consistent policy towards them. Left to me I would constitute a separate department in the Government that has one job and only one job and i.e. to deal with Pakistan in which ever way it is good for our country. This department should have people from HM, DEF, FO and other fields that is relevant to them when dealing with Pakistan. If they want to be friends lets walk in that direction, if "Laato Ke Bhoot Baato Se Nahi Mante" then hit them where it hurts them most. Support Baluchistan insurgency to the hilt as they do in Kashmir, pay them back in the same coin and statements that we are only extending political support, let us also do the same thing. Set up a force trained in going deep in Pakistan and pick up / destroy human targets that we can otherwise not get hold off. Have a frank talk with the genrails that if you screw around with us, we will do what we can to destroy you overtly and covertly. The other day Imran Khan said that passions get inflamed when human rights are violated by Indian Forces, are human rights not being trampled upon in Baluchistan by Pakistani forces??

Look at the type of leadership we present when we talk with Pakistan, basically all Doves dealing with Hawks. Let's make the head of Pakistan department a Jat with a lathi in his hand and then talk to them :) We need aggressive posturing towards them to send a message we mean business.

All in all message should be LOUD and CLEAR.

Not an experienced person as you are, but thought I'll pitch in my 2 cents worth knowledge apart from my feelings.

Valuable input will be much appreciated.


Bhallaji I have several quibbles with your post, but let me start with events that I was witness to in an era when I was old enough to understand. You say:
Problem is we haven't learn' t our lessons from history, when we could close Kashmir with Pakistan in 1971 we did not do then.


Where did you get the impression that we could "close Kashmir" in 1971?

That apart are you confusing Pakistan bluster with being a hawk? Why do you believe that Indians should talk to Pakistanis like Hawks and not doves? Do you think India does that out of basic cowardice and dhoti shivering or are there other things, like US support that prevented us from being aggressive with Pakistan

One of the things that makes me really angry is how my educated indian compatriots choose to have a strange sort of "dual allegiance" for both America and India. Having dual allegiance for America and India makes it easy to imagine that the anti-India actions by the US from the 1950s right up to after 2000 were merely A superpower doing its thing and the US acting in its interest" while India's inability to handle Pakistan is only Indian incompetence, and cowardice.

The minute you shed any sympathy, admiration and allegiance towards America it is easier to see that America as a wealthy superpower has consistently acted to thwart and check India's freedom of action towards Pakistan at Pakistan's instance, in order to lick Paki ass and get Pakis to help them.

Unfortunately we are such great admirers of TFTA Americans and worship Americas greatness and are contemptuous towards our cowardly dhotis. This is a typical consequence of Indian Macaulayite education. In reality the TFTA Americans are Paki ass lickers who have done much to screw India's happiness and take Indian lives while they have been ROTFL at the way slobbering admiring Indians continue to admire them while blaming their own dhotis for being "cowardly" and not dealing with Pakistan. At least a part of dhoti cowardlness is because India has not been dealing with Pakistan alone, but Pakistan+ America, and at times Pakistan+America+China.

We have actually survived all that and are growing stronger. Why are we whining so much?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2011 22:47

Surya wrote:shiv

little confused from a medical perspective

Cant they test for whatever disease before they come in??

and ban people from getting once they are in as long as they are in service??


The diseases may be completely without symptoms and undetectable for months/years after the initial infection, they are incurable and often fatal.

There is a link between totally incurable hepatitis C and tattoos, and hepatitis B carriers pose a health hazard in the army. They can be more of a liability than an asset. For example they can never donate blood. India does not have the kind of powerful public health measures that the west has and this is linked to all the other things that we hate to discuss on BR that is water supply and sanitation (toilets) and recruitment is often from rural areas where public health measures are weak.

The problem is needles. Tattoos need needles and needles need to be sterile, single use and disposable. Now who checks for sterility of tattoo needles in India? Sterility is a big deal in hospitals requiring high quality control measures. No tattoo artist does that in India. The west may be different. Maybe they do have checks on tattoo places, but probably not

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 10 Dec 2011 23:55

Tattoos on arms dont propagate diseases and tattoos elsewhere do?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 11 Dec 2011 00:05

Its not the tattoos per se but the needles used to tattoo. And as Shiv sir, has so aptly put, in India there is no code for Quality/hygiene for the tattooing studios and hence have a high potential of transmitting dangerous pathogens..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 11 Dec 2011 00:09

So tattoo needles on arms dont propagate diseases. The same tattoo needles if used on other body parts propagate diseases.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 11 Dec 2011 00:12

actually tattoo 'studios' do have a certain level of awareness but the folk who turn up do not get their tattoos there. the rurual tattooist does his job on the road, under a tree in most cases, not in a studio. they also re-use needles.

but I have the same question as sudeep.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 11 Dec 2011 00:18

Tattoos on arms are a common thing in India (mostly religious symbols and such stuff) not sure if that is a factor though.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 11 Dec 2011 00:29

RahulDa,
I visited along with a friend to a high end tattoo studio in chennai, a couple of years ago. The tattooist was supposed to be some hotshot. But even that guy was not following basic hygiene protocols. Could have been an one-off case but it still is dangerous.

As for the needle, its just the same as the shaving razor blade at your barber or the hypodermic syringe used by your doctor. The needle, while tattooing comes in contact with blood of the person being tattooed. If the person is infected with Hep C, HIV, etc and if the needle is not sterilized properly then the next person on whom the needle is used gets the infection.

Shivji, Have I forgotten to mention anything???

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 11 Dec 2011 01:20

For those who had been following the Pune Command Hospital Case, I found this "last word" on it:

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2011/oct/05 ... ed-him.htm

Medicine supplier says Command Hospital cheated him
By: Vivek Sabnis
Date: 2011-10-05
Place: Pune

Claims defence officials harassing him, not clearing his dues

A Medicine wholesaler and distributor has alleged that the Command Hospital has cheated him. He claims defence officials have been harassing him and have not cleared his dues for a year. Kannan Nambiar, the medicine supplier, also said that even after having lodged a complaint with the Wanawadi police station in this regard, the police were not helping him in the case.


Nambiar said he now plans to approach anti-corruption crusader Anna Hazare and is thinking of filing a defamation suit in the sessions court for the sake of the reputation of his Chinchwad-based company.

"I have been blacklisted from the Command Hospital because I refused to give an extra commission of 10 per cent in advance for an air-conditioner and a refrigerator for getting the order and passing of bills. I have not been given any supply order since June 2010," Nambiar said. "I was also manhandled at the Command Hospital. No action was taken by the local Wanawadi police in spite of an NC being registered."

He added that a case filed by the CBI was pending in the sessions court. "On my complaint the CBI raided the Command Hospital on December 3, 2010. The CBI also filed a report with the Wanawadi police about the misconduct on the part of the hospital officials. The case filed by CBI is still pending before the sessions court in Pune," he said.

Nambiar said he had also filed an RTI query on the purchase of medicines from various suppliers, but it was rejected by the hospital. "My RTI application was denied by stating that the information was confidential and needs permission from the higher authorities," he said. A cheating case was also filed against Nambiar for allegedly furnishing a duplicate authorisation letter of a company.

"The company, however, confirmed to me that it was an authorised stockist," Nambiar said. Lt Col P Mohan, medical officer of the Command Hospital, had also filed a complaint with the Food and Drug Administration, Pune, charging Nambiar with supplying spurious drugs to Command hospital medical stores. "Drug Inspector R V Pongle, however, reported that the medicines were good quality," Nambiar said.

The other side
Major General Panwar rubbished Nambiar's charges. "Nambiar is trying to defame the hospital. There is not a single paisa pending of payment of bills. The FDA case is still going on as one of the drugs supplied by Nambiar was substandard and, therefore, he has been banned from supplying drugs to our hospital. There was no CBI raid, but they visited the hospital and found nothing," said Panwar. "We are government servants and answerable to court and the government. The case of forged documents is still pending." The Wanawadi police said Kannan was making baseless allegations after army officers filed a cheating case against him for forging documents. Police Inspector Bajirao Mohite, in-charge of Wanawadi police station, said: "Army officials have registered a case of cheating against Kannan for forging documents. We are in the process of submitting a chargesheet in this regard. Kannan's allegations that we did not act on his complaint are baseless. Firstly, he has not filed any complaint of manhandling against army officers recently"


Basically, Kannanji has been making baseless allegations because he was blacklisted. And now his goose is about to be cooked.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Reddy » 11 Dec 2011 05:46

negi wrote:Tattoos on arms are a common thing in India (mostly religious symbols and such stuff) not sure if that is a factor though.


Probably you are correct. I have seen traditional tattooing in my grandfather's village when i was a kid (late 70s). For men tattoos are invariably done on arm using some sort of leaf juice and normal needle. Needle is heated red hot before using it. Most importantly this was not done in a professional tattoo shop, the one i saw was done to one of our farm helpers by his friend (who done this sort of this few times before). Could be reason why army does not see this as a big threat. More over it they exclude people with traditional tattoo on the arm, there will be very few from my village who'll qualify for armed forces even today.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Dec 2011 07:25

Bala Vignesh wrote:RahulDa,
I visited along with a friend to a high end tattoo studio in chennai, a couple of years ago. The tattooist was supposed to be some hotshot. But even that guy was not following basic hygiene protocols. Could have been an one-off case but it still is dangerous.

As for the needle, its just the same as the shaving razor blade at your barber or the hypodermic syringe used by your doctor. The needle, while tattooing comes in contact with blood of the person being tattooed. If the person is infected with Hep C, HIV, etc and if the needle is not sterilized properly then the next person on whom the needle is used gets the infection.

Shivji, Have I forgotten to mention anything???


Shared nail clipper.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Dec 2011 07:35

sudeepj wrote:So tattoo needles on arms dont propagate diseases. The same tattoo needles if used on other body parts propagate diseases.

Sir this is absolute nonsense and I single it out because it touches upon two parts of my life that give me the most - my work as a surgeon and BRF. Anything that penetrates under the skin can pick up viruses and if not sterilised after that can inject the virus into anyone else's skin. The skin of the arm is no different from skin of the bum in this regard. Please DO not push or believe the crap you have written. And tattoo needles penetrate the skin.

Why are tattoos considered harmless?

Because the link between hepatitis and tattoos was unknown till medical research picked up the ink relatively recently. India has a huge number of Hepatitis B patients - Hep B is extremely infectious, more so than AIDS, Hep C is spread only by needles and is essentially incurable. You have a tattoo today and you are discovered to have hepatitis B or C after 4 years you will not even connect the tattoo with the disease.

And don't share nail clippers unless you are sure that the people who used them do not have Hepatitis or the AIDS virus.

And for the girls - watch out for the earring seller who allows women to try wearing earrings and reject them in his shop if they do not like them Earrings can pick up viruses from small scratches in pierced earlobes and transmit it to others.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 11 Dec 2011 08:08

shiv ji, sudeep made that comment because of this :

>> The Indian Army will not recruit men with permanent tattoos anywhere on the body, save the arms.

I too would like to know why tattoo on arms is allowed.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 11 Dec 2011 08:33

Rahul M wrote:shiv ji, sudeep made that comment because of this :

>> The Indian Army will not recruit men with permanent tattoos anywhere on the body, save the arms.

I too would like to know why tattoo on arms is allowed.


I think that is because in the rural areas in many parts of India, it is customary to get religious symbols, Gods' names, or children's own names tattooed on children's arms (back of palm, inside of lower arm etc). A lot of these areas are the traditional recruiting areas of the army. If you reject these people, you will severely disrupt recruitment.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 11 Dec 2011 08:58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCH6IWnAyU
I thought it was something robotic thing flying at 0:37ish. wow!

coming to think of large scale ground troupe against chippanda.. we do need battalion of reinforced army with robotic help that enhances the endurance of human fighting like powered stabilizers for joints to help run faster with least energy spent, etc.

there is no end what nano technology can support in the future for IA.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gurneesh » 11 Dec 2011 09:01

Question is that irrespective of where one gets the tattoo, if needle is bad it will transmit disease (as mentioned by Shiv sir).

So, what could be IA's rationale for allowing tattoos on only arms. Since those with tattoos on arms will form a major chunk of recruitment pool and thus will pose a bigger danger as far as diseases are concerned.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gurneesh » 11 Dec 2011 09:05

SaiK wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCH6IWnAyU
I thought it was something robotic thing flying at 0:37ish. wow!


Heh heh, that surely brings the dive analysis to a conclusion.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Dec 2011 09:23

Gurneesh wrote:Question is that irrespective of where one gets the tattoo, if needle is bad it will transmit disease (as mentioned by Shiv sir).

So, what could be IA's rationale for allowing tattoos on only arms. Since those with tattoos on arms will form a major chunk of recruitment pool and thus will pose a bigger danger as far as diseases are concerned.


Kakkaji's point may be right - but in addition we need information *which we Macaulayite city dwellers" do not have. The tattoo method used on the arms in Indian villages could theoretically be safe if it involves heating the needle to red heat and using a dye such as carbon (soot). Traditional Indian tattoos that I have seen are invariably black and I need to know how it is done before I can comment.

One thing you can be sure - the army is not being stupid. Many of us on here assume that an odd sounding decision made by Indians is out of stupidity and I will point that out every time I see that happening. Will ask my Unkal Googal and see if it throws up any info.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 11 Dec 2011 10:06

shiv, this kitab-e-chehare link has some detailed process descriptions of tattooing by TN koravas.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=5 ... topic=9386

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Dec 2011 10:49

SaiK wrote:shiv, this kitab-e-chehare link has some detailed process descriptions of tattooing by TN koravas.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=5 ... topic=9386

Dhanyawad Saik. Doesn't sound particularly safe to me, but it is possible that many of these arm tattoos are done in childhood so that anyone who actually gets infected will manifest with disease detectably by the time he gets to army selection. Since the army has been recruiting tattooed people for decades they will have statistics about how many were actually positive for Hepatitis and maybe a recent spurt has been noticed. In surgical conferences/meetings I find army docs very competent and knowledgeable in keeping with the standards maintained by the AFMC and army selection boards.

There is also a sociological phenomenon that I suspect the army is dealing with. Tattooing is becoming more popular in India nowadays with young people getting tattoos in a party or on an impulse. That is a formula for trouble in the Indian context.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 11 Dec 2011 11:20

Shiv Sir, you are a voice of reason midst the usual unga-bunga. Thanks for the interesting posts. Also, had no idea nail clippers could also be sources of infection!

About the tattoos on arms, they are a very common practice in rural India, and its quite possible that restricting them would restrict a large supply of troops. Also, there is merit in the idea that since they are usually done at a young age, any disease processes initiated by them would be fully apparent by the time of recruitment at 18-19.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 11 Dec 2011 11:34

shiv wrote:Shared nail clipper.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :shock: :shock: :shock:
If you don't mind me asking Shiv sir, could you explain how a nail clipper can act as a transmission medium like needles???
I ask this out of professional interest.
Sorry about the OT..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Dec 2011 12:15

Bala Vignesh wrote:
shiv wrote:Shared nail clipper.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :shock: :shock: :shock:
If you don't mind me asking Shiv sir, could you explain how a nail clipper can act as a transmission medium like needles???
I ask this out of professional interest.
Sorry about the OT..



Many people accidentally snip off some skin as they trim their nails too closely and cause a small cut. A little blood (may be invisible) and a few viruses can get on to the blades of the nail clipper then. You know you may have done that when your realize that your fingertip at the end of the nail is a little sore on the day you clip your nails. You may see no blood. The next person who uses the nail clipper will deposit that blood and virus load on his fingertips. If he manages to keep his skin intact - he is probably safe, but if he too cuts his skin just a bit he is vaccinating himself with the other guy's virus.

The actual virus load, the status of immunity etc have a bearing on whether the second guy actually gets infected or not - but you don't want to take that chance. If a surgeon pricks himself with a needle he is using on a patient with Hepatitis B, the chances of getting that disease are about 60 times higher than if he pricks himself with a needle contaminated with the AIDS virus because the Hep B virus is that much more virulent and also survives much better outside the body. I am certain the army inoculates all it boys with Hep A and B vaccines, and nowadays all children are inoculated too. I hope you guys have had your injections?

Here is a nice picture of bacteria on a pin. Viruses are smaller and many thousands/millions more can be present on a needle tip
Image

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Dec 2011 12:18

ASPuar wrote:Shiv Sir, you are a voice of reason midst the usual unga-bunga. Thanks for the interesting posts. any disease processes initiated by them would be fully apparent by the time of recruitment at 18-19.


I am certain that hepatitis/HIV screening is part of the medical tests that all boys have to undergo.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Dec 2011 12:31

indic girls tend to get tattoos on their shoulder, shoulder blade area, belly or just above their butt in the back. but mostly seems to some kind of temporary ink printing than a real needle based thing.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 11 Dec 2011 13:48

BRF is need of some serious military discipline. A large number of posts could have easily gone to the OT Dhaga, rather then staying on this thread. But what to do, when even the Bradmin follows the same practice. :((

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 11 Dec 2011 13:51

Wow even I was not aware of the nail clipper part; have shared it with college buddies and with friends on many a occasion.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Dec 2011 19:35


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 11 Dec 2011 22:11

What the fauj and parents taught me - from the Salute magazine
Nitin A. Gokhale

Last week, a friend in the Army, reacting to my latest documentary on the endless-and thankless-war that Indian soldiers fight in Kashmir, paid a heartfelt compliment by calling me a ‘soldier-journalist’. Flattered though I was for a moment, the remark also embarrassed me no end. For I have never donned the uniform. To me soldiering is the only profession in which men and women go beyond the call of duty and therefore deserve the highest respect in the society. To me soldiers are a breed apart. In my chosen profession of journalism, this attitude is regarded as partisan. Many feel I am blind to many sins of commission and omission that the armed forces personnel seem to indulge in these days.

The charge may be partially true but I am not ashamed about it mainly because our forces are still way above the rest of the society when it comes to upholding the values of honour, teamwork, professionalism, ethics and camaraderie. But let me also confess: the biggest reason for my soft corner for the forces comes from the fact that I too am a fauji kid and sub-consciously somewhere deep down I still live by a dictum one learnt as a kid: Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana (Do your duty to the best of your ability and don’t seek rewards).

When I look back, I realise that my father, who retired as a subedar major in 1982 and with him my mother, followed this practice in their daily life and passed it to us three brothers without making a song and dance about it. Throughout my 28-year career as a professional journalist, I have been fortunate that I could follow this principle without even realising that I was practicing what my father did all his professional life. Now, wiser and littlemore experienced than before, I am in a position to analyse some of the reasons behind the moderate success that each of us-three brothers-have managed to achieve in our respective professions.

Adaptability, my biggest strength, has been a second nature through our growing years thanks to the frequent transfers and constantly changing schools. In the 1960s and the 1970s, ordinary soldiers - and my father was one - had a tough life in the Indian Army. They lived far from their families, toiled hard for a pittance and yet possessed a dignity that is not found in an ordinary civilian. The soldier never complained, never whined and never expected anything in return for what he did. I changed eight schools in 10 years and studied in three different mediums - English, Marathi and Hindi before entering junior college in 1978. Sub-consciously, without ever preaching to us, our parents drilled a motto into us: “Take life as it comes.” And we did.

We met the challenges head on. I remember travelling from Pune to Lekhabali in Arunachal Pradesh by train in the late 1970s. It used to take us four days and five changes at Kalyan, Allahabad, Baruani, New Bongaigaon and Rangiya before we could reach the destination. Reservations were never confirmed. Dad was never with us.

One lived by one’s wits and survived. Frequent transfers meant frequent dislocations and packings. And unlike today, there were no movers and packers in those pre-liberalisation days. So we learnt to adapt.

To be responsible for our actions. Discipline and punctuality was given.

Colleagues laugh at me when I start getting uncomfortable if I am late for an appointment. They laugh at the fact that I sleep by 10 pm and up by 5.30 am. But I know no other way. I mentioned adaptability earlier. My parents not only taught us how to adapt and accept but also practiced the principle. The biggest proof is my being a journalist. In the summer of ’83, the world was at my feet as far as my parents were concerned.

I was selected to be a flying officer in the Indian Air Force. All that remained was for me to submit my
graduation certificate by June 30 and start my training in July. As luck would have it, my graduation results were delayed by over a month. So the dream of joining the Air Force was put on hold. I had six months to kill before I could appear for another round of combined defence services exam that December.

That’s when destiny dealt a decisive, and now in retrospect, a lucky blow. The Sentinel, a Guwahati based newspaper was just starting out and was looking for trainee journalists for their sports pages. Having played all games from kabaddi to squash and from kho-kho to cricket as a child, I thought with all the cockiness of the callow youth that I could become a sports journalist, at least for a while. So just for the heck of it, I appeared for the written test that the newspaper held.

Five days later, they called me for an interview. With no expectations, I went for the interview and landed a job at a princely sum of 700 rupees. I still remember the entire sequence in my head as if it happened just yesterday. At the end of the interview that fateful afternoon, the editor asked me, “When can you join?”

My answer was, “Whenever you want.” He said, “Can you join, tonight?”

And I agreed to join that very evening. Then I became a journalist.

Of course at that time, I had no inkling that I would stay the course. I was sure I would do the job for six months and then move on. But that was not to be. As I joined the paper and started picking up the nuances of the job, I felt at home. The thrill of being part of the team that put together a newspaper for the benefit of thousands of readers can only be experienced. It can never be described in words. The duty hours were erratic. One went to office at 2 pm and never returned home before 5 am. Three months down the line I decided to remain a journalist and not to pursue the aim of becoming a fighter pilot.

My parents were aghast and crestfallen. For a junior commissioned officer in the earlier 1980s, there was no greater honour than seeing his son becoming a commissioned officer. But like a true soldier, my father
accepted my decision without rancour. All that my parents said at that time was “Excel in whatever you choose to do.” So I stuck on in Assam.

My parents moved back to Pune soon after but again luck smiled on me. Neha married me in 1988 and
continued to encourage me to take risks with life and with career. Never ever complaining that I chose to take up risky assignments touring deep into north eastern states, reported the Kargil war, the Sri Lanka conflict, when I could have played safe and remained a desk bound journo. Today those risks have paid off. I can say with a bit of immodesty that I can compete with the best in business without feeling inferior.
The urge to do better than yesterday comes naturally to the men in uniform. If I behave that way even now, it is thanks to my upbringing in a military environment. Despite all its faults and foibles, the military remains a vital part of my life for whatever I am today is thanks largely to the fauj and its ethos.

http://nitinagokhale.blogspot.com/2011/ ... to-my.html

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby member_20069 » 13 Dec 2011 02:20

shiv wrote:
SBHALLA wrote:I agree any sane nation will not allow situation to stoop to a level where nuclear conflict becomes reality. That said do we allow things as they are and they continue to bleed us? Point being what message have we given to our adversary/ies to date that if they have a policy of violence against us it would be met with a firm response. Are we the only ones to be scared of a nuclear conflict? Is there no one in their establishment who understands and realizes that we may take a hit or two what after that? Problem is we haven't learn' t our lessons from history, when we could close Kashmir with Pakistan in 1971 we did not do then. Even now we don't have a consistent policy towards them. Left to me I would constitute a separate department in the Government that has one job and only one job and i.e. to deal with Pakistan in which ever way it is good for our country. This department should have people from HM, DEF, FO and other fields that is relevant to them when dealing with Pakistan. If they want to be friends lets walk in that direction, if "Laato Ke Bhoot Baato Se Nahi Mante" then hit them where it hurts them most. Support Baluchistan insurgency to the hilt as they do in Kashmir, pay them back in the same coin and statements that we are only extending political support, let us also do the same thing. Set up a force trained in going deep in Pakistan and pick up / destroy human targets that we can otherwise not get hold off. Have a frank talk with the genrails that if you screw around with us, we will do what we can to destroy you overtly and covertly. The other day Imran Khan said that passions get inflamed when human rights are violated by Indian Forces, are human rights not being trampled upon in Baluchistan by Pakistani forces??

Look at the type of leadership we present when we talk with Pakistan, basically all Doves dealing with Hawks. Let's make the head of Pakistan department a Jat with a lathi in his hand and then talk to them :) We need aggressive posturing towards them to send a message we mean business.

All in all message should be LOUD and CLEAR.

Not an experienced person as you are, but thought I'll pitch in my 2 cents worth knowledge apart from my feelings.

Valuable input will be much appreciated.


Bhallaji I have several quibbles with your post, but let me start with events that I was witness to in an era when I was old enough to understand. You say:
Problem is we haven't learn' t our lessons from history, when we could close Kashmir with Pakistan in 1971 we did not do then.


Where did you get the impression that we could "close Kashmir" in 1971?

That apart are you confusing Pakistan bluster with being a hawk? Why do you believe that Indians should talk to Pakistanis like Hawks and not doves? Do you think India does that out of basic cowardice and dhoti shivering or are there other things, like US support that prevented us from being aggressive with Pakistan

One of the things that makes me really angry is how my educated indian compatriots choose to have a strange sort of "dual allegiance" for both America and India. Having dual allegiance for America and India makes it easy to imagine that the anti-India actions by the US from the 1950s right up to after 2000 were merely A superpower doing its thing and the US acting in its interest" while India's inability to handle Pakistan is only Indian incompetence, and cowardice.

The minute you shed any sympathy, admiration and allegiance towards America it is easier to see that America as a wealthy superpower has consistently acted to thwart and check India's freedom of action towards Pakistan at Pakistan's instance, in order to lick Paki ass and get Pakis to help them.

Unfortunately we are such great admirers of TFTA Americans and worship Americas greatness and are contemptuous towards our cowardly dhotis. This is a typical consequence of Indian Macaulayite education. In reality the TFTA Americans are Paki ass lickers who have done much to screw India's happiness and take Indian lives while they have been ROTFL at the way slobbering admiring Indians continue to admire them while blaming their own dhotis for being "cowardly" and not dealing with Pakistan. At least a part of dhoti cowardlness is because India has not been dealing with Pakistan alone, but Pakistan+ America, and at times Pakistan+America+China.

We have actually survived all that and are growing stronger. Why are we whining so much?


Shiv Ji, I was baby when 1971 hostilities broke out, whatever I know is from what I have read from time to time, but do not have 1st hand knowledge as you may have. However, I have read something similar to what is posted in below link, kindly review the same:

http://www.samachar.com/Three-Indian-bl ... ended_news

With 93K POW (never ever captured in the history of modern warfare), with 44 Russian Divisions that the Chinese were facing and Black Sea fleet that was poised to take on 7th Fleet and Pakistan being shambles what else did we need to close Kashmir with Pakistan and set them right, once and for all. We even lost to them at negotiation post 71 war or should I say they made monkey out of us then. I know that U.S was never a friend until recently, China has always been a pain, perhaps overtly India couldn't do much, but why did our leaders not convert this moment to our advantage, why haven't we ever followed thru covert actions to their logical conclusion that India has launched against Pakistan. When I.K Gujral came he ceased Baluchistan operations, somewhere read (RAW operatives in Pakistan almost came to the heels of getting exposed). Doves negotiating all the time, no hawk has ever been prsented at negotiating table with Pakistan. ISI on the other hand has department or perhaps it only exists because of India just as PAK army does, and if you have been following Fai's case they have always worked against us with full determination with all resources at their disposal, why haven't we had such departments and determination when dealing with Porkis? Another case of belligerence or should I determination can be seen in the discussions in this program:

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-ISIs-cock ... 390883.cms

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-ISIs-cock ... 390884.cms

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 13 Dec 2011 02:56

Pakistan being shambles what else did we need to close Kashmir with Pakistan and set them right, once and for all


Lets stop these wet dreams.

Do you even understand the state of the economy in 71. The war had already cost us a fair amount. The Pakistanis in the West had not given up and more importantly their allies WERE not going to allow us to finish them.

If you look at how fierce and casualty prone the land battles were in the West you will understand how much more of a slog was left. Simply put we could not afford it - period.

its easy to have wet dreams of we could do this and that. We are not in aposition to even do that now let alone in 71.


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